The Truth About Plants, Protein, and Your Microbiome with Anu Simh

How can we as healthcare practitioners move from just providing disease management to providing true health care? That is the question and this is the answer. Welcome to Reinvent Healthcare, the podcast that helps you grow your practice and expand your skills as a practitioner. I'm Dr. Rita Marie Los Calzo. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the podcast. We are super excited today to have a special guest. The microbiome is something that we as health practitioners need to help our clients to balance. The microbiome is important for not just gut health, of course, immune system health, brain health, hormone balance, and everything in the system. If our microbiome isn't working properly, we don't work properly. So today's episode is all about the microbiome and the things that we can do and making sure that we include a diversity of plants in our diets to get that and that we are counseling people to put a diversity of plants. There's a lot of anti plant sentiment out, not just plant based diet versus animal based diet versus omnivore, but there's outright contentiousness against plants and there's outright propaganda that plants contain phytochemicals that are dangerous. So today we're going to dispel the myth about the dangers of plants and instead talk about the value of plants in the diet. I'm Dr. Rada Marie Loscalzo. I'm the founder of the Institute of Nutritional Endocrinology and I'm super excited to share today's episode with you. So we have a very special guest here today, Anu Sim. And she is a board certified functional nutrition health coach. She's the founder of 9 Arms of Wellness and she specializes in helping busy women to lose weight and maintain their goal weight by focusing on gut health. That's what we're going to talk about today. And her personalized and unique philosophy has successfully guided hundreds of women in achieving and maintaining their health goals. She's now training other coaches in her methodology. She's also one of our nutritional endocrinology practitioner training students and she's very close to graduating from our program and she is sharing her wealth of information with her today. She's from La Jolla, California, but she does things virtually and helps people virtually. So we're excited to talk to her today about all things gut health and all things microbiome and about her upcoming book which she'll tell us a little bit about as well. So welcome anu.

Thank you, Dr. Rita Marie. Just such a pleasure to be here with you and talk about something that's we Both totally believe in a plant forward diet.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I'm excited because like I said in the intro, there's just so many, so much disinformation out there about how to get the microbiome balanced and the importance of fiber and the importance of the phytochemicals and the importance of the colorful fibers and all the different, different values they have in there. So I want to just get started with, you know, what got you so excited about the microbiome and working with people on getting their microbiome balanced.

Well, it all started with my own health and which is so true of all of us practitioners, right? Something in our life as dysbiotic. And then we say, oh, okay, let's just dig deeper. And that was pretty much me. And this was back in 2010 when we had just started learning about the microbiome. We didn't have a lot of studies back then, but the good, the good gut by the Sonnenbergs was out. Fascinating stuff. Really got me excited and it really made me think about what I had done to my gut. Having moved to the States, you know, I had decided that convenience was the. It was the American dream, you know, just really saying fast foods and things like that. So I was really embracing that whole thing about let's just eat quickly and get moving, start working, things like that. That. So my traditional diet, I'm from India, so our traditional South Indian diet was very rich in plant fiber. You know, we had beans and different kinds of vegetables and like our thali, this, which is like a tapa, you know, like lots of different dishes that. So many vegetables. I ignored all of that and started doing some simple fast eating that really cost me an immense amount of problems in my gut, you know, and then how the whole medical system responded to that in those days was completely different. We didn't know a lot about ibs, sibo, all of that stuff. And it was more like just a little bit of gas. You constipated, what's the big deal? Have some of this, you'll be fine. I felt. I didn't feel seen. I felt ignored. So I decided I'm going to take my science background and start working on it. And that's when I discovered the microbiome. The human microbiome project was just, you know, coming up with some incredible information for us. And it finally dawned on me that I was not taking care of my forever guests. And that's when it all started.

Interesting. So I just want to say something about that. You said we first started to discover the microbiome. That's back 10 years ago, 14 years ago, whatever was when it first became popular and it first became known to mainstream and people were like, oh, the microbiome. And I've been in practice for over 30 years. And from the very start, one of the first things I did with people, we called it the gut flora. We didn't call it the microbiome. And yeah, we didn't have the DNA projects to look at the, you know, the, the various DNA and the, the structure of these organisms. But we've known about it for a very long time. Ancient cultures have known about it forever. The cultures that include yogurt and kimchi and sauerkraut and kefir and other a probiotic rich foods in the diet. So it's really from an American standpoint, from a, you know, kind of a Western medicine type of standpoint, microbiome has made its heyday, let's just say made its, its presence known. But it's been something we, people like me who've been in practice for decades. Right? That's what we did. That's what we did from the start. Let's get you moving. Let's get that, that gut. And the whole thing about Sibo, like, sibo is not a new disease. Right? But I mean, I've known about that forever, but nobody knew about that. Right. The same thing with IBS and the same thing with metabolic syndrome and all those things that are now becoming more known and part of it because we have the Internet and because we have people doing podcasts like this and we have blogs and all that. But it is, it's ancient wisdom. It's not new.

