Candid Conversations with Host Adrienne Barker and Special Guest Dr. Laura McGuire

Hi everyone, this is like a double day because I just had Film Florida on, John Lux, and now I get to have Dr. Laura McGuire who also spoke with a SCORE workshop which was very well attended last week. And so I know you're all saying, if you didn't watch the workshop, who is Dr. Laura McGuire? And I'm gonna have her share who she is. Take it away, Dr. McGuire.

Awesome, thank you, Adrienne. Hello, everybody.

Tell us who you are.

Yes, I am Dr. Laura McGuire. I am the founder of the National Center for Equity and Agency. And we are a consulting firm that specializes in sexual misconduct prevention and response, as well as the intersections of diversity and inclusion.

I love that. And I asked you today if we could talk about the sexual misconduct And especially because I love business. I'm all about business. It's, you know, I love SCORE and it's why I'm involved there. And I love selling logo merchandise through Halo Branded Solutions. And, you know, I have a background of what has happened and I want to talk about what that looks like for sexual misconduct in the workplace and also how you should handle it if, A, you're that person that's being approached, and B, if you're just watching and feeling awkward all the time and not knowing how to handle it. So what is your advice?

Yes. So, I mean, there's so many aspects to sexual harassment, and I think there's a lot of common misconceptions because people think of what they see in a movie or maybe a kind of a worst-case scenario that they've heard in a news story. But we have to remember that it's a continuum, right? It's a spectrum. And so there's many different things that can go on that can lead to those more extreme things, but we wanna catch it before it escalates. So really, if people are in a leadership position, it's making sure that this is an ongoing conversation that people are comfortable being open about. And that's gonna help folks who, might be dealing with something that maybe is at the beginning of that spectrum and they're thinking, should I report this? Should I say something? And am I safe to? And we wanna make sure they feel supported and believed in that. And then right now, I think with people working remotely, there's this misconception that, oh, this is not something I have to be worried about with my business 'cause everybody's kind of separated. But think about how bold people are in the comments section online. Just because people aren't face-to-face doesn't mean they're not going to say awful things or create a hostile work environment. So this is something we definitely have to keep our eyes on.

Well, how would a company— if you have a president of a company that has sexually exploited female employees, and not just once, but twice, maybe 3 times, how does the company actually teach sexual harassment training and how do you even have a discussion because the person that they would go to is the guilty party?

Yes. And that's very common where we'll say, obviously you should be reporting this, but a lot of times the person that they'd be reporting to is either friends with or is directly the person who is causing harm. I mean, ideally you have someone separate that could be reported to. So an HR manager, somebody who is in a separate role that can take those reports and is in a position where they're not afraid of somebody who might be above them and be causing this harm. There should be those kind of separations of power. Sometimes there really aren't. And in that case, I mean, if there's any kind of board of directors, you might want to go to them. Sometimes it's whistleblowing publicly if it comes down to that, right? If there's no one in the organization that you can report to that's going to listen to you and believe you, it might be going to the news media trying to get some kind of change done. But we see this a lot with small organizations or extremely insular ones. We see this also with the military, right, where there's a chain of command and you can't just jump above somebody usually. And again, those power structures become really tricky. There's no easy answer is what I'm saying, but there's a lot of different options to explore.

What if, what if, what if, have you ever heard where the person that's doing the offending turns around and says, well, they're a predator, like the opposite, whatever, whoever that was, whether it's opposite sex, same sex, doesn't even matter, whatever that the person in a high leadership role has— and maybe it's, you know, it's sex, sex, so it's not rape, it's actually just having— what is it called when you're having, um, sex? Uh, what is that called? The word begins with a C, right?

A consensual relationship.

But then afterwards, after they're caught, turns around and blames the female in this case for being the one that actually So I heard, like, with stories of like, oh no, she's the predator. I'm not the predator. She came on to me. She's just trying to destroy my life. She's the one that knew that I'm married, and even though she was married, I've had to deal with her. Is that even— have you ever heard of that before, where that's turned around?

