SuperStar Guest Daralyse Lyons, https://www.daralyselyons.com/

board right now so we could go live. So normally, Daraleese, I go, I go live, there's no fancy anything, and we just move forward with conversation. And you know, the intro, I intro you in the information and the YouTube video. But you're amazing, so I have to take a second. I'm just— I, I know it sounds crazy, I'm really excited. And, and to have you on Election Day The day we need to have this conversation.

Yeah, I'm really glad to be here, and thank you so much for making this happen. And yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation.

So, all right, I want to share something with you because I made a mistake about 3 weeks ago in a leadership class, and I said something that is, is actually considered that it would be not a nice thing to say. And a woman that works for the town, the city of Port Orange, in HR looked at me, and I realized I've got to apologize. And what it is, is that I was talking, a man was saying his girlfriend is Brazilian, and I said, I love Brazilian women. They are so beautiful, and their skin is so beautiful. Like, I love everything about them. And they're such spitfires when they get mad. They get really angry. And I kind of I'm a little jealous of that, that they have such fire in them. And I saw her face and I realized that is an incorrect and wrong statement. So can we talk about that?

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think it can be really, really hard because it sounds like you were sort of coming from like this beautiful and genuine place and wanting to like really voice your opinions and feedback about a culture. And I think like here's where the challenge comes in, right, is that there there are certain things that I think tend to be like cultural stereotypes that then become racial stereotypes that then as people, you know, we can think that like, oh, people are inherently this way or that way. And the truth of the matter is, is that no one is inherently any, you know, like any different than anybody else. We're all human beings. And yet, yes, there are, you know, like certain cultural practices and and things that can be different. But I think part of the problem when you start to really, like, pinhole people is that it doesn't allow the space for people to be individuals and to have their own thoughts and desires and feelings. And I recently did an episode for my podcast, the Demystifying Diversity podcast, and I interviewed a woman who is culturally and ethnically— or culturally and racially Asian. And she said, you know, people have all these stereotypes about Asian people, and I don't fit into any of them. You know, and she was talking about how, like, you know, painful and alienating that could be. And I think, you know, I just think, like, it's hard because it sounds like really you were, like, you were saying something that felt very positive to you. But at the same time, like, we just always really want to be really careful about not labeling people or boxing them in. And I so appreciate your willingness to just, like, share that authentically in this platform because I think I think a lot of people don't want to talk about the things that they get wrong, and yet that's where healing can happen, right?

So, and as a Jewish girl growing up with more pennies thrown at me before I even understood it, to be honest with you, in elementary school, I didn't know what— like throwing pennies, I picked them up, I didn't know better. But so, yes, I was kind of really— I felt that disappointment, but I wear everything on my sleeve. I also grew up with, um, with my parents that everyone's beautiful, and so I tend to do that. And, and so I, I like, I group people together, all beautiful, like the world is beautiful, everyone's beautiful. But I think that that also is not really being inclusive and, and not being really— I don't think I'm expressing myself correctly.

Yeah, and I think it's interesting when we talk about language such as beauty, right? And like, I'm a person who comes from a background of an eating disorder, and I Recently conducted a series of interviews with people who are experts in the field of fat liberation and eating disorder recovery and body diversity. And one thing that was just coming up again and again is like, why— I think we treat beauty like it's a characteristic, right? Like it's an admirable thing. And beauty is so objective and subjective. But why is that kind of considered a compliment, right? Instead of saying, oh, someone has a great character or they're kind or they're whatever, right? Like we evaluate people based on external appearances and all that is, is so fleeting. I mean, it's so fleeting anyway, right? Like you feel beautiful one day and then the next day maybe not, or like life happens and aging, like all these things happen, right? And suddenly we don't feel beautiful anymore. And I think it's just really like for me, I try to make less comments about a person's externals and more about their internals. But, but that can be hard. And especially you, you said like you grew up this way, right? So like you're taught certain things and it becomes very reflexive, I think.

So, but yeah, my girlfriend Jennifer would like that I'm sharing this out loud because she'll remind me, especially with my 14-year-old daughter, stop saying how beautiful or cute she is and, and talk about the real value that she brings to the world. So I really, it is something I think that we all have something that we, we possibly need to be self-aware of and, and make those changes. And that, that is with me. So I still haven't got control of it, but I need to, I need to be more sensitive.

