3 Moves to Succeed as a Generalist at Work

Welcome to The Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, changemakers, and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science-based interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work, and lead with more joy, health, love, and meaning. Welcome to the Flourishing Edge podcast. Today I'm joined by Shivam Arreardhan, author of Reframe: How Generalists Thrive in a Challenging, Changing World. Shivam is a lifelong generalist whose career spans philanthropy, consulting, teaching, advice, and coaching. As founder of Big C Strategies and a certified Gallup Strengths Coach, She has helped hundreds of leaders and more than 100 organizations navigate transitions, build stronger teams, and lead with greater impact. In today's conversation, we explore a powerful idea that flourishing is deeply connected to your role fit. Many people move through their careers feeling unfocused, unseen, or failing to succeed. But what if the issue is not a lack of direction? What if they're generalists Thrive, to thrive in systems built for specialists. Shivam helps us unpack the value generalists bring in our rapidly changing world. How curiosity, lateral thinking, pattern recognition, adaptability, and the ability to connect people, ideas, and systems are critical to win in this challenging world. We also get practical, how generalists can name their value, avoid common traps, choose better fit roles, partner with specialists, and use self-awareness and AI to amplify their strengths and overcome their weaknesses. In a world that is changing this fast, range and being a generalist is not a liability. It may be one of the most important forms of leadership we might need. Shivon, it's so lovely to have you on our Flourishing Edge podcast. Thank you for joining us.

I am delighted to be here.

Shivon, um, I love the case that you make. You know, so much of a person's well-being and flourishing is about being in the right role, in the right context, doing work, right, that really is your work versus trying to fit into some other model. And you bring a very interesting distinction around just who we are as individuals, and you distinguish between generalists and specialists. And you really make a very strong case that in the world that we are in right now, generalists are the ones that are so critical. But before we even get there, I just want you to describe, and for our listeners, talk a little bit about what is a generalist versus what's a specialist. And then let's get into why generalists are so needed.

Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much. And I really am looking forward to this conversation because the idea of flourishing is really connected to fit. And I think we don't really understand fit until we really understand ourselves. And in a fast-changing world, we have lots to respond to. So a generalist, I, you know, this seems a little bit simplistic to have a generalist and a specialist. And I think there's lots of ways to, people can get into more detail, but I was, I am a generalist and I know from my own journey and the work I do coaching individuals and teams and the work of others is, is that there's a lot of people who have struggled to find that fit. And the folks at OC Tanner did a survey in 2023. And of 36,000 individuals that they surveyed, over half identified as generalists and had some shared experiences around that. And a lot of that was often feeling, you know, not clear on if they were in the right role, if they were really doing what their job description told them to do. They felt in many ways shut out of opportunities around promotion, and that can also impact people financially in terms of their salaries. And yet we also know, I think this is a survey from Harvard Business Review, there was an article about 10,000 CEOs who about 40% were like, you know, clearly owned being a generalist. So we have leaders who are generalists and yet we have a lot of people in the workforce who are generalists. So ubiquitous, and yet unseen.

Yeah.

And so, and I felt that in my own career. And so really started to do a deep dive.

You know, if you do A, B, and C, you're probably more a generalist versus specialist.

Yes. Probably the most important thing that a generalist is, is they think laterally. So they are, and they will often be, might be described as the glue or the connector or the, someone who's able to bridge. And so they're constantly looking across. And so there's no definition of a generalist. And so I went ahead and created one, at least for my purposes.

Yeah.

And that would include having a ranging curiosity, whereas a specialist really needs to go deep and become an expert. And we need that and we want that. A generalist will will have a ranging curiosity. They'll wanna know about a lot of things, and they might wanna know about a lot of people. They also tend to solve problems in a nonlinear way. So they're thinking laterally, and they might be connecting dots. They might think of, oh, this is a kind of an interesting solution that worked over here. Why don't we bring it and try it over here instead? So, so they're going to be a little bit creative in their solve, in their problem solving, and have a wider lens when it comes to their curiosity.

