Meet Attorney Bonderer

I'm looking forward to it. Okay.

Oh, we're live. I'm looking forward to learning more about you and talking patents. Wow. Okay. Hi everyone, it's me again, Adrienne Barker. And yes, my bangs look great, just to get that out of the way. I am so excited. Look who I have. That's brilliant, bold, not bald, but very handsome, very handsome attorney Austin Bonderer. And I hope I said that right. I forgot to ask you.

Exactly. It wasn't until Roger Federer came onto the scene that people could pronounce my last name. So.

Oh, well, I do debate the news, true crime, like, you know, so, so many murders out there. I've learned how to, like, pronounce names. So, hi. OK, so I, I, the only thing I know about you is that you're a patent attorney and I put some information, everyone in the chat. But tell me more about you. Like, I just, I'm so excited to talk to a patent attorney. Where are you located, first of all?

Uh, so I have offices in California, Florida, and currently I'm in my, uh, Alabama office in, uh, Fairhope, Alabama.

And can— if I was in Connecticut, would I be able to use you, or only in those 3 states?

No, exactly. So patents are federal issues, so you can— your patent attorney can be located anywhere. So I basically tell them like, hey, find the person that works that you like the best, that you work with, because at the end of the day It really is teamwork because you know your invention better than anybody, than I ever possibly could. I'll do the best I can. So we have to work together to get your ideas through me onto paper and to the office.

Oh, I have so many questions. But first, yes, introduce yourself and tell us about what makes you, you special.

Well, what makes me, me? So I, you know, I grew up in this area kind of, and then I end up going up to Virginia. And then after I graduated, I worked at the patent office as a patent examiner for like 5 and a half years. During that time, I went to law school at night, got my degree. Then when I came out and eventually moved to California, started working for a company called Foxconn. A lot of people know them because they make the iPhones and stuff like that. I was very surprised, never thought with this type of degree that I would go international. So I got to travel a lot, especially through Asia, you know, doing stuff. And I was like, wow, this great. But eventually I decided I just wanted to open up my own firm, and now I'm a one-man solo operation, and I've been doing this for over 25 years. And, you know, I think I'm pretty successful. I'm listed on over 700 issued U.S. patents, and I enjoy what I do and love working with people.

Wow. Okay, so what was it like being a— like being a— would you say examiner? Patent examiner.

Yeah, so me and Einstein, we were both patent examiners, so we're pretty similar in that. I'm just kidding. That's it, right? But, uh, so being a patent examiner, it— you, you are— you work for the government, and basically what you do is you filter out patent applications to try to figure out which ones does, you know, deserve a patent and which ones don't. And, you know, this is all based on legal but also a lot of factual, technical items, because that's one of the reasons why you have to be either an engineer or scientist and then go to law school before you can become a patent attorney, because it's very technical in nature, a lot of the arguments that we have to make. Wow.

Okay, so, so how many patent attorneys actually worked for the Patent Office?

Probably a lot. Yeah, it was— well, especially those who lived and work in the DC area and the Mid-Atlantic and that because it's easy for them to go. But when I was out on the West Coast, or, you know, my very few, uh, people had worked for the Patent Office because it's just further away. So I mean, if you, if you find attorneys on the Mid-Atlantic and somewhere in that area, you're likely to find people who have worked for the Patent Office. But the further you get away from it, the less likely it is.

So I'm thinking of all my questions and I'm thinking, my gosh, I bet you a lot of them are myths, right? Like, oh, you can only have a patent for 20 years or 50 or whatever that myth is. Could you do like, are you familiar with some of those myths that we can dispel right away?

Yeah, so it is true your patent is only valid 20 years from the date of filing unless there's some other circumstances. But the big one I always keep hearing is the, and this used to work but it doesn't work anymore, what if I write down my invention and mail it to myself and keep it in that sealed envelope, am I protected? No, you're not. So that was basically like back in the old system, it was first to invent won. But you can invent first and be the second to the patent office, and then you'd have to have this huge legal fight. Eventually the patent office and the government said this is too complicated, we're going to make it so that the first to the office always wins. So if you invent something and you let it sit on the shelf in your head for over a year or whatever it is, and someone comes up afterwards and then beats you to the office, they're going to get the patent and you're not.

