Stop Chasing Titles: How to Find Work You Actually Love

What's up, everybody? This is another episode of the Allie from Corporate podcast. This week's guest is my good friend and career coach, Steven Steiner. What's up, Steven?

Hey. Hey. Thanks, Ali. This is great.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. So you help people. You help designers, specifically stand out and get jobs, right?

Yes. Yeah. Help designers get what they want next.

Good. So tell me a little bit about what got you into that, because you have an interesting story and you have an interesting career that has led up to you becoming a coach for people that maybe give the help that you wish you would have had. So tell me a little bit about what made you decide to leave your corporate job and become a coach.

Yeah, I would say the story that you're talking about is a concept of. I've been a designer my entire career, so I got my first job, really, in the design space. I worked my way up doing exactly what society told me to do. And what society tells you to do is to climb the corporate ladder. So I was really great at following the rules of society for a long time. I worked my way up to being a interim director at a Fortune 10 bank. And then I realized that doing what society told me to do didn't actually fill me up at all. And really what filled me up the most was going back to what I loved to do. My first job when I was 15 and a half was teaching swim lessons. And that whole concept of being able to kind of productize my knowledge and pay it forward to help other people get what they want to do was extremely fulfilling for me. And realizing throughout my career on the corporate side, I always stayed involved in teaching, mentoring, coaching at some capacity. And being able to do that more permanently was far more rewarding than any of the design awards that I've won in my career. So it's a chance to now do that more specifically, using what helped me get far in my career, being on both sides of the hiring table.

Nice. And isn't it ironic that I bet you were asked when you were 15, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you probably had no idea that life would take you on this journey of being a designer, working in corporate, working for these big companies, and then you make it back around to, I want to help people reach their goals.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, the whole concept of do your dream job, it's like, well, you don't necessarily know what the dream job is. And according to past Stephen, 15 and a half Stephen, or whatever it is, I've had that dream job probably four times. Every time I've reached that quote, unquote dream, it ends up just potentially not being the dream that I thought it was. So instead of doing that societal norm of dream job, I just do what fills me up on a daily basis and stay true to what I enjoy doing and trust that people will pay me to do it if the value is clear.

And I love that. And that's something that makes you special from other career coaches. And I've heard you say this multiple times, that what you do for people is you help them understand what they're best at and then help them position themselves to companies in that way so that they attract opportunities that they're going to thrive in, rather than a toxic job where you both kind of catfished each other during the interview process.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, even in my own career, like, not to be hypocritical about it, a lot of it is this. I am a proof that if you can prove your value and teach it in a way that people want to pay you for it, you can get a job doing that. It's just the difficult part is trying to be introspective, to figure out, like, what is it that people want to pay me for in addition to what is it that I want to be paid to do.

Yeah. And you get really granular with the people that you help and what you teach online. And so you told me that there were multiple different types of designers, Right? How many were there?

Yeah. So through my own journey, as well as other designers that I've helped, we've identified about seven different types of designers that people could choose.

Can you name these?

Yes. So all seven types. We'll go through it. So basically the way that this was done is looking at job descriptions across the industry. There's about 20 plus job descriptions. They're just trying to classify them into really what are the roles, responsibilities that that job does? So these seven different jobs, in order of the standard design process, is your generalist role, which I think is relatively self explanatory, the strategist role. There's also the researcher, the architect, the artist, the author, and then operations. So it's really looking at the generalist role being like, are you actually skilled at doing all of them? And then leaning into what do you feel your anchor is? And different people are skilled in different ways. So your anchor is really that chance of like, what do you enjoy doing? And hopefully it lines up with what you're good at.

Wow. And this does not only apply to designers, this is For a lot of different types of jobs, I'm sure that they're very common job titles that are maybe overused and used as an umbrella term when there's really way more different types of that job. So how like if somebody's listening and they're a designer or if they're in their job and they're like, I know I want to be this thing, but this isn't what I like doing. How would you instruct somebody to figure out what they are good at or what they do like doing.

A few things is honestly sounds cliche when I talk to non designers as well. It's really just figuring out like what comes natural to you.

Yeah.

So for example, although I've been a career or I am a career coach for designers, I've been a designer my entire career. I don't consider myself an artist, I consider myself more of an architect. And the things that come naturally to me is the analytical thought process of going through whatever it is that we're doing. So in your career, if you're able to reflect on what do people come to you for what do you tend to gravitate towards wanting to spend your time doing? Those usually reflect a way of what are you good at and what could you do more of?

