Get in Flow

Hello everyone and welcome back to the V Spot. I'm super excited for today's special guest. Dr. George Sachs is a licensed child and adult psychologist, a consultant, an author, and the owner of the Sachs Center, a full-service boutique psychotherapy practice in Manhattan. George, thank you for joining me in the V Spot today.

Sure, it's my pleasure.

Yeah, I'm excited. It's been several years since we've actually been together in person, and so I want to say thank you for accepting the invitation to be here in the V Spot to celebrate Mental Health Awareness Month.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much for, for inviting me.

Yeah, you're welcome. Well, first and foremost, I always like to give my guests their flowers before we actually have our conversation, because I joke around, but I mean it when I say that accepting an invitation to a podcast where you have no clue what will be asked of you is no easy feat. So I just want to say kudos and, and say thank you for trusting me, you know, to be here today.

Of course, of course.

What type of work are you presently doing at the Sack Center?

Um, well, we, uh, specialize in ADHD and autism in adults. Teens, and children. And although we are fully remote now, except for some testing. So basically, if you think you have ADHD or ASD, you would call us and we do a 2-hour comprehensive evaluation. And, you know, based on that, then we direct you in certain directions to a partner who does medication if you want to explore that, or different resources that are available for ADHD and ASD. So it begins with a 2-hour comprehensive evaluation, and then we also do therapy and coaching. But, um, what I'm also excited about is 2 years ago I helped start a new company called Inflow, and we have a digital app for people with ADHD. Which you can find in the App Store. Oh, that's going really well. So that provides a whole bunch of information if you have adult ADHD and you need to find some support and resources.

Oftentimes there's a conversation about feeling like, well, this is it, I just have to figure out a way to, to manage it on my own. So what would you say to people who are listening who are potentially struggling, you know, and think they have to do it on their own?

Well, I mean, actually, the first thing I recommend for people when they get diagnosed is to go on to TikTok and social media. And of course, people say, well, you know, that's a time waste, but we're on it anyway. So if you're on it anyway, and you start looking for, you know, if you type in ADHD, you're going to get a lot of information about, about ADHD, and then it's going to learn that you have ADHD and send you more information. But more importantly, you're going to see so many other people with ADHD, you're going to feel supported and not alone. So actually, social media, while it can be overwhelming and needs to be managed, is, is a great resource for— this is one of the great benefits of social media. A lot of people with neurodiverse issues or any mental health issues can feel less alone because of that. But beyond that, you know, there are groups on Facebook, there is this app I told you, we have a community and this discussion there. So I would recommend using social media to like explore different communities for ADHD or ASD and then And then, and then getting, you know, educated about it there. There are— there's also a lot of different coaches around the world, around the country that provide support groups. So I love that.

And I'm tuning into this aspect of, you know, using social media, right, as opposed to having social media use you, right? Because I think that oftentimes we could get caught up in the vortex that is social media, but using it to the advantage of finding the community, being able to learn about what you're navigating, recognizing you're not in it alone— how powerful it could be as a resource.

Yeah, it definitely is, uh, for a lot of people.

I love that, I love that. Thank you. Well, talk to us about, you know, what— why clinical psychology? What attracted you to the field of mental health?

Well, like many people, I think— well, that's a good question. I majored in psychology. But to be honest, a lot of that was because it was bubble tests and not a lot of writing. But I was also interested in it and learning about it. And then, actually, I didn't pursue that after college. I was kind of burnt out. And rode the dot-com boom of the '90s and the crash of that and was not— the idea of becoming a psychologist in my 20s wasn't so interesting. But by the time I got to 30, I said, I was just tired of chasing the next job. And I was not really a corporate person and was really thinking, what do I want to do with my life? And then realized that I was actually good at, you know, talking to people and listening and was more importantly interested in their lives. And so I went back to grad school in my, my 30s. And so I really, I've really enjoyed it. And now I'm combining, so I'm combining both my interest in therapy and helping people with this previous, you know, history of technology and doing this new startup. Well, it's not new, it's been 2 years now, but a new company for people with ADHD, this mobile app called Inflow.

Yeah, I love that.

So, uh, yeah, so that's why, and I continue to enjoy it. I mean, if, you know, being a therapist is like, it's like reading novels of people's lives, you know. You know, every time they come back to every week, it's a different chapter or a different page in their book. And I'm curious as to what's going to happen.

I love that. I love that analogy. I think that that's a fascinating way to, you know, to hold it, right? Because it's so true. We're meeting— you're meeting people at a particular chapter, right, of their life. And then where does it go? And how does it unfold? That, what would you highlight as something that you've learned about yourself as a result of choosing this path?

