Embracing Diverse Thinking in Education and Workforce

These look okay, I guess. Okay everyone, so I think this is the 6th interview today, but I'm not even sure, I can't count. Okay, transparency, I know Michelle Raz. Michelle's incredible, amazing guest on Dr. Joey Show. I still love that, um, interview. Michelle, I want you to introduce yourself. I don't want to mess it up and I don't want to cry, but you, you changing lives every day, so Share with us everything. I want to hear everything.

Okay, well, so yeah, I am Michelle Raz, founder of Raz Coaching Services. You're like, okay, what the heck does that mean? So in a nutshell, I help neurodivergent individuals at every age with executive functioning challenges. It's like, wow, what is that? And so This is something that I've grown into for many years. Actually, I could even debate, I did an interview recently and just talked about my own father who was undiagnosed neurodivergent. And if I piece all the pieces today together and look at him, this brilliant, brilliant man, he was neurodivergent and absolutely extraordinary, very misunderstood and masked a lot throughout his life. Fast forward to my own children, and it was apparent then my oldest was diagnosed with ADHD at a time when there was not much out there on the internet, and I was digging in as a parent trying to help her, and it just, it opened up this world to me that has been my passion since then. And honestly, I was groomed at a young age to understand the value that being neurodivergent brings, and yet the struggles that each people— person that has a different way of thinking, whether you are high functioning on the autism, ADHD, anxiety, depression, all these different things that affect your ability to operate at your highest level, your highest potential. And the umbrella of the challenges are executive functioning skills. And so I've dedicated my life to developing frameworks that help have people live to their fullest potential, whether you're in a corporate setting and you're showing up every day and masking, going home and being exhausted. Because if they knew what was really, you know, your struggle and how you show up— and I've had clients, you know, hiring assistants on the side just so they can get the hustle of what they're faced forward with in their C-level roles in a company to people that never, never realized their potential because they struggled so much in high school, they dropped out, or they tried college and they dropped out. And then they didn't have the confidence in them to mine their strengths to be able to live to their fullest potential, which also got me to help write a book with the help of a dear, dear friend, Wilma Feldman, years ago called Happiness, Passion and Purpose. And so my overarching mission in all of my subsidiaries, which I'm excited to talk about, is really about living a life that is your purpose, your passion, that creates happiness, where you're able to give to the world your gifts despite whatever challenges that you have. And so this framework that I developed really helps out whether you are a young student, an adult going back to school, you're at a corporate level, you're right out of school, trying to figure out what the heck you want to do and you face these executive function challenges?

Have you seen Lessons in Chemistry?

Yeah.

So it was the first time watching it that I said to myself, wow. First I was like, are they neurodivergent? Like, right after the first episode. And then I Googled it. Of course, I'm like, oh my God. Okay, I'm getting this. After it was over, I realized, you know, I always felt, I always felt with my, my brother and my sister that they were just so emotionally intelligent, right? They really— and I always just felt like such a dummy. And then after watching that, it kind of hit me, you know, Adrian, you're not a dummy. You're just— you are— I'm neurodivergent too, and like how I think is a little different, and, and I don't understand the big things sometimes. So It made me realize I'm okay. And I almost wish I had that growing up, that I could have understood. So I have a question for you. And you know, my daughter Alana has learning disabilities. And we had a neighbor downstairs and the neighbor was like, you know, why is your daughter not working? She's 18 years old. She should be working. And it was like the way he was talking to her. And I'm like, so finally I said to him, my daughter is a little neurodivergent. Do you not understand that? So How do you help the person that is going through it, the executive challenges and the functions, how do you help the people around them to know? And I'm actually talking personally because my husband has a traumatic brain injury and it's similar, and I never know how to handle it myself. So could you share that with us?