Yeah, somebody gave me some advice about 10 years ago and they said don't ever get good at something that you don't like doing. So you're kind of saying the opposite. You're like, what do you love? What could you get lost in? What could you sit down and do? And then suddenly you look at the clock and it's been three hours and you're like, wow, where'd the time go? Rather than the other types of tasks and we all know what they feel like where you're just, it's like pulling teeth, it's like quicksand. You can't quite get the momentum going and you're like, I hate doing this. When is it going to be 5 o'? Clock? So if anybody listening is feeling like that you might not be in the wrong job or the wrong company, you might just be doing something within your role that somebody else might be way better at doing. And maybe you just need to do some soul searching and some self awareness and reflecting and figure out what you're good at. And then do you have to market yourself in those ways too?

First off, so you just said something that stands out a lot in a way that say yes to the things that you enjoy doing. So you could say no to the stuff that Other people want to do.

Ooh, that's a way better way of saying it.

So it's that idea of like, oh, this has to get done. It's like, yes, somebody would love to do the stuff that you don't like to do. Let them do that so you don't have to.

That's refreshing because when I'm doing something and I don't like doing it, I think, who would want to do this right now? But you're right. There probably is somebody out there who's like, I really wish I could be creating spreadsheets right now for somebody.

Put me in coach 100%. I'm hoping you're gonna use that as an example. I would like as a designer, the stereotype is that I love playing in Figma or Photoshop or any sort of design tool. I actually don't. What put me in spreadsheets, put me in, like boxes and arrows, low fidelity stuff. Like, that's the architecture, strategy stuff that once it's clear, once that puzzle has been solved, let artists make it look pretty. Let artists bring that to life in a way that's visually appealing. Because at that point, the strategy that went into it has already been identified. So I would love to play with the spreadsheets, the requirements, the boxes and arrows, all like the problem solving stuff in a way that somebody else who loves to make it look pretty is an over generalization that could offend some designers. I understand that. Make it. Give it to somebody who is artistically talented and brings that visual, graphical sense to it, which is something that I'm not good at. And I own that in a way that that's not how I built my career.

Wow. So how would you go about saying that in an interview? Because I usually advise people, like, instead of saying in an interview what you don't like doing, try to describe what you do like doing. But how do you navigate an interview where you're trying to get towards the spreadsheets and away from the Photoshop?

Some of the ways that I go about it in every interview, a question that I always encourage people asking is, how would you like to work with somebody in this role? Because it removes you from being the person that is in that role and it puts you mentally in a spot to say, do I even want to be there? So how, like, you could ask anybody, you ask your product managers, your business analysts, your developers, your clients, like, whoever it is that you're talking to, your boss, whoever it is, they're all spheres of influence into. How would you want to interact with somebody in this role. What would you want somebody in this role to be able to do for you? How can they help you be successful? Because then you're able to figure, yeah, what's that?

That's a great question. I like that. I tell people to ask a similar question when they start working somewhere. They ask. They're supposed to ask their new coworkers, how will our work. What do I tell them? Something like, will I be contributing to your work or will you be contributing to my work? Or will we be handing things off to each other? Some form of that question. But you're essentially saying the same thing, is like, how will we be working with each other? What roles will we play in each other's work lives?

Yeah. So if you're able to have that conversation, you're able to then have a dialogue about this hypothetical empty job that's like, how do you want to interact with somebody in this role? Or how do you want somebody to interact with you in this role? And then it's like, okay, well, if they just see you as a pixel pusher who gives pretty pictures, I'm able to figure out if that's a role that I want versus, like, oh, I really want a partner who maybe gets in and understands the requirements with me and starts to understand maybe the spreadsheets or the organization of stuff. Then I'm able to be like, cool, tell me more about that. Or, what does that look like? Or, what are you good at? And how do you complement that skill set in a way to where you're able to say yes to the jobs that you want and no to the jobs that you don't want?

And I love it when interviews go that direction. Instead of like, what's your biggest weakness? Tell me about your, like, all those silly questions. I would love it if interviews were more like, all right, this is what we're going to expect from this role. You tell us, like, does that fit your needs? Would you be happy here? I wish it was more honest like that and less scripted, cliche. What's your biggest weakness?

You know, and you have, yeah, like, stereotypically. That's definitely an interview goes. I would like to think that there is. The way that I look at it is there's questions to ask and answer. So, like, having your answer to those stereotypical questions, but then coming prepared with the questions to ask also so you can drive that conversation of like, this is what it is. But my perception is this. Or how do you get out of them the stuff that maybe they Don't. They're not scripted to ask.