And we never will get control of it. And you mentioned your 14-year-old daughter, and like what I love about that is There's a whole lot of research that talks about sort of like fixed sort of growth, fixed mindset versus like growth mindset, right? And these ideas that when we comment on things like, oh, you're so smart, right? Versus like, oh wow, like you studied so hard, you know, like I'm so proud of you for studying so hard versus like you're just like a smart person or, or like, wow, I love that you like really, I don't know, like that you added some flair to your outfit, that's so fun, as opposed to just like, oh, you're so beautiful, right? Like when we start to really focus on this idea of growth and human evolution and like working hard and, and building character, I just think so many more possibilities open up. And you spoke about like, oh, I don't have control over this. We'll never— I mean, my gosh, I work in this industry, I work in this field, and I will never have control of this. I will never be a person who doesn't have my own preconceptions or biases or but hopefully as long as I'm humble enough to just show up and learn and grow and evolve, I just hope to get better over time and to be curious about what I don't know. So, yeah.

And I love that Amanda in the leadership class actually pointed it out. So I want to talk about— so I normally pre don't listen to blogs or read books because this is kind of like no prep needed. So if you and I were to meet and said, let's have a cup of coffee, But I did listen to your podcast because my daughter Alana and I, we moved to China in 2018. And I will— I need another word. The, the, the, the Asians are such phenomenal, lovely people. I love the fact that there was at one point we were on the metro in Shanghai and my daughter was giggling. They were making fun of me. In a cute way. And it was her and another young girl, and they were laughing and smiling, but they, they had no— they couldn't speak a little bit of anything. Like, they, you know, she didn't know English. But watching them sit on the train together and just look at me and share this interaction, this time together, will go with me for the rest of my life. I really love that. But I love that you had that conversation, and I didn't know— can you share about the Ming law? Is that— Yeah, yeah.

So the Meng Resolution, it's, um, what it is, is it has to do with the fact that in the aftermath of COVID-19, in the aftermath of the coronavirus, um, there were a lot of very hateful comments that our current president— who knows if he'll be our president after today, right? But our current president, um, made a lot of, uh, like xenophobic and racist remarks that linked the coronavirus or COVID-19 with its place of origin in Wuhan, China. And following that, and also following just, there's been a rise of hate crimes against Asian and Asian-passing individuals in America since COVID-19 came to the United States. And it's really, I mean, it's just really been horrible. And so there was a congresswoman, Congresswoman Meng, who passed a— she was like spearheaded this resolution, and so it has her name on it. But essentially, the resolution really, like, it makes it so that it's illegal. It's— people are not like allowed to make pejorative comments. They're not allowed to discriminate against Asians in America. And like, I mean, I'm sure people are continuing to do it, but hopefully now that there's been a resolution, And there's considerable backing for it. Hopefully people will think twice and public sentiment will be on the side of justice and, and what's right and kind and good. So, but it's, it's been surprising to me because even after that resolution was passed, I still heard political leadership in this country make disparaging remarks about the origins of the virus and about Asian-identified individuals in the United States. So I, like, I don't know if it's a— if it's completely effective in the way that they're wanting it to be, but at least there is a resolution around this and there is a growing cultural awareness about it.

And the other thing is now my son Sam has been 10 years in Shanghai. He, he, he moved there at 22 to teach English as a foreign language and he, he loves it. So he does a lot of different things and— but he has a fitness company here in the United States. The United States, and he has a lot of friends, and he has the other side of it now where, where what we're doing here affects the Americans that are living and loving Asia. And that, you know, that he could, you know, he gets along with everyone, so maybe he can't feel it as much, but he realizes that, that there's still, there were, he was very much embraced when he first got over there. When my daughter and I went in 2018, we moved to Nanjing. that was an amazing experience. We were embraced too, but honestly, you only needed one thing. You only needed a big smile, right? That is like the universal language. I don't know, but people are like, how'd you communicate? And I'm like, smile. And, you know, the Google Translate helped, all of that helped. But so I just want to remember that we also have to think of what we do here affects our own citizens in other countries.

