Emotional Needs Driving Overspending Behaviors

Hi everyone. Okay, so this is the last one of the day. So Marianne could be a couple hours. Marianne, I don't know Marianne. Marianne doesn't know me. I think from maybe Need a Guest or one of the groups on Facebook. But I'm looking, I'm like, Marianne, are you a spending coach?

Yes.

Marianne said yes. Marianne, I— and I'm not a spender. I want— like, I'm not someone that likes— I don't buy myself, you know, luxurious things. But money, like, I feel like I, I need to have a better understanding of money. So I'm really interested in understanding like a spending coach, what that looks like. And I love vacation. So I notice is like when I go away on vacation, I'll say, well, it's one time. Oh, it's just one time. And I want to do the best. I want to spend more money than I could think of. So let me just give you the— I can't even. I'm so excited. Okay, so everyone, here's Maryann. She's going to introduce herself. I am literally going to be all ears. Go ahead, Marianne, take it away.

Sure. Well, thanks for having me, first of all. And as was said, I'm a spending coach and I became a spending coach out of necessity. I found myself in a tricky situation where I went from working full-time to part-time to then stay-at-home mom. And then my part-time job as a speech-language pathologist, I ended up having to stop due to chronic health issues. And so during this time of two young kids, chronic illness, depression, OCD, just no family support available, it was really, really a trying, difficult time. And my coping was spending and shopping. And I really got— I wouldn't say addicted, but I definitely wasn't in control of my spending. And I tried every kind of budget, everything out there, and it didn't work. And so I really wanted to understand why shopping felt like such a need, why they say, oh, it's, it's either a want or need. And I was like, well, for me it feels like a need no matter what I buy. And so I really wanted to understand that. Why for some people is overspending and overshopping difficult? Why is overeating difficult for people? Like, what is the root cause of overspending? And when I did my own research, I was shocked to find that there is a psychology behind spending and nobody talks about it, which I think is just so sad because we've got to get to the root issue, the root cause, and solve the problem, not just put a Band-Aid over it. And so that's how I became a spending coach, uncovering the psychology of why we buy so that everyone can become unshoppable.

I like a million and a half questions going through my head. I do want to say that when it comes to spending, I don't actually like the guilty feeling I get when I spend something that I shouldn't. So I think I've learned along the way at age 61, finally, that I think twice, like, is this going to make me feel like yucky? And then I want to return it and I had buyer's beware and I'm not going to feel proud of myself for doing it. And so that does stop me, but it takes some talking to do. So share with us, like, how do people even recognize this with themselves? Or is it usually like the partner is like, hey, why am I getting a credit card bill that's like $30,000? What's happening here?

Right. And it's a combination of both things. For me, it was all the things. I was saying for years and years, oh, I should stop spending. I should do better. I should, should, should. And nothing ever really changed. My husband was so kind and supportive, and he would always approach it by saying, we need to do better at our spending, instead of you need to do better with your spending. So he was very kind, and he understood that I was trying. And so for me, I just kept trying different budgets, and they didn't work. And the thing that got me to stop— because I tried budgeting And it didn't really stop my overspending. But it also— I almost became anti-budget because I didn't want to feel restricted. I didn't want to feel like I couldn't have something because if I feel restricted, I'm going to go around and find a way around it. Like, for example, I'm on this macro counting calorie counting challenge. And when I've been on it before, it's been like no sugar. But then I found like the sugar-free stuff that's really just added calories or added things to substitute for that sugar. And so when I feel restricted, I go around it, and I feel the same way with budgeting. And so I really wanted to understand, like, why it felt like a need so that I didn't need to force myself into doing anything. And what I found was I actually started tracking my spending, and I— it was outside of bills, outside of your fixed expenses, everything like that. It was just excess spending because we were making good money and had nothing to show for it. So I was like, okay, I want to figure out where my money's going. And I did. I found exactly where it was going. And it was shocking to see all the times I was buying bargains or buying emotionally, all the times I was buying on impulse. And that's when I started wondering, are these trends in my spending, are they unique to me, or are they unique to all people that struggle with overspending? And it turns out there's a common habit and trend in everyone there's this drive to shop?

I like— wait, like, so we— so first, okay, let's— can we go categories? Like, like, I hate shopping for clothes. I like that more. Like, so the only thing that I spend a lot more money on is my daughter and food. Like, I like— so, you know, I go to Aldi's, but still, like, I'm like always buying things that are new, or, oh, I have to have the snack. Yes. So what— but I have one pair of sneakers, so I keep saying I got to go shopping for sneakers. It's not that I don't have the money, I just really dislike shopping.