Okay, wait, so let's just do these one at a time because this is so interesting. So let's say I do, I'm in the store and I, and not retail, but let's just say I go to someone's house and they share something and I'm like, oh my God, I love that you created this walker that your child can ride on. The 1-year-old can go on and feel like they're riding a bike. That's amazing. I'm like, that's awesome. And I take it in my head and then I go to Google it. I'm like, oh wow, they never did anything with it. And I know how they made it. I could just send it off and see what happens. It's, it's too bad they didn't do anything with it. And maybe he probably won't. He never does anything with all of his ideas. That's what I'm thinking. So is that how people steal? Like one of the ways they—

well, you can't, you can't steal the idea. What I was talking about, say like someone independent, like you're— say you're in New York and they're in LA. You know, something like that. But if someone actually— so when you file for a patent application, you have to sign this oath and declaration stating you believe you are the true and only inventor of this item. So if you did, you know, if you kind of got it from somebody else and then filed it, you'd be lying on that paperwork. So therefore, you wouldn't be eligible for the patent. Now, if you totally came up with this idea independent of what you saw from your buddy or whatever, then you could file for it. Or, you know, this sometimes happens— I call it shaking the tree. Anytime you show somebody something, they're gonna— it's— they're gonna think of something to make it better or change something, or, you know, they look at it from a different paradigm. So if you saw your buddy's, uh, walker bicycle baby thing and you're like, you know what, that's kind of cool, but it would be a lot cooler if it did this, this, and this, You could file a patent application for that with no problems.

Wow. Okay. Silly question. Is the Patent Office still open? Are they, are they closed now for the furlough?

I got that question the other day, and I mean, I have to say, I haven't been really paying attention to the shutdown, but they are now self-funded. So I don't know if they get shut down. Because all their fees actually cover all their costs. So their funding is already there. So I'm not exactly sure if they're closed or not. It's not like I haven't called a patent examiner or anything at this point in time. I'm still working and sending stuff because my deadlines are set. They don't change if the, you know, if the office is closed or not. So yeah.

So why would, why would a business or someone who has a— why would they have a deadline? What is a deadline? On a patent, what would that look like?

Well, I mean, so, you know, we try to get the stuff filed as soon as possible, but, you know, when the office action review— when the office reviews your patent application and they give you an office action, you only have a certain period of time to respond, or you are considered to have abandoned your application. And then you either have to pay a lot of money and a lot of time to get that revived, or you just let it go. So we have deadlines once the examination process starts.

Okay, that makes sense. I wasn't sure if they were holding something up or not going to retail with a product. I mean, that would be pretty crazy to— you have to create like a proof when you have it. What do you have to show the Patent Office? Do you have to have the, the proof of like performance, the completion of the product or the idea?

When I was there, and maybe they've come up with some other things, but there's only two They believe, you know, if it makes technical sense and we kind of understand it, then we say, hey, it's enabled. We don't have— you don't have to build it. In other words, you don't have to build that experimental airplane if, if someone of skill of an art can build it based upon what you, you've told them in the application. However, uh, at the time that I remember, I— there might be more now, but is if you have a machine that affects the weather you would actually have to show that, that you've done that. And the other one was a perpetual motion machine, which according to laws of physics would be very almost theoretical and not possible. So, you know, people say like, hey, I have this machine and there's no loss due to friction or this and that, and then you would have your perpetual motion. They're like, we want to see that.

Oh, that's interesting. What about software as a service for patents?

Oh, that's software. It's, it's very difficult to get a patent on software now. There are certain niches where you can, um, but most people come to me as like, hey, I have this software I want to do. And if your software in its most basic form is taking in information, processing it with either algorithms or steps, and/or comparing it to a database and then spitting out an answer, you're not going to get a patent on generally. I mean, obviously there's exceptions to every rule, but the Supreme Court came out and said that software itself has always been unpatentable. But we came up with these loopholes saying, well, it's on a computer and the computer is a physical object, therefore it's not abstract anymore. Can we patent the software? And, you know, we did for a long time, and then the Supreme Court said that's just clever trickery We're not going to do that. So, oh wow. So you can't— what about that abstract idea? So one of the things I tell people is like, look, if you took, uh, you know, someone who's extremely bright and can remember everything and all stuff, if they can— if they can do it all in their head— I mean, obviously computers make it much harder, you know, can do much more— but just say for argument, someone could possibly do all the stuff in their head, take in the information, process it, spit out a result, you're not going to get a patent on it.