Oh my goodness, yes, I can. How much time do we have today? 15 minutes. Right. You know, I developed a course, and well, it's actually a training for trainers. That is a beautiful way to help this. And, and I've actually just recently did a parent workshop for a group of parents that came and said, can you please sit with us for a couple hours and talk to us to help us with our children? And then I have corporations reaching out saying, OK, we want to retain our employees. We want to understand their strengths. We don't want people to quit. We really want these services. We provide a great EAP, but they're not utilizing them because of, you know, they're, they're the shame that comes up, the fear that they're going to get exposed. And so it's a passion of mine to get out there and spread the word to everybody so they understand. And first of all, so in this program that I developed is one, you understanding what it is, what, what are executive functioning challenges and what type of challenge are they faced with. So neurodivergence is a broad term these days, and I hinted towards it earlier, whether you're on the autism spectrum, You have ADHD, you have— it's a whole umbrella of things. And so understand what it is, understand specifically how it presents itself in your home, in work, and at school. So knowledge is power, we all know that, right? And so start with that, know what the diagnosis is. Even if they don't have a diagnosis, I go in and say— and I don't say here's the diagnosis to look out for. It's really the, the consequence of whatever challenge they have as far as a diagnosis, or maybe they're undiagnosed but they really are struggling with executive functioning challenges. And so understanding what those are—time management, organization, short-term memory, emotional regulation—that's where I like to start with. And so by understanding what they are challenged with, Every single person has a different level of challenge within those executive functioning skills. Um, know that person, know what it is, write it down, journal it. You'll see a pattern. And I'd like to start with the emotional regulation piece of it because you can, if you can identify what is their triggers, where do they get overwhelmed and shut down and then they appear disrespectful and rude, but really it's because they don't know how to process, they don't have coping skills, Okay, so let's go back and look at some coping skills. And so, and of course, a lot of our clients, most of them have a therapist or psychiatrist, and those are great places to unpack those. And then you can come forward with those skills and try to introduce new skills to help that person manage whatever the challenge is. Emotion regulation is, you know, kind of a hallmark, because if you are dysregulated, anything you do, you can't talk to that person, you can't reason with them. And that's why you'll hear therapists say, you know, go cool off, go for a walk, and and then come back. Um, understand that in that person. That's my big— my biggest thing. And so, like, with your daughter, going back to her, for whatever reasons she's not working, um, you know, know those reasons and know what the end goal is for her. What is her goal? What does she want? What is— I should say, what is her potential? What does she feel her potential is? And if she doesn't see the potential, start to unravel where her strengths lie. So all of my programs are strength-based. Like for you, Adrian, you are an amazing, exuberant, quick thinker, out-of-the-box thinker, connector and promoter of people. You are human-centric. And so whatever your challenges are behind that, you bring forward that strength. And your weaknesses, you know, whatever. And we all have weaknesses, right? But you can help manage those weaknesses. And so as a caregiver or parent or a boss, we want to hone in on why— if it's a boss, why did you hire them? What is their strengths? You know, if you're a student, what are they amazing at in the classroom, in academics, and at home? You know, for a child or a partner or a husband, what is their strength? And really play to that. And then let's be a problem solver with the challenges and not focus on those. Like, we just— yeah, okay, yeah, there— with today's society, there's so much help, there's so many great apps out there, there are so many workarounds that you can really focus on what you do best and really soar. And, and this— I'm going— you're getting me down a rabbit hole here, you know. I'm— this is what I do, this is my jam. Um, so what— whatever your— their strength is in general, that the clients that I work with This is the beautiful part about being neurodivergent. Your highs, what you're good at, is really, really good. And what you're bad at is usually like, ah, okay, I really need help here. This is like we say neurotypical. Well, we all have our ups and downs, they're just smaller, right? And you can manage the high, the, you know, the strengths and the weaknesses better. But when you're neurodivergent, man, you're amazing. And these are the people that are brilliant, that are doing amazing things. And if we can look at what they do really great and harness that and then support them and the weaknesses, it's going to change our world. It's going to be— these are the people that are the out-of-the-box thinkers, the nonlinear thinkers that think it through their lens is so different. They— what they're good at, what they're interested in, their perception. I can guarantee if you're sitting out there and you know somebody, whatever they're good at, they're amazing at, and you're like, holy cow, wow, we need to package that. Well, do package it and don't worry about the weaknesses. Have a strategy and have support around that. Anyway, I could go on forever.

