Meet Wes Towers

You are good, Wes. We're live! Welcome back to Adrienne Barker Speaks. I'm so excited.

Wes is coming all the way from Australia, Melbourne, uh, or just outside of Melbourne, a place called Geelong. So, uh, yeah, I'm jolly.

I'm saying, oh, do you know the Animal Kingdom, the TNT show about the Australian family? And it circulates around the Codys, who are crime A lot of, a lot of leadership lessons in crime organizations, but it was a show on Netflix and I just loved it. But I also love just like everything. Like, I, I actually love Australian shows. Okay, so we know 3 things about you, Wes. Otherwise, I have no clue who you are. Wes is brave, bold, and brilliant. And I think he— hello, husband! I think that Wes is going to teach us some information. And I had to say, Wes, just like I tell ChatGPT, I'm gonna say to Wes, Wes, I need you to teach me like, um, well, like a 9-year-old. So not as young as a 6, but not as smart as a teenager. Okay, I think maybe I was in 5th grade at 9, so teach me like I'm a 5th grader. So anyways, welcome, welcome, welcome, Wes. Introduce yourself. I'm excited to have you.

Fantastic. It's really good to be here and what a great opportunity to speak to the global— we're just down here in Melbourne, Australia, just, and I'm in a small town, so it's good to have a global reach through platforms like this. But I'm, yeah, so I'm Wes from Uplift 360. We do websites and search engine optimization, or we're calling it search everywhere optimization because the world's grown to be a crazy place with AI and social media and there's so many places online these days that businesses need to show up. So that's what we're doing it for. And we really niche into the trades and construction industries. That's who we serve the most. However, the principles that I tend to talk about on podcasts and so on apply to any industry really. So it's been a fun time to be alive in business with AI transforming the way we work, the way we do things so we can streamline things a whole lot faster. But also the challenges that it presents with the way in which people interact with the internet. And so certainly in the space we play in, making websites and getting found online, it's a changing dynamic. It's a scary and exciting space to work in right now.

I love that. So actually my book that just came out is an example of AI because Sheila Slick, the founder of Pod to Book, literally took my— she created an app so that your podcast interviews can be turned into a book. But it's not a transcript, it's a narrative, it's a story. So it won't pick up like our— like, you know, my talking or anything about me. It picks up everything that you're saying and what you're offering. So very, very cool. So I love that. But this couldn't have been done with just ChatGPT because AI still isn't perfected. Or maybe you have to pay the $200 or whatever the price is there. Um, so I'm finding there is such limitations. So first of all, I have this burning question to ask you. What is it— what is it called, and is it legal in Australia when someone goes onto a website, looks for something, and then leaves, and then afterwards sends an email to that person that was on their website?

Yes, so just so I understand correctly, so you, for example, if you were to visit a website and then all of a sudden you receive emails, is that what you mean?

Yes, yes.

Yeah, so you meant it's the Spam Act, and it is different from nation to nation, but generally speaking, if you've made some form of contact— I'm no legal expert, so I can't advise for around the world as well, particularly. But if there's been a disclosure that you have parted ways with your email address, and you'll receive emails, so that's perfectly fine. They do need to have an opt-out opportunity. So oftentimes you'll be baited with some sort of free offer in exchange for your email address, and I suppose that's these days realistically people understand that it's not a free offer, it's giving away part of your information and that means you'll likely end up on an email database and likely start to receive emails. But it's my understanding nearly everywhere in the world requires a really simple opt-out opportunity so people can say they no longer want to receive those emails. So And it is an interesting point you raise because more and more are we having less trust in organizations, particularly those in which we engage with purely online, that we don't really know who they are, what their intents are. And AI is partly fueling that because it is so easy these days to produce a website and content and information, but we don't know the authenticity of that information. So there's that immediate lack of trust and concern when engaging and particularly sharing some of your private information. So yeah, so it's a, it's a really important point you raise. So building that trust and authenticity, so when you do engage and part ways with some of your information, it's, it's really important.

So tell me, Wes, thank you, that is good information. I feel like you're gonna— I'm gonna have a lot of questions. So, um, give me your elevator pitch like I was 9 and you're teaching 5th graders.