Okay, that makes sense. What about, um, in the health industry, all of these supplements that are coming out that they say they're patented? And is it just one change? Like, how does that work for the health industry and patenting in that product?

Well, supplements, sometimes if you found a new use for an old product— so there used to be this, you know, thing we talked about, uh, aspirin, right? You could not patent aspirin because it had been around for so long. But remember when aspirin was discovered to be a treatment for a heart attack? So you could patent the method of treating a heart attack with aspirin because that was new. So with these supplements, sometimes what they'll do is they'll come in and they'll say Oh, for, you know, a method of treating some kind of underlying condition with these— this supplement, even though that supplement's, you know, that weed or whatever has been around forever, you know, if you've discovered that it can do something to the body, then you can sometimes patent that. Another thing is, is that sometimes— take, like, you know how your milk has vitamin D in it? Because what they found was calcium gets absorbed a lot better if you have vitamin D with it. So if you were able, if you came up with a combination of known items, but they were, their actions were greater than the sum of their parts, then you could get a patent on that.

Okay, this is so interesting. All right, so let's, let's talk about internationally what is taking place. So your patent is only good in the United States, correct? Is that true? Okay, but then there's been a lot of talks about patents being being the intellectual property being stolen from other countries. Why? How can, how could a person protect? Can you give me a little history on this claim?

Well, I mean, obviously the, the big, you know, complaint is with China is that they, they, uh, will steal intellectual property or ignore intellectual property rights. So, I mean, it's, it's not even most of it is because when we write a patent application we have to tell someone how to make and use it. It's supposed to teach people how to do it. But if the country doesn't respect the patent right— and because they'll— a lot of companies file in China and say, hey, we have a patent here, you can't steal this. And they're kind of like, well, you know, maybe, maybe not, you know, maybe we'll enforce it, maybe we won't. And that's where you get into the issues of, you know, if it's super valuable, it's going to get stolen. Be used, chances are they're not going to respect your intellectual property rights. Um, you have to go to the courts there. They may or may not favor the hometown guy over us, you know, coming in. So that's what you're dealing with when it comes to, you know, other countries with your intellectual property.

So how do you protect yourself?

Well, the best thing you can do is get a patent in that country. I mean, if it's— if your information is disclosed, at least you have some leg to stand on and try to enforce it in that country. So, you know, one of the things I tell clients is that, you know, we have a discussion if you want to file internationally. Filing internationally, like you said, it's local. Every single country has its own little patents, and that gets very expensive. But, you know, say you, you're building a product, like a small product or something like this, uh, nothing too complicated, and you know it's going to be manufactured in either India, Vietnam, China, this kind of stuff. File in those countries. Because even though you're not going to spend the time and money that it costs to file it in the EU, where there's a large market for these items, if you're able to control the means of production in these low-cost manufacturing centers by using a patent and saying, hey, you might be able to build this in the EU, but you cannot build it here because I have the patent on it, you will likely be able to beat them in, you know, the marketplace because you, you have a cheaper good because it was manufactured in a cheaper area. So even though you don't have a patent in the EU, you may still may be able to maintain a competitive advantage because you control the production. And, you know, I like Dune, so I always say he who controls the production controls the universe.

Okay, I like that a lot. I would like to hear some stories if you wouldn't mind. So I would love to hear When you had to say no to someone, that their idea was good, but you just didn't feel that it was patent-worthy. Not sure of the right word.

Yes, I mean, I have to tell people, I mean, I don't tell them that, you know, if I go through it and we do a prior art search and I think that it's not going to obtain a patent status, you know, it'll be rejected and we're just wasting money. I'll tell them like, I wouldn't invest my money in this.

This.

Now, when it comes to commercial viability, like, I have to tell you, I've seen some products come across my desk. I'm like, this is going to be the greatest thing. I'm so excited. I can't wait till this guy gets it on the market. It's gonna be great. No, it hasn't gone anywhere, right? And then, you know, I'll see some things, I'm like, are you sure you really want— you really want— no, I believe in the product. And then she makes millions of dollars. So it's kind of like one of these things where I've learned that that's not my place. I'm like, the marketability and stuff, that's someone else If you believe in the product, you believe there's a niche, that's for you to decide. That's the business decision. I'm not going to— I'm the law guy. I'll give you the legal stuff, but you do the business.