I love this. I do think with shows like Lessons in Chemistry that it helps. After I realized that, I'm like, oh my God, we need more shows like this that actually kind of give you that perspective of the best. I have a question for you. So Alana has dyscalculia. I kind of wonder if I do too. Would that be considered— so that is like a math disorder, right?

Dysgraphia, dyscalculia, dyslexia, those would all be falling under neurodivergence because out of that struggle, she has a different way of looking at things and she had to develop a skill to survive what does work for her. And she's probably— I don't even know her, but she probably is really amazing at whatever she had to develop to be able to work in a nonlinear world for her dyscalculia. You said dyscalculia, right?

Dyscalculia. Oh, maybe you're saying it right. I would go with what you're saying. But I never had her tested though, so I'm thinking, and I don't know how important it is to actually test, but what she's really good at is actually like organization. But I do find— I'm, I'm not sure why my husband is on the screen, but he just waved to him. Hi, hi, Al. Yeah, you're right, I have to— even that, like, how I told him today what I was doing, but it's okay, it's live. I— so my daughter has a lot of anxiety. My husband's turning on the fan because somehow he must think I'm hot. So I'm hot looking, Alan, but not hot like hot. This is what I love about you, Adrian.

Yes. Cold. I don't know.

He just comes in to turn the fan on. I thought you were hot.

Look at you. He's— he loves me.

But anyway, so this comes with a lot of anxiety, right? So how do you work with that anxiety? Does it almost go hand in hand?

Boy, I'm just sitting here like, oh, yes, yes, yes. I would say that 90% of the clients that I work with, really struggle with anxiety. Depression is right there too. So anxiety is extremely important because when, when you are perceived as something as a challenge, you don't have the solution to it. You don't— you haven't had enough practice with it. You know, there's a block, right? And so if you can peel back the layers and identify where that anxiety is. Where do they feel it in them? What is it, real or perceived? And if they feel supported and they have a framework to be able to identify it and problem solve it with an action, um, that will help with the— with that anxiety. And it's, it's not something you can just tell them to do. They need to be walked through the process. And this is why my coaching services, or the, you know, since 2010, it was so effective because we have a framework to follow to help them. And so it takes time and practice, and over time and practice of doing this, then they can get this feeling that anything they do— we're all going to have anxiety. So, you know, anxiety can also fuel us, right? It could be a positive to a certain extent. And so being able to identify that and see if it's a real— you know, what's the reality of this anxiety. Where is it coming from? Unpack that with somebody so that the next time they have that issue, they have tools to be able to work through it. And of course, you know, coaching really helps, or a mentor, or somebody that understands, you know. So it can be the parent. It can be an informed, educated parent that understands the process, the framework. It can be an employer that's trusted, where they know that they're not going to be judged I mean, I can't tell you how many clients find me and they do not want to put a recommendation out there. They don't want to talk about because of their level of professionalism, which is really sad. We all need help. But anyway, is they need that safe place, that somebody that understands them to unpack it. And that's why it's so important for us as parents, as educators, as employers to look at this, this group in different— and our lens be changed on how we view it. And it really starts by honing in on what they are really good at. Yeah, we all have anxiety of things that we don't think we're good at, right? And but yet, you're forced to do it. What about—

so, right, that's interesting. And then my daughter realized that she— her perfectionism was getting too much. But what, what, so what do you offer? So you have Thrive, sir, right? And then, and then grouping. Yeah, I want to hear.