Right.

But I still feel like I, I, I, I still feel like I'm— there's something off with me. So can you help?

You— there's a category for you too. So there's what's called the necessity spender. The necessity spender, they spend most of their money on things that are needed for the household and family members and close friends, but it's strictly needs. They really are clear on this is a need, this is a want. And so it sounds like you are saying, I only need one sneaker, so I'm only going to have one sneaker. And for your daughter, you may feel a need to provide, and so things are more— you're a little bit more forgiving when it comes to like buying things for her because it's like, well, it's my daughter and she needs these things. And but you still define them in terms of want. Does that sound pretty accurate?

I, I— yes, it sounds accurate. And I've always realized that I probably— I've always struggled with this because I don't even know. So I think for having someone like you that really is out there to help us, it does make— it does make sense. My daughter and I, we kind of pride ourselves on being minimalists. So that's one thing. So, you know, but what does that really mean? You know, right. Because I could show you that she's got a lot of things. But we know that we could travel. We did a 4-month road trip and we were watching our budget. But except, you know, if I'm in a restaurant and all of a sudden I see that they have like a prime rib and it's $30 and it walks by me and that's not on my budget, but I'm ordering that prime rib. I don't care. I'm going to squeeze it or somehow figure it out later.

Right, exactly. And I really wanted to understand why we buy, not just what we buy. So if we take, for example, what I was really interested in was like clothing and accessories. Accessories. And I wanted to buy clothes, I wanted to buy matching purses, I wanted to buy all the things, clothing and accessories. And I— but I would realize that I would buy these things and then I wouldn't wear them. Like, I wouldn't wear all the things. I had a lot, first of all, and I just wasn't putting in the effort to get ready and wear those things. And not to mention, I was shopping in sweatpants and slippers, and it just didn't match the person I was buying for. And so I, I really started to think, like, what is it that makes me so drawn to these items? And for me, I had gone from, like, a high-achieving personality in my career, in grad school, just everything, to full-time stay-at-home mom. And I kind of lost some identity. I kind of lost some self-worth. And I was trying to buy back items that gave me that feeling of self-worth, that gave me that she looks good on the outside, she must be great on the inside, even though I didn't feel that way. And even vacations— I, I heard once that the, the reason we love hotels is because they are minimal, they are clean, they are just your basic necessities, and we love to escape to that. And people that like to buy and, and vacation, you're wanting that escape escape. So instead of looking at like, why did I buy another trip, think, well, what am I escaping from? What am I vacationing to? Where— how can I create that life within my day-to-day instead of feeling like I have to spend thousands and thousands of the— on this vacation? How can I replicate that in my own life? And I really want people to, to become aware of the little luxuries that they want. A lot of the time we say I want this, but it's too expensive. I want a vacation once a year or once a month, but it's too expensive. And yet I said those same things. I said, oh, I want this. I want house cleaning services. I want to do spa nights weekly. And I just immediately wrote it off as it's too expensive. And yet when I looked at my spending, I was spending 10 times that amount on things that I didn't care about. And so once I saw the hundreds and hundreds of dollars I was spending unintentionally on things it didn't bring me joy. I was like, this has got to stop. I want to fund the life I want with the money I already have. And it's still a numbers game. So you've got to— you can't just say, well, I'm spending $2,000 over my budget, I'm going to just spend $2,000 on something I really care about. You've got to have a balance. And so I don't focus on budgeting, I focus on the spending part of the budget, because I recognized that overspending is not a budgeting problem, it's a spending problem. And so a budget wasn't working because I was spending too much. I didn't have any money left over to save. And so you have to understand that it's a balance between saving and spending. And a lot of the time when we make our budget, we just don't think about that. We don't think about, all right, I've got $500 to last me for the month. How do I spend under that to meet that $500? And we need to attach a value to it. It's, I need to spend $500 on groceries so that I can put $200 toward my trip fund, or so that I can put $200 toward whatever it is. We need to attach a value so that we're not so tempted by those things that creep up during the month. We don't lose that reason as to why we're doing what we're doing with our money.

Interesting, interesting. I'm gonna just ask, if everyone cannot watch this right now, if you could turn, turn it down. I just want to share something with Marianne. I'd like you not to listen. Like anyone's gonna do that. But Marianne, so I'm curious about— because I'm gonna admit this— when I first moved from Connecticut, little town in Connecticut, to Aventura outside of Miami area And I was at my first event. The woman in front of me had a bag and it had the initials MK. And I said out loud, Mary Kay is making bags? And the guy behind me, Oscar, patted my back. He said, oh, she's so cute. Adrienne, it's Michael Kors. I didn't know.