But wouldn't that be what I would want in a patent attorney, is someone with that attitude that is going to be positive and not try to talk me out of something? And I'm not saying others would, but I love your answer because in my mind that you're right, that you're recognizing your zone of genius and saying, you know what, you're not going to make a recommendation either way. You're going to move forward. Unless you, unless you see. So what happens that way is that you, they love the item. You're like, this is actually a cool product. And then you examine it. What would be an issue in the examination part of it that you're doing before it even gets to the Patent Office, right? You're doing your own kind of examination.

So if we, we, what does that look like to do the prior art search ahead of time? I received the results from the search firm and you know what happens is sometimes there's a piece of prior art, which we mean by prior art is something that existed before, and generally they're patents. Say there's another patent publication out there and it's too close, you know, the examiner is going to see, see this and one, say no way, Jose, we're not going to do this. And then you just wasted all this money on paying me to write this patent application, getting all the way to that part, So, and you know, the first thing I tell my, you know, people who call is like, you don't need a patent to make money. Look around your home. Half the stuff you bought is just stuff that someone went out, built, you liked it, you paid money for it, they made a living, and that's how it goes.

With the patent, is the person that's looking at the patent, do they actually see all the detail of what's in the patent, or is that kept secret for the 20 years?

Oh no, no. So that's, that's kind of the quid pro quo, is that you have to move technology forward, and you do that by disclosing in the patent application. So you have to enable a patent application to teach one of skill in the art to make or use the invention— make and use, not make or use, make and use. So you have to convey enough information that if someone in that area wanted to make what you, you've invented, they could. Okay, the whole point is to improve science, improve technology, improve our, uh, our knowledge as a people. So that's why we're—

okay, that is— okay, that's interesting. So something— hi Rebecca, thank you for being here. If someone wanted to argue a point about their patent, they, they're fighting, they found something and they're like, it's so similar. And where is that fight being taken place? Is it in a federal court?

Well, that's okay. So you got two stages. So the first stage is the patent examiner is going to tell you this is too much if they find it. Now understand, they have a limited amount of time. They're only searching the United States, this kind of prior art. So they may miss something. So I always tell people that, you know, our prior art search is generally— that phase costs client between $1,100 to $1,600. Say your patent becomes the greatest thing since sliced bread and someone wants to do it. Given the amount of money that they know is in the market, they might spend $100,000 on a prior art search, which means they can go all over the world they may be searching all the way in like libraries in Alaska or, you know, Korea and all these places all over the place because anything around the world that predates the date that you filed your patent application is considered prior art and can be used against you. So say they find something, they can either go back to the patent office and say, hey, we found this piece of prior art, you need to look at this patent that you issued and this prior art and decide if you still want to have this patent issued. Otherwise, you can go to a federal court and say, I want this patent invalidated based upon this piece of prior art that I found. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. Okay. This is, this is kind of mind-blowing for me. Are the patents, are they, are they, are patent requests as strong as they used to be? Like, where is it falling now in the last couple of years? Are there less applications for patents? Do you know?

That's not something I truly know offhand. I assume it's dropped over the past 10 years because of software. Software was accounting for a large portion of the patent applications, and then when the Supreme Court in the Alice decision basically put a kibosh to that, that whole area just dropped off.

OK, that's it. So what can people see? Like, I know people will confuse trademark, copyrights, and patents, right? It's like that's something. So would you mind just taking a minute, uh, to just kind of clarify that so people really understand each of the— those terms, right?

So copyright is more like your entertainment and arts. So it's something you write, it becomes copyrighted. Something you sing, or, you know, comes copyrighted. Artwork, copyrighted. Characters, copyrighted. That's how that works. Um, um, trademarks understand, they, um, they're there to identify a source of goods. So while— take like McDonald's. McDonald's has a very strong trademark. Everyone knows McDonald's everywhere you go, all stuff. And I don't know if you remember the movie Coming to America, the first one. I'm pretty old, I guess, remember that. There was a place called McDowell's, and they kept coming like, hey, you're infringing our trademark. And the reason is, is that even though that trademark is super valued to McDonald's and they are the ones protecting it and doing all the stuff because it is of value to them. The true purpose of a trademark is to protect the public, because when you go into something that looks like McDonald's, smells like McDonald's, you're expecting McDonald's. You want that quality. Now say you went into McDowell's, which was the fictitious restaurant in Coming to America. Say you had a bad experience. It's because you made a quick decision. Something looked like McDonald's, you went in there expecting McDonald's, and you didn't get it. Oh, right. But it's interesting, like, there's other trademarks. I mean, I, I don't know the name of the shoe, but I know that, you know, women like these high heels with the red soles. That red sole is a trademark because everyone knows those shoes are from that, uh, maker or shoe guy. Same thing with Tiffany blue.

