Let's meet Sandra Kokotovic

We're live! Okay, who is this beautiful woman, Sandra? And then I was told I could say Coco.

Who—

okay, this woman, obviously all I know about her truly is she's brave, beautiful. I mean, really beautiful. I should just like get myself out of the picture.

Um, keep going.

You're brave, bold, and beautiful. Okay, but we need you to introduce yourself because I, I don't know who you are.

Hi, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. Uh, first of all, I'm a very lucky guest to be on this show with you. Uh, my name is Sandra Kokotovic and I'm a digital marketer. Honestly, 80% of my personality is I'm a marketing girl and the other, uh, 10% is split between probably cats and maybe walks around, uh, around beautiful places. Um, I'm the co-founder of a boutique marketing agency, um, that I started with my husband 8 years ago. And we work with brands and businesses in the biohacking and wellness space to help them make a lot of money and grow. So we offer services like lead gen, email marketing, content creation, all the fun stuff that come with digital marketing. I love it. I love it.

Wait, did you say biohacking?

Yeah.

I don't— wait, so that's your niche market is biohacking. And there was something else. Okay, please, please. We all, like, ears are wide open right now.

Sure, sure. You probably do some biohacks at home too without even knowing they're biohacks. Uh, biohacking is basically, um, hacking your internal operating system. So controlling the environment around you and inside of you so that you can have full control over how your body performs and how you live your life. So something super simple that I think a lot of people do at home would be fasting. Fasting is a biohack. Um, anything like cold plunges, red light therapy, cryotherapy, um, all sorts of, um, Wim Hof breathing method, that's biohacking. Supplements are biohacking. Nootropics are biohacking. You've probably seen the mushroom coffee, those are biohacking. So it's just controlling the environment inside of you and around you so that you can live your best optimal life.

Oh, I do biohack. I do drink the mushroom.

You drink mushroom coffee?

Yeah, I do like that a lot. Chakra?

Yeah, that's one of the brands. There's lots of brands right now. Um, and maybe you've heard about even the Bulletproof Coffee, the one with the butter inside?

No, the one with the what inside?

Butter, like the butter coffee?

No, butter coffee.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, this was, uh, really hot, uh, back in maybe 2015, 2016 and onwards. Um, a guy named Dave Asprey, who was actually the I will call him the granddaddy of biohacking or the father of biohacking. He kind of coined the term biohacking. He came up with this formula of super clean, organic, without mold coffee mixed with butter, grass-fed butter. I think he was in— I think it was a trip in— oh my God, somewhere in the mountains, Nepal maybe. And then he drank like yak butter with coffee and he realized that It gives him so much energy, and then he doesn't have to like peak and then decline, but it's like a steady energy throughout the day. So he saw that the mountain people were drinking it, so he decided to blend butter with coffee and MCT oil and create this like creamy goodness of coffee that's called Bulletproof Coffee.

Oh my gosh, you know, like I remember going to the mountains of Gatlinburg. Yeah, they drink Mountain Dew. There you go. And that's why their teeth have problems. So that is so— okay, I have to learn about that. So let's go back to digital marketing because I grew up in the logo merchandise business, the promo branding merchandise. When did the term digital marketing— like, I know it had to be at least 8 years because you've been in business for 8 years, but do you have an idea, like, what— when do we start to call the marketing digital? Is it the onset of the internet?

I, uh, I have, um, yeah, I would say, um, we— I don't know if we— good question. I don't know if we— sorry, I was thinking about something. I would say when we started doing things online, so when the expectation was that you start shopping online, doing business online, is when we switched to digital marketing. Not to say that print marketing's not, uh, working anymore because I have now inserts from my Amazon purchases where it's like Hey, thank you so much for buying our cold plunge. What a mystery gift, you know? But digital marketing really started taking, I guess, the front seat, the driver's seat, when we started doing business online.

So I— sorry about that, my son's calling me. I, I find it so fascinating. So when we talk— so first of all, where are you located?