Hundred percent agree with what you said. Because I remember my grandmother used to ferment rice, you know, and today, like we, we say, oh, rice, it's a carbohydrate. You can't really digest it or you're going to gain weight or your blood sugar is going to spike. But in those days, they fermented the rice in my culture, and so it was so much more easier for someone to digest it. And it didn't have the same ramifications it does today on the carbohydrate. And thinking about the carbohydrate insulin model, you know. Insulin model.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, and I, I like what you said, and this is something we're going to see, we see all the time in our practices, is that people want convenience, people want to be able to just grab food. And that's what you felt prey to when you first moved to the States. And I will say that, you know, just feeding the microbiome, back in the day, the, when I first started doing this, the only way that you got fermented foods was when you made them yourself. And I used to, you know, do big vats of sauerkraut and all. And then we found one brand back in, I don't know, it was back in the late 80s, early 90s that had it. It was a brand from Santa Cruz, California and they started shipping across and that was the only brand of sauerkraut. Now we go to this farmer's market and you can get 10 different varieties of freshly made fermented foods. And people are into it. And we see advertisements on the super bowl even about microbiome and probiotics and all this. So it's really nice that it's getting out there. But I also think there's a lot of misinformation. So you mentioned the value of plants. So I want to talk about why plants are an important aspect of a diet in order to keep a healthy microbiome.

Well, I think when we look at this is something that I've seen in my practice. I've seen it with me as well. You know, when you look at a gut microbiome test, you realize that, I mean, and if you choose a test that is like whole genome sequencing, we really look at the DNA sequencing of the microbes from the distal colon. We realize that, you know, that these microbes really prefer sacrolytic fermentation to proteolytic fermentation. In other words, they prefer carbohydrate fermentation to, to protein fermentation. Because from the carbohydrate fermentation they are able to make a lot of metabolites like short chain fatty acids, butyrate, things like that, vitamins without any toxic overload with the proteins. Let's say you are on a carnivore diet, you know, and you're eating a lot of meat, but you're not eating any fiber. These microbes are really starved for fuel and because that is what they use to make all of these short chain fatty acids. But they're not going to starve, they're going to use that protein. But by using that protein, they're also building toxins. I see this in report after report after report that clients who are on a largely protein based diet will have like hydrogen sulfide, a lot of ammonia, methane, a lot of gut imbalances, dysbiosis, and that is the, that Is one of the reasons I wrote the book. I just, I really want this to get across to people. It doesn't matter what protein you choose. Choose the protein that you wish to eat, but surround yourself with a lot of plant centric foods. Because research, a lot of research has shown that comparing people who eat just car on a carnivore diet to someone who eats meat but also has a lot of fiber in their diet, huge difference, their toxic overload decreases a lot. So that was enough for me to say I need to dig deeper. I need to find out what these plants are doing for us and really pass this message on to my clients and readers.

Nice. And that's what you're doing in your book. You've got all that research in your book. That's good to know. Because here's what I hear all the time is that, oh, my life changed for the better when I gave up all the plants and I just started, you know, doing carnivore and I just started eating meat and I don't have constipation and I don't have gas and bloating anymore. What do you say in response to that when clients tell you that?

I do have clients who have said that. Where they come to me, right? By the time they come to me, to me they've been on very restrictive diets, low fodmap, you name it. You know, because they've been, they haven't grown all of these microbes. You need special bacteria to, to digest your flavonoids or your isoflavones or things like that. Right. And if they're on a very restrictive diet, obviously they don't have the right people at the party. So, so then they blame the diet. But it's really about how do you digest this plant material by supporting it and not being on these restrictive diets. And it's also connected to obesity. Like a lot of my, I mean, I think there's a research out of Weisman Institute in Israel that, that talks about this, about how people who are on very restrictive diets have very, have low number of bacteria digesting flavonoids and that what, what happens is they hold the body, the microbiome holds on to the gut. Obesity memory. You could have lost the weight and all your metabolic functions, you know, blood pressure, blood sugar would, could be back to normal. But that obesity memory lingers. And because that memory lingers, the weight comes back. The only way to handle that is to increase plant foods, plant material up those flavonoids. And when I say Plant based diets or plant centric diets. I mean, a whole micronutrient phytochemical rich diet. Not just saying, okay, I'm vegan, I'm going to have like a vegan donut or something like that. And you, Dr. Maria, you make that distinction very clear to your students. Like that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, you know, a micronutrient rich diet.