Yeah, I love those, and I think they resonate a lot, right? Look, I mean, the concept of generalists versus specialists is not— I mean, it's at the heart of McKinsey and the work we did, right? So we always, when we even all the way from recruiting, right, you chose when you joined the firm, do you want to join an office and have more of a random walk where you kind of explore different topics, different industries, till you at some point decided to focus on an industry, in which case you would solve multiple types of problems and you would serve multiple types of clients, right? Typically was a path that you would make partner and then you would make a senior partner. There was also a path which was more of a specialist. So you could, instead of joining an office, you could join a practice. And as a practice, you're really, and you can choose even within a practice how deep you go in one particular sub-function, right? So I joined the operations practice, but I was doing procurement, product development, manufacturing, supply chain. There are some people who just did procurement and they deep, deep, deep, that's all they wanted to do. Now, what they wanted to do was solve procurement in different contexts. So consumer versus financial services, because they really wanted to map that one specific thing. Whereas, you know, generalists often would say, hey, I want to look at an industry. I want to be in an industry. I really want to understand the broad dynamics. And, but I want to actually be able to go across multiple functions and exactly be able to bridge these together. Both routes were successful, but it was so critical to make sure that one, people chose right, or if they didn't choose right, they could be guided along the way, which we did at every level to just say, I think your profile and where you're good at actually fits more of a practice route, and hence go there and become successful, become a partner, become an expert partner, or become a senior partner. So I think it's really, really important right around this distinction. And I think those two exactly are, I think, highlighting number one is Do you leverage your expertise and your depth of knowledge to solve problems, or do you solve it laterally across all the different components, whether it's across industries, across functions? And the second one is curiosity, right? Are you curious about a whole range of different things? You get bored easily, and you want to try different things? Or are you actually really, really specific, and you're just curious about so much in that field, and you want to know every aspect of it?

And how important a really effective manager is in helping that generalist understand that that's what they are. Because the reality is, and I know a lot of consulting firms are actually quite supportive of generalists, but the reality is in plenty of other industries and organizations and corporations and businesses of all sizes, there is that the HR structure does not exist for generalists. So they don't, you know, there's job descriptions, job titles, roles, performance assessment, promotions are all structured around specialization. And so, except for when you get a role like, you know, operations, you know, and you know this from your work or chief of staff, but then they are so highly individualized to the need of that company and organization. So you can look at a chief of staff. Job description in one, even in the same company, for one person will look very different than it will for the other leader that they're working with. So a lot of generalists, myself included, have had people who recognize their abilities and say, oh, I need you to do what you do. Just go do it. And I literally had that said to me on multiple occasions. And the trust is there in my ability. And, and I have the trust in their ability to understand what I am doing so that when I go in there and I'm making connections and I'm often hiring teams and I might be facilitating some, some other kinds of changes around culture, that there's trust exists to do that. But for people, for generalists who don't have that person who understands them, that's really why I wrote the book so that they can start owning their own abilities and communicating their individual value as a generalist. I think it's beautiful.

Talk to our listeners about, as you said, right, half and half of the population that you lead, half are generalists, half are specialists. You also make the case that our traditional structures, HR practices, how we hire, are really more wired towards specialists than generalists. In a world that is rapidly changing, help us make the case why actually generalists are key.

They are key and, and more so every day if we're paying attention to what's going on around us. I like to think about, you know, we've been in conversations, I think for decades around innovation, but I'm starting to feel that the locus of energy and change is external. And we're really in a time of where we need to adapt. Change is happening outside more than what we need to drive inside. And generalists, I call them expert practitioners. The generalists who are really know that they're generalists, and know what they do well, which also means knowing what they don't do well, are very good at being expert practitioners. And they can help lead adaptation on teams and within organizations.

What do you mean by expert practitioners, Shivon?

Generalists are really good at trying things, at testing new ideas, at taking risks, at asking what if, at saying, oh, well, let's try that. And if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. Those are risks that specialists have a harder time taking because they have expertise. And working together, you can have journalists mitigate some of that risk, both to reputation, but also to knowledge and learning in a way that really supports what specialists do. So, you know, I think, I think, you know, in a really simplistic way, when people say, well, AI is going to come in and wipe out specialists, I think, you know, not yet. And also importantly, there's really important information and learning and expertise that specialists bring. And I really like to think of the hospital as actually some of our best. Uh-huh.