Wow, there's, I mean, it's, there's so many, so many things, but it absolutely is related. And I'm not trying to deflect the question. I just, there's just so much. When I was 30, you know, I had no insight really into myself at all. And then when you go to grad school, it's not so much what happens in grad school, but when I— one of my professors introduced me to this men's group called the Mankind Project. This was in '90— I'm sorry, 2005. And for 20 years, I was involved in a men's group where we did weekend retreats and, you know, all sorts of personal growth. You know, it was— it was really— it's an amazing leadership opportunity. So I grew so much through that real, and it's real in-depth, um, uh, work on yourself through the group of men. And then, you know, uh, doing that, I also was interested in other personal growth experiences and found Momentum, which is where I met you, which is another, uh, you know, in this, in New York City, a personal growth weekend. And I've probably done like 15, I just went down to, um, I just went down to Costa Rica to, uh, for a retreat there. So, you know, meditation retreats. So, so it was actually the, the, the path to psychopath to graduate school that began this journey of personal growth. Um, but I guess the big question, the big piece of work is always— and this is what I recommend for my clients— is what like, who are you, who am I, and what do I want? You know, but maybe the first question is, what do I want, which is so hard for us to ask— to answer.

It sounds so simple, right? But it's such a complex question to answer.

It's very complex with all the social and familial, family and political and forces that are— that act on us as children. And religion, you know, it's like, often I see it just takes— that's what our adult years are for, to peel those layers back. You're like, well, do I really want to wear this coat anymore? Do I want to wear this mask? And so that's been the journey, my personal journey, and, you know, many of my clients Yeah, I love that.

And I— it makes me think of this aspect of when you say peeling back, right? Like this piece around unlearning, because I think that's so much of our adult lives. If we choose in, right, to like an intentional healing route, there's so much unlearning, right? Because it's really determining, does this belong to me? Does this belong to somebody else? Am I doing this because I want to? Am I doing it because I'm supposed to? You know, and so as I hear you speak about peeling back the layers, I think of how important it is to set so much down, you know, like set so much down and be willing to try a new way, you know, take on a new perspective, uh, which is an incredible part of the journey.

Yeah, and you can set it down, like, uh, religion is a good example. You can say this is what— it's not for me, set it down, and then realize, you know what, I— there were some parts of that I really liked, and pick it back up. But when you pick it back up, it's, uh, It's for you. It's like you've made a decision that this is something I want to reincorporate into my life, and this is how I want to do it. So it's like, it's not necessarily we're throwing out everything that we learned or the baby in the bathwater. But I do think it is a process of putting it all out in front of us and saying, well, does this fit? You know, does this fit? How is this going to be incorporated into like my adult life in a, in a choiceful way?

Yeah, for sure. How, like, how will it support me in going where I'm looking to go, right? What kind of, you know, does it align? And then adjust accordingly. So I think that that piece is, is significant. Well, you sort of touched on one of the questions I was going to ask you a little bit later on too, in sharing how you've regularly attended different retreats and your personal development work. And one of the things I was going to ask you is, as someone who holds space for so many children and adults to heal and thrive, you know, what do you do as a practitioner, you know, to be able to sustain that? And so you tapped into it a bit, but I was wondering, can you expand upon how do you uphold your own routines in order to be able to help so many people?

Well, I think there's two parts to this. The first is like a philosophical, um, a philosophical position I think therapists who want to stay therapists for a long time have to take, and that's a sense of, um, uh, well, obviously boundaries, but not just physical boundaries, but like psychic boundaries. Like, well, this is your work and I'm here as a as a, what's the word, like a Sherpa. I mean, I'm here to guide you, but it's your work. But more than that, I think we have to be, in a sense, selfish to make sure that our needs, our goals, our personal goals as a helper, we're focused on ourselves. It might sound selfish, but But otherwise you can get lost in the other people, in your clients, you know, in helping the other client, your clients, and then you ultimately you get burned out and resentful. So I call this the resentment line, like when, what am I crossing the resentment line? And once I cross the resentment line, then I know I'm not in a healthy place. And the resentment line is, by the way, this occurs in all relationships, but in therapy it's like, if the person wants such a discount of the, of the fee, you know. And then I, some like, well, this is as low as I can go, but now that we've gone lower, I'm resentful, you know.

Yeah.

And then, uh, there's other things about time and things like that, but that has to do with boundaries. But it's true in any relationship, once you start feeling resentful, it's not bad. The balance is gone and you have to bring back your it's important to bring back the balance to you. And that means asking yourself, what do I need right now that's not happening? And if it's not going to happen, you know, this may not be the right relationship.