I've had no—

I've had no fascination. I mean, I love Betsy Johnson. So let me just say this.

Yes.

But I don't have that, like, crazy fascination and need that I have to have everything be a brand. Now, my mom would say, Adrian, you really— a couple pieces of something really nice, whether it's, you know, my mom loved Nordstrom, so she, you know, the St. John's, she loved the St. John's. She said, you know, you have one St. John's outfit and that lasts you your whole life. And I'm thinking, my mom's crazy. I can have like 25. Outfits from Dress Barn for the— from the one, like, skirt that I'm out— like, really, Mom? But can you explain to me, like, how— why is it that I have this— you know, people like me, I'm sure that other people are like me— why do we, um, either have that craving that I have to show everything has to be, you know, a name, or I'm okay if it's just, you know what, it doesn't matter to me. I drive a 2005 Honda Civic. I mean, really, like, if anyone says anything and says they don't really have that feeling— but I'm jumping around. On the other hand, Marianne, I do understand where money is, and I feel like that's that part. Half the time I sound very silly, you know, thinking, oh, like, look at me, I don't need money. But of course we need money, and I need money for my future. So I need to balance this all. So if you're on the same train as me, press like.

Absolutely. I love that you brought that up because that was one of my questions. Why are some people driven to buy the luxury brands, the Mary Kay or Michael Kors? Why are they driven to buy those when for you that's not important? You can buy 10 times that amount for the same price. And it really comes down to what we value. So I found, um, so when I saw those trends and patterns in my own spending, I reached out to people and said, do you struggle with these same things, buying emotionally, buying impulsively? And I identified 6 spending types that categorize, or they summarize the main reasons or primary drive that we have to spend. And so the, the cool thing about the spending types is it identifies what triggers you to spend. Each of them has— is tied to a basic human need. So we have Maslow's hierarchy of need. And the basic is food, water, shelter, human relations. And then we have the higher needs like love and belonging, self-esteem, and reaching your highest potential. And for some, that need to be loved and belong to a certain group of high status is very compelling for them. That is a need for them more than even food, even basic necessities. And so for them, their spending reflects buying things that makes them feel like they belong or brings them that love and admiration from other people. And so when we buy that item, we think that we got the happiness from the item, but it's actually because we got that need met of feeling loved and having that belonging. And so that's what I find so fascinating is that You can't really argue when someone's saying, I, I don't feel like a need is being met. That's when spending is so individual, because you're spending to feel— fill a need that's not being met. And instead of filling it with external things, we need to fill it with the internal things that bring us that true happiness. For me, I realized that I wanted that self-worth, and I wanted that purpose again. And instead of putting all that money toward shopping and things that I just threw in my closet and didn't wear, I decided to put that money toward personal development. That's something I love. I love learning about what we do and why we act as humans and just how to be the better me. But I told myself over and over, oh, that's too expensive, that's too expensive. And I said, no, I'm gonna spend less money by doing something that is more valuable to me than any one item of clothing ever was. And as soon as I switched that perspective, it's like my spending almost stopped overnight. And I still have issues where, you know, I'm tempted. My emotions are out of whack. I need— I have that need to pick myself up when I'm feeling down. We all have those moments. But I realize that it's not going to make me happy. It's not going to give me lasting happiness. Like the personal development did. And so for each of us, we really have to look not just what we're buying, but why we're buying those things. What are we escaping from? What are we trying to buy? What feelings are we trying to buy externally that we should be validating internally?

I just want to let that breathe for a minute. That this, this is a lot of really good information. So how does someone— so someone first of all has to identify. You know what? I'm like a squirrel jumping around.

I love it.

Mary Ann, is some of this— sometimes I think— so I have 3 boys, right? So my oldest son is like me. Sorry, Alex, throwing you under the bus. He's not great with money. He has the same thing like, well, it's my last time I'm going to be here, so let's spend it out. Like we're just bad with money and always struggling. And then my middle son is amazing with money, very careful. I mean, he went— now I'm gonna talk when he was 20, but now at 35, he's really, really good. And then my 25-year-old works hard for his money, and he's also very smart. And so I always wonder, does it, does it come down— did I— I feel like I missed the classes that my parents must have been teaching my older brother and sister because they're brilliant with money. My other siblings are great. I'm not. Did I, did I just not pay attention to my parents when they were talking about money?