Let's bring that to life in our hospital, the different roles that play out.

Yeah. So, you know, it used to be that, you know, 100 years ago there was the doctor and everyone had a doctor and the doctor took care of you from, from birth to death. And they would have, they would know you deeply as a patient and know enough about everything. But then as specialization came into medicine and came into hospitals. We saw not just specialization around like cardiology, you know, and epidemiology, but then we started seeing it even by ages. Is it in pediatrics? Is it in gerontology? And then patients then became a collection individually of a number of issues. So when you go into a hospital now and let's say you've been in a car crash, you have a head injury. A leg injury, you also have a history of cardiac issues, and you're diabetic. You're, you know, you have 4 doctors, at least 5, you know, thinking, no, no, no, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. And so then what we now have is the hospitalist, who's the generalist of the hospital, working in partnership with these specialists to really prioritize the right steps in care. So that this patient is, their needs are getting met, um, you know, very complex and, you know, life or death needs and decisions, but really being facilitated by a generalist who knows just enough about all of these specialties to mitigate some of that risk, make and help make some recommendations and decisions on what to do.

And make the connections.

And make the connections.

Yeah. Yes.

So important.

I think what brings it to life for me is like, while you have specialists for each one of them, right, this notion of— but the patient is one integrated person. And you need to be able to be able to link and just say, hey, where do we need to go? Because there might be multiple things you might need to do for the arm, the leg, the heart, or the fact that you're diabetic, et cetera, et cetera. But somehow being able to link all of that is that role of a hospitalist. I love it. And I can see that also today in a world where so much disruption— I agree with you, right? The pace of change is so high. Oftentimes specialists can have two different blind spots. One is I know what I know and I so deeply believe in it, I find it hard to do something else. But also because of that, right? So it's the ability to shift becomes harder. We also want to see a lot more data because we have so much expertise. And in today's world, we don't have the time or we might not even have all the data. We have to fail our way forwards towards the solution. And I think what you're highlighting is generalists typically can be good at that. They can actually work with the specialists and move us forward. But I think the other big issue is oftentimes as specialists, we can have blind spots, right? Because we only know this.

Right. And we still want specialists to know that. Absolutely. You don't want specialists jumping into another, you know, abandoning what they know, right? We don't want the cardiologist to be like, oh, all right. You know, I'll wing it. Give me a little leg to do some, you know, practice surgery on. I, you know, it's, and that connection can be complicated. And I have found in my own career that it's been complicated when my role wasn't clear and my value wasn't clear. And that's why—

So let's go there. I think you have a very beautiful story. You've had your highs and you've had your lows, and you've really experienced kind of this fit. So bring that to life a little bit, Shivon.

Sure.

Tell a little bit of your own story.

And I, you know, it's, you know, people were saying, you know, don't start with your own story. And I said, you know, one of the reasons that I start with my own story is just to really be vulnerable and self-aware around what can be hard. My mother jokes that I had at birth the confidence of two people, that there's someone out there who doesn't have their confidence. So I had the confidence of two. So I was always jumping into opportunities with both feet, enthusiastic. And I used to say things, how much I loved change, right? Which I found out was not always popular. And what I was finding is I was either excelling in the role that I was in, um, getting accolades, fellowships. I was a 40 Under 40. In Boston, people really just loving my work. And then I'd show up in a different role and I'm the exact same person bringing the exact same energy. And I would be shown the door. And I was like, what, what's happening here? And so I was, you know, as I talk about it, either crushing it or crashing out. And what I really became a lot more clear first on the operating context and that my love for change and my curiosity that is relentless I was a history major and I double majored in history because I just loved history so much. And my curiosity was so ranging that I had a ready appetite for change and a ready appetite to solve problems that, that specialization didn't interest me and it frankly didn't concern me. So I wasn't paying attention in the right way to the right environments where I had enough freedom, authority, and influence to actually do what I do well. And so when I started really thinking about environment, I then really had to think about how do I collaborate and how was I being positioned, but also how was I better, you know, how could I better position myself to be in service of and in partnership with the specialists so I wasn't so disruptive or experiencing my energy as that.