Currently I'm in Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario. There's about 4 feet of snow on my driveway because I have to shovel it. It's very cold, but fun In fact, I'm actually a digital nomad. So in the last 3 years, I lived in over 50 Airbnbs and I've lived in multiple countries and I lived out of suitcases, just me and my husband, one suitcase each. And I, I negotiated a carry-on bag. I said negotiate it because he has to like lug it around. He's really not happy about that. So I'm a digital nomad that is back home for a few more months.

I love that. I'm similar, but I actually am a trusted house sitter. So I, I travel and I sit for people's pets for free. I do have 25% off, and I get like 2 months free if anyone's interested. But I did a 4-month road trip with my daughter— 2— well, 150 days really, so more like 5. And I did, um, and then with my husband, we did about 2 months last summer, and I'm planning in June too, um, and then October. And so I go to locations that I love, but I love that I get to it. First of all, there's no cost. So I don't get paid, the homeowner doesn't get paid, and it's exchange for I watch your pets and your home and you let me stay in your home. And it's a beautiful— oh, I love that.

I love it. Oh my goodness. I have to look into that. Like, I— so you get to play with cats and dogs all the time?

Yes.

What a life.

Will you pick— like, my favorite, favorite was a Doodle. I— it was a Great Dane and doodle mix. And oh my gosh, I, I don't even know where to go with it because I fell in love. But yeah, so if you like cats, if you like bunnies, if you like fish, if you like horses or ducks, like whatever it is that you like, and it's all over the United— it's all over the United States and then like all over the country. So you can, you can go. So yeah, saves you a lot of money than all the Airbnbs. And most of them are Airbnbs or people's homes.

Yeah, yeah, that is so fun. That is such a cool concept.

And you know what I have to say? Trusted House Sitters created something called Trusted Tailblazers, not Trailblazers, but T-A-I-L. And Sandra, I absolutely love— so they sent me, you know, do you want to get involved? And I said yes. And it's a whole big like app. And so every time I do a post, or they'll say, hey, time for you to do a post, and then I do a post, I earn points and credits and gifts for posting. And they kind of say, today we want you to do this or that. And but it's done so professionally to really grow the Trusted House Sitter brand. So I, I, I just love the idea of digital marketing. So what is— so you picked your specialty, and is that because you are health conscious? Because you look like you are.

That is part of it. That is part of it. We, uh, we try to be— we meaning myself and my team. Um, I realized that my team also has, you know, I have a very good team. We've been, um, together with some of them for like, oh my God, since 2018. Um, so we all kind of naturally navigated towards this. Um, at home we do, you know, biohacks and wellness. Like, I I have, um, well, I have a Bali room for meditation, and like, that's where I read, and I have my amethyst little trees and whatnot. We also built a gym in our garage. We have a cold plunge, we have a sauna at home, we have red light therapy, we have all the, you know, the, uh, the fun bells and whistles. But, um, we, we try to be healthy because we realize that health is in our hands, and, um, you have nothing if you don't have your health. Um, when it comes to working with businesses, actually, we Yeah, we naturally gravitated towards healthy businesses, but also we started working with— I mentioned Dave Asprey earlier, but one of his franchises, the father of biohacking, one of his franchises called Upgrade Labs, where they have biohacking labs like cryotherapy and red light therapy and a lot of other cool tech. We're one of the preferred agencies. So when we started working with multiple of their locations and then we, you know, they have members that have businesses and they're like, oh, we want to work with you. We just kind of created this ecosystem of health and wellness. I still work with a lot of brands that are not necessarily in the health and wellness space. Like we work with like furniture companies and jewelry companies because we've been working with them for years. But just over the last couple of years has been mostly like wellness biohacking. So then we decided since the team likes it too, let's just kind of create this ecosystem of, yeah, health and wellness kind of marketing. I love that.

I have a client that is, um, we're looking right now at using LinkedIn, and they do personalized supplements.

Oh, nice.