Yeah. And also a tip for anybody, I don't know if you've ever tried this. It's kind of like a little psychology hack for interviews. If somebody's asking you an interview question and you'd rather the interview go in a different direction, like if you're, they're asking you what your biggest weakness is, but you'd rather talk about what value you can bring to the company, you can answer the question they're asking and then say, by the way, speaking of this, does this role include work with these platforms? I really enjoy working with those platforms. And you can steer the conversation gently in a different direction. I love doing that. Because these interviews, it's like 30 minutes for you to get to know what your potentially next two years of your future is going to look like. And how are we supposed to make decisions with just a 30 minute interview conversation?

Sure. There's, there's stuff before that too around just like how to know what roles to even attempt to go for.

Tell me.

Yeah, so I talked about how the seven different job or the seven different types of designers were built from looking at job descriptions or job titles and whatever variation that might be. I look at job descriptions differently. I see job descriptions as the perception of their requirements and it's for us to figure out how to interpolate or how to interpret those requirements.

That's smart.

So a standard job description has three parts. There's usually fluff about the company, there's the responsibilities of what they think you should be doing in that role, and then there's the qualifications at the end. So most people probably scroll to the bottom and read the job description bottom up. If you don't, if you're listening to this, do that, go down to the bottom and kind of figure out your way up to seeing if the company actually matters to you in terms of the fluff at the top. What I also encourage designers to do, and it works for anybody I've done this with physical therapists and office managers and others as well, is look between the lines for three main things. Number one is what are the outcomes that they want that role to deliver? Number two is what are the outputs? Do they expect that role to create to get towards those outcomes? And then number three is what are the tools that they're asking for? So then you're able to see as a designer, if they're asking for really design heavy tools that can kind of lean towards what they might expect for that role or if they're leaning towards maybe operational heavy tools or research heavy tools. They might all have the same job title. Looking at tools will help you understand what the maturity of that company is. And then looking for the outputs of like, are they asking you to do spreadsheets and wireframes in boxes and arrows versus design systems or graphics or copy decks? Like the types of outputs that they expect you to create will also hint at what they want for that role. And then the overarching outcomes, that value based conversation. If they talk to the outcomes that they expect you to deliver, you can then have a conversation in the interview or before the interview around what does it take to get to those outcomes?

Yeah.

And is that an outcome that you want to work towards?

That's a great way to approach a job description and an interview. Yeah, I always skip the stuff at the top, the little fluff about the company. Unless you really don't know what the company does, then sure, it gives context for the rest of the job description. But yeah, and you can often glean some information about the job description, what they're going to have you do and where that company is in their lifetime. Are they a startup that's about to launch their first product? Are they an older company that has 20 products and they just need some field? Some field, you know, maintenance. You can often glean like how hard you'll be working at that company based on where they are. But yeah, I encourage people to spend a lot of time with job descriptions. It's like the cheat sheet you didn't know you needed for the interview.

They're literally giving you the requirements for the job. So it's up for you to satisfy those requirements or move on. And like, yes, there's a lot of people who think job descriptions aren't accurate. There's a lot of people who complain about job descriptions being difficult to understand. That's the space that we're in though. It's like, can you still look at a job description for what their perceived requirements are and align with it or not?

And hopefully they're really putting some thought into the job descriptions. Since we're encouraging job seekers to spend so much time with them instead of writing them and using AI and just like, oh yeah, let's hire for this.

Role or take somebody else's job description for a completely different company. Be like, this is the job title that we want. Right?

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So what are you seeing for job seekers that are listening right now who are maybe struggling? What are you seeing that's working for people like either some success stories your clients have recently had, like what they did to stand out, or what are you seeing that's working with job seekers.