So bring it to life for me. So like, describe the role, right, that you were in where you were crushing it. And then I want you to describe the role in detail of when you crashed out.

Yeah. So I was in, I was, I can, I can speak to two roles for each and they were incredibly similar. So I was asked in the first role where I was crushing it by people who know me. And in the first case, it was a college roommate. And in the second case, it was a person I had worked with in that first case. And they said, look, We're building a nonprofit and we are desperate for help. And we just need like someone like you who can like find some other people to help us and get our first event off the floor. You know, like, you know, we just gotta get something out there that people can see what we're doing. Great. What do you need? What check-in do you need from me? And they're like, just let us know how it's going. And if you need help, you know, give us a shout. So I had a lot of freedom. These people knew what I did well. I'm good at seeing people intuitively. I get a sense of someone really quickly. I have a very large network, so I could immediately activate that, find some talent, you know, bring them in, and then at the same time, create this much more sort of a moment in time where people could experience what the work was. Yeah.

So you were playing the role of a symphony orchestra.

Oh, yes. And a catalyst in a—

Of the, you know, of the, yeah.

Right. But with the COVID of the CEO, you know, with the, I can, I can run around and do my high-energy stuff in the back without having to slow down and be present for these other decisions. And so I could be, you know, a catalyst and I can, I can accelerate that, right? So I can really get from where on paper to really getting legs under things. What I'm not great at, and I don't really care about, to be honest, because I'm not good at it, but I know how important it is, is crossing the finish line. I can get everybody up, out, and off to the races, and then it is somebody else's job to make sure that they get there.

So let's talk about a role where you crashed out.

Yeah. So I was in larger, more established organizations who knew me by reputation. And these are people who, who knew me by reputation, but didn't know me, hired me in, into senior roles to solve a cultural problem. And I thought that they were solving that cultural problem because of my, of what I bring, which was this catalytic energy. And so what I didn't realize, you know, of course, is culture is bigger than one person. And you can't be one person changing that, no matter how hard you try. And that the more of me I brought, right? And I, you know, this is like a classic mistake we all make at some point. I was, I doubled down on what I thought was my value of bringing this catalytic energy, which of course just brought back stronger negative response. Not by everyone, but there was enough resistance to the change.

I see.

And I did not successfully really think about how I was influencing. And I did not think about the fact that I didn't have the COVID to do so, which I had in other roles. So I'm someone as a generalist who needs a lot of freedom. Generalists all need freedom because they need to be moving laterally. So we leave specialists alone because we know they are going to go and dive deep, and we know that they're going to come up with something interesting, but we know where they're going to be. A generalist, you know, the more you give, the more freedom you give to a generalist, the further they can range, right? And they can range too far and also sometimes too fast.

So you talk about in your book an important point around context and fit really matter, right? You talk about curiosity and you talk about ability to solve laterally creative connections as two big moves. But the third one in which you frame, put all of your frame, is this notion of context and fit. So what are the kind of roles, managers, and environments that you have found that really allow generalists to thrive?

I often say the penultimate role is really the chief of staff role. Because in every organization, it's unique. And for every leader, it's unique because it meets their teams. But they tend to really function for the person that they work for as really being the Ranger. You know, they are really keeping their, they're taking a wider perspective. They're keeping a lot more fingers on a lot more pulses. A lot of operational roles can be, so we can get, you know, like project management roles earlier on in a career. You can also have all the way up to the C-suite. The Entrepreneur is the other classic generalist role. And sometimes you will see people who will go back and forth between things like partnership and marketing, and they will often have, feel like it's the same for them, but they're actually playing a different role. And I think there's also informally the people who are, and these are the people I really wanna help sort of elevate and give some light to, shine a light on, I should say, is there's, there's all of those people who we know that are on a team who say, oh yeah, you know, they're really good at collaborating. They can be our envoy to the other team that we need to work with. They can go do the advance work and lay that out. So I think that there's a lot of people who are doing a lot of things that generalists do well and are generalists, but are on teams and playing roles where they might—

I would think also head of strategy would be a role that would be a pretty good role.