Yeah, I mean, it's been so sad because I— when the coronavirus first sort of started sweeping through the world and then later sweeping through the nation, like, I thought, and maybe this is my own naivete, but I was like, oh, I really hope— like, this is horrible, it's devastating, but I really hope that people will wake up to just how interconnected we all are as human beings on this planet, and that if something could arise in one part of the world, and quickly sort of sweep through. And if we could all be reduced to our own basic humanity and the fragility of life, like, hopefully this will wake people up, you know, and hopefully we'll sort of pull together. And it's been really disillusioning that I do know there are some people who feel as I do, and it does seem like there is a rising awareness of that on the one hand. But on the other hand, there's just so much pain and othering and discrimination that happens. And it's like, I mean, I know I should be sort of like expecting of that. But I think just even though I do this work and even though I'm in the diversity space and even though I talk to people about discrimination and othering every day, because I get to talk to people like from their own humanity and I get to really hear their stories and I get to connect with people as people, I'm always surprised by the human capacity for hatred. Like, it always throws me for a loop.

Right. And you're really right. You know, the political scene too has— so I was in— the best way to describe this is that I was on a first-degree murder trial. And I know, 3 weeks. It was an amazing time. And I went—

Where was that?

When was it? Kissimmee, Florida. And it was really an amazing experience. But so I was with— there was like 12 plus the 13th. I really believed that he was innocent or that there wasn't enough proof. But we were, we were at a pass. We couldn't go anywhere. And we went back to the judge and sat down with him. And he said to us, before I call a mistrial, I'm asking you to go in. And if you believe he's guilty, I want you to convince everyone that he's innocent. And if you think he's innocent, I want you to convince everyone that he's guilty. And that actually really helped because it got us all to think another different way. And I will tell you that I think that it is so important that we do this. So we know, like, people get on the web and social media, and if you are a supporter of the current president, then you're being fed that. And if you're a supporter of Vice President Joe Biden, then you're going to be fed that. And there is no discussion along the way, like, all you're doing is riling people up. So how do you tell people to really just don't feed into it?

Yeah, well, so I think the things that is really essential is to have to— like, all of these things are so dehumanizing. And so I think the, the real essential thing is to humanize people, even people who have really different thoughts and feelings and ideas than you do. And I don't, I don't think social media is the best place to engage. I think social media is a great place to sort of like post pictures of your cat, you know, like send out a party invite or, you know, like catch up with a high school friend and find out who got married. You know, I think like that social media is great for that. But in terms of having authentic conversations about things that actually matter, I think the best thing to do is to engage with your families, engage with your networks, engage, you know, if it's appropriate and safe to do so, engage in the workplace. Like I think have conversations with people that are actually part of your life, because then you have all this rich history of knowing, like, oh yeah, that's my uncle who brings pecan pie to Thanksgiving every year, you know, and this is my cousin who, like, you know, who I grew up with, and we saw each other naked in the bathtub, right? Like, if you, if you can have this sense of real shared humanity, and then enter into the conversation from that perspective, I love Adrienne that you shared about, like, you know, that you kind of had to, like, get into the other person's frame of mind. You know, I think just to kind of like enter into the conversation with the assumption that, okay, this is a good human, like, I know this person, I know that they're good, I know that they're loving, I know that they're kind. And they have a belief that maybe I think is very misguided, or that, you know, comes from maybe their own fear or something. But like, how can I get to know a little bit more about why they feel the way that they do? And how can I share with them why my own thoughts and feelings are so important. And I think sometimes too, this is the last thing I'll say, because I know I'm probably rambling on, but I think something too that's really important to think about is that if it's a relationship, if we're having these conversations in relationship with people, that's not a one and done kind of thing. So it's not really about convincing someone in that moment that you're right and they're wrong and coming to an easy conclusion. But I think it's being willing to live in that sort of amorphous space in between of like, okay, we've, we've started a dialogue and it'll be an ongoing dialogue. And, you know, and there's other things that we can talk about too, and other rich things about our relationship that we can focus on. And so, yeah, I'm going to continue to have this conversation because it matters to me and it's an important topic. But I'm also not going to reduce this person to one set of views because I don't, I don't know that you kind of can convince someone to come over to the side of love and inclusion by blocking them out and hating them. Like, I just don't— you just can't sort of fight discrimination with discrimination. So I think it's about being like, just really recognizing that people matter and relationships matter and that we want to sort of be very intentional and not turn a blind eye to any of these things. But at the same time, like, you just really want to think about being pragmatic and purposeful in interactions about this kind of sensitive subject.