Yeah, and so from my— just to cover that, so I really do try and keep it down to earth and practical. So whilst we're providing technical outcomes for, for people, we're working with trades and construction people who are not necessarily, um, all that tech savvy. Now they're brilliant, um, brilliant minds who work in the field that in which they work, and so Oftentimes they started as an apprentice in the skill set that they're working towards, and then they're fully qualified, and then they work their way into some form of leadership role in a company doing the thing that they've always done, but in leadership. And then eventually they often will start a company. And so they're great at what they do, but then they bring alongside people like us who are tech savvy to do the website. So The elevator pitch, I suppose, would be we, we make websites and get and help them get found everywhere online so the business can, can flourish. And we do it for trades and construction businesses.

I love the industry. I love that niche. A lot of growth where you are. Is that like— I know it's— I know you're a national company, global, but is it, um, right where you are, is there also a lot of growth, a lot of new businesses? Are you doing local work for your local contractors?

Yeah, so there's obviously a few local style contractors. There's also national companies at a bigger scale, and there's even international companies when we're looking at building materials as part of the construction industry. So it's really across the board, the size and scale of the companies, but they all have similar needs. And you touch on an interesting thing, so The economy here is, is probably similar in a whole lot of places in the world in that there's a real cost of living crisis. And what that means is there's less money to be spent and therefore businesses of all sizes eventually are affected in some way. And so working with construction particularly, we've had, we had a really big boom time for a number of years where everyone had heaps of work. And so they're even able to turn away work and just be really selective and not return phone calls and get really sloppy in some instances with that sort of thing, just because there was so many opportunities. But that's changed tremendously. I mean, building prices have gone through the roof, you know, construction, building materials, the cost of building, and all the other trades. So there's a whole lot less work out there. So For many years, people let their websites kind of fade into the background because they didn't really need to push their marketing. The business was self-sustaining and there was more than— there's just an abundance of work. Then we came into this time where it's a little bit more challenging and construction companies going out of business, other businesses struggling as well. And so all of a sudden everyone needed to push their marketing efforts a little bit more. So they're revamping their websites. They're looking at being found in the new platforms, not just Google, but looking to be found in the AI platforms as well. And people have a conversation with their AI preferred platform and they want to be found in all these places so that they can grow their businesses because they need to fight a little bit harder to get the business flowing through. So challenging times for a lot of businesses, but opportunities for us to come alongside and support them to grow. And to be sustainable for the long term.

You know, I was telling you before we started— I'm sorry, my dog, sometimes I have to mic and yell at them. But so I was saying to you that I have a 2-day event coming up and it's a SWOT: Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats. And it's so funny you're saying that because I never understood that in business. One of the biggest things and the threat that could happen is that you could start losing the business. So you constantly— there's, there's no excuse like that. Like, well, I'm so busy, I get sloppy. We're not answering the phone calls. I've seen that happen, right? You make a phone call, you have an inquiry, and then like 2 years later, like, I asked you about that 2 years ago, you're just getting back to me. That's crazy. So yeah, it doesn't make sense not to keep something up because that threat will always be there. Something could always happen in a business. Your marketing is one of the most important things to do, and getting your name out there I, I literally don't— I'm trying, like, trying to understand how a company would be like, oh, let me let that go. But so now they're realizing, because now is the time to say, okay, now we've got the competition back again, right? We have to be competitive. And so you want— what makes you different than all the other, uh, is it web developers? What is its correct terminology?

Yeah, so we're a digital agency, but we specialize in website design development and search engine or search everywhere optimization. Organization. So we make websites, we get them found online, so effectively is what we're doing. So, um, the, uh, it's become challenging times, uh, challenges and opportunities with AI and the rise of AI, because it can help you produce content at mass. But what that means is lots of people can do the same. So there's just a flood of information out there on all platforms. You'll see it on socials and websites and everywhere else. There's just an abundance of information, but it's oftentimes just generic and bland, and it's kind of all the same because they're going about it in the same manner to produce the information. And, you know, for example, do you use ChatGPT or anything like that?