Yeah, so, so I hear you describing this process of first and foremost being able to check in with self, right? Being able to communicate what works, what doesn't, in terms of boundaries, in terms of upholding different logistics, if you will, pertaining to your own process so that you're able to pour the flow outward. Would you say that— was that fair?

Yeah, I mean, we have to feel like we're taken care of. That's why I don't think selfish is such a horrible word. Sometimes people react to that word like, oh, that's terrible, I need to be all about the other person. But then that's where the resentment and the And then, you know, the resentment ends with you not helping the other person. So by supporting ourselves with our wants and needs, then we actually can help the other person, right? If you're, if you feel like you're a mom or dad and you're overwhelmed by your child, right, you're not going to, you're going to be secretly resentful, and then also not able to really, and that resentment, by the way, is going to is going to prevent you from really wanting to spend time with them. But if you go take care of yourself and say, you know what, I need a vacation, I need a spa treatment, I need to go buy myself something, I need to hang out with my friends more, then all of a sudden the resentment goes down and then you start missing them. This resentment line is very important to manage. And every relationship is different.

Yeah, I like that. I love resentment line. I never heard that before, and I love that. So for you personally, it looks like retreats and what else exactly does your process of restoring and replenishing and pouring into you so that you can head back to the center?

I think it starts for me with sleep. Is really important because I'm not a great sleeper. So I work hard to find the perfect environment to sleep in. And sleep is really important. So I started setting, years ago, what I call a wind-down alarm at 10:30 that reminds me I have an hour to get ready for bed and start turning stuff down and quieting down. And that way, it's easier for me to sleep. That was a big thing. Because if I don't sleep well, like anybody, we're just a mess. So sleep was really important. And then diet. I changed my diet to be much more healthy with low— I love sugar, I love ice cream, but I'm really working hard to like have low, low, low sugar diet and low carbs. And so this has helped. This is a constant struggle though, because sometimes I get a craving that I can't control for like a Ben Jerry's pint. But, you know, that's happening less and less. And then I have this rule called the 3-3-3 rule. And basically it's I have to leave the city every 3 weeks, leave the state every 3 months, I leave the country every 3 years. Oh wow. And that, for me, like many people, when we go to a new place, even if you leave the city and go, say you go upstate, or you go to, you know, be at bed and breakfast in New Jersey or whatever, it just like shuffles the deck. And I just feel like the sense of renewedness and So if I haven't left the city, say, 6 months, that's— I'm in the danger zone. Yeah, for me.

Wow, I love, I love that. And I know the listeners are going to love the 333 rule. I think that that's a powerful way to really, you know, allow yourself, gift yourself the ability to have different experiences, too. And not just for the purpose of actually leaving the physical location, but, but knowing like energetically too, okay, it's my time to have a grand experience by way of travel. Um, and what that opens up, right? Because I do believe we change as people every time that we experience a new place. Yeah, so that's—

I mean, you can go to a retreat, you know, uh, upstate or out of the city or out of the state. Um, those are, you know, you can combine a personal growth experience with this 333, you know.

I love that.

So that— those are like some of the ways I take care of myself. But, um, but really I think it starts with sleep and diet. And not— I mean, I'm not even a huge exerciser, you know. I think sometimes, uh, we obsess over exercise But really, you know, the word I use is movement, and walking the dog is exercise. It's movement. And now I got these bands, you know, like this is my exercise.

These—

I don't know if you're familiar with these exercise bands. You can do like, you know, curls and things like that. But they're great because I take them when I walk the dog. I walk the dog to the park and then I do some, you know, exercises with the band.

So yeah, I love that.

Sometimes like we get obsessed with, I have to do this thing, like I have to join this gym or buy this Peloton bike, and then, you know, it's just such a big hurdle that I, I've learned to start small.

Yeah, and like redefine what it means to be intentional with the movement. I love that because I think, and I'm somebody who's guilty of you know, holding it a certain way for so long, right? The gym membership, have to get in an hour of X type of movement. And I feel like what you're describing is the intentionality around moving your body and it gets to look all different ways, right? By way of the dog, by way of the bands, get creative. Yeah, I love that.

And what I've realized is I have to join a class So like I learned, I went to the Central Park tennis, you know, there's tennis courts in Central Park and they have classes. So I like 45 or almost 50, I learned how to play tennis and now I'm in this like tennis club. So if you like dancing or whatever, it's better to do it in a group that you're gonna running, you're gonna find more motivation from the social aspect of it.