Yeah, so we have— so here, here's what I'm, we have now, or I do in Raz Coaching Services, which you'll see right down there. And if you go, if you follow me on LinkedIn, that's really where you'll see a lot of my involvement in. But I have Raz Coaching, which is my corporate career development. And then my flagship was actually is Coaching Academics, and then also two new ones coming online I'm really excited about, which is Thriving Beyond Therapy. A lot of our clients come into us and that are either in therapy, they're in treatment, and they need a next step. How do I utilize these tools and stay accountable to the program? So they've already done all this work, now they're back into their day-to-day lives and how can they, you know, use those tools and be consistent and don't fall off that, that great momentum they already had. So there's that one. And then also Sprout Coach, which is my newest one that is, um, for younger parents and children. Oh, oh, oh, that, that's interesting to me.

Do you think that like in today's world, the, the, the, the internet, the phone, the everything going on, the news, just like everything that, that more of, more of us are, are dealing with this. Like, is it environmental too?

You know, um, good point. Or has it always been there and now people are coming forward because of social media? That, you know what happens, right, when we— somebody comes forward and they are a role model and they're, they're saying, hey, you know what, this wasn't always easy for me, I, or this was hard but I made it a gift and now I'm famous, I'm wealthy, I've, I've broken through. And when we have leaders like that that come out and more more, I think people are getting the confidence to say, okay, I'm a little different, but that's cool. I can be different. And here's what I'm really good at. And yeah, I use this app for my banking because I have dyscalculia, you know, whatever it is that you have, you have a tool for it. So I do think that social media is a big part of it. And I think we're understanding it more. I mean, you peel back the layers of school way, way, way ago. Those— if you didn't fit that mold, right, traditional education, right, what was that for? Traditional education was for to create people that could follow rules and take directions in an economy that was factory workers. So we weren't wanting out-of-the-box thinkers, right? We wanted people to be able to conform to the structure that was going to put them into the workforce, which was at the time manufacturing and whatnot. And so if you look at the history of education right now, that was kind of the history from way back when. And we don't, we don't need that. We need out-of-the-box thinkers. We need that nonlinear thinking. And so I think that if you didn't fit that mold back then, as parents, parents were shamed. Well, it must be my bad parenting. They can't follow the rules, or they don't understand. They can't fit in the box into society. And so we have to have all the support with them to get them to mold to the rules. And we now need We need problem solvers. We've got climate issues. We've got, you know, financial issues. We need people that can problem solve. We don't need people that need to follow behind the line anymore. And so I think it's an opportunity now to celebrate the diversity of thinking and to be able to find ways to help people that don't fit that traditional role. And then maybe they really do have, have some disabilities, but they're extremely valuable in other areas. And we can customize, individualize our workforce. And therefore, people, I think, have more tendency to come out. Now, I will tell you, we still get people, I've just got diagnosed, I knew it my whole life, but I'm, you know, I'm coming forward now. And it's, they still carry that, that shame, the baggage of, wow, that was so hard for me. And I, it really affected my self-esteem. I never thought I could be anything because all I ever told was I did it wrong, or how could I change? I couldn't be different. They didn't— they, you know, whatever their gift was, it wasn't developed to their fullest potential because they spent so much time and energy trying to fit in. And I think it's, you know, I'm part of a global movement, by the way. I'm just gonna do a plug for the Octopus Movement. If you're neurodivergent out there, get involved. I'm a founding member. Um, You can find it on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find that on LinkedIn, but get involved. There's some amazing people out there. They're absolutely brilliant and they have some sad stories and some really tough stories, but they also are ones that kind of broke the ceiling. So anyway, I hope I answered that. Is it fake? No, there's even research trying to tie biological roots to it. If you're truly neurodivergent, you know you've struggled and you know how hard it is, but you also know there's— you're different and what you're good at, you're amazing at. And so a true person that's neurodivergent or ADHD, I hear it all the time, there's real challenges. You can have an ADHD moment. We use terms very loosely, right? I'm so OCD, I'm ADHD or ADD, that we water that down. But that person, that kind of does a disservice to that person that truly is challenged with it. And they've had a lifetime of trying to mask to fit into the world the way we've had it in the past. So anyway, I'm all about the future and really celebrating those differences. I can't even thank you enough.