Do I use— first of all, if you could be nice about it, his name is Barry. So do I use Barry Bot from ChatGPT? Yeah, I use Barry all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a team of AI people that I don't even know.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's right. And so we use the bots and so on, but they're effectively all the same. So what people might do is write content through these tools, but if you leave it just to the tool to come up with the content, so you just say, I want an article about XYZ, part of your service offering, then it comes out fairly generic because what else is it to do? It's just going to pull in information from everywhere and distill it down into a piece of content, and it will read reasonably well, and it'll have information that feels kind of good quality writing and so on.

Like you read it before, maybe, though?

Yeah, but it's all the same and generic and bland. So really, businesses need to really start to consider what makes them unique and distinct and to be compelling. So it's sometimes almost to be a heretic, almost, if you would say. So if you can do something that's slightly different in your industry that no one else is doing, or you have a belief or a skill set or a set of values that is uniquely yours, they're the messages you need to start sharing. Now, sometimes if you do become unique and share a different perspective, Sometimes people will dislike it and you'll attract a whole bunch of haters. That's fine. You'll also attract a whole bunch of people who really resonate and like what you're communicating and your angle and how you do business and those sorts of things. So you'll attract the right people getting your unique message out there. If you just go with a generic message, it adds nothing new to the conversation. Therefore, it's unlikely to ever show up in Google. It's unlikely to ever show up in an AI platform, a large language model, just because it's the same as everybody else. But once you start to consider being unique and distinct and having something valuable to share, then all of a sudden you'll be found. And so that's what we're helping our clients to uncover in themselves as founder-led businesses. Oftentimes it's for a business, it's often the thoughts and values are a reflection of the founder themselves because that's how we tend to build business. So to understand the founder, their heart and motives and what they're wanting to do can really fuel and accelerate their growth. So that's what we're helping them to do. We publish that information through their blog, so we'll understand what they do precisely, but also the tone in which they communicate. So building out really just quality style guides for writing content, for example, so everything is the same and styled in their unique way. So it's not that generic stuff because we're just all getting overwhelmed, aren't we? I think everyone could agree that there's just so much information, it's hard to discriminate what's quality and who's a quality provider and who's not because it's all the same. So you've got to create points of difference.

I agree with you. It's funny, for myself, I use ChatGPT, but I feed it my content. Like, I have, I'll have an idea I have a lot of ideas. I have an idea. And I was like, wait, what leadership lessons can we get from TV sitcoms? And then I created a workshop because I'm on Clubhouse, which is a national— actually, we have a lot of people from Australia on Clubhouse and Chatter Social. And so I do an hour workshop each week on both of them. And I'm like, okay, what am I going to talk about? But I refuse to let AI give me topics, though I will tell you for my clients, Once I have that project built up, I'll say, you know, hey, can I— but for myself, I want to be different. And actually, the event next week is very different. It's 2 days, 18 speakers, multi-stream, and will end up being a podcast and also a book. But I wanted to share something else with you. I, I actually created— and I think, oh wow, such a big deal, but it really doesn't matter unless you're right. I want haters. Can you hate this? Please hate this idea. Here's my idea. I want you to hate it. It's already got 12 episodes. It's the first— I can say that— the first AI-powered debate podcast using NotebookLM, and in the etiquette industry. So I know that there's other ones, but in the professional global etiquette industry, that's the only one. So I'm taking, like, do you interrupt, and all these different things, and then I'm putting it through that. Oh my God, I love it. and then you get that little video with the Google Notebook LM, and then I use that for YouTube. So I am loving that. I need some haters though.

I love that concept of creating a set of ideas and concepts, but then repurpose, like that book idea, the podcast to a book. That's brilliant because once you've figured out the core message and something's uniquely yours. It's a matter— AI can be brilliant at taking those sets of ideas and repurposing it into different platforms. So say, for example, even a podcast like we're doing right now. I mean, from a podcast, you can make Reels really quickly and simply. So it's still the videos and so on, but it's adjusted to suit the platforms where attention span is a whole lot less. You know, on TikTok, it might be a few seconds.