Cool. Yeah. And then they, like, they can private label them for any, um, weight loss clinics.

So cool. I love that. Yeah, yeah.

It's a new thing, right? They test your blood, and then you get the vitamins and the, and the supplements that are meant for you, personalized. So I think that's really cool.

Yeah, I think that's really cool. Like you're seeing, you know, the personalized market is bigger and bigger. Like I'm getting a lot of ads for, let's say, shampoo. So I always see like personalized shampoo or personalized, personalized everything, personalized meal plans. And I think the personalized market is still growing. So that's actually pretty, pretty cool.

That's interesting. My friend has a company called Nolan's Nest and they do beautiful candles and soaps. And in essence, she's— I guess I have to tell her she's in essence personalizing it. With like the fragrance I want. Like, I love the brown sugar. Yeah, I want to smell like a cookie. I mean, it makes me feel happier. Yeah, I love, love, love that. And I am on— I am on the GLP-1 shot because otherwise I wouldn't— I've lost like 35 pounds because I really love sugar and I love donuts and I can eat them every day of my life. I think someone needs to make like a donut that's actually healthy for you. But it has the same flavoring as a delicious—

I know, it's, it's, it's tough. I, I, I, I'm a carb girl. I love my carbs. I, I like my fries and my pasta and pizza and my donuts. Um, yeah, actually yesterday I had 2 brioches with like filling. I love the brioches.

Oh my, and Aldi's does like such a great job with them too. Yeah, yeah, down the road I'm like, I love that. But I, I, I do think to myself if you're going to have a little sweet, Adrian, have it after a good protein meal.

Yes, correct.

Yeah, right. So just don't have it on an empty stomach because then all the sugar would go rushing through me. So I do try to do that. So I guess that's a little biohacking.

It is biohacking. Yes. They say you're supposed to start with either protein or, um, or leafy greens, and then exactly that, like dessert should be at the end because you're feeding your body the nutrients it needs first, and then you're feeding your soul with a little sweet treat.

Okay, so let's go over what you do because I love that you are— and you know what, it really makes a difference when you're buying something from Amazon and you're getting a nice card.

Thank you.

Yeah, that one looks beautiful. So, so what exactly? So I could see you do like print marketing.

I don't do print marketing. I was just saying that pre-marketing actually works, and I was showing you the card that I have. So we'd only do digital marketing. So in terms of the actual services, so in terms of the businesses that we serve, uh, we serve two types of business, one being the local businesses Imagine like wellness centers, spas, maybe those flotation, um, the, the floating spas. And we typically help them get more clients, more members, more appointments, um, bottom line, more members, right? Um, so we do lead generation that looks usually like setting up an ad, getting people interested, getting them booked to come in for a service, and converting them to members. Um, among all of that, we do content creation, social media, TikTok, YouTube, SEO, whatever needs to be done in order to attract attention and get customers in the door. Um, we also work with e-com brands, and that's largely because, um, my husband and I were actually e-commerce entrepreneurs first, and then we became marketing agency owners. So we had our own stores that we built, we sold, some of them succeeded, some of them failed, and we work with brands that have kind like reached the ceiling, like they're doing well. Maybe they're doing like a couple million dollars a year, maybe up to 5, but they can't really— the same dollar for dollar doesn't work in ads anymore, or they can't optimize their Google Ads or their Facebook Ads enough to justify the additional spend. So typically those brands need different services. So I act as fractional CMO. So that would be your chief marketing officer that you don't need full-time. Um, so I manage their teams, whether it's internal team or I offer my team where we deliver services like email marketing, text marketing, social media marketing, content creation, influencer, everything that is built in the ecosystem of e-com brands and growing those brands.

I love that. Are you using LinkedIn?

I am using LinkedIn a lot for myself. I find that LinkedIn is perfect for B2B brands. It's also good for B2C brands, but I think for, for B2B brands, the powerhouse for coaches, B2B brands, any sort of like advisors, personal branding, LinkedIn is— I love LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn.