Yeah.

So I mean it is so simple. You don't have to, you don't have to have a battle about this. I think saying let's have a little bit of good from everything, right? I mean, choose the protein that you wish. But I will tell you, the research that I've done shows that even when you're eating a carnivore diet, if you're able to add more plant based protein, protein, the microbiome is happier. There's no question about that. There's so many studies on, on this.

So I, yeah, I want to see those studies because I need to have that more of that in my arsenal versus, you know, 30 something years of experience. I've seen this. But when somebody who is promoting a carnivore lifestyle is pushing their stuff, they, well, there's no evidence. I want to show the evidence.

Right.

I want to be able to have the evidence in my pocket. So when you say people are on restrictive diet, go back to that. What do you mean by restrictive diets?

Restrictive diets are diets that are completely eliminating certain, certain foods. Like let's say, oh, I can't digest beans, I, I get very gassy or something like that. So no beans, no lentils because they've heard from some person on Instagram that that has a lot of lignans and fight phytates and stuff like that. That's not good. I even had one client comes tell me I'm not going to do flaxseed because that can increase breast cancer. Never heard of that before. So the, there's a lot of that going on where people are just getting misinformed about things. And I feel like our bodies are so individual that, see we, we do have to respect that bio individuality. But if you go about it as an experiment, you know, let's say, okay, I feel like I do much better on a carnivore diet. Fine, I accept that you are in a state right now where you're not able to add all these plants because you probably don't have the bacteria to do the digestion like Cellulase. You Know, I mean, you don't have the enzymes, you don't have, like, for example, a lot of people come to us with dairy problems, right. They don't have. They are lactose intolerant, so what happens. But they still want to have the dairy. It's the same thing with plants. You know, you just have to have the right kind of enzymes to digest plant material. And in. And they are. We are not doing the digesting. Our microbes are doing the digesting. And the more we feed them the right kinds of fuel, we're going to have the right species and our alpha diversity is going to increase. We need species richness, we need evenness, we need a resilient microbiome, and that really comes from diet. Numero uno is diet.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And I see a lot of people who. It's like a catch 22. They can't. They don't eat the plants because they get bloated or gassy or whatever. They. They have. They've been told they have oxalate sensitivity and they're afraid of kidney stones or they have, you know, eye crystals and whatever. And, um, so they don't eat those plants. How do they improve? Or the people who have a histamine intolerance. Right. And they don't eat any fermented foods because it aggravates that. So how do we break through.

Yeah.

And get the diversity without causing a lot of symptoms along the way?

And. And that's a fantastic question, I think, because I do see a lot of clients who come in with when. And we do a microbiome test and then we see that there's histamine intolerance. They don't have the oxalate digesting bacteria. They have elevated levels of, like, firmicutes and bacterioides. They may have some really high prevalence of proteobacteria, which is not the best solution. Then you also see IBS patterns, you know, like certain bacteria that are definitely colitis and IBD patterns, you know, that immediately give you a. A little hint that there's something going on. There's dysbiosis, there's a lot of inflammation. So the first thing we do is take care of symptoms because if they start feeling better in their body, they're more apt to listen to. Oh, yeah, maybe these plants are helping me. But when they're feeling crummy and they just. They do. They don't want it. I mean, it's obvious. Right. None of us do. I remember going through that where I, I couldn't digest black beans at all. You know, I had such a problem with beans. And then when I slowly started adding some Ayurvedic herbs and Chinese herbs, in those days, I mean, like even 15 years ago, we didn't know, we didn't know a lot about probiotics. And so adding all of that and slowly. I still remember the day when I could have a black bean soup without any enzymes. That, I mean, that was like the highlight of my life, you know, because I love beans and not being able to eat it was just causing such a heartache for me, you know, because food is important. We, you know, you enjoy food. Right. And so for someone like that with a histamine intolerance, I would start with a low histamine and then kind of slowly just add some of those mid histamine foods and then slowly add more foods. And as long as there's balance, I think eventually you start getting the right people, right bacteria to grow. But if you're always scared that I don't have the, I don't have the, I cannot digest this, then you're going to have less and less diversity. You don't have the keystone species fighting your battles. And in the end, it's like, it's not a happy solution because the microbiome helps you in so many different ways. Like you said, it's like blood sugar, you know, your cholesterol, your cardiovascular issues. Post stroke, they've seen that. Post stroke, so many people have that whole microbiome picture completely change. So it becomes very important to start feeding the microbes at that point. Okay.