You can raise my hand. I'm raising my hand. Oh yeah, sorry, um, I disagree with you because I still have trouble making Reels and videos off of it. It's not easy. It's easy for you to say it's easy, but it's not really easy for other people. I, you know, like, I find that's so— that's the interesting part. But the same thing with like LinkedIn. Some people don't know LinkedIn. I'm like, okay, good, I'm good at LinkedIn but not good at Reels. But I want to take this conversation another direction, if you don't mind. I would like for you to share couple things I would like you to share. The importance of— tell the viewers why you do not say yes when someone offers you a free website. Like, I'll do your website for you for free. What should you do and where do you run away from? Like, how far do you go?

Yeah, that— well, that's a— that's an interesting point. So free can be very expensive when you— when you, um, think about it. For a number of reasons, one of them being that if a website isn't doing what it's intended to do, and most of the time it's to generate business somehow, so it might be either bringing in inquiries, requesting quotes, or it could be selling directly on the website, depends on the nature of the business. If it's not producing the outcome it intended whilst you had a free website, you're missing out on the opportunity of having a great website that that does the very thing. So there's opportunity cost. That's right off the bat. There's a cost there, opportunity cost, opportunities lost. So that's one thing. But also, people are in business to make money themselves and they need to be rewarded for that. So if someone's offering a free website, you've got to think through, okay, well, what's in it for them? Because realistically, it needs to be a win-win for everybody. The person receiving the service, but also the company needs to be rewarded somehow. So you've got to think through, okay, well, what's their real reward in this? Because there's probably something hidden that you're not quite sure about. I've seen it a fair few times where people get a low— not a free website, but a low-cost website, perceived to be low-cost in the first instance. But there was a lady, for example, who built a fairly cheap website, but the cost per month was per page in her website. And so that was great when it was just 5 pages. It might have been $5 or $10 per page per month sort of thing. So she might have even only had 3 or 4 pages to start with, just the basic, basic website. But then she started to add news blog posts. And so what she didn't realize is every time she added a new post, they were charging an extra $5. And so she was publishing weekly. And so she did that for, for a few years. You can imagine what the cost per month escalated to be. And the problem with that is it was building a proprietary software system. So her website was— she was locked into that. So she couldn't just take her website elsewhere and have it, um, someone else look after it from there on. It was built-in proprietary software, so she was locked in. So these are part of the challenges that when you, you don't really kind of consider the true cost for the long term. Or the other factor is when you build in the proprietary software that seems low cost or free initially, once you want to start adding new features and functions down the track— and it always happens, people build a website today and it does what they need it to do for the short term, but eventually things change. Online changes so fast, new opportunities, you want to introduce something new. If you're locked into the same provider to do the thing, well, that's when you would start to see that the costs really amplify because, you know, they know you're locked in and they've got you, they've got you cheap or free, but now you're locked into a system and then that's when they start to make the money. Everyone needs to make money in business, so just think that through and think about what the long-term costs are and the risks of missing out on opportunities as well.

So you're locked in. So wait, let's go through that because now you're locked in. So Wes, I just want to teach people why you don't do this, because they're getting as many emails and thinking, oh, okay, I'll have you do that. Okay. I would not. Yes, maybe I would give my keys to someone who would help me with my house and keeping it up to date. I would give my keys. But in essence, you're locked in. And that person, what happens? How do you know the person that created— what if they got hit by a bus? What if they ghosted you, which is so easy, and you have a free website and they just took it on you, and then they could sell it to someone else, your competition. Like, I don't understand why— like, to me, that is such a huge threat to ever let— so I love your— you could tell you're such a nice guy because you're like thinking, oh, you know, people— and I do agree with you, you deserve to be paid for what you're doing, but you're not like— I'm like the one that's going, wait a second, people will steal, they'll take it from you, they can set up a, a credit card and people are thinking they're working with you. I mean, you, if you cannot find, like, who knows, right? So I just think it's so much better to just say no. I don't want to pay for my website.