That is such a good question because, you know, I grew up in a family that money was always talked about, and my, my parents are very financially successful, stable. They've got a lot of things I admire. And growing up, I, I took that lesson of you need to be good with money by saving. You only save, you don't spend. You only spend when you're retired. That was kind of the mentality I had. I said, if I want to get to the point where my parents are, I need to save, save, save every dime, every penny. And so I did. And in, in some regard, yeah, I was good with money. But when I got married— so I was fortunate to have like scholarships and help from my family to go through college and things, and so I didn't have that need to buy and afford everything. I, I had that help. And so that's That's something that was a very big blessing to me. But when I got married, I became in charge of the finances and I saw all the money and I was like, oh, I can go buy fun things now. Like, I didn't allow myself to do that before. And so I just went the total opposite way because I— it was like, oh, I didn't get to do this when I was younger. Like, and I could have, but I chose not to because at the time the security of putting money toward future rainy days was more important than material things. And then when I got married, when I became a mom— it was really when I became a mom when I just felt so tapped out, so just emotionally drained. I really wanted that pick-me-up, and I was like, this is going to make me happy. This item that I'm buying is going to make me happy because it makes me look good, it makes me feel good. And, and again, we just think that it's the objects we buy that brings us that internal happiness, but it's not. And so it really doesn't— it— there is some, some, um, proof to it. There is a backstory for everyone. If you grew up in a very poor household or a very affluent household, it really does play a role, but it doesn't mean that like your family, you, your siblings all got the right message. You didn't get the right message. It just comes down to needs and values. And for you, it sounds like necessities. You, you sound like someone that is kind of, tell me, tell me if you agree with this. You kind of value like the, you only live once, but also like you've gotta save and you've gotta have that money for rainy days. Does that sound like more accurate or?

Yeah, so my parents were very giving. I grew up with money, so that was never really the issue. I never wanted for anything. Um, and then growing up, I, I, I mean, I worked. My parents said, you know, we had to work, and, you know, I was given the car and those kind of things. But I, I used to draw— my house was always a small little house with a picket fence, and it was never the mansion. It was a little tiny home. Looking at it now, that's what I wanted. I didn't feel like I— and I still feel like I don't— why do I need a big house? You can only be in one room at one time. So like, in my mind— but I will share that my parents, where I struggle with, is that they would take people out to eat and they always paid the bill. They always took the bill. And watching them do that, I saw the pleasure that they got. I saw the pleasure that other people got. And then it felt awkward for me not to do the same thing. So like, I like— so when I go out to eat, If I say, Marianne, you and I are out to eat, and if I say to the server, oh, we're going to have separate bills, know that that takes a lot for me because normally I want to grab the bill. And but then I, you know, I have things that I can't always do that. I realize that that's like something awful. I'm really— I am a restaurant spender. I love going out because I hate my kitchen. I literally hate cooking. I do not like it. I cook, but I don't like it. So I go out and that— but sometimes I'm very careful. Other times my eyes are bigger than my stomach and I want more. And my mom always said to me, the one thing she did say is, Adrienne, money burns a hole in your pocket.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. I think the best way to— because everyone's different. For you, it's restaurants. I love food. I'm a foodie. And I think the best analogy is kind of calorie counting, macro counting. So I have a certain number of calories that I'm supposed to eat a day to achieve the goal weight that I want, and I need to stick to that in order to achieve the goal weight. Now within that, it's, it's over 1,000 calories, it's 1,200 calories. Within those calories, there's different sections. So there's a section for protein, there's a section for fat, and then so we have protein, fat, and Oh, I'm forgetting the other one. Oh my gosh. Anyway, so we have these 3 areas that we're, we're looking at, and I, at first, I would plan my day and put the meals, and then I would put the sweets at the end. But I am very motivated by desserts and sweets. I am super motivated by those. And so once I realized that if I plan those first and then I cut in the areas that I don't really care about, that still meets my $1,200. It still meets that requirement. And I will compare something that I want to those treats. So for me, it's those strawberries and cream Lindor chocolates. They are so stinking good. They had them for Valentine's Day, and I've like ordered some because I just love them anyway. So I was at a birthday party last weekend and they had some cake, and I asked my husband, I said, do you think this is a cake I would like, or do you think I would prefer my Lindor chocolates? Because he just knows how much I love those. He's like, honestly, I think you'd prefer the Lindor chocolates. It's, it's so-so. And I was like, okay. So I waited. I didn't have that key even though I wanted it. I wanted those Lindor truffles more than the cake. And so we kind of have to think of that trade-off with budgeting. We need to think that I have this certain amount that I can use today, that I can use for the month. Do I want this now or do I want this other thing later? And we have to have that comparison point. Otherwise, we're just going to always give in in the moment. And so for you, if you prioritize eating out, great. Let's just cut in areas that you don't care about. It sounds like you don't really care about clothing and accessories for yourself, but, and that's fine. So find things that you can cut costs in so that you can really enjoy eating out so it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. Because when we're sacrificing, especially with money, if we say, no, I'm not going to spend money on that, that money that we don't spend gets lost in checking. And we just see it being spent. So it's like, well, why did I give up on something that I could have participated in? Like FOMO— why did I have that when it's just getting spent? So we really need to save that money and be intentional about, I'm not spending the $40 here so I can spend it somewhere else. You need to put that money either in another account or just keep track on, like, a vision on the paper and just say, like, $40 $80, $20 toward what I really want. And that way that money is already there. That's what I really encourage people to do. Otherwise, it just gets too hard when you're in the moment. You don't want to miss out. No one wants to miss out.