Oh good. So we'll connect. So, so you had mentioned something and I just I want to go back there, but I have to get my brain to catch up with me. So hold on. So you— so when you were bringing up the— oh shoot, shoot, that happens once in a while where my, my brain just like had a thought and then I, I've lost— I'm gonna try to catch it somewhere. Okay, so, so with the— oh, I know what I want to ask you. Let's talk ads, because if you're—

if you—

I'm just gonna say this out loud. If you out there, the three of you that are watching this, If you think, oh, I could just spend $2 and I could boost it, um, and I'll do that a day and maybe I'll get— okay, why don't you just take your money and just throw it down the toilet? Because you need someone like Sandra, right? Sandra, like, you can't do like Facebook ads. You have to know what you're doing and you have to test them. So can you share why it's— unless you actually know how to do Facebook ads, don't do them and hire an expert. Save your money.

Okay, let me clear the calendar for the rest of my day because ads is a big, big topic. Okay, so, uh, just to backtrack, back in 2015, 2016, when, um, Facebook ads exploded, it was so easy, truly, for anybody to— exactly what you said— boost an ad. Those were the glory days. Like, I remember back in 2016, we were putting in a dollar and get, get back $10 or $12. Like, that was when I was literally chilling in Bali when my husband, now husband, was working on masterminds. Um, a lot of things have changed since then. There's a lot more competition, there's a lot more businesses, a lot more people started doing ads, a lot more bots, uh, data privacy. A lot has happened. People have skepticism about buying online. So a lot have happened, a lot has happened. Um, why I don't— so hiring a professional to do your ads ads will be expensive in the sense that you have to pay for someone and you have to pay for the ads. So if you're at tabula rasa, you're at ground zero and you're like, hmm, I'm going to spend a few thousand dollars on ads. It will be a lot of money to hire someone and run your ads. So I do understand why there's a little bit of a resistance. But also if you're doing your ads on your own, like boosting here and there can give you a little bit of, you know, can get you a little bit of engagement. It can get you a little bit of views, but it's not going to get you results. Why? Because most likely you don't have a funnel that you're feeding, right? So what I find that a lot of people or business owners are getting wrong about ads is they're trying an ad, they're boosting an ad, and they're saying Facebook ads don't work. And it's like, if I ask them, why don't they work? Well, I didn't get any sales. Well, okay, so what were you doing before Facebook ads? What do you mean? Well, what did your funnel look like? What was the machine that you built where the only missing piece was I need ads to bring people into this machine. And a lot of times there's no machine, right? It's just this idea that ads are going to work for you just because you're spending money. Spending money does not, does not mean that you are owed to make sales. If you think about it, like Meta and Google and Bing and all these platforms, they're auction platforms, right? Like you're bidding, basically you're auctioning off your kind of like your product, your offer. And who wins in an auction is the highest bidder, the best bidder, the one with the best offer. So what comes into play when it comes to ads— there's a lot of AI now, by the way. So like platforms like Meta will have a very good AI built into it. You can even like tell Meta to choose an audience for you. All good. But an ad will be successful, uh, based on different criteria. And also success means different things to different businesses. First of all, in 2025, there are very few businesses that can be profitable on the front end. So even if you have that machine, it doesn't mean that you got to be profitable because it's so expensive to do ads right now. So what you want to have is not only a machine that converts, so your website has to be really high converting, but also your lifetime value plan for your customers. It has to be set in place. So once you get this customer in your system, what are you going to do to A, get more business out of them, get referrals out of them, get content from them, get reviews from them, and get repeat purchases. That's, that's number one. Number two is if you've never done ads, you have to gather data, right? You don't even know what works. So then you have to do a lot of testing. So a lot of business owners, they get very, um, kind of like they feel down because they're like, oh, nothing works. Um, the other thing is with ads, you have to test a lot of creatives. So right now I would say that creatives are your most important piece in your ad strategy because again, the targeting can be done by the machine, but we test, I would say anywhere between 10 and 50 different creative or creative variations a week in order to get that one winning ad. And then we get a winning ad, then, you know, you're optimizing and you're optimizing it. So why you shouldn't do ads by yourself, it's because unless you have an optimized machine that will you know, where the only missing piece is ads, then the chances are you're not going to get a lot from them. If you have the scarcity mindset of I need to spend only a couple hundred dollars and see what, see what that looks like, you're not going to get a lot out of it because again, you're operating from scarcity. What, like, how can you grow when you're operating from scarcity? Now, if you have a well-built machine, and it doesn't matter what the lead like, like the lead generation or like the traffic source is, if I have a good, well-built machine, like let's say I want to get more clients for my, my, my agency, right? So I have, I have a program in place where someone comes with me on a meeting, I'm sending them some resources, I'm sending them a proposal, and that's kind of like my funnel. It doesn't matter if that person booked a meeting through an ad, if I cold called them, If I send them a letter, if I knocked on their door, if it's a referral, that's just lead traffic sources, right? Because I have the machine built in already. But if you don't have the machine that gives you business and you're just relying on ads, ads are not going to do a lot for you. That was a lot. Like I said, clear your calendars. You want to like dive into ads, but that's kind of like the packaged up version of ads are complicated.