Wow. All right. I love that. Thank you. That is really fabulous. Thank you. Humanize people. I think that is great. All right, one more topic I just have to ask you about. I got lucky and I work for the American Cancer Society and they really do a great job of teaching diversity and inclusion and equity. And I, you know, they, they have a whole program and you're sitting there and there's a lot of, you know, going back and forth. They're great. They're a big large corporate nonprofit, maybe the largest. Enjoyed every minute with them. How do you help the smaller business? And how can you right now just explain why it is so important? And then actually, why someone want to come to you? What is a business— what, so they would go to you, what would you do? And how— what size is it? Okay, if they're a one-man band of an employee, or 3, or 500, like, I'd like to kind of get that in.

Yeah, absolutely. I actually love working with smaller corporations. And I do a lot of that work because I think that especially a corporation that's growing, like every company has its own culture. And so I think if you can sort of start to think about creating an intentional and inclusive culture at the beginning, it's so much easier. Like if we think about sort of learning languages, for example, right? It's so much easier for a young child, like ages 0 through 5 to learn a new language because they're malleable and adaptable. Than it is for, you know, someone at like— I'm 37— and someone at 37, right, to like learn a new language. My brain is just like, oh my God, but I've been thinking in this way for so long, you know, I can't sort of shift out of that. And so why I use that as an example is because corporations are also sometimes like when they're in their infancy, that's a time when it is really easy to kind of, you know, to look at what's not working and create something different or to just be intentional about what you create it at the outset so that you don't have to unlearn things. And so I, yeah, I really love to be able to work with people to create something that is beautiful and inclusive and diverse and sort of expansive from the outset so that they're not then having to sort of like, you know, change years and years into the game. Although that, that can be done too, and I think it's Either way, when I work with, whether it be an individual and sort of like a coaching standpoint, or whether it be a corporation, one of the things that I think is so essential is to really work with people on paradigms, because it's not so much about just like the mechanics, right? It's like, well, how many people of color work for your organization? And how many, you know, and like, let's check all these boxes and let's do these kinds of things. But like really looking at essentially when your organization is truly inclusive and expansive, you can serve the public so much better because you really do start to see things that you wouldn't start to see if an organization just looked one particular type of way, right? People have diverse ways of thinking and moving about in the world and just So yeah, I mean, I really, really love when I'm able to work with corporations to help shift that mindset about, well, how can we, like, how can we as a corporation create a culture that so many people from all different walks of life really want to come to and be a part of? And what, you know, and what areas of insufficiency do we have? What aren't we seeing because of our own backgrounds or, you know, limited objectives that etc. And it's awesome when you can, when you can do that. And companies, you know, I think sometimes people feel like diversity and inclusion training is like this side thing in companies, right? It's like this just like side thing that they do. But I find that really when I work with companies and we take a very active role and an excited role in changing things, the company grows and profitability gets better and just so many things are enriched by by having a whole host of different people with different perspectives and viewpoints and life experiences sitting around and making decisions and growing together and bringing whatever your product or idea is out to a larger demographic than you probably would be serving if that corporation sort of kept its focus narrow.

I love that. It also— First of all, it's not training like, OK, everyone, let's all read a couple of pages. And OK, you read it? OK, here's a certificate. It's got to be— to me, it's got to be a lot of role-playing. And doesn't it seem to go hand in hand with harassment too and understanding? So why do we have harassment training? Why doesn't it get included with harassment training and then made just like companies have to have harassment and sexual harassment training? Why not add that to it? Because isn't there a little connection that they tie in together?

Yeah, I mean, I think the connection that I see in terms of tying in together is like just the real emphasis on treating other people well and treating people with fairness. I think where I see a little bit of a difference between harassment training— harassment training is really about the dynamics of power. And I think like has a lot to do oftentimes, at least to historically with gender discrimination. And I know that, you know, people of all genders can be sexually harassed. And that said, I think diversity training is a little bit different. It's— I think anti-discrimination and like sexual harassment training tend to have a lot more overlap. But I think like real diversity training is not just about what not to do. It's also about like what to do and how to kind of create these not just like safer spaces, but also like how do we build a company structure in a way that is truly reflective of the values and the viewpoints of, you know, of its founders and like how do we really better serve our community. And so I think sexual harassment training is essential. And I'm so glad that it's being done more and more in companies and people are really waking up to the fact that these power dynamics are just not okay and that companies won't stand for them anymore. But I think, yeah, I just think diversity and inclusion is so much bigger than kind of what to avoid and what not to do and what the consequences will be if you do something that's out of line. It's really so much more about like, how do we build?