Oh yes, that's actually— that's a common thing that we see in the victim advocacy community. We actually study this, right, which is like of reversing victimization as a way to kind of try to protect their reputation, their— how they're seen by their community, right? This is super common. This is one of the first things that's usually done. If somebody speaks out, that person who's being accused of something will immediately say, "Well, I'm the real victim here because I'm innocent." Or like you're saying, maybe they say, "Okay, it was a consensual relationship." me and, you know, like, you know, they came on to me or whatnot. So number one, kind of expect that. I think if we understand that that's common narrative, then we know, okay, this person is probably going to try to reverse this, you know, and believing victims because we know that false reports, while they do happen, are extremely rare. We have something called meta-analysis where we take multiple studies and see what the findings overlap and come to a common conclusion on. And when we look at meta-analysis of false reporting, we know that at least 95% of all reports are true. False reports maybe hover around for adults 5% and 1% for children. So this cultural expectation of kind of not believing people at first or trying to find a hole in their story or trying trying to find a way that we can discredit them is completely backwards. And so yeah, we have to start by looking at that and changing that.

So the sexual behavior, and I've got to even use the word if it's okay, deviant behavior, will it even ever end? I mean, if you go to one and then you do two, is there a stopping point or is it, can you just get away with it? Especially if the employees maybe are still in the business so they haven't, they haven't left. And maybe, you know, who knows if there's a grand payment or a free credit card they have. Like, we don't know. But does it ever stop? I mean, if someone loses that kind of control— I've never been— I'm gonna be honest, I've never been like so like sexually like crazy, like I gotta have it now. Like, I've always been kind of a prude about sex. Like, if there's conversations going in the room that are sexual, I get like really red in the face and I kind of go internal. I don't, I don't like that kind of talk in front of me. I don't know why, I'm just a little prude and I have to like at 58 kind of like get it right, like I just feel it. But so it's even weird for me to talk about it, but I'm like, does it just stop like all of a sudden? Because to do it in the first place, I think that when I read these stories, to me is so shocking that I can't seem to— like, is there no— like Jeffrey Epstein, he couldn't stop. You know, Weinstein couldn't stop. And I honestly, I am guilty too, Dr. Laura, of thinking to myself, oh, if I wanted a career in, you know, on television, there's the casting couch. Like, we growing up with that, I didn't know that that was actually wrong because it felt like it was part of what was taking place. So is that part of it? Like, oh, okay, I am the president, I'm able to do what I can do, nobody could stop me. So I might as well just do it. And then I get away with it once, twice. My wife's staying with me, so she's not upset with me. Or my husband's staying with me, he's not upset with me. And yet, so what are the chances it would even continue?

Yeah, I mean, the reality is when people have a pattern of predatory behavior, no, they're not going to stop unless somebody stops them. Right. And that is one of the reasons, of course, people have to completely decide if reporting, whether it's to the police or to HR, is right for them. But one of the benefits of reporting is it does have the potential to create even a track record of people reporting this person, right? Versus you don't, the chance that you're the only victim is extremely rare. It's, I would honestly say, it is basically impossible. There are gonna be other victims, whether it's currently or in the future. Like you're saying, do these people ever stop? They don't stop because it's not, it's not a sexual preference. It's not like a kink or just a general desire. It is really a mental issue, illness for many different reasons of wanting to abuse and control people, right? It's not about sexual satisfaction. It's not about pleasure. It's about this is a way that I can really break somebody, that I can control them, that I can own them, that I can take away their power. And that's what it's about. right? It's not just, oh, you know, this is, this is something I enjoy. When it's not consensual and there's power dynamics at play, then it is, you know, about abuse. And so we want to make sure that we understand that. And like you said, a lot of times people don't report or they just deal with things for a long time because they think this is just life or this is just working in this industry. Or, you know, coming up in this business, it's just what I have to deal with. Everyone deals with it. And in some ways, right, there's truth to that, that that's become part of our culture and many cultures around the world through history. But we also get to decide if we need to change that script, if that's no longer something we're going to accept. And we just get to say collectively, you know what, this has been the way it's been, but it doesn't have to continue if we don't want it to. Does that make sense?