Yeah, well, that's true too. So that's another touchpoint that you mentioned. So the ownership of the site itself. So who owns it? And so I've seen, it's rare, but I've seen instances where people have been paying a subscription fee for the website, but when they dig deep, the company who provided it says they own the website still. And so when they do want to take the content elsewhere, for example, they say, well, that was just on subscription model and so you don't own it. And so all of that effort and ranked, all the work you've done to try and rank really highly for the content, so to show up in Google, et cetera, it's all potentially lost if if someone else owns all the content. So there's so many risks. I mean, you really want to own the site. Now, you don't own the software necessarily outright, but there's open source software. So that's open source software like WordPress. We build all our websites in WordPress. So the core of that is open for anyone to use and apply to their businesses. So we customize the design and create custom creative designs, et cetera.

You do custom templates? Like, I don't even know the right wording.

Yeah, yeah, set up the themes and— oh, thanks. Yeah, so they set up the design and the theme according to their, their brand and their style of what they want to do. But there's software behind it that you can— so you have WordPress as like the core, that's where it's built in, but then there's plugins which add features and functions that might be specific for a business. And so some of that might be commercial, but it might be from the software providers. It's usually generally pretty low cost as well. But the, the beauty of building in a platform like WordPress, which is open source, is say for example if I did get hit by a bus and the business closed because it's found the business is founder-led, it's me and a team. But, you know, if I were to disappear, maybe the business would disappear as well. So you really want the ability to take your website to another provider, or, or if you didn't like me for some reason, something went wrong, you know, hopefully wouldn't, but you've got that flexibility to take your website and take it to some other web developer who can further improve, enhance, change as well. Evolve.

Yeah.

And you don't ever want to get yourself locked and trapped.

I, I had a GoDaddy site, but I turned my two into websites. All right, there's a problem with this website right now. I just want to share with you.

What's that?

It's, it's way too fascinating. It is ridiculous. I feel like I, I'm like, first of all, I'm like, wait, some of these guys, are they wearing something? Him right there, wait, what if you fall? And then I'm like, it's— oh, it's not that far. This is fascinating. This is something you just want to keep watching. I think it's on a loop, but wow.

Yeah, so yeah, we're mostly for the construction industry and that's why we've got that construction footage. But someone did point out to me Um, it doesn't meet— the guys working on that site don't meet the Australian, uh, safety standards.

I'm like, wait, they could fall. I also, um, wow, you— the steel— because steel has gone up in price, family. Okay, I'm— I— sorry guys, I want to show this. So now, you know what's funny too? Can you share, um, Wes, how often did you double-check and do— what is it called when you, um, review your own website? Do your own— like, I can't think of the right word right now, but that is so important because I will do this on StreamYard with people and I'm like, oh, this, this link's not working, this is an error, this is this, this and that. They're like, whoa. But if that's happening and here you have me just being innocent and trying to like show it off, and then all of a sudden, like this morning I was trying to book a strategy call, I'm like, I can't. I found it, but it was, it was a little harder. So, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the website maintenance, because things do change and it's sort of outside— there's my calendar booking.

I know, I love your calendar. I wanted to show that for a second because I, I think that's, uh, that's okay. So answer that question because I have, I have some questions.

Yeah, well, things break, so that's the, the website maintenance, maintenance does become important for for a couple of reasons. Security, so there'll be security updates, but also performance updates and things that are outside your control. So they, you know, people build a website and think they'll just leave it untouched for years, you know, to come, but software changes and, you know, things become hackable. So that's always an ongoing risk. So you need to keep the software updated for sure. And even browsers change as well. So browsers, like you might be in Chrome, I think it was, or some of the others have their own little bugs that you have to work around. It's not, it's not the website's fault as such, it's the bug in the latest Chrome.

Or they can break, right? It breaks, it breaks, and then all of a sudden you're like, it was working. Audit is a word.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. From time to time you need to go through and audit the, audit the website. And you do the other thing too, some oftentimes if you're blogging, for example, or you're creating news, you might reference and link to other websites and they change their websites, all of a sudden that link is broken because they've stuffed around with their website. Oh man, it's crazy. The Australian government websites are notorious for it. So some businesses need to reference the government sites for credibility, credentials, and all that sort of stuff, and they link through. But the government sites, They're a nightmare. They just keep changing things and things move and they're big and bloated and people can't find anything. It's just a nightmare. You link through to the right spot and then it's broken all the time. It's frustrating. These things you need to keep on top of to make sure everything's linking through to the right places at the right time. It's an ongoing challenge for— well, it keeps me in business in some ways. Things need to keep evolving.