And so it sounds like what you're saying is more of an elimination diet. So you do eliminate the foods that cause the problem, but that's not the end, end goal.

No.

For the rest of your life, you're staying on this restrictive diet. You're doing that while you're slowly improving the diversity.

Yeah.

Which it comes to, you know, fasting is the ultimate elimination diet. And a lot of people do super well. That was my saving grace when I did a very prolonged fast back in my 20s and I was able to get over all the problems that I had. Not everybody's willing to do or able to, to do a prolonged fast. That's why I think a lot of folks do well on a just carnivore. They eliminate all plants.

Yeah.

And that could be their form of elimination diet for a while to allow things to heal as long as it's not creating new problems like all the putrefactive bacteria and all that come from the protein digestion and that they don't completely discombobulate their cardiovascular system while they're doing it. So what, what's your feeling about food allergy testing for those people when they're like on a really limited diet or are they on a limited diet because they've done food allergy testing and shown up with 27 different foods that they don't tolerate?

Well, I've seen both and I feel like an elimination diet is a lot more powerful than any food allergy test. You know, I just have to say that because that's what I see in my practice as, as soon as, because they get hands on real time information about how they're doing or not doing on a certain food. But my end goal is always adding foods back. Let's add it back to see what's happening. Even if it's something like gluten or dairy, they need to know because it's really hard for people to just accept elimination and saying, oh, they're never going to be off of these foods for life unless they see how it affects them. So the putting the foods back in the diet is as important as taking the foods out of the diet. And a lot of people will. A lot of people.

You mean as a test, a provocation? Right. So elimination is not enough. It has to be elimination provocation.

Exactly.

So that you know how it's affecting.

You know how it's going, it's affecting you. They really understand that, you know, how, you know, getting off the elimination, is that helping them or perturbing them more? You know, and once they have that in, you know, their own understanding of it, then they're able to decide for themselves, hey, I don't know if gluten is such a great choice or maybe I should just have a little bit of gluten. What or what kind of gluten. And again, I feel like the biggest thing that I see is ultra processed foods because my population is largely women who are trying to lose weight. So if you're eating a lot of sugar and flour, those are hedonic foods. And that insatiable hunger keeps coming at them and it's never, they're never going to have answers about their weight loss and weight management. So. But by doing that, by eliminating certain foods and just adding those foods and having their own understanding of it, it makes things a little bit easier for them. You know, then they say to me, oh, I'm not doing that anymore, because I know what it means. That means I'M going to the loo right after eat, and I don't like that, you know?

Yeah.

So that means that's still in the repair because we should be able to eat most foods, right? You know, I mean, but.

Well, not most foods in this today's world.

Not in today's world, but what I'm saying.

Real foods that come from nature.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Because I don't even. I don't even call the ultra processed hedonic foods as food.

I think of it food like substances.

Yeah, it is a drug. Let's just call it what it is. It's a. I mean, I wish they would label and just put a warning on these foods and call them what it is. It is affecting the same part of your brain as a drug like cocaine or alcohol. Right?

Absolutely.

So why are we struggling so much to let people know that this is not good? We have young kids addicted to this crap. You know, I mean, just. It's frustrating.

Yeah, well, it is. And it goes back to the foods that are sold, the foods that are promoted. It's not about helping us to get healthier. General Foods doesn't sit down and say, how can we make us healthy again? They sit down and say, how can we increase our bottom line? And they're putting into the food products. Food products, I call them food like substances. They're putting in just the right amount of sugar for their. To not make it like, oh, that's too sweet. But to have that bliss factor of, oh, I want more, I want more, I want more. Kind of like you said, cocaine or other drugs. So it's really. It's really a financial thing. You know, we can't read the labels, and we can't trust the fda, even who gets funding from these companies. We can't trust that they are actually out for our own good. And so when we're talking to clients, I would love to hear how you do it. I learn from everybody I know, everybody that listens to everybody else, that teaches people. How do we speak to people in such a way to empower them and motivate them and inspire them to make the changes? I know how to empower them to make the changes because I can give them the right tools and recipes and all that, but it's getting them to be willing to follow through. That's. You. Seems to be a biggie.