It does, it does. And I, and I, when I read these kind of stories and hear about them, or, or, you know, even live with through it, the complicity of so many other people that know what's going on and yet will stand by and also defend, will also say— because it's not just the, the predator that would say, oh, uh, she was after me, but also the people around. They have to almost make— give themselves a way that they can communicate and still play in the sandbox with this person. So they almost kind of like are losing a little bit of their soul in my mind.

Yes, yes, I think that's a really powerful way of putting it. When we are complicit, when we are bystanders who just let things happen, it damages all of us, right? We know that we could be next. We know that, again, we are part of the problem. I think one of the things that's important to remember on any issue of harassment or violence or oppression, there's no neutral option. You don't get to say, well, I wasn't the one actively harassing someone, or I wasn't the one actively being sexist, racist, ableist, whatever. I'm good. That doesn't really exist. Either you are actually supporting the person who's doing wrong, you are the person who's doing wrong, or you're actively working against it and standing up. For what's right. And so there's really no middle ground. We have to decide to sometimes be the unpopular person, be the person that people roll their eyes at, but be the one that also anyone who is a victim knows is a safe person to go to. Right?

Yeah. So another question I have is that, so you— why are these kind of coming up like Why do they trend? Like in 2016, it really felt it trended with the, um, oh, I'm just so bad with the names of the woman, uh, from Fox News. Oh yes, right, Fox News. And then we started seeing Good Morning Show did a great job on Apple really addressing a story. I don't know if it was fiction or real or could be both. Um, I think they did it, they said it wasn't really, you know, uh, the truth, but, but And then it slows down and then it like dies down and you don't hear and then it picks back up.

Why is that? Well, I think there's kind of two folds to that, right? There's the media's attention on it and then there's people feeling solidarity and that they can talk about something for the first time. So there's kind of those two aspects. One, the media always has a news cycle, right? There's gonna always be things that are popular and things that kind of wane and they're not interested in covering anymore. And so I think for us as consumers, we have to be aware that even if something isn't currently all over the news, all over our newsfeed on social media, that it doesn't mean the issue went away, right? It just means whatever, their attention's turned to something else. On the other hand, we will often see these kind of tidal waves around movements because when one person speaks up, it causes other people to speak up. And again, that's another reason to be vocal, to talk about these things, to report, is that it will empower others. And like we saw, whether it's within an organization, one person speaks up, oh my gosh, now there's 10 people talking about the same problem. Or it's just kind of collective consciousness. Globally, people start speaking up, wow, all these other people say, since you mentioned this, now I feel empowered to also talk about my experience. So that's, yeah, that's just a common thing. And it's the positive aspect of bystander intervention too, right? We talk about the bystander effect being that if no one does anything, then kind of collectively we all just stand there and say, man, somebody should do something, you know, and we stay still. But the good part of it is if one person does the right thing, it also causes a group of people to do the right thing. And so one person stands up, all of a sudden 10 people stand up for what's right.

That's interesting. I also want to talk about bullying in the workplace and then also mobbing when it's more than one person that's doing it. And how can we— because— and I think that unfortunately we may hear that more. And I don't know remotely if people working remotely makes it happen more. But how would you address if someone came to you and asked you for help that they're part of or witnessing bullying and then mobbing in the workplace?