I thought you did a great job, and that is information that people need because I hear it all the time, you know, and someone who's boosted saying, oh, do ads $1 to $2 a day. And I'm like, okay, just throw it away. You know, I mean, that's a candy bar.

That is a candy bar.

Right. You're gonna be throwing away a lot of candy bars. It really is important. So what, how does someone work with you? What is that like? What do you like sit down and interview them? What is your onboarding process look like?

Yeah, I have a pretty extensive intake form or intake system where, you know, I have the information from the beginning because I only send proposals 2 businesses that I think I'm going to work with, and I really grill them for information. Um, so my proposals usually look like 30 pages of like mostly text because it's— my proposal is a strategy. Um, and I, yeah, I sit down with the, um, with the, uh, with the new client. They basically— we talk about their goals, their targets, their, their available marketing resources, meaning their team, whether or not they have funding, how much are they willing to spend until they see the first dollar made from ads, if not doing ads right now, anything that needs to be fixed. Like, every brand is different, every journey is different. Um, I, uh, I do usually just kind of like take charge of their marketing, uh, department. And whether that means building marketing department, working with a marketing department, um, we create strategies. So I don't You're like, I sharpen my axe before I chop down the tree because I don't want to be like one angry lumberjack. So I do a lot of strategy and a lot of actionable strategy, not like, la la la, it would be nice, but like, what, what I need from them is what are your goals? What are your resources? And I create the roadmap. I create the roadmap for email marketing, for ads, for text marketing, for content marketing. I assign the roles. I work with my team. We create playbooks, and basically these playbooks become an operating system that Everybody can just open and then execute. So that's basically how we move along. And it's important to have a strategy, but it's also important to stay flexible and have, you know, be nimble and flexible because things in real world don't end up as perfect as we want them to. But it's important to understand what we're tracking, what we're measuring, and what— where are we going and how we're going to continue optimizing our roadmap to getting there.

Sandra, who wouldn't want to work with you? I mean, I, you know, but when I say that, I actually kind of feel sad because I know that there's a lot of people that really, they, they will watch something and they're like, oh my God, I could sell this, I'll sell this and I can make so much money and they just made all this money and I can have an Amazon store, it's gonna be so easy, I'll just put it through Shopify And it's really not. And so I've just— I, I, I have seen a lot of, a lot of like waste with people and a lot of dreaming. But if you do have a great product and you, and you have something you want to sell, I think you got to go to a Sandra Coco and, and have her do her mix with you, right? I, I really do believe that, Sandra. What you have is knowledge. Not everyone has this kind of knowledge.