Wait, Tiffany blue?

Yeah, like the Tiffany's. You know, the, the—

oh, oh yeah. Oh God, the stain. The, the—

oh yeah, Tiffany Blue. Oh my God, yeah, it strikes fear in the heart of every man out there, right? Like Tiffany Blue, like, whoa, that's so true.

So this is so inter— so, but going back to the 20 years, so, so the— a patent would have been on my favorite thing, but not my— donuts are my favorite thing, but hey, I like a good fried chicken. So Colonel Sanders, right, he had the patent And I mean, I keep going into every office— no, it wasn't a patent. What was it?

Well, I think what he had a patent on, I think— I mean, if I remember the story correctly, he invented a pressure fryer which enabled him to fry chicken much faster than pan-fried or deep-fried. So by adding the pressure, he was able to get batches out more. So he was able to do that, but he wouldn't have been able to patent the— was it 11 herbs and spices? He had to keep that a secret. That's a trade secret. It's kind of like Coca-Cola. No one truly knows what the formula of Coca-Cola is, even though it's been out there for, you know, hundreds of years. I don't know how long it's been out.

Oh, so that— yes. Oh no, it's so interesting. And 20 years goes by fast. I mean, actually, how many companies— what, is there a scramble before they hit the 20th year to re-put in a patent? Like, what, what does the company do if they're really concerned that that patent gets released?

Well, this is, you know, this is the argument with the pharmaceutical companies. So what it is is that they keep going back to that aspirin situation I was telling you. It's like, oh, they have this product, they're doing trials on it, so take Botox. Botox was— I mean, Botox, you can't patent botulism. I mean, that's been there forever. In fact, it's killed a lot of people. Don't eat the cans if the can looks like it's blowing up a little bit, right? I mean, that was what we were taught, um, because that was botulism. But they originally started using it to treat people who had like excessive sweating in their underarms and their palms and stuff like that. Oh, they realized was these wrinkles are going away, so they were able to patent the— and then, you know, it may have been years later that they figured out, oh, it does wrinkles. So treating wrinkles, they were able to patent botulism to do that.

So that is so interesting. So do you think there's like people scrambling right now to take Tylenol and, and repatent it for before those with whatever that— whatever there was a discussion, I can't remember now, with the discussion regarding that another use for it or don't, don't use it, it causes Autism, right?

Right.

I mean, okay, so was it—

that wouldn't really be something for patents. It's more of, no, what can you do, not what can't you do.

Okay, that's good. I mean, I think my questions are really a, like, naturally, like, I think as a business person, we really— unless you really have the opportunity— I've seen patents in the promotional products industry, logo merchandise industry, where people have something so unique and they've patented it. And I've always been like, okay, what's going to happen? What happens at 20 years? How are you keeping it? But I see now why sometimes a little change is made and then that kind of starts you back to zero?

Well, I mean, if the change is patentable. So, um, so in order to be patentable, you need to be, one, useful; two, novel, like totally new. So little changes will get you past the novel bar, but the other thing is it can't be obvious. The change cannot be obvious. So, you know, if you're adding something and it makes total sense to add that, anyone, if they really would have thought about it, would have added that. Or the prior art teaches that, you know, adding element B, you know, increases something. So say you have a knife that— oh, I have a knife, okay, that's the prior art. Then you put a can opener on the end of it. You know, it's not something necessarily, you know, totally obvious, but according to the Patent Office, I'm sure they would say, hey, This is in the kitchen. It's in the area. It would have been beneficial to have a bottle opener on the end of a knife.

That is so interesting. Hi, Mary Kim. How are you? I'm great.

How are you? Excited to be here and learn. Thank you, Adrian.

Oh, no, you're fine. This is such an interesting conversation with Attorney Bonderer on patents. Have you ever thought of having a patent?

Um, I don't— I mean, who knows what comes for the future, but my, uh, the pacifier business I'm part of, um, the, the pacifier itself is patented. I know that pacifier cover.