Yes. Oh, I mean, I think again, that's a very common issue that we don't talk about enough, that bullying doesn't end with elementary school or high school. It goes on and on. The same bullies you had in kindergarten will be the bullies you have at work. A lot of times they don't learn their lesson and the cycle just repeats. So, you know, if people are dealing with that, or again, even observing someone else going through it and it's not directly impacting them, but they're seeing it, it, again, it really is the same thing. It's talking about it, it's trying to report it, it's trying to, you know, make something a big deal. I think one of the issues with any of these topics is that we don't want to, you know, stir things up. We don't want to be the squeaky wheel. We don't want to, you know, make people upset with us. We just want to get along. We want to go to work and we want to be peaceful. We feel like if I bring up that that's really hurtful or I feel ganged up on or I feel left out and this is wrong, then am I just going to make it worse for myself? You know, I certainly don't want to do that. So I think it's understanding that you should speak up. And then secondly, if you see other people going through something, you should not stand by and just, you know, shake your head and say, oh, that's too bad for them. You should say is, what can we do about this? I see what's going on with you and it's not right, and I want you to know you have my support.

Now we have 5 generations in the workplace, maybe even more now that it's such a spread, and the traditionalists, the older, sometimes they— I think it's habit for them to be very touchy and hands-on and, you know, close and getting into your personal space. And, you know, we watch it happen. And then also it could be that you have someone, a traditionalist, doing it to someone in their 20s who would be called Generation Y?

Z.

Z. Oh yeah, Z for Xanax. That's right. Sorry, that's how I think about it. But, um, because I mean, really, not that I take Xanax, but my gosh, when you have that age, you kind of need a little Xanax. But anyways, just Just varying off of that. But the reality is, is that they're put in a tough situation, right? They're 20 years old, they're just starting in the workplace. And the traditionalist, it doesn't mean to do anything wrong, but yet has been in the business world for so long that hugging and touching and all of that is just natural, like they would do to their own child. And they feel, okay, this 20-year-old reminds me of my daughter or son. And continues to do that. What do we do? Because I have no clue. When I watch it, it makes me uncomfortable, but then I don't know what to do. Yeah, should we talk to a 20-year-old? Should we, should we have a conversation with a 20-year-old to give the 20-year-old tips that you'll tell us now on how that person can walk away from it and, and kind of how, what they do?

Yeah, no, that's, that's a great question. It's very complicated because Whether it's generational divide, like you're talking about, it can also be cultural, right? We have different expectations about boundaries, what's appropriate to say, what's not. Like you're saying, what kind of greeting and touch is normal to one person and scary or uncomfortable to somebody else, right? And I think it's a couple of things. It really does come back a lot to education, both educating people on, again, differences and how to communicate boundaries and how to kind of always err on the side of being more cautious, right? We don't want to just say, well, I'm okay with this, but, you know, not care about if it's actually okay for the other person. One of the things I often refer to is the difference between the golden rule and platinum rule. So the golden rule is, you know, do unto others as you would have done unto you. So it's again, thinking if I'm okay with this, then it's okay for them. The Platinum Rule goes beyond that, and that is do unto others as they would have done unto them, right? Doing that kind of emotional work of checking in and saying, what other boundaries might someone else have? Should I ask them before I give them a hug? Should I, you know, pause before I make an expectation that something I'm going to say is going to be taken as a compliment, where to somebody else it could feel predatory? Putting yourself in the other person's shoes instead of just saying, well, if this is good for me, then that's enough. So I think it is a lot of education around these things, which is why I do what I do.

And you're saving money with companies if you work with them. A store wouldn't open the door, put a speed bump right when you walk in, and then say, okay, come on in, and everyone's tripping on the way in, and that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. But isn't all of this a lawsuit waiting to happen, whether it's sexual in nature or it's bullying in nature or just innocently touching someone with, you know, and making them feel uncomfortable along with everyone else? So can you share the importance of the training? And then by law, what is the training by law? Because I'm confused with that too, or at least the state of Florida.

Yes. So I mean, you're right. Laws vary a lot, just to kind of address that. There's usually— you have to really pay attention because your city might have different expectations. This changes all the time. So it's important to make sure that you are up to date wherever you are on what those requirements are. Some states have a requirement for a certain number of live, in-person training on sexual harassment every year. Even for businesses visiting that state. So—

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, even businesses visiting that state?