Well, it came with a price. So first of all, thank you very much for the compliment. Second of all, I can give you a list of people who don't want to work with me, uh, and It came at a price, right? So we, our team, like, I have an amazing team, first of all. But just to give you a little bit of an understanding about my journey, why there's so much that I can talk about and explain and so on, it's because I've lived that, right? So I mentioned that I— we are e-com entrepreneurs. We actually started with e-com. We had numerous, numerous ventures that failed. We had a couple ventures in e-com that worked really well. When I say really well, I mean 7 figures. The last store that we started, we started it um, while we were working full-time. So our business was not going well. We had a lot of, uh, ventures that failed. So there was a lot of failure and learning, um, until I got my million-dollar store. Um, we went broke. We were honestly broke. We had to go back to— had to go— we had to go back to work. We actually couldn't even find jobs in Kitchener. We moved to Toronto. We stayed with some family friends for a while, and we built our last store while we were working full time. So I was waking up at 5, and from 5:30 until about 8 o'clock, I was working on my store. 8 to 9 o'clock, I was like showering, getting ready for work. 9, I would take— it was like an hour and 15 minutes one way. I would take like— I would walk to the station, take the train, walk a little bit more. It was in Toronto, and that was one way. 10:30 till 6:30 at work. And then when we came back home, we worked more. Weekends we worked, right? So we, we had to fail so much until we got there. And that's the reason why we can share so much, you know, so much of this expertise. But it came with a lot of brands that we tried, failed, a few succeeded. And then a lot of brands that we work with over the last 8 years, businesses that work with us, and most of them succeeded. Some of them didn't. And, you know, it's— have to bring that into the conversation because it's— it happens. Unfortunately, it happens.

Can you share— you don't have to share the brands, but like, what, what was the products that failed compared to the products that you were selling? Did you create the products? Were these products that you actually, you know, were your— like, what kind of products are we talking?

Yeah, so it's actually— so I will tell you a surefire way to have a a chance of succeeding in e-commerce is when your product solves a problem. If a product is not solving a problem, it's going to be harder, right? So when I'm thinking products that solve a problem, you were mentioning the supplements, vitamins that your friend has, um, uh, things that solve a problem for a group of people. And then all you have to do is position your product as the most obvious way to solve that problem so that companies that that either are funded or are ready to spend some money before they see results, because marketing takes time. If you're not sure of how marketing will perform, we're going to have to test. And then the third one is the mindset of the founder and the owner. I'll tell you a few surefire ways of the products that did not succeed, and I don't even think it had to do so much with the products that it had to do with the founders. Founders that were way too in love with their product and they just didn't understand why it didn't sell, right? It's like, I have this amazing product, everybody should buy it. Is that entitlement? Well, just because you have an amazing product doesn't mean that the world is entitled, like you're entitled to have orders. Owners and founders that are tripping over dollars to pick up pennies. So the conversations in our meetings were, I'm not sure if I like the model in the one email that you used. Too many emojis in your email subject line. I wouldn't like have that verbiage. And like, those were the conversations instead of like, okay, I'm not a fan of this, but let's try it. It gets some traction. Let's try something else next time. Uh, founders that are moving quick and then making quick decisions are the ones that are always— I would say always win over the founders that are taking their sweet-ass time. Um, you have like, when you're small, you need to have the speed. You can't You can take weeks to like make a decision. But in terms of products, some of them that failed, oh my God, they were like great products. But again, we just had these like conversations, like they were like pet blankets that I think they're so good. Like I had candle companies, I had a candle company that I've worked with for almost 3 years. They ended up hiring someone from the, someone from the family ended up becoming the marketing manager, but they were selling about $3, $4 million a year worth of candles. And then I had another candle company with an amazing story, but again, our conversations were like, I don't like that caption, I don't like that image. And, and it was just very like this type of conversation, and the conversation wasn't here. Um, products that have a big margin are products that are going to win. So if your margins slim, it's tough, tough, tough, tough, tough. You need a lot of repeat purchases, you need a lot of like high volume. Uh, bigger margins allow you to have, um, to spend more money and test. So yeah, I don't, I don't know if it was necessarily the product. I would say it's more like, is the brand, the business ready to scale? Like, okay, even if an ad works for us right now, we're spending $50 a day. Are you ready to scale to $500 a day? Because we can get you 10x sales. Like I said, tripping over dollars to pick up pennies, this will get you into trouble. Making decisions super slowly, super slowly, not bueno. And then if you're hiring someone like me, and you're telling me what to do, it's like, why are you hiring someone like me? Just, you don't need me. Like, you're either hiring an expert, and not just me, but anyone that is an expert, like, you want to focus on area that is your area of expertise, which usually is the niche or the product production, and let the other people on your team focus on everything else— marketing, sales, and so on. Um, so yeah, that's, that's, that's— wow, those are choices.