So if you're listening, we're on the website. I'm looking at it, it's really fascinating. So uplift360.com.au, and then I love it, and then you have your lead magnet, your construction marketing KPIs tracker, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, I love that. Get the checklist. Oh, let's just check it and see if it— yep. Oh, I love it. Oh, oh, okay, I'm not gonna fill that out, but, um, I love that. Okay, you have the bot here. Is this a real person? Yeah, I can't see it.

It's just off my screen now.

Oh yeah, it's a little like pop-up, but yet there's a hi there.

Yeah, they are the, yeah, the bot in the corner here. So that's AI-driven as well. It just, it'll answer basic questions, but its intent is to try and get a meeting booked. And so that's great. I've even got AI a receptionist now answering phone calls. Um, interesting. Yeah, I did it as an experiment really, just because I felt as though I should be knowing about this sort of stuff being in the tech world and so on. And I thought I'd just leave it on for the short term just to see as an experiment, see what would happen. But it worked really well. So it had— it has, um, a basic conversation, finds out a person's needs. It'll, it'll put them straight through if, if it's, um, it's obvious that it needs to be dealt with by humans straight away. So something—

but I think that makes sense.

Yeah, but it'll, it'll guide someone to book a meeting if they want a more substantial, um, conversation, uh, as well. So it's been working really, really well. I thought there would be a lot of resistance to it, but the way I look at it is it's kind of a step for forward from when you call up and it says press 1 for blah, blah, blah, press 2 for blah, blah, blah. It's kind of a step up from that because you can just say, I want to speak to someone for a website audit, for example. And I'll say, oh, that's great. Would you like to book a meeting? And they might say, oh no, I want to talk. Can I talk to someone right away? And they'll say, yeah, sure. And then I'll put it through to me.

You help put all that in. You make sure that as part of your package, you're putting all the questions that could be possibly asked into that. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, these systems are getting easier and easier to, to build out as well. So I mean, AI receptionist isn't going to be suitable, suited to every industry and business, but I mean, for— I was looking at it from our client's perspective, more the smaller trades, uh, contractors type businesses, they can't answer the phone lots of times if it's a small thing. So, you know, they might be busy on the tools, they can't answer. So a system like that, at least they're not missing the calls and they can deal with them appropriately when once they get off the tools and have time to do so.

Got it. Okay, I'm 9, remember, just 9. My birthday is not for another year. Explain why you should have a privacy policy and how is it important? Is it not important?

There's, yeah, different, different legal requirements around the world, uh, are required. So I just get the, the lawyer that I use to put mine together. But yeah, certainly it's a requirement for them, for nearly everyone in, in the world. If curiously enough, Australian law is a little bit easier with that kind of thing than, than some other, some other places. So I mean, we don't have to have a cookie, cookies notification, which most of the world seems to need. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I was— wait, because privacy policy, like, years ago used to be like— I remember saying, well, I don't— I'm not collecting any emails from anyone. Why do I need a privacy policy? I'm literally on purpose not trying to collect. But then the cookies, and they're not chocolate chip either, those cookies. So I saw that on your privacy policy. So not needed in Australia, but I think, is that needed in the United States?

Yeah, just the different levels. I think it's— these things are needed. So I mean, yeah, there's, there's great ways that you can find a lot of these things, free templates as well that people can use. Um, but yeah, the local, the local, um, country will guide exactly what you need. So it's something you just do, and, and, um, you want to be compliant in every area of business where you can. Sometimes, sometimes there's challenges if people are using third-party platforms to house some of their, their information. And most of us use CRMs and so on, and software that's, you know, online software. And so some of that privacy information needs to be considered as well. Who's, who's got that information? Where's that database actually held? And, and so on.