Yes, yes.

Can you give me an example?

Can I get an example? So I forget the exact requirement for like how long you have to be in the state and how many hours it is, but like for example, New York passed 2 years ago a law that even for businesses doing work in New York State, even if they're not located there, they have to have a certain number of hours of in-person training on sexual harassment. And there, I think Illinois has something similar and so does California. But again, I'm not a lawyer and I don't pretend to be, so I'm not gonna give everybody legal advice on those statutes. But know that you do have to pay attention to them, right? Because if you're not aware of what's going on, then you really could get in trouble. But yes, these things can be a lawsuit waiting to happen. But the other important thing for people to remember is the research that we have on kind of the general guidelines on the millions of dollars that businesses lose every year in sexual harassment cases is not due to legal fees. It's due to high turnover, low productivity, and just time generally taken away because of stress from working in a hostile environment. So a lot of times people will just say, well, we just have to hire lawyers, or we just have to hire people who work in HR and have a legal background to keep us in compliance. But they're not addressing the cultural issue that is actually going to hit their bottom line the hardest. It's those very subliminal things that are going on that are creating a work environment that just isn't going to be sustainable both financially and culturally.

Is there a definition of hostile environment, your hostile workplace, that is just like one definition that people can use? Whew.

That's tough. That's like a huge conversation, right? Because it is very subjective. Usually, like legally, there's the reasonable person standard, which is saying, would a reasonable person find this hostile, right? But again, what I would define as hostile and what you would define as hostile and what 20 other people would define as hostile can be very different. I think it, for me, it really comes down to, are you creating an environment that lacks in emotional intelligence, right? In empathy. If people don't feel like, you know, their concerns are being listened to, if they feel like their identity, their lifestyle, their culture is something that's joked about at that workplace, that they feel like they can't just walk around freely and focus on their work every day, but instead have to worry about, again, comments, cruelty, a lack of emotional intelligence and awareness. All of those things are the things you should be paying attention to, right? Because those are going to be your red flags that a hostile work environment may be where you're either going or currently are.

Interesting.

All right.

Now I want to, I want you to sell yourself. I want to have, so, so how are you? So you're going to, who is your ideal client and how can you help businesses have this conversation, which is needed in 2020 and moving on with— I mean, I thought the riots kind of had gone away a little bit. Looks like things have picked up again. So companies now need to protect themselves. And so can you sell yourself right now? I know that's like kind of like awkward, but because I want people— I want the businesses that I know to understand why, when, how, what, where to contact you and what that looks like.

Yeah, definitely. My ideal client really is any organization that is passionate and dedicated to doing this work, right? A non-ideal client would be somebody who just wants a one-and-done training to say, oh, check the box and moving on, right? Because I really try to work with organizations that want to look critically and honestly at what's going on on that want to make things better, that want to do that long-term. Too often, you know, people will say, oh yeah, we've already addressed this because 2 years ago we had a speaker come in for an hour. Okay. Or we do an online training and they click through this video and they answer questions at the end. You know, that's not going to solve anything. So if that's, if that's someone's answer, I'm not a good fit for them. If they want to, a lot of times I do a survey an analysis over what the employees are reporting, what their concerns are. I customize onsite trainings or Zoom trainings around that. And then I try to do some executive coaching with their leadership around a strategic plan of what are we gonna do about this long-term? How are you gonna continue to address this past just the trainings themselves? How are you gonna shift your company's culture? And if people wanna learn more about this, you can reach out to me at my email address for the organization is Here to Serve at equityandagency.com. Our website is equityandagency.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn at Dr. Laura McGuire.

I love it. Thank you so, so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. And I look forward to keeping in touch with you. And I hope to do a second workshop so that we can continue the conversation. Thank you, Dr. Laura. What a pleasure meeting you and talking to you today. Thank you so much.

Bye-bye.

Thank you. Bye-bye.