That's a. That's a great question. Because it really depends on where your client is when they come to see you. It depends on the stage of Change, right. If they are just contemplating change, they are not going to listen to what you have to say. They're still thinking about it, but if they are ready to take action, then we just really had to get, get to what is your goal? What is, what does, what does optimal health look like for them? For some, it's like, I just don't, I want to get off medication. I don't want to be on three different medications for high blood pressure and I don't want to be on insulin, you know, shots. So for, for them, it's very clear, you know, they're willing to take the next step because the pain is very clear to them. But for someone who's just like, oh, I don't know about this, you know, and I tell them, you know, you need to go on a low carbohydrate diet because you are, you're pre diabetic. Let's just say that, for example, you know, pre diabetes is like one in three Americans are predi. Pre diabetic. So that's a huge problem. I mean, if we can get to that, we are going to resolve so many issues. But, you know, they're not able to, maybe they're not able to see that. Maybe the doctors haven't told them about the, the seriousness of the situation and they're not listening to. So they are not going to say a low carb diet. When I say low carb, I just have to define carb as the refined carb versus a complex carb, you know, because a lot of people put everything into the same bucket and that's not being fair to carbohydrates. You know, it's a macro. So we do want some good complex carbs, but the refined sugar and, you know, processed, ultra processed foods, they don't have your brain is, is not on their side to say no to these foods. And they, and it's not about willpower. It's where they are. They just don't see the motivation is not enough to take them to the finish line. That's how I is. Is your motivation enough to take you to the finish line? And if they say yes, then I bring out my tools. If they say, well, you know, they're not 100% sure. I give them a skill scale of 1 to 10. Where are you with motivation? If they give me a number less than seven, that means I'm doing the heavy lifting, I am doing all of the work that's not going to work. It's their life and it's their journey. So I usually give them small little tools, say let's do this, come back and see me in about a month. Let's see if something changes. And a lot of them do come back because they are ready. They're so tired of living in the pain and. But it has to be their call. It can never be mine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great point. I always start with their motivation. What's your big why? Why do you want to lose the weight? Why do you want to stop medication even? Because sometimes just wanting to stop medication isn't enough to put them over the edge. But why do you want to. And they envision, well, I don't want my toes to fall off, you know, I don't want to lose my vision. I don't, you know, so those are the things like what is your big why? I want to be able to go on a trip with my family. Climb a mountain.

Yeah. Or play with your granddaughter.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we have to get to their why.

Go, go.

So going back to the microbiome, we'll go come full circle back to the microbiome. We talked about plants are important, the diversity of plants. We talked about proteins and the different kinds of proteins. I want to go back to carbohydrates because you said something I just want to clarify a little bit on. I don't believe it's just the ultra processed foods that are a problem for somebody with the genetic tendency and the out of balance microbiome and all the decades probably of abuse to their bodies that it's enough to just give up ultra processed food that when we get people into monitoring their blood sugar, you know, using a CGM or doing finger pricks and seeing the, the effects of those foods on their blood sugar, sometimes we got to get rid of fruit, sometimes we have to get rid of whole grains, quinoa, non gluten grains, things like that. So it's not a one size fits all for everybody. If it was, we could just say go out, eat a whole foods plant based diet, mostly plants with no oils and you know, no fractured foods, just real foods and have a good life. Right. And it doesn't work that way as you know and I know. Right. We have to really customize it for the person. And right now you can't do high histamine foods. Right now you can't do high oxalate foods. And I always say it's not, when we react to good foods, it's not the food's fault, it's your body is not Processing that food properly. And what we have to do is, yes, eliminate for a while, fix the problem and then little by little reintroduce in small amounts and then larger amounts. The good foods that we eliminated, not the Cheetos, not the M&Ms, but the healthier foods that we had to temporarily eliminate before and then get the microbiome in balance. And there are really great ways to get the microbiome in balance with, you know, probiotic containing foods if you tolerate them. A lot of the folks that don't tolerate the high histamine kimchi, kimchi and sauerkraut and the fermented veggies, they may not be able to do that. They might be able to tolerate some non dairy yogurt, for example, or non dairy kefir or something along those lines, or taking a probiotic supplement. And we want to be careful in my world, we want to be careful about just putting people on probiotics. It's just another pill. It's just another, you know, allopathic solution to a problem. Oh, hey, you have, you need to diversify. Here's a probiotic. We need to be careful about which ones and what, what other stuff and you know, promoting those oxalate breakdown and promoting the histamine breakdown microbes. So do you have, and we'll close with this. Do you have specific recommendations that you give people for specific types of microbiome balancing foods and herbs and actually supplements of organisms that help with these issues.