It's interesting, and my daughter is dating a young man who's so smart, and so he's on the spectrum, very high, right? Like incredibly smart. I mean, I could ask him questions, but it's so funny because sometimes he'll look at something And then he'll walk away. And then I'm like, wait, don't you need that in front of you to, like, like— he's like, no, I remember what it is. And I'm like, how did I— so, like, like, getting out of our own brain to see, like, what he's really good at. But he also said when we took him out to eat, he doesn't really like the restaurants because he can hear every conversation. Right. And that's so interesting. And then when we were on our trip, my daughter and I, on our 4-month road trip, we met a lovely young man who was telling us he can't forget anything. So everything is a memory and that it's a good thing. And then he shared a cute story of how it's not a great thing too. So I hope that we do need more lessons on understanding this. Me too. Um, the group I love. I think Alana would really enjoy that. She's not— she's young adult, just will be 18 actually in another week and a half. And she's trying to find her own. I won't be with her for her 18th birthday because she wants that independence. Because I think I've always been kind of like helicoptering her and helping her to transition things. Yes, the transitions are—

that's one of my favorite ages. I have a whole coaching program just for transitioning from, say, high school to college or high school to vo-tech or just out of high school trying to find their journey. There's a lot of movements around here, the uncollege movement as well. And it's just, you know, we're coming to a society that's individualized and customized, and that's the way it should be. But that age group, of, okay, what now? I mean, it's, you know, the, the oyster, you know, the world's our oyster, that, that cliché. Um, it really is if you can tap into their strengths. And, um, so, you know, reach out to me for her. I'll give you some tips. I will, I will.

We all need this. This is such important— you're doing great work, Michelle.

It's my passion. I want everybody to be the best possible version of themselves. I truly walk that talk. That's actually been how I even stumbled into this, besides my own family background, is I always looked at a person and say, wow, the potential there if they just do this. Then I would, I could just see the path for them. That's my gift. I can just take this person and say, here's your strengths, now go with it here. I think that has to do with growing up with a neurodivergent father who was brilliant. But he lacked some social skills. And, you know, let's talk about that first just a second. That's very common for the clients that we work with, is that the social miscues, raising self-awareness. And we have tools and tricks, and there's great programs out there. I have my own method with, you know, in the framework that I do that helps them and gives them constant feedback. It's not something you can just say, hey, read this book and do it. You need to actually practice it. And that's why I say that my programs are all like boots on the ground, and it takes time. I always, I say this a lot, you know, it takes 66.7 days to form a habit, right? And so you can't just— this is why, you know, New Year's Eve goals and whatnot, they just go by the wayside. But with accountability, you can stick to that goal. And I always say it's a minimum 3 months, you know, just right up to 90 days, so that when you have a routine, a structure with a routine, accountability, it can become a habit over, you know, that 90 days. And so you can take something that is a weakness perceived, real or perceived, and, and if that's a goal individually and work on that over time, you can see change. And, you know, they will have a much easier time integrating into society, especially with interpersonal skills. So there's just a lot of work around that, and there's some amazing programs out there. And I'm talking about, you know, high-functioning people in the workplace. They, you know, they know they're quirky, and they've got some weaknesses around some of this, you know, social-emotional stuff. And, you know, there's a lot that can be done.

Amazing. Okay, so I want to, I want to just put a shout out to anyone. If you are a podcast host, book Michelle, because to have her— no, seriously, because Michelle will share with your audience. The key is to get this out there to understand. And of course, it's important to me because of my daughter, my situation with my husband, but I want everyone, any host out there, podcast host, book Michelle. She's an amazing speaker, as you could tell. Michelle, you and I do have to have a conversation outside. It's like 24/7. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for just doing what you're doing. I love having you on the show. We'll touch base. So we actually have to have a next conversation. But thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you. Thanks, Michelle.