Yeah, I would say that in general, the, the baby— like, the people that typically called me the most out of the blue were always new parents or pet owners, and they're always thinking of— there's got to be better ways of doing this. So yeah, there's—

oh wow, that's my friend who had the— like, there had to be a better way to cover the pacifier that her daughter loved, which was attached to a small stuffed animal. So she created one.

Oh, I love that, Mary Kim. I love that. Let me know if you have any questions because I, I've, I've asked a lot of questions as someone who like really has no clue about patents. And understanding them. So that's, that's a cool story. I love that, Mary Kim. I'm kind of curious. OK, so what was a patent attorney bonder that you absolutely loved and you were— they were awarded it and like, where is it today? Are you able to share any of your— are you able to share the actual product itself or just a story?

Well, I mean, like, I really enjoy all my clients and the ones that do it and they move forward. And, you know, I would say that most of the patents that I work with, they are, how do you say, like very niche in their market. So it's not stuff that you would see every day, but it's things that makes people's lives better. One of the things was, is when I was first at the patent office, my first day I sat in an interview and it was the, it was the guy who invented, you know, the, the hand, like the foam soap dispenser.

Okay, I use it.

That wasn't around when I first started, and this guy came in the office, argued with the patent examiner, won, and got a patent on that. And then you can only imagine these— I mean, it's in so many of our, you know, soap dispensers now.

That's so funny. And the other day I actually looked to see like, how do you make like Dawn foam? And then it just looks so complicated. I just bought 2 more bottles, you know, because now they have the dishwashers, the dish spray, but Personally, I love foam soap. So that— oh, wow, that must have been a great meeting. Austin, Mary Kim actually worked as a patent examiner. So it's just so cool. How many hours would you put into one patent that you're reviewing? Is it like a ton of hours?

So it can be. So there are certain— every art has different hours for that they allot you as an examiner to spend on. It's actually a production-based business. You have to meet production, and basically what it is, you have X number of cases or actions you need to take within a certain amount of time. But there, there are arts out there that are so complicated that they will give you weeks to do one case. And then we have other arts where, no, you got like 5 hours, and that means searching, reviewing, writing, and examining, and, you know, those kind of things. So it just depends upon the art, what you're supposed to do.

Oh, let's— before we go, can we give like homework? Like, let's just say Mary Kim's like, you know what, I'm really thinking about this. What should they— before they call you, because I think you're amazing, so I definitely want to recommend you to anyone, um, and just get a feeling for Attorney Bonderer's personality, because to me that's the first thing. And I love that you start off that way, getting to know someone. And I'm in Florida, by the way, Daytona Beach. But, but my question to you is, what does someone need to do before they pick up the phone and are like, I have this product, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? What would you like for them to do, the homework that they need to do before they call you?

OK, I tell people, I understand your invention is your baby and you love your baby and you want to show your baby. You want to tell everybody about. Don't tell anybody, just keep it quiet. Talk to the attorney first. If you want to talk about how beautiful your baby is, call an attorney because he can't tell anybody, and that's considered confidential. Uh, getting a lot of issues where, you know, people are very excited, but sometimes they don't know what they have until someone tells them, hey, that's a really great idea, maybe you should look at the patent. Disclosure kills patents, so you need to be wary of that. And then the one thing that, you know, the advice that I always give is because people ask, how do I know if I have possibly have an invention or something I should look at? I'm like, did you solve a problem? And when you solved a problem, that's generally where invention lies because you may have solved a problem that others have been trying to fix or didn't even know was a problem, and then you fixed it for them.

Well, okay, the— okay, so But people, you, you hear that a lot of times, right? Like, like, okay, I've had people say to me, I have an idea I want to, especially in the promo business, but I'm going to send you an NDA. And I'm like, okay, send me your ChatGPT NDA or LegalZoom, and then I'll sign it. But I'm always like, first of all, I'm not going to share it anyways. But what would happen? I share and they tell me something, and I'm talking to Mary Kim, and I'm like, oh my God, that 5-sided toothbrush is unbelievable. And, you know, once Joe makes it, I'm going to be buying his toothbrushes all over the place. And Mary Kim's like, 5 sides? Why do you need that? And I say, oh my God, because it cleans the back of your throat and goes down your esophagus. And it's so amazing. Like, so what ends up with that? Like, can I get— like, you didn't follow your NDA and you just like shared it. I don't even know what that means.