Yeah, totally. I always say, um, as part of spending time here in the V Spot, it's always better when we are together. And so I think that in terms of what you're describing, you know, movement, exercise, right, being able to have the group of people to feed off the energy absolutely helps. I'm one of the people that, that does better with a group. When I'm alone, yeah, yeah, I'm done. Yeah, exactly. Um, so regarding your counseling practice, right, because I know that you do the assessments um, but pertaining to the actual therapy practice, what are you seeing a lot of right now? What are people experiencing? Um, what's coming through regularly, if you will?

Well, um, um, I think, you know, you know, whatever it is, people come for ADHD, but inevitably we talk about two things, like, um their growth as a person, like we mentioned, finding out what they want and what their needs are, and relationships. Whether they're marriage, a lot of issues in marriage. I don't do couples work, but I talk with one of the partners. Often that's the partner that the wife referred for ADHD or ASD treatment. And then some young people in their 20s who are just trying to figure out life and how to navigate life and make their way. And so that's something I'm intimately familiar with because that was a difficult time in my 20s to get started or launch.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny because as someone in my 40s, I feel like I'm listening to that part. Figure it out. I'm like, that, that resonates. That's where I am. So I think that, right, for anybody listening, um, it might be that you're in your 20s trying to figure out how to do this thing. You might be in your 30s, 40s, 50s. There's no, um, there's no handbook. But yeah, I was wondering if you're seeing recurring themes in terms of, you know, right now, the, the times that we're, we're living in. And particularly because I do a lot of thinking about collective trauma, you know, as a result of the pandemic. And I know And I saw on your website that you have experience with trauma-focused CBT, like cognitive behavioral therapy. And what do you— are you seeing a need to use that modality in your practice right now as a result of the pandemic?

Not really, actually. I don't see a lot of pandemic-related issues. You know, that's— for some reason, I don't get that a lot of pandemic-related issues. It's unfortunately a lot of trauma from actual, you know, physical abuse, sexual assault, you know, the old standard of trauma from childhood, you know, that's coming out as issues in adulthood. So yeah, I definitely do deal with a lot of trauma. And interestingly, a lot of— not a lot, but a number of my male clients are now disclosing sexual assault and trauma as children. But to answer your question, I don't get a lot of— you know, it's just a— it's not— it's, it's a stressor, but it's not something that It's a focus of the therapy.

Got it. Yeah, well, I, you know, I think as far as we've come in the field of like mental health and normalizing mental health matters, I see that there's still a lot to go, um, in terms of stigma and shame pertaining to seeking out services, you know. So what would you offer to anyone that's listening that may be experiencing some shame or resistance about taking the next step, you know, and choosing into working with someone?

Well, yeah, I think, I mean, there's definitely shame, although I'm really impressed with a lot of public male figures, particularly. I think for women, it's been less stigmatizing. But I just saw there was one of the pro football players who lost in the playoffs last year. I just read that he went to therapy. I mean, he announced, he told the public he went to therapy because he was so upset about the game, or devastated. So I do think a lot, there's, particularly for men, there's more, there's less stigma about it. But at least my first experience in therapy, it wasn't so much the stigma, it was the fear of opening up, like, what is going to happen? What do I have to talk about? And there, that was a big hurdle for me. But I realized, like, most therapists are just, like, you know, there to be your support and not to do major surgery on you, you know. So it's just like talking to a nice person.

Yeah, you know, I think it makes me think about, um, often the conversation, especially pertaining to shame, is that people get nervous when it comes to therapy, people get nervous when it comes to coaching, right? Um, to go into the issues per se, right? But then there's the piece around standing on the sidelines and how much worse it can be to to not address things head on. So I think about this aspect of a counselor or therapist, it's someone who is there to hold safe space for you, as opposed to what could be perceived, which is often, like you said, do this major surgery with you, on you.

Yeah. But it is kind of a mystery when you just begin therapy. Like, what do they want? What are they doing? Why are they asking that question? Yeah. But it's very important to take ownership too and not just, you know, put your hands in— yourself in the hands of this person, you know. And that's something we don't do enough with therapy or doctors or anyone to say, what's happening? Why are we— you know, what is the goal here? Or to take more ownership of the process. And by the way, if you don't like your therapist, you should not stay in therapy with them. Yeah, give them a chance of a couple of weeks. But if you're just like, I don't like this person, because the research shows if you, if you like your therapist, you're going to get better regardless of the type of therapy. And obviously, if you don't like your therapist, it's a waste of time and money.

So that, that's so, so everybody who's listening, that part Right? And there's nothing wrong with not liking the therapist, right? If it's not a connection, if it's not a good fit, don't throw away the whole process. Potentially seek out a new person, right? I think that oftentimes I've heard many times where people chalk it up to, I didn't like them, and so I'm done with, I'm done with therapy, right? So I love that you highlight that. That's such an important piece for folks to tap into.