So before we close, I want to ask you regarding accessibility. Part of next week on the first day, on the 14th at 5:00 PM Eastern time, we're having a panel of experts that are, I think, regarding accessibility on websites, making sure that it can be read by everyone. That there's a description. Like, so how do you make sure— is that— and I think that's a requirement here in the United States, like being ADA compliant, if I got the right wording. I can't wait to learn next week on the, on the panel. But what, what about in Australia? What does that look like? Does it matter?

Yeah, the accessibility, you should do it as just a general— as a, as a good principle to follow anyway. Um, it It can be challenging, even the words. I mean, you said it a couple of times, to explain it like you're 9 years old. The accessibility oftentimes will even get down to the language in which you're using. So that's a really challenging point because they're wanting, oftentimes depends on the nation you're in, to write in a way that anyone, even someone who's maybe impaired in some way, write it in a way that they would understand. And sometimes your business is quite complex, so it's sometimes really difficult to meet all the required— like, all the perceived requirements. And even government departments don't meet the requirements. It's a real challenging part. But what I would say is you should build your website in an accessible manner so that visually impaired people can navigate it easily. For example, they should be able to tab through and have it audibly listened to. So images should have the alt text, short for alternative text, so it's a description of the image. As we're seeing AI roll out, I think these things will become easier and easier to do because the software and the tech will be so smart. It'll just— it already— have you received a photograph on Have you got an iPhone or like a phone?

Of course I have an iPhone, I'm cool.

So some of the time, it doesn't seem to do it all the time, but I notice sometimes someone will send me a photograph and if I'm just listening it'll tell me what the photograph is while I'm driving in the car. It'll say it's a photo of a singer in a band and blah blah blah. That's phenomenal. So all that sort of tech is going to enhance the accessibility as it starts to evolve and roll out. It's going to all become simplified and easier for everyone to do.

Okay, I have my, my last, last question. Not my last, but that's— I hear this all the time. It always confused me. I've been working on my website. It's 6 months ago. 6 months later, we're still working on the website. And I'm like, wait, how— why do some people take so long to create a website? Like, What point is it? Because they're working a little bit on each website, but what's the average time to put together a website? Or is there just no answer to that and you want to smack me in the face for even asking?

Yeah, well, it does, it does vary a fair bit according to how busy we are at the time, but generally speaking, it's about 4 weeks. Um, normally the— and it depends on who we're working with, but oftentimes they'll produce their own content. So they'll write it, and usually that's the thing that's holding us back, either the text or the photographs for the customer. Yeah, so you just put Latin text in as the placeholder and build it out as best you can, and placeholder images, for example. But oftentimes you're just waiting because we're working with us— generally it's a slightly bigger company who's got a marketing person, so they're managing a whole bunch of stuff from their side. So it's a collaboration, so you're kind of waiting for them and they're waiting for us, and you know, sometimes it takes more than the 4 weeks. But you know, we had a website launched Monday, Tuesday, and it took just over a week simply because we did all the content writing for them and we already had the photographs because they had them from their brochures. They just sent us a Dropbox and we just had everything. Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, one last, last, um, why do they use Latin text?

I don't know, just for— it was always the lorem ipsum. Um, I don't know why it just became this, the standard for placeholder text. Um, yeah, it was always what we used in, in uni as well, so it's just, uh, just became the way of doing it. I don't know.

I don't know. I think you should look it up and do a blog about it. Wait, that's an article right there somewhere. That's so funny because when you're a blog writer, when people are talking, I like be like, wait, that's— you just have a blog. You just wrote your own blog right there. Oh, Wes, it's really lovely, lovely, lovely. I'm going to just close this up so I can say a proper goodbye. Wes, I really enjoyed speaking to you, and you answered some questions that I had. That. And so do not— you guys, pay for your website, go to a great company, see how— I literally just— I want Wes to like— I just wanted to stare at that and, and play that loop video, which is so cool. I, I absolutely love that. Wes, is there anything that I did not ask you that you would like to share before we say goodbye to you?