Yeah, and that's a newer role. So now we're seeing these newer roles like chief of, like these Strategy roles and anything that's future framed, that's a generalist role. And those are generalist roles because a really important, you know, at the end of the book, I talk about these 4 really important skills that a mature generalist, someone who's really aware of being a generalist and really wants to be a good one, really needs to do. They really need to listen. They need to have, and not listening to respond and not listening to learn, but really listening to see what's missing.

Yeah, I would think coaching would be a great generalist role, just because—

And consulting. Yep, is a classic generalist role, and coaching, because you also have the benefit of bringing all that learning you're doing with all the other people to the benefit of the person that you're talking to.

Yeah, and curiosity is like one of the key skills, right, a great skill that a coach can have. So I can think about that, right? So I think this notion of what you're inviting me to think about is, Instead of just trying to fit, right, into an org and kind of a traditional model, there are actually lots of environments, smaller versus larger, where you implicitly will be put into a lot of different, you know, you have to stretch. There are certain roles, those startup environments versus kind of more established, where you're being asked to specifically lead a team, especially if it's a functional team. I think it's really, really important that you find, or if you wanna be entrepreneurial, become a coach, right? Become a project manager. There's many of those things that are actually coming up that actually can. And now also, I think Shivam, with AI, you needed to be able to know. I think there is an ability to be able to get enough across different pieces that you can actually start. And, you know, more and more there is a conversation about, are we gonna have a one-person unicorn? When what enables a one-person unicorn is not a specialist person, it will be a generalist who's leveraging deep expertise through AI or other in the other functions and be able to put it together into something that works.

Right, right, right. And I think, you know, the moving away from function, and I laughed about unicorn because that was literally the first word that when I started doing this research, The purple unicorn. But there was an article about that. And so, you know, everything comes full circle, but just a slightly different flavor. Yeah, yeah. So look—

Yeah, I was going to say, you know, where I wanted to go next was, look, curiosity and lateral thinking, I think both of these, everything, if overused or not used the right way, can actually be a failure. So curiosity as a discipline can be a superpower, but it can also become a distraction. So if you're a generalist, and you know you're implicitly curious, how do you make sure that you turn that curiosity into a disciplined exploration that actually creates value versus just flit around?

Yes, yes. And so, you know, when I have this framework, right, of helping generalists and their managers and colleagues understand their value, if you go too far over into curiosity, you become distracted. If you go too far over in just trying to be a problem solver, you become dissatisfied because because you're trying to be too much like a specialist. You know, I'm gonna make decisions in the right way, et cetera, versus this person over here going, I have all the ideas, right? The most, and neither are helpful, and they're not helpful to the colleagues and they're not helpful to you as a generalist. So a generalist really needs to understand how they learn and how they are collaborating and working, right? And this is always going to be a dance. And the best way to dance with yourself is to really understand what your core talents are and strengths are. So I'm a, you know, a certified CliftonStrengths coach. And the reason I'm strengths-based is I'm, and I'm wired this way for sure, but I really believe you gotta start with what's right about anyone, including yourself. And understanding your strengths gives you that external set of tools to really understand and intentionally use your curiosity and understand and intentionally solve the kinds of problems that you're interested in, in a way that is going to be effective for the people that you work with. Generalists cannot work alone. We are dependent on the learning and expertise of others in order to be effective.

This conversation is brought to you by Happiness Squad, where we help leaders build new mindsets, new habits, and transform their ways of working to truly flourish. If you're ready to unleash the untapped human potential in your organization and operate at your best, come visit us at happinesssquad.com and start your journey today. So you're, you're suggesting two things. Number one, know your strengths. And so, yeah, be curious and work in areas that actually leverage your strengths. And second, you're saying is work with others who can turn your ideas into something of value.