Well, you know what? You know what also gets me is that I have to, like, if I'm like someone that has a GoFundMe account, I feel like I have to donate. I'm always trying to support other people because I want to. It gives me a lot of pleasure. And so there's been times where I'm like, wow, like, you know, I just— there's just a big need. But how could someone work with you, Maryann? What does that look like working with you?

Yeah, so I have a couple of ways. So my Spending Types quiz is free. You can take to identify what drives your urge to spend. And that's the first step in what I say becoming unshoppable, how to overcome that urge to shop. And then if you want to join my free community, it's the Money Maker Under community on Facebook. And then, um, both with the quiz, uh, you'll get the email results of the quiz and you'll get invited to the Facebook group. And then I have my course Become Unshoppable. So there's lots of ways to work out with me one-on-one, group. But really the most beneficial to start with is to just figure out what drives your urge to spend so that you can become aware of it and go, do I want my money to go toward these things that I'm buying, or do I want it to go to something I value more.

Wow. I love this. So you're going to send me your headshot and send me all this information so I can put it out there. And yeah, I mean, this is an interesting conversation, but I love that you took it from a whole nother level of understanding the psychology of where they're coming from and not just saying, put the fill-up budget out. Thank you for that. I really needed this conversation and I got free coaching too. So look at that.

I know. There you go.

I love it. I'm so glad. Maryann, you're an excellent host. Excellent host. You're an excellent guest.

You're an excellent host too.

Oh, thank you. I'm just being myself. You know what? I figured I just might as well be real because this is truly the situation that I am in is my husband doesn't work. He's got leukemia and a traumatic brain injury. So I'm proud of the money. But then I always say, well, you should pay yourself first. Or if I don't have a vacation, end up burned out. And so I want to go away on vacation and all those little things. So, yeah, their needs.

Their needs. I totally feel you.

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for being with me. Thank you for your 30 minutes. It was great. Thank you for your patience in the beginning. And thank you for ending the 7-hour— no, the 7 podcasts in a row, which I did.

Absolutely.

Well, congrats.

That's a huge accomplishment.

I want to do like the Guinness World of Records.

Oh my God.

Like how many? So I'm going to look it up and maybe I'll just do like a weekend marathon, right?

That's amazing. Oh, I'll have you back.

Have you back and then I can break it up into segments. I got some little fruit fly. Anyways, thank you so much for being here and I'm going to turn this into a podcast too. We're live, but then I'll be turning it in. So I'll get you all the information after you send it to me with the show notes. You had a lot of good quotes too. So thank you.

Thank you.

Oh, where are you located? I don't even know.

Oh, Utah. What about you?

Where? Where?

So I'm in northern Utah. What about you?

Daytona Beach, Florida.

Oh, I'm so jealous.

I love— we lived in Tucson for a while, and I just love the mountains. Do you have mountains where you are?

Yes. They're gorgeous. We live up right by the mountains. So yeah, we're really lucky.

The whitecap is beautiful. I am jealous. All right. My next trip. Oh, you know what I do? I started doing Trusted House Sitter and so I could travel. So when I did the 4 months, I did lay out kind of a budget. I wasn't— it was easy to write about a budget than doing it. But the Trusted House Sitter, I sat for people's pets for free, my daughter and I, and that really made the trip. It was so much fun, but it also saved money. And, and taking care of people's pets was like a gift for us. So I am pretty proud of what I did with my 2005 Honda Civic. That we drove it and it was— we had a great time, but we did. We watched every penny to make sure. Yeah.

Yeah. You cut in the areas that you didn't really care about so that you could afford that vacation. That's great. I love that.

So I can afford a big burger.

Hey, that's my type. That's my type of way to spend.

I'm hungry too. All right. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. You really made my day.

Thank you. Thank you.

This is fantastic.