I know it's been a fantastic conversation. I love the concept of no prep needed. So we, we took the conversation. I didn't know where we were going to go, but it's been fantastic. Great interviewer, and it just felt such a natural conversation. So I was super happy that you accepted me to be on the podcast and really thankful to share with the audience. Hopefully they got some value out of it.

If you, if you receive value, please send me feedback saying just very simply, I liked it, because I'm not— I'm just kidding around. Oh well, sorry, I can't take the comic out of me. I, um, so I will come to see you in Australia because that's always been a dream. That is my number one place I want to visit. Have you ever been to the United States?

No, I'd love to, definitely. And it's a, it's a big country though to be, to visit, isn't it? I'd have to spend quite some time there, I think, to see everything east to west, north to south. Yeah, so many.

I live in Florida, Daytona Beach, Florida, so I live in the peninsula. Sometimes when I look at the map, I think, what Boy, that's scary. I could literally go from one— I could drive like from where I am to the other side of the peninsula in about 3 hours, so I could watch the sunset and the sunrise over the ocean in one day, which is pretty amazing. So there's like these sunrise sunset tours, just zip right over and say hello to Disney on the way. But Wes, oh wait, do you have a park? Is there a park in Australia? Does Disney have a park? Does Walt Disney World have a park?

No, we, uh, we have movie— no, we have similar things, Movie World, um, and other theme parks, but nothing quite the same as what— at the scale of what, what you have there. Um, but yeah, just want to say the US obviously is a massive influence on us as a small nation, Australia. Um, and so yeah, we learn a lot. We, we watch you guys all the time on, um, on the television and YouTube and, uh, such an influence on the world. So, uh, and great allies and partners for Australians. We really respect and appreciate you guys.

Yeah, I, I appreciate that. And I, and we, I think that we all love Australia. I just get like, oh my God, what are you thinking about us there? But that's for another topic, another conversation. Come live, remember, come on chat or social and, uh, and share because there are a lot of developers on there and, uh, in the construction industry a lot. I really enjoyed you, by the way. I'm just gonna do a shout out to West Towers, number 1 on PodMatch, up on the ranking. That one is actually really, really huge. So, um, you don't sleep. And is that your— are you— is that your guest thing, or if you're, um, is that how many of your interviews you've done?

Yeah, I'm just a guest. I'm not a host at this stage, but I would like to once I learn the craft a little bit more. I'm just, uh, accepting any, anyone who will have me on the, on podcasts.

No, he didn't mean that. He didn't mean that. He didn't mean anyone. He meant only those that are like Adrian that run a really cool podcast. Then he accepts that. Not, not all of you. I'm just kidding. Not anyone, just the special ones. Anyways, thank you so much. Yeah, I love this format. I, I have to do things differently. I cannot do the same thing. I don't know if it's because I grew up in the branding industry, promotional products. But for me, everything has to be uniquely different no matter what it is. And I shine when I was with Muscular Dystrophy Association. I used to do all kinds of events that like nobody ever heard of because I get underwater Monopoly marathon. I just like doing things differently. But I think that you do too when it comes to websites. You're doing something that's really beautiful and hitting like I look, you have the magnet, you have like all the key and everything is where it should be. I, the only thing I thought was interesting is that you have your clients above the magnet. And I would be like, oh, maybe you should have the magnet more visible and then the clients underneath there. But on the other hand, you don't really want to take any advice from me because my website looks like a 5-year-old did it. So, but, um, that's it. But I love it. You guys go in and get that KPI checklist because, uh, that's awesome. And thank you, Wes. Have a great rest of the evening, right?

No, it's morning. Yeah, morning. Yeah, 7:30 AM right now.

What day are we? Are you Thursday?

The 9th? Yeah, Thursday.

Yeah, that's so weird. That's so weird.

Yeah, it's a, it's a call to the future. We're coming to you from the future.

Unbelievable. Okay, thank you, Wes. I could talk to you forever. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. Let me just tell you the steps. This is going to be turned into a podcast, and then it may be a book, my next publishing book. See how thick it is? Beautiful manuscript. So I take— turn the episodes into a manuscript. All right, have a great rest of the day. Thank you for letting me blab so much. I love talking to you. 5 stars. Thank