100%, because a generalist is not going to— generalist will will either be, wanna fill that immediate gap and then hand it off, or they're gonna connect dots and help teams and organizations kind of get something done and then they move it forward, or they're thinking ahead around systems and they're thinking future, which they can think about, but then they really have to set up the structures to help others. You know, that's what entrepreneurs are doing. They're thinking, there's a feature that I want to help create. And they're going to set up a structure that other people are going to operationalize.

I see. So really critical to have the right structure in place to be able to take your ideas to implementation. Otherwise, I can imagine you being a nuisance because every day you come up with a new idea. Nothing is actually getting done because you don't have the right system you've put in place for that.

Right. And when I work with individuals and teams and people really understand their strengths and their talents, Either you are in control of your talents or they're gonna boss you around. And when they boss you around, they're never in your favor. So there's one talent in the CliftonStrengths world we call Ideation, right? But you, you can imagine what this is. It's like you're full of ideas. I have it high, 7 for me. So I can just have full of ide— that's great. But you know what's not great? If I go into a room where people wanna solve a problem and I just have a lot of ideas. What I can do is I can find a partner who wants to listen to me, or I can find a piece of paper and a pen and write down all of my ideas, come back to it and think, what are the 3 good ones here? Knowing the room I'm walking in to knowing the problem that they're grappling with, what can I offer as 3 different possibilities to move forward? Not 100.

Yeah. Well, I think what, I think the other thing that I think about this is today, this is possible. Let's say you're great at ideas, but you're not great at thinking through the details of how to get this thing done. Or either you don't have the expertise, or some people just don't have them think through it. You can actually create an AI partner with you to help you through. I have 10 ideas. Help me determine which of these will work or not. What are the pitfalls against it? Or help me take this and take it through an implementation plan and have something. What will it cost? How long will it take? What am I not forgetting? And so really being able today to leverage technology to offset what we are not good at while continuing to lean into our strengths, right, is a powerful way, I think, that generalists can go way beyond what otherwise would be possible.

That's right. And I do that all the time. I say, here are some ideas I have, pressure test them. Or, you know, I'm someone who thinks like this, and I'm about to go talk to someone who thinks like this.

Yep.

Give me some, give me a strategy that you would recommend for someone who's big on ideas to talk to someone who's very detailed on execution.

Super detail-oriented. Like they need to know the end level before they'll even engage.

Yeah.

I think that's great.

Yeah.

So let's go into the other aspect of generalists, which you talked about how you solve problems, how you see patterns, how do you connect. So how can generalists move from, I see the pattern. To, I can clearly communicate the insight, the opportunity, and action. What are some things that you've done, Shivam, that's helped you do that?

I think one of the biggest challenges that generalists have is they so easily see the pattern that they think everybody else sees it too. And sometimes we have to name what seems obvious to us. And in doing that, in articulating that, you're inviting people who don't see patterns in the same way, but bring something else that's really important in terms of getting the work done. Around what possibility looks like. So one of the things I think that is really important for generalists is, and it sounds so simplistic, but you have to communicate how you think. And that is because we know what specialists, we have expectations of specialists based on what they know and what their function is. We don't have that of generalists. So we have to articulate that as generalists. I am someone who sees patterns. I'm someone who sees gaps. And so I'm seeing this might potentially evolve here or here or here. What would it look like for us to have a conversation about how to prepare for A, B, or C?

Yeah. So being able to name it, explicitly name it out.

Explicitly name it out and what you are seeing and what you don't know about what other— that others can then bring to what that is.

Yeah.

And, you know, when I think about this, when I think about the kinds of risks that generals can help organizations take when it comes to learning and becoming adaptive is saying, OK, if we have an ABC scenario, what are some ways we can then test or pilot? And how can I help be the person who absorbs some of the risk that a specialist might feel?

Well, I think what I'm also seeing in today's world, I think in leadership teams, in rapidly moving teams. I think generalists are very uniquely positioned to be able to take a balcony view of what's going on, right? So we might be in an industry, we are kind of moving, we're focused on what we are doing. But being able to see how have innovations moved forward, or what are other people in other industries doing, or what are some things in which technology is moving, right? I think about, and I wonder if a great generalist in the team would have stopped Motorola from investing the billions they did on the Iridium satellite phone, seeing how fast the cell phones were evolving.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Or could have actually saved Blockbuster from going bankrupt rather than just focus on how can I actually sell more DVDs to recognize here's Netflix, here's internet, here's where things are going. People will not need to go to that store. So, you know, in terms of noticing truly pattern that changes the game. I think it's a critical role that even if you are kind of not that senior enough, but you can highlight and bring that value to the team.