So, Dr. Rita Marie, what you said before about bio individuality, I 100% agree, you know, because even just simply, like let's say, for example, I have a Japanese client who comes in with like, I can't give up rice, that's my staple. But then we put a slap of CGM on her and she's spiking, spiking, spiking, yeah, every time she eats rice. So then it becomes like, okay, what do we do to mitigate this? What do we do? It's the, the answer is not to take the rice away from her because she's not going to. So the. I, I could tell her that, but she's not going to do that. It's a part of her life, you know, it's just who she is. So we try different things. Like, okay, why don't we start with some protein, let's do a huge salad. Let's add something like natto to your rice. Because a lot of research is showing that when you add natto to white rice, it balances your blood sugar. So Things like that becomes really seaweed things, all the sea vegetables. So she's already on board for that because that's part of her statement, part of her culture. Culture. So being culture specific and respecting where they come from and not saying, because that doesn't make sense to me. Because a western palate and let's say an Asian palette, so completely different. We have to respect what kind of foods that they bring to the table. And within that we can say, okay, this, this and this. Let's make this even better. So you don't have that. So spike. And of course with a cgm, the one thing I have seen is that it doesn't. Your blood sugar could spike, but how you eat your meal, the mindfulness, if there's a lot of stress you're fighting when you're eating, all of that can spike your blood sugar. It's not like just the food. Right, we know that. So all of that is very important. And going back to micro probiotics, I think the strains are very important. You know, it's not just about, you know, and a lot of times it's just the shiny object syndrome. Someone with the best marketing will say this is the best probiotic and people will take it. But we have to really go down to what are your main phyla, what are you missing? What are the keystones that are missing in your gut? Microbiome and how do we support it? First and foremost with food, then it's lifestyle. Sleep can affect it, intermittent fasting can make it better and hormones can affect it. There's so many components to it. And to blindly give someone a probiotic, you know, I don't do that. You know, I just look at all of this and say, okay, now that we really have a good screenshot of who you are, maybe this is going to help. Especially if they have patterns like IBD and things like that. High Proteobacteria fusobacteria. Then I would just check the oral microbiome. Is there something happening in your mouth? And then really get some clear ideas of what to do next.

Awesome. I love your approach. Great stuff. So tell us a little bit about the book, when it's going to be available and where people can find you.

Yeah, well, it's going to be in January, of course, you know, plant based month and it's, I think the launch date is 28 January and Amazon, you know, and you can get on my email list. I have tons and tons of interesting emails about the microbiome and with practical tips. So if people are interested, they can go to my website at 9Arms of Wellness.com and sign up to be part of my world.

Okay. And we'll put all those links in the, in the show notes for everybody to read. So I thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom. We, we talk about diversity of microorganisms. We have a diversity of people in our population just like we have a diversity and within that diversity of people there's cultural differences, there's your upbringing differences, there's all sorts of things that make us difference and of course there's genetic differences. Is we all have that diversity amongst us and we have to be able to address what is it that this person is willing to do, what is this that a person is culturally able to do and then move towards creating this diversity of microorganisms.

So agreed.

Many thanks. Many, many thanks to you for being here and for pointing this out. We're the future of healthcare. Right now we're in a place where our healthcare is not really healthcare, it's disease management. And we want to go beyond disease management and help people to live the healthiest lives so they don't end up with the diseases. And we want to put the care back into healthcare, right, really caring for our clients and let go of that outdated approach to symptom tracking and symptom tracing and symptom suppression. So I encourage you all to get the education that you need to get the read the books, listen to the podcast, listen to more episodes of our podcast and go to ianemethod.com where we have access and resources for health practitioners who do want to be in the future of healthcare and not be living in the past. So let's continue the movement towards that, towards the best care possible for people. And until next time, shine on. Thanks for listening to Reinvent Healthcare. We are part of the movement to change healthcare for the better. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources to support you in growing a thriving and fulfilling practice, visit our website at. In.