Oh, thank you. Because actually, good, that was a great answer. So one of the things I do, I'm a graduate of the Protocol School of Washington teaching etiquette and teaching. And actually just posted my workshops again for virtual etiquette, which we all need, and also for our students. So this seems to me that it would be perfect training if we're teaching. I mean, if I was taught younger, oh my gosh, like what a difference. Like I'm kind of glad that I intuitively, or maybe because I've gotten the training from SCORE trained, so there has been the ability, but What would that look like? What do you think if we went into the actual middle schools and started, or maybe even elementary, 5th grade, start teaching this to our students?

Yeah, it's actually, it's great. And there are actually a lot of schools that are doing that work. Sadly, it tends to be schools that have more economic means and economic resources to, like, to be able to bring in this sort of programming, which I think can be pretty sad because kids like it sort of reinforces and speaks to part of the problem, which is the division of assets and the inequity, the systemic inequities that affect people. But I will say that in schools that are doing this, like I said a little bit about corporate culture, like children are so much more malleable, I think, than adults. And it really is very— and that's not— I hate to make like a broad generalization. I think adults can be malleable as well. But I think that often, like, if we learn, the less unlearning we have to do, the better off we'll be. And sometimes it can be really sobering too for parents when their kids come home and say, well, you know, like how you've taught me this, you know, or you know how you've said this thing, like, well, I learned that really the correct language is this, or I learned that blah, blah, blah. And like the kid can suddenly teach their parents. I think that those moments are just priceless and wonderful. And, and yeah, and it really does also speak to like just the level of engagement in making society better. I think the more that we can all just be engaged in that and the more that we can all kind of like take a stance of, okay, there are some systemic problems that speak to a brokenness in the system and how do we work together to do as much reparative work as possible, like, I just think the better off society will be. So I think like, yes, this work should be happening in corporations, it should be happening in schools, it should be happening in prison reform, it should be happening in all levels of the government and, you know, and training, like, just because the more that we can really work together, I just think the quicker the healing will be and the less damage we'll do in the meantime. As we work to sort of bring about a more equitable society.

Words matter. Like, the thing is, that's it. And it's easy for someone to say, well, I don't have that issue, but what happened to me? And when you are trained, then you really start to look at it. So here's another question then. Do you think that training in middle school or elementary school, would that help to stop the bullying?

Yeah, I think bullying is really sad. And again, I'm going to kind of go back to how I have a little bit of a problem with social media. I mean, I think that one of the things that makes bullying a lot easier nowadays is that people can do it in a disembodied way, right? So like there's a lot of cyberbullying that goes on. There's a lot of kind of shaming people on social media, whether it be body shaming or shaming about like just anything. And I think sometimes when people have have that veil of a computer screen or that illusion of distance between themselves and the other person, like it still hits the person in the same way. It still hits the person that you're being cruel to in that same way where it can really shape a person's sense of self. I mean, people have committed suicide over being bullied, whether in person or online. But I think that, I think there needs to be like, yes, training and education and information and a lot more kind of like coming to these issues from a space of mental health, you know, engagement and working to sort of support people in feeling more whole and feeling less— I mean, a lot of people who are bullying might be having problems at home. They might, you know, right? So like working to sort of humanize the victim and the victimizer, working working to create more upstanders in society instead of bystanders. Like, all of that stuff I think is essentially important. And I also think something that's very important is like, I mean, I don't know what sort of protections there can be, but just really like better reporting when someone is doing bullying online, like better sort of interventions in that regard so that we can really kind of create more safe spaces, whether those be in person or on the internet.

I love that. So, okay, so now, thank you. I think I'm going to add it into what I do, even if it's just some pieces of it with role-playing, because I really feel that it is really important and really is.

It is. I mean, the other thing is though too with this training is that it can be very vulnerable as well, right? And so it's like, it's very, I think it's both. I think it's information, but I think it's also experience. And in a lot of the trainings that I do, I'll ask people to share an incident or a moment, like a racially charged moment that they were either part of or that happened to them. And it takes a lot for someone to be willing to step up and step out of their comfort zone and say, you know, I had this incident happen in high school and I still think about it every time I see someone who looks like this, or every time I enter into an interaction where I'm among people that I perceive to be different than myself, or what, you know, because people, a lot of this stuff comes from pain, or even just feeling like, you know what, I was raised by someone who I loved and admired, and they have this view that all people who were blank were this way, right? Like, and then you kind of start talking about, like, well, what does it mean to still love my dad or my grandpa if they had these racist views? And I'm saying that those racist views are horrible and horrific, like, then I'm having to say that this this person that I still really love was capable of these atrocities? Like, what does that mean? Right? And so it's really, I think it, it gets very nuanced and it can be really hard because the brain just wants to categorize things and kind of like know where it's going and have a sense of certainty. And this work can be very uncertain and very revealing and very vulnerable.