You are mesmerizing. I could watch you all day. I don't know if you do speaking. When you're traveling, you should be out there speaking. You, you— I mean, yes, you're gorgeous, but like, just The way you— oh, it's— I love it. And then you throw in those, um, you sharpen your axe before you cut down the tree, and the tripping over the pen. Oh my God, I— if everyone was actually in the room right now, they would all— everyone would be quiet, like, listening to you. It is golden. You drop so many gems. Oh my gosh, thank you. Interesting. You are— I, I'm so excited to find you, and then on LinkedIn, I'm gonna follow you.

You're incredible.

What's your favorite, favorite though? Like, is it Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, or LinkedIn?

So out of the platforms, uh, for business, I like LinkedIn. I, you know, when people say like, don't pitch, la la la, no, the people that complain about you pitching on LinkedIn are the people that are not busy enough with business. Um, I have gotten some of the biggest projects of my life over LinkedIn where I was like, Hey, Adrian, Sandra here in your inbox. By the way, cold-hearted pitch, please disregard if this offends you, but I work with customers or clients just like you. I've solved these problems. If this is a problem you have, are you completely opposed to having a chat? And I've gotten projects from companies that were at $15 million a year when I, when I started working with them, and they were at $21 million a year, a year later when I stopped working with them. So for business, LinkedIn. For spending time, TikTok, hands down. I have a TikTok addiction. It's so bad. I love Tiki-Toki. I, I just— it's bad, but I love it. It's just so silly. It's like everybody's there, man. Like, they're dancing, they're cooking, some of them are cave exploring. What is this? It's fun. Them.

Okay, I agree. I think I get every cottage cheese peanut butter banana recipe that could ever exist in the whole wide world. That's my algorithm. It's like ridiculous, but I love it. I know, so true. I like certain people I love following, and then I like going down the rabbit hole of like, like the, you know, the problem people. I, I'm so impressed with you. I just— I keep— sorry, I'm gonna keep saying it to the world now. I love it.

I—

and, you know, I do have— so when I was in an office in Celebration, Florida, the town that Disney built. I had said to Gertie, I want to meet everyone who's coming in to sell. I want to— because I, you know, don't, don't turn them away. Ask them to wait for me. Let me come out and see them because I, I want to find out, you know, how brave they are to even come into a building. I don't— I wasn't like that person, so I want to know. And I kind of keep the same attitude with LinkedIn. If you want to sell me, I'm okay with that because I want to learn how. I learn what doesn't work. I learn, like, why would someone send, like, like, this is the third message and I'm never going to reach out to you again. And I'm like, maybe I've been away. Like, why are you going to cut off your nose to spite your face? I just dropped one. But right, like, why are you doing that? So I feel like I learn with all the pitches. So for a lot of people, they're like, I won't connect with someone. I don't like the pitches. I'm thinking if you're selling, you should see all the pitches. You should know what they're doing. So you and I have the same kind of philosophy, right? I like that.