The thing that seems to be standing out the most is really there's two parts. I would say one of them is going to be figuring out where you add value. So the industry and everybody likes to talk about this idea of niching down. However you choose to design your specialty is up to you. Whether if it's an industry, a skill set, a background that's transferable, whatever that is, it doesn't matter. It's just, how do you own your story? So being able to deliver your value in a way that's attractive, that stands out the most. Like, whenever we hear people complaining on LinkedIn or anywhere else, it's usually the, like, I've done a thousand things exactly the same and expect different results. Or this idea of, like, I'm just desperate for a job. And it's like, cool, fast food restaurants are hiring. That's not the job that you want. Right. So, like, figuring out what it is the job that you want and being able to tell that story in a way that you're saying no to the stuff that you don't want to do out of desperation of getting the stuff that you do want to do. So that kind of brings that conversation full circle. And then the other thing that seems to be standing out the most specifically in the design space is really articulating how. So everybody always talks about like, I've achieved these goals or I can use this software. I'm not challenging that. I'm challenging you as a potential employee on my team or as a potential colleague. How do you deliver success? What is your style? What is your process? What's in your toolbox? That is the stuff that allows us to see if it's something that we want to be working with. Yeah, it's something that a lot of people lose out. Like, all these portfolios always talk about their case studies. And it's like a case study is just a glimpse of what you can do. And until you expose everything else that's in your toolbox that you may or may not use, and you never will use everything in your toolbox at once. It's up for you to expose what's in your toolbox so people don't make assumptions that you can or cannot do something.

Yep. How does that land you encourage everybody to have? What was that?

How does that land for you? And, like, the stuff. The stuff that you're seeing?

Yeah, I'm Seeing that people that are having portfolios, like you just mentioned, that is working, that's probably way more popular in your line of work. Like designers, Every designer probably has a portfolio. It's. It's harder to do when you're a office assistant or a nurse or a teacher maybe. So helping people get creative with how they can show what they've done rather than just tell people what they've done on the resume. Because showing is much more powerful than telling. And honestly, networking, Networking is helping. I used to get so much advice about networking, like when I was younger, oh, you should network with people and grow your. Grow your connections. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like, exchange dusty business cards with old men in suits at a conference. But I realized that LinkedIn is actually a really awesome place where you can figure out, like, what you want to do with your career. You can find mentors from LinkedIn. You can get jobs from LinkedIn. You can meet friends who are interested in the same things as you. You can start a group or a club. So networking I'm seeing is really helping because if you can meet somebody or send them a message and maybe tell them your why, why you're interested in that role or send them your portfolio, it's just something that a lot of people aren't doing. I think a lot of people are still mistaken that you can just submit your resume and apply online and like, that'll get you a job that's taking people about nine months. That strategy right there. But if you are putting in the extra work like networking and like, you're saying really niching down about what you can offer a company, and then communicating that and being, having clarity with that, that is helping. And if I could change one thing about every job seeker out there, you know what it would be? I would take away everybody's fear of posting on LinkedIn and throw it in the garbage can. I wish everybody would post about their skill set, their experience, their career goals, lessons they've learned, because that's the other thing that's working. But I feel like nobody's willing to post regularly unless you're a business owner.

Yeah, it's interesting. So networking to me is who knows you, right? So we know a lot of famous celebrities, and that does nothing to us because they don't know who we are. So this idea of if you think of networking through the lens of who knows you, it changes the perspective for the people that I talk to of this concept of like, oh, I've been following this person forever and like you, Allie, like you have the following towards this idea of like, they all follow you, so they all know of you, but this concept of like, do you know them? Doesn't help them at all. So that mutually beneficial exchange of networking is all about who knows you. And in order for get people to know you, you have to initiate that conversation somehow.

Yeah.

Which is great. It's like being able to have that and then the other follow up to that to get people to know you is that idea of lead with curiosity and value first?

Yes. And tell me some examples. So a lot of people, I hear they want to network, but they don't know what value they can bring to somebody. And so they're just asking strangers, can I pick your brain? Which I hate that question, what value can somebody bring to somebody where they can get them on a zoom call for networking or like a coffee chat who maybe doesn't think they have anything to offer?

So the easiest way is to ask. And what I mean by that is you don't know what they need until you ask them how you can help.

Yep.

So versus this, like, yeah, I also agree with you. The pick your brain concept is nobody needs their brain picked.

I don't want my brain picked.

Yeah, I'm good, thanks. But this idea of having a conversation with somebody to where you can lead with curiosity, if it's somebody you don't know on LinkedIn at all and you saw something that they posted that you like or you have a mutual relationship, send a connection request. It's just like, hey, you came across my feed because of this post, or we're both in this same group together, something that shows a relationship that expresses your engagement and curiosity in them. And then it's like, I want to join your network to support your journey. From there, if they accept it, there is at least that handshake of like, hey, this person's reaching out. They acknowledge that it's not just a form letter. So it's like, hey, Ali, I like what you're doing on the podcast. I really like what you have. I want to join your network to support your journey. Awesome. They're in it for you, not for them right now.

I love that. And I will accept a connection request if a message says that. I do not usually accept connection requests that don't have a message like that.