I am really glad that some of the TV shows, I am a huge haven't missed an episode ever of This Is Us, fan.

Oh my God, I love— yeah, I love this.

And Randall, I love Randall. I love them all. And I love, I love the season. It's great. And that they, they really brought it to real. But what Randall's going through— and there was, um, there was one of last year where he said— I don't— sorry, where he said the discussion about you don't see me. And when he said, that's the problem, like, I don't see color. And he said, that's the problem, Mom, you don't see me. I don't know why that's just such a beautiful scene because it really shared exactly what was going on in the little boy's heart and what was happening. And we've got to, we've got to change that. We've got to see people. And so thank you so much for the work that you do because it really is so important. And I am glad that my family, I have a lovely mixed family and I love that. But I also, I also think that it is so important in our workplace. So how does a company work with you? Like, just so they understand, how does that work? They call the other one?

Yeah, absolutely. So you can reach out to me either through demystifyingdiversitypodcast.com is the website for the podcast, or daraleeseleons.com, which is my own, like, sort of other professional website. And, and then what we do, myself and my business partner, is we really, we create a plan that is specific to that company. One thing that I really encourage companies to do is not just sort of like a one-and-done training. I think it's really important that if you do some sort of training or some sort of, you know, session, that there be a period of like follow-up and debrief, really to like figure out, okay, well, how was that effective? And what did you notice? And what, you know, what kind of shifts have you seen? And so then with virtual training, it's a little bit different. I mean, we can work with companies all throughout the world now, which is wonderful. But I find that like when it was in-person, it tended to be like a little maybe more like intimate in some ways and more revealing. So we really, we just create a package and a program that works for a specific company, that works within their budget, that works within their corporate culture. And, you know, and sometimes that will involve just group training. Sometimes that will involve just like one-on-one sessions with upper management or human resources departments. So it is very individualized and very sort of strategically structured in order to make sure that a company can get to the outcomes that they want. And oftentimes the outcomes that happen are so much better, like so much more preferable than that which a company wanted. Because once you start to really make people feel like their voices matter and you care about them and you like want their opinions, like, it's always really surprising what people's ideas and their ability to be really co-create in a community environment that makes them feel seen and heard. And something that we know that I just kind of want to put out there is that it's been proven and it's been demonstrated by research and statistics that there are certain people who, because of lived experiences and because of the way that the world has sort of taught them it's acceptable to be are far less likely to voice their thoughts and opinions. And some, you know, some demographics that tend to be highly affected are people of color and women actually, like, tend to often not speak up or speak out if they feel like the corporate environment is not encouraging for them to do so. And so you might, you know, someone watching this or whatever might feel like, well, my organization is really diverse, but like, How diverse is it really if people are in the room but they don't feel like they really have a genuine seat at the table?

That is so true. And so I love this because this training is all about servant leadership. So like, for me, of course I would want my employees to grow because I don't have the mindset like they're going to be with me forever. So to give them this— so for all the employers out there and for all the leaders out there, this is so important. This is a gift gift that you give to your employees that they have for the rest of their life. And so work together. Now, the one thing I do think is virtually there's a lot that you could see that maybe you would miss in a room because virtually, I mean, we've got our face, our eyes. You can see if someone's rolling their eyes or making a comment. And so many people don't mute themselves or just— so I think that actually a lot of it may, may come to the surface. Yeah, maybe more virtually than it actually would in real life because you could be in the back of the room and, you know, and nobody can see what you're doing. So continue what you're doing. I really think that it is so important and I, I'm going to follow you. You're a— so I'm going to find you everywhere.

I'm going to be your stalker. Yes, yes, thank you. And one thing you're— what you just said made me think about, Adrienne, I was part of the training recently And one of the participants, one of the gentlemen said like, he's like, you know what I love about Zoom or, you know, or whatever the internet platform is, we were, we just happened to be using Zoom was he said, you know, everyone has the exact same amount of space. And he said, I find that in person, you know, people sort of like based on personality, based on this, based on position at the company, whatever, like it's, it's almost like certain people kind of take up more of a room and have, you know, energetically like more of a say? And he's like, but this, it just feels like we're all like, there's a lot of equity in the fact that we're, we all have like exactly the same square. And I thought, yeah, that's, that's really a cool way to think about it.