Yeah, I agree. And I think I get it. Like, people can be mastering— I don't like that word, but I understand why people can get frustrated, especially there's a lot of automation right now. But at the end of the day, like, I don't want to like go shop for solutions. I like it when I get like a solution coming to my inbox because these people like did their research. And at the same time, you know, I think that if you, if you're the one claiming that you don't pitch and you don't sell, um, it means that you don't believe in your product. Like, I can't wait to talk about it. I can't wait to talk about what we do. Why? Because I know that I have a solution, not for everybody, and that is okay. But I can't wait to talk about what I do. And when you're saying like, I don't sell, I don't pitch, like, okay, so you don't believe in what you do. And then also, um, to me it's scary to wait for something or someone to, um, like, I, I need to be in control of my life, of my finances, of like, how, how can I go into my weekly meeting with my team and say, hey guys, I don't have work for you right now, but, um, hopefully, hopefully someone will be referred to us, you know what I mean? No, I have bills to pay. I have a team that needs to be kept busy. So what is in my control is going out to get business. That is in my control. What is not in my control is waiting for a referral. I love referrals. Referrals, uh, bring me such an easier sell, right? But I cannot just— like, it's not in my control. I don't control that flow. So, you know, just like you, the one that has a brand that wants the, let's say, the vitamins, um, the vitamins, uh, sales are not going to wait for like word of mouth to happen. You want to do ads, you want to like show your product. It's the same with us. So I, yeah, I just, I don't get it. Like people get so offended and the people that have money to buy, they don't have time to complain about the people that are selling. They appreciate the hustle. I love it.

I sell this. This my brain. Wish it was a little prettier. Um, nobody wants to see a picture of a brain, but can you imagine? I'd like to see a marketing piece with like the different brains. Sandra, thank you so much for being here today. I absolutely— really, besides gaining a lot of information from you, you are absolutely mesmerizing. I can just— if you— I don't know if you have a podcast or YouTube video. If you do, I'm watching it.

Oh, thank you so much.

You are fantastic, right on the Yeah, I have a face for radio. You have a face for the big TV film. You're awesome. Oh my God, thank you so much. Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't?

Wow, what a great question. Um, actually, no, nothing that comes to mind. I think, uh, I'm hoping that I gave, uh, your audience some value or something they were looking for, or maybe that they didn't know they were looking for. And I really hope that we're going to be collaborating again.

You're awesome.

Oh, thank you so much.

Yes, I look forward to supporting you, and I can't wait to go look at your— because I didn't check you out, and I love that you didn't have any because you know your stuff. I've only had in the, in the time that I've been doing these lives, which started in 2020, I had one person that called and said, where are my questions? And I'm like, oh, this is not for you, and there's no questions here with me. But I love it because you know, you know exactly what you're doing. So thank you for teaching all of us. Have a great rest of the day. Enjoy the cold. I'm like here sweating in Orlando. So enjoy it.

Send me the warm energy. Thank you so much.

Wait, wait, before we go, I have to, um, share with you Chatter Social. So there is an app, it's a photo, audio, video. Have you heard of Chatter Social?

No, but I'm gonna listen.

Chattersocial.io. And let me just see if there's, um— it is an amazing app. I'm gonna just show you here. I'm gonna hop on and I'm gonna show you. This is— so if you have anyone that's interested, it's a global app.

Yeah.

And then someone can actually get on stage. So these are the people, a lot of them I'm going to meet in Chicago.

Okay.

And it's like, this is called the Debate the News. They do a live show and then they do the Debate the News. He does a— it turns into a podcast. It's fun to listen to because you've got some strong people. And there's a woman, Yvonne, who's out of Canada. A lot of— actually, a lot of people. And then this is what it is. And then you could see like all the people. So there was Clubhouse came out first as a social audio, and then Chatter brings it to a video level. Invite, let me know. It's the coolest thing ever. So I just wanted to— because I think that this is going to be like, it's real conversations with real people. Um, so it's taking social media to a whole nother level. So I can't wait for you. Happy to send you the invite.

That's cool. Yeah, we love that.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Have a great rest of the day.

Thank you. You as well. Bye.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

That was so good.