Disclosure is disclosure. It's not like the Patent Office is going to say, well, you were covered on your NDA and this person disclosed it. So if they disclose it, you could be in trouble. Now, the one thing about the United States that, you know, I don't want to scare people off too much, because once, uh, the United States is— I think the only country doesn't, I'm not positive, but it's cool in most industrialized countries, it doesn't— if there's public disclosure, you have a year to file for a patent application. But the NDA, like someone disclosed and they were covered under an NDA, doesn't protect you of the patents. You could sue them That's what you have. You have— they broke a contract, but the effect of that is not necessarily, you know, absolved because it was covered under an NDA, because you as the inventor didn't disclose it, but you disclosed it to someone who did. That's disclosure.

Interesting. So really, don't even offer an NDA, because now I'm thinking about it, I probably should have said no, right? Because what if, what if I didn't disclose it, but they only, they only showed 3 people? Now they're going to be like, well, Adrian, it must be you because the other who said they didn't do it?

Well, I mean, the, the— okay, so a lot of— I always tell people, if you need consulting and stuff like that, sign the NDA. Get NDA signed. Get NDA signed for everyone that you want to discuss this with. Now understand, you can't just go to your friend and say, hey, sign this NDA, because if they're not giving you something in return, that's not truly a contract. That's just a promise, and promises are unenforceable in law. Only contracts are. So if you're going to tell a friend, offer them $10 for their opinions back and make sure the NDA makes that clear. Um, the other part is— I'm sorry, I was thinking. Um, so a lot of times inventors want to go to VCs, you know, venture capitalists and all stuff. They see so many things, they refuse to sign an NDA. And a lot of companies refuse to sign NDAs because they've gotten caught in the past. Because say that, uh, the LA office signs an NDA with an inventor in LA, and they're like, you know what, we really don't like your idea, but someone in the New York office is actually working on it and likes the idea. Eventually the company comes out with the product. Guess what happens? Even though the people in New York never knew anything about the guy in LA, The company is held to the NDA, and therefore the company gets sued. So they're just kind of like, we're not even going to deal with that anymore.

Okay, that's kind of what in my mind was thinking, like, it is— it can be risky, right? And, or what if I did have a product? What if they did come to me and they don't know that I actually just did that product? Like, I have it now, they're sharing something with me that I really shouldn't know.

No, I guess there's generally, there's generally like stipulations in the NDAs as things that, you know, you already knew are excluded. You know, it's their information is confidential, not yours. But okay, you might be begging yourself, or, you know, they might not believe you. I gave you my idea and you literally were working on the exact same thing, you know. But sometimes that happens because you're dealing with people in the same industry. You know, you want—

right, that's what I'm wondering.

Yeah, if you want consultation from somebody, they better have experience in that area, otherwise their advice isn't really worth anything.

Okay, one last question. So now I have a product, I see it, I find it, I see it's in an area, it's like almost like an open patent, like nobody really has a patent, they had one years ago, it's closed. Am I able to just grab that? Is it open or will ever become another you know, even with some minor changes, would it become a patent again under someone else's name?

Well, the changes would have to be unobvious, but if you find a patent that has expired, you should be covered for everything that's in that patent within a certain context. If it's gone the full 20, you know, with the assumption that all these other ones have expired too, because there isn't inside pool, but talk to a patent attorney. But generally, if you find something that's over 20-some-odd years old, you should be able to do whatever was described in there. Now, when you start adding and tinkering and changing things, then you might be running afoul of newer patents.

Okay, so Attorney Bonder, I like to put rope in my teeth and then I pull the door and I shut the door. That's how I pull out my own teeth. When I feel like playing dentist sometimes. I mean, I don't need to go to dentist. I mean, can you just share with people how, like, you know, because I'm thinking to myself, I don't need a patent attorney. I'll just use ChatGPT. It'll help me. It'll file my— no, but seriously, explain to people why DIY probably is not their smartest choice. Like, don't try to pull teeth and be a dentist.

I'm not— I mean, that's an interesting question because I have had clients come up to me as like, hey, I had ChatGPT write this up. Application for me, would you review it and then submit it? And I'm like, one, if I go through it, generally the amount of time that it takes for me to fix it or put it in the form that I find to be proper takes more time than if I just wrote it myself. Two, you're— you know, they say that when you put stuff in the ChatGPT, it's not disclosing it to ChatGPT, but I don't know. I don't I personally feel like you are disclosing it, and that's the problem. You're disclosing things to the largest knowledge base out there. And until a court comes out and says this is not disclosure, I'm not doing it.