Right. And I think, and just even, and even, you know, because we're, because change, the pace of change is so accelerated, we have to move away from judgment and being sure around our decisions to discernment in the ambiguity around how we make decisions. And generalists are more comfortable with that.

Yeah. They trust their gut too, a lot more. Yeah.

Trust their gut. And then also, mm, you know, maybe, all right, we did try that. Let's pull it back. Right?

Do rapid iteration.

Yeah.

And be comfortable failing and learn from it.

Yep. And, you know, and I think about how much, you know, you think about like, I work a lot within the social sector as well. And I'm thinking about all of these organizations, for example, who work on workforce development. And they have been thinking about how to move people into careers that might no longer, you know, that maybe in 10 years don't exist. Those organizations were developed by generalists, you know, because they wanted to meet a need and then found specialists to help them do that. And they're going to be called forward around how to be adaptive, but also how to be creative around what does work look like going forward.

So Shivam, what I'm curious about is, I think you've made a strong case for why generalists are needed. In the world today, as leaders, we really need to think about who amongst our people are generalists and deploy them in the right roles. But for those who are unaware or kind of like, no, but I think we've built— the reality is, as you said, we live in a predominantly specialist world, especially as people get promoted. Even if you're a generalist, if you're going to lead a business, you are expected to know or a function, right? They want you because you have to mentor others, coach others. So at some point, a certain degree of specialization is critical to be able to move up because that's how the game is played, right? I always say, if you live on Earth, don't fight gravity. If you're operating in a world where a big chunk is designed around specialists, you have to figure out yourself. Yes, it'll be great if others can make opportunities for you and put you in the right roles. So what would be an advice you would have for a generalist to thrive in a specialist world? Versus kind of go become an entrepreneur, go become a coach, or just be comfortable being in a project manager role, but know that you will never rise to be a CEO. Because I have not seen too many CEOs who haven't at some point, or even at McKinsey, I didn't see too many people who made partner unless they leveraged their generalist skills, but also built specialization in some shape or form to continue kind of moving up and then kind of widened out, right? So this notion of kind of, you know, an hourglass shape, you talk about that in in your book too. So what might be advice you have for generalists? What are some things that they can do to kind of win or at least thrive in a specialist world?

Yeah, I think it's the question, right, that we need to answer. And I think there's a couple things. First of all, a generalist, you need to know what your value is and what your individual value proposition is that you are bringing individually. One. Two, you need to stay connected to other generalists because generalists are becoming more important and more needed. And so you will have opportunities because of external pressures and this, and this pace of change that we are experiencing to actually flex your generalist muscle while having, if you're in an organization that is really locked down by function, they are gonna be even more challenged in the coming years rather than less challenged. And so you will have more opportunity to be a partner to the people that you already know and an organization that you're already in and think in a way that's considered how to help that organization adapt. So I do think there's, I think there's opportunity existing in every organization for generalists to be elevated. In terms of awareness. I also think that there's a lot more generalists in organizations. And so the thing that they can also help organizations do is how do we learn, right? So maybe it's not thinking about adaptation and how are we going to, you know, do strategy and reshape, but just like, how are we getting better at learning? How are we getting better at collaborating, right? Because those are all indicators of what organizations need in order to thrive. And so it's seeing the opportunities on your team level as much as it is on this, on a more meta level.

Right. But what if you're like, literally, you've just joined and you know you're a generalist? So you're not leading a team, right? You're not leading a function. What are some 3 simple things that they could do now?

So you're not leading a function, and so Whoops, sorry. Uh, didn't— hope that's okay.

It's fine.

Um, 3 things that you can do. One thing is you really need to know your value. And this is the problem. Generalists are defined externally all the time. So the one thing that I always ask people to do is ask 5 to 10 colleagues that you've worked with in the past, what's your value? What did you do for them?