Sure. Because you don't know what they're trying to do. Like you don't know the alternative motive.

Right.

Unfortunately, the free version of LinkedIn limits you in terms of the amount of personalized Messages you can do. You get 10 personalized messages in a month, and you can get a hundred connection requests a month. So that means 9, 90 out of 10 of your connection requests can't be personalized unless you pay for it. So there is that. Now, that's different. So for me, I'll save my 10 for the ones that I really want to engage with. And then the other 90 is like, I'll send a connection request with enough of an understanding that my profile hopefully sets an expectation of where that conversation might go.

Yeah.

So if you're listening to this and you're not in it to be a career coach or whatever that might be, if your Portfolio or your LinkedIn profile, sorry, is tailored enough for the value that you could bring somebody and you send a connection request, they will likely be like, oh, I'm looking for this, or, oh, it's somebody who I could potentially help. And then if they accept that connection request, don't just hang out there. Whether if they accept it because it had a note or they accepted it because it just seemed like a good fit for them, be the one who initiates the conversation. Don't wait. So come in and say like, hey, thanks for accepting a connection request, like, how can I help you? Or what are you struggling with right now? Not, how can I help? That's probably a leading question that might not get you what you want, but being able to lead with curiosity of, like, what are you working on right now? What are you struggling with right now? Like, how am I able to add value to you? Lead with that act of service to where then if nothing else happens, they see you as a nice person who's not in it selfishly. If it does evolve, most people want a mutually beneficial exchange. So there is going to be that element of like, oh, how can I help you? Also like, how do I return the favor?

Yeah, that's a great strategy that works. Most people are open to having a conversation if you approach it like that, especially even strangers, because people want to. People like helping people, but they don't. They need to know how you need help and how they need to know that you're also going to put time into this new relationship and you're not just going to pick their brain, which is a very selfish thing to approach somebody with, but rather, hey, how can I be of service to you? Let's, let's, you know, let's help each other out.

People also love to talk about themselves. So if you're able to say like, hey, I want to better understand Your story. Great. Like, let them go. And then you're able to stay curious to see if it's somebody that you want to continue to interact with or not.

Yep. People love talking about themselves. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And speaking of your portfolio and your LinkedIn profile, that is also an opportunity for you to have, like, a billboard with whatever you're advertising. If you're a business owner, you can have a call to action to visit my website. If you are a coach, you can have a call to action, sign up for a book, a free call with me. If you're a job seeker, you can say what you know, like, what skills you have. But, yeah, I feel like LinkedIn is underutilized in those ways for job seekers because it's like a big, giant billboard. And if you're networking with people and you're being active on LinkedIn with your job search, then you might as well use up that advertising space and advertise for yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so many opportunities in your LinkedIn profile to tell the story of what you want next, and it's allowing other people to see it without you having to repeat yourself.

Yeah, totally. All right, well, before we end, I feel inspired by one of my favorite podcasts, Dear Prudence. She always asks her guests one piece of unsolicited advice that that they have for the audience. So if I were to ask you, Steven, what would be one piece of unsolicited advice you'd want to give people listening.

My one piece of unsolicited advice is to stay true to what fills you up first.

I love that that requires embellishment if.

You want, but I think that stands alone of just like society is full of trying to push us into stuff that we want to do, society is full of trying to tell us what we want to do versus what we should be doing, and we could do that. I lived that life for a long time, and it was fine because I was successful based off the stereotype of what society told me success looks like. I have never felt more fulfilled than I have over the past few years when I've stayed true to what fills me up, and then focus on how do I tell that story so other people want it also.

That's great advice. Cool. All right, well, how can people get in touch with you if they're interested in asking more questions or if they're interested in what you offer? What's the best form of communication?

Yeah. So there's two primary ways to get a hold of me. I'm on LinkedIn. So just Stephen Steiner straightforward there. And then you could Also learn more. CareerCoachForDesigners.com is the primary website. You can learn more about our services, what we offer, how we do it. And then you could also learn more about potentially scheduling a free consult with me as well on how do we help you tell your story to get what you want next.

Cool. And everybody should learn that because that doesn't just help job seekers. Telling your story can help get you funding for your business. It can help in relationships. That's like 101. Being a good person and having opportunities come your way, being able to tell your story, knowing what you're good at. Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I bet our listeners learned a lot. I know I did. And yeah, appreciate you coming on as a guest.

Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. I hope to do it again soon.

Yeah. All right, everybody. See you later. Thanks for tuning in.