That really is. Wow, I love that. So this is really important. We've got to have some changes being made. And, you know, I'm sure we're all have our, you know, for, for tonight, for, for, I don't know if we're going to find the answer out, but I am looking forward to a kinder and more gentler United States. And I do feel it's interesting too, because, because there is really that connection in corporate etiquette and protocol with DEI. And it is really important that all of our leaders either have training in both, along with also having maybe, maybe some will need to have an actual protocol officer with them wherever they go to make what they say and do is appropriate as they're representing all of us in the United States. And I love that, you know, a lot of universities have protocol officers to make sure that they're doing and saying the right thing, because at the end of the day, right, words matter. And there's no room for sarcasm. You know, the tearing of someone and their heart is just so— I love the work that you do.

Oh, thank you so much. I love the work that I do too, and I love the work that you're doing. And I just think it's so, yeah, it's so important to have more candid conversations. And I think if more of us could do that in our lives and with the people that really matter to us, I really think it would go a long way towards healing and reconciliation and connection.

I love that. All right. So you are an actor, actress?

You are an actor? Yeah, so I'm doing a little bit less of that now that it's, you know, with quarantine, I'm less on stage now, but I definitely act and I do a lot of comedy improv stuff, which is just really, it's really fun to have an infusion of funny, right? Because like the work I do tends to be, it's meaningful and loving and heart connected, but it also can be very heavy. And so just to be able to like find humor, and I, what I love about comedy improv too is like there's this sense of finding humor that's not really at someone's expense, right? And like, we learn how to punch up and how to be humorous in a way that isn't cruel or deprecating. And so, like, I find that that has really stretched my skill set because, like, I love jokes and I want to be funny. And I feel like some of this stuff can seem so heavy. And it's really important to, like, be able to laugh at oneself and just be able to kind of, like, take life seriously, but also not take it too seriously. So there's fun in it.

You gotta be— you gotta be like quick. Wait, so are you in Connecticut?

You know, I was originally. I moved to Philadelphia, I want to say maybe about 10 or 11 years ago now. And so I live in Philly.

Um, where were you in Connecticut?

Greenwich, Connecticut.

Okay, I'm a boy— yeah, Meriden. Born in a nice little— my son is still there, I love Bearden, so very happy. So, but yeah, you know what, everyone— I don't even know if we have improv here in Daytona Beach, but in Tucson we had a great improv and he's just teaching now. It was fun. I went in and did a couple of improv classes. Oh, fun. That is really fun. I'm glad you brought that up.

Yeah, well, now that it's virtual, there is— there are— even if you live somewhere where there is no improv in your town, like, you can take classes, you can watch shows because there's definitely, um, you know, improv happening all around the world. And, uh, now it can happen in your living room.

I love that. Not making fun of people. I love that. Thank you so much for your time. I'm sorry we couldn't go live, but I'm going to post this on my Facebook and I'll send you a copy of it. And you know, I want to say you're beautiful. Thank you so much.

You and I appreciate that.

It's got a heart.

Beautiful externally and also beautiful in like of the soul, right? Which is exactly—

well, you know what, my first teacher, Dale Carnegie, I remember going home and I was like, I don't know, Mom, if I could actually sit in front of him. I was like 24 at the time. He is really not very pleasant looking, and I don't know if I'll be able to actually enjoy this class. The second class, I'm like, I think I fell in love. I am. I'm in love with him. And my mom's like, wait, didn't you say that he really wasn't good looking? And I'm like, did I? I'm like, that's the weirdest thing. But it really hit me at the time how really it's so true. The, the internal comes out and it could change a whole look. I mean, from that first time that I met him where I was like, to when I finally like I saw it, it was only the second one, I was like, oh my God, I never go back to seeing him any other way but beautiful. So I do believe that when I say people are beautiful, that it is the, the inside, because there's so much good. And I teach my daughter when she was younger to find the beauty in everything and find what you have in common. And if you can do that, that is your way to having a connection. That is a great way to stop a lot of bullying, because once you know someone, you don't bully the people that you know.

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. So much and just thank you so much for, yeah, for this chance to chat.

You're awesome. All right, we'll talk again. Thank you. We'll have another cup of coffee soon.

Yes, please.

Have a great rest of the day.

Bye-bye.

Thank you.

Great.