Okay.

That's important. I think Understanding and communicating and managing up to your manager about what the, your role is and what value add can you bring to that as a generalist is the second thing you can do. And the third thing is really starting to get smart about what you're saying no to. So a big weakness of generalists is we say yes to everything. And then we often find ourselves doing things that we probably—

Shouldn't be doing.

Shouldn't, yes. Like spreadsheets.

Yeah.

Which I'm glad I don't have to do anymore because AI does it for me. Yeah.

Yeah, so one, find your true strengths, your true values, so you can lean into that and you can communicate that, right? And you can find the right roles that allow you to kind of grow into that. I think the second, as you're saying, be clear about what is not a good fit. So don't go into a path that you know the dice is weighted against you, right? Or I would say find, as you said, and the third is find ways to augment. If you don't have a choice just to be in that kind, find ways to augment your weaknesses, either it is through AI or it's through other people, so that you can thrive. Because you can always— you will add values in your unique ways, and somebody else does in their own.

Exactly. And the reality is a lot of organizations lose their generalist talent because they end up finding their way out. And I see this a lot, actually, in consulting firms, where someone, they thrived at the beginning, and then they had to specialize, or felt that they did, they left, and then they come back in at a senior role. I mean, you know, a lot of people, you know, and I'm also reminded of like what GE used to do. They would have their managers and their, you know, the talent that they saw that they really wanted to cultivate, they would expose them to every aspect of the business, you know, and we don't have those training programs like, like we used to.

Yeah, rotational programs are great. So join companies that have rotational programs that allow you. To kind of experience. You know, the key thing though, Shivam, there is even though those rotational programs are great, in the end, you still have to choose and go do one thing.

That's true.

That's true. Right? So I think that's the trap that many people fall into is that's great that you're gonna do great things there, but you have to figure out a way to compensate for what you're not good at, whether it is through teams or it is through technology or some other way. Otherwise, it's hard to get to progress.

Yep. And I think when you have curiosity, and even if it's ranging, as you do progress, you are going to be having to learn about a lot of different things related to what that function is, right? So you might start off thinking about engineering, but if you wanna be a manager, you're really gonna have to start learning about people, and then you can work from there. So it's possible, but like in anything, Ashish Kothari, if you're not self-aware, you can't self-manage and you can't grow.

Absolutely. I love that. So I'd love to ask you some rapid-fire questions to wrap up our episode. This is incredibly— you know, you've helped me see generalists in a very different light. I do think what you just last said is so key. It's important to be aware about who we are, how we operate, where we thrive, and choose the right roles, choose the right environments, and choose the right augmentation approaches— technology, people, others— so that we can actually continue growing. If you are If you're not aware, then you can't manage and you can't grow. I think that was a beautiful, beautiful summary of your invitation for generalists to thrive. So question number 1, what's a belief you've changed your mind on?

That we don't all have to be great at everything.

A habit or a ritual you rely on when life gets hard?

I tell myself that this moment won't last.

Impermanence. This too shall pass.

Yes.

A book or a research finding that everyone in this space should know?

Anyone who's read the book Range by David Epstein.

I loved it.

And if they resonate with them, you are a generalist. That's the book you need to read. And if you wanna know how to work with a generalist, then you read mine.

So it's a good complement to the two. A question you wish more leaders asked?

How are you doing?

Yes.

Really, really, how are you doing? And then what I would like that leader to do is share how they are doing really.

In a world where so many people are struggling, there's so much coming at us, that can be such a powerful question of connection when asked with intention and with space.

And truly an open heart.

And an open heart.

Mm-hmm.

A playlist or a song that turns your frown upside down?

This was— I had too many to choose from, so I went with Prince, Controversy.

Prince, love it. Love it. Well, Shivon, this has been an amazing, really enlightening conversation. Thank you for doing the role that you're doing to help generalists feel seen, valued, but most importantly, to truly bring their special skills and ways of being to themselves, help the companies in which they operate, and in the end, help as a world for us to thrive. So thank you.

Thank you for having me. It's been a delight.

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