So that's a great answer. Yeah, that is a great answer. Be very careful what you put into whatever you're using if it's OpenAI, right? Because it could steal that idea that I have read that.

Well, it's, it's LL. I mean, it's learning language models, right? They learn. So when you're putting stuff in there, they're learning from what you're saying. Once you put that information in there— now, I'm no expert on it. Maybe, maybe it's closed off, maybe it's not. But for me, I'm not willing to take that chance. So, and I think you can pay to have it closed off and this kind of stuff, but most people— okay, yeah, but I don't know, I don't trust it, I'm not going to do it.

I mean, like, for the last 400 days, I put in Adrian Barker is absolutely wonderful, Adrian Barker does this And then hopefully if Mary Kim goes in and says, tell me about Adrian Barker, they're going to say, Mary Kim, here's everything you need to know. Mary Kim, before we close out, do you have a question?

I don't have a question. Sorry, it's so loud. My son just got home and he's feeding. No, I love the advice with the ChatGPT because yeah, the what-if aspect, right? If someone says, hey, I'm looking for a patent for something that's similar to yours, they may just pull up that patent information. So that's— yeah, that's, uh, like, oh, that what if, right? It's not worth the chance to take that on that. So I love that. And then also about, um, with the different companies, uh, let's say you have one in New York, one in Jersey, right? It's just like, yeah, yeah, all those things. So I'm so glad I popped in here. Sorry for the background noise.

You're so sweet, Mary Kim. I, I love Mary Kim Mods rooms. And she's such a good moderator. You could hear it in her voice, always listening and reflecting back. I love that about you, Mary Kim. This is so Chatter Social, and Kim's right there, and you and I are right there. We're all on it because we believe in the founder, Nelson Apega, who we love, who created this app where you could go on, you could teach. We could have, you know, rooms like this.

It's—

and we built a relationship. So I met Mary Kim. Back in February. So it's not just like regular social media. It's, it's really because you can hear the voice, you could see people, and we love that. And there's all kinds of rooms. But I'm excited to have you. I have, I'm working on my next book. So this is Unscripted Brilliance, 16 of my guests in a book. I don't know if you are in any books or not as a contributing author, because I know you have done some great podcast interviews. And I'm so glad you said yes to me. So thank you so much. Is there anything that you wish I asked that I did not ask?

No, I think we pretty much covered it. I guess the only thing for people is, look, you know, if you think you have an invention, you're interested in it, contact an attorney. Generally it's free, free advice. You get to hear, you know, the typical spiel. Yeah, maybe you'll get to— maybe it's something you want to move forward with.

So I just— everyone I have right now, love it, love it, love the website. Beautiful. Oh, he's so cute. My gosh, I love this. So, um, so you've got your partnership.

You—

so you could work with Attorney Bonderer from any location. Here he is. Oh, this is— oh, this is amazing right here. Wow, wow, wow, wow. So globally. So here you have the— I said I don't, I don't review things beforehand, but Oh, this is interesting. You guys go to his website, look at it right here. So you've got all the information. You are over in Tampa. We'll have to let Mary Lynn know. She's with the Tarpon Springs Chamber of Commerce. Really, really cool what you do here and your patent insights. There's videos here that you guys can watch. So check this out. So you want to go to the website and it'll be in my notes, it'll be in the show notes. And right now for the live, it's and the information. Wow. And you don't have enough socials. This is fantastic. I love the phone number. I love how— this is great. This is a nice looking website. Kudos. Oh, look at— oh, don't fall for the—

oh, oh, I have a YouTube channel and stuff like that. You can go through and learn a bunch of things. I probably have 90 videos at least or something like that.

Oh, look at this. Oh, okay. I just want to subscribe before I go out. Oh, awesome. Oh, I love— oh, this is cool. This is a whole really cool information. Thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. This has been fun. I'm going to get this produced quickly, and, uh, I really appreciate your being here. So thank you so much.

Well, thank you for having me. I've had a great time.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mary Kim. I'm going to close that out. Thank you. Thank you.

And nice meeting you.

Nice meeting you.

Thank you.

So sweet. All right, well, that's it. We're ending the stream. This has been great. Wow, what a great conversation. I really have to digest a lot of it. I'm gonna go, uh, be your stalker now. I have like 15 of your socials to connect with, so I will have that done by the end of the month.