Yeah, it's like shopping. You have to, you know, find, you know, 2 or 3 different therapists and check them out. Especially with teenagers, I recommend that because I think it's very important that a teenager or even a young child have a sense of ownership over the therapy. So I will say to the parent, you know, let them meet 2 or 3 different therapists. Because you as a family and then them as a teenager are going to embark on a year or two of therapy, which is great. Let them actually like their therapist.

Yeah, that's so important to the whole process because otherwise they're sitting across from the therapist.

Just wasting time.

Yeah.

No trust. It's important for the teenager to know that they're involved in that, that they can say, no, I don't like this person. Also that there's 2 or 3 other people you have to visit. It's, again, back to your point that if the person says, I don't like the therapist, I don't like therapy. No, you just haven't found the right therapist.

Yeah, that's so— I love that because I think that it's something that we don't speak about often enough. And it's not personal. I think that's an important part to highlight here too in terms of, practitioners and for clients to know if it's not a fit, it's not a fit. And it's doing yourself the service, right, of being able to say and choosing someone else.

Yeah, I mean, you go to the dentist, if your dentist is like not talkative or not very friendly, it's fine as long as they're very good at their, you know, job of fixing your teeth. But the fix— but for a therapist, that is their job, you know, the relationship. That's the most important thing. If you— maybe you don't like their office, well, that you can, you know, live with. But if they— if they're— if you don't feel related to them, or like they are— they are— they're understanding you or listening to you or get you, then it's not a— it's not a good use of your time.

Yeah, well, it won't work. No, great point. Great point. Okay, so we are, um, heading into the final piece here, which is ultimately a speed round, right? I like to ask folks— I call it the Forwarding Four. So I will ask you 4 questions and you will answer quickly with the first thing that comes to your mind, knowing that there's no right or wrong answer. Um, you tell me when you're ready and then I'll give you— I'm ready. All right, name one area of your life where you are intentionally healing?

Self-compassion. Or like self-compassion and acceptance of life. What will be will be.

Yeah. All right. Number 2, what is one of your greatest lessons learned to date?

One of the greatest lessons, so many. Maybe just that isolation is very dangerous for me, you know, self-isolation or not engaging with— even if I feel shame or sad or whatever, it's very easy just to hide and isolate, but it's so dangerous that I need to push myself to constantly engage with friends and family and things like that.

Yeah, that's powerful. Powerful piece. And I just want to spotlight to anybody who's listening, all the lone wolves, right, that sometimes lean out. This is a piece, right? Lean all the way in.

That's powerful, George. It's okay and important to have alone time, but when it becomes a pattern and like weeks stretch into months, then it's gonna be dangerous for me.

Absolutely. Thank you. All right, number 3: What is your call to action to the collective?

I think, uh, everybody is struggling. That's an important thing to remember. So I have to remember everybody's struggling. The person that cuts you off in the traffic is struggling. The person that cuts in front of you in the supermarket is struggling, uh, whatever. Everybody, anybody who's angry at us or hurts us or bothers us, upsets us, it's easy to get angry at them, but they're also struggling, and they all have in— they all have stories of pain and struggle too. And so this We're creating a big divide in our country, but I think it's important to always hold that the other is also in pain.

Yeah. So I hear the space for the compassion and grace for others too. Yeah. Great, great call to action. And number 4, what's your call to action to the man in the mirror?

Good question. I think that's continued— I mentioned a little bit— continued self-compassion and grace and acceptance, as opposed to fighting life. We don't have a lot of control. I don't have a lot of control over it. I thought I did. That's the big joke, right? Universe or God or whatever is really running the show. And so I, I have to just accept that.

All right. All right. Well, thank you. So George, tell folks, where can they find you? What exact services can they link up, you know, to, to work with you around? And I'll drop it in the show notes of the podcast so that they could easily access it.

Well, if you're interested in my services as a psychologist, you can find me at sachcenter.com. It's spelled S-A-C-H-S center dot com. And if you're interested in the mobile app for ADHD, that's at getinflow.io.

Getinflow.io. Amazing, amazing. I'll drop it in there so that they could access and reach you easily. Well, George, thank you for doing the work that you do. Um, you know, mental health, the field, the people, right, with the world. We're grateful. And, um, thanks for continuously pouring into you as a way of replenishing all that you give out, you know. And I want to say thank you for taking time out of your busy day to be here with us in the V Spot. We are grateful, you know, appreciate you gracing the space. And to everyone else Thanks for being with us for this particular segment of the V Spot. To be continued.