54% of Veterans Can't Get Hired. Talent isn't the Issue.

Welcome to The Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, changemakers, and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science-based interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work, and lead with more joy, health, love, and meaning. Companies, when hiring, look at where you went to school, degrees you earned, where you worked to shortlist candidates to interview. But what if we've been missing the real signal all along? In this episode, I sit down with Marie Gale and Gina Genero, the founders of Atheon.ai, to unpack a powerful idea. We don't have a talent problem. We have a translation problem. Across veterans, students, women returning to work, there is no shortage of capability. What's missing is the ability to see it, articulate it, and validate it. We explore how the platform they're building is tackling this head-on, why skills are the new currency and most people don't know their own worth, how life experiences from military service to caregiving hold untapped value and how their platform goes beyond resumes to translate, validate, and activate real skills in action. If we can learn to look at people and the skills that they have differently, we don't just unlock better hiring, we unlock human potential at scale. If you care about the future of work, talent, and helping people flourish, this conversation is for you. Marie and Gina, it is so lovely to have you on our Flourishing Edge podcast and have you tell the Atheon story to our listeners.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. This is exciting.

Yeah.

Look, you know, I wanna just start with, you know, if there is one idea that you both want our listeners to walk away with, if there's just one thing, right? They listen to this and they're like, yeah, okay, good. I'm busy. What's that one idea? And maybe I'll start, Marie, with you.

Sure. Thanks. You know, I think right now in this crazy world we're in, a lot of people are really struggling with who they are. And, you know, so many people have been affected by job loss or, you know, transitions in their workplace. And so what they used to know and what they used to feel very comfortable with, it's changing. And the world around them is moving very, very fast. And I think a lot of people are finding themselves disconnected in some way. But what we're thinking is kind of the big challenge and the big opportunity is that if people can lean into themselves and lean into who they are and seek value for all those things that they've done in their life, that there's a, there's a way forward. And so we believe that people in transition need translation. And we're really excited about helping to translate all the crunchy things that make us human beings into this currency of skills, because skills will be the way we value each other and ourselves moving forward.

Yeah. So this notion of, you know, what that you've said so many times to me, it's not that we are lacking potential, we are lacking translation. We're not able to articulate what we know and what we bring into the words of the employer who would find tremendous value, right? Whether you're working at that workplace or not.

Yeah. And it's not just, not just employers. I think it's just accounting for ourselves. So often we've been asked to not talk about who we are. We don't put things on the resume. We don't put things into LinkedIn. But these are things that are often very defining and very meaningful for each of us. And socially, we've been told, don't talk about your kids in the professional experience. Don't talk about your hobbies or things that you find joy in or things that make you who you uniquely are. And yet we want people to show up as their whole selves at work, or we want them to bring everything they can. How can you possibly do that if you're extracting and minimizing? I think the more expansive we are, the bigger we think of ourselves, and the bigger we think of the world around us, so much more is possible. And so I want to lean into potential and not necessarily past performance. I want to lean into things that get people excited about themselves and have joy in, in little things they do and celebrate that.

Yeah, I love that. Gina, you have another take on it. I want to get your take as well on the main point, the main idea.

You know, thanks, Ashish. I think it's really closely related to Marie's, and that is that skills really are a new currency to help us understand what we bring to the table, what we're worth, and what we create that represents value. And unfortunately, most people don't know what they're worth, but we can change that together. We have the power to change that. And I think, you know, it's about the strengths that people bring from every aspect of their life. Every experience creates new knowledge, new skills, and new perspectives. And as Marie was saying, so many of us have been taught to really narrow the aperture and only say the things that appear to be relevant to specific jobs that we've done.

Yeah.

But if we look at all of the richness that we've developed in every aspect of our lives, the skills that we gain through voluntary experiences, through school, through different types of work, all of that matters. And it enables us to show up today with this rich tapestry that's different from everybody else's. So as skills become the new currency, let's really understand what we're worth and let's help others do the same.

Well, I think you brought it to life in an example that you've shared with me, and I would love for you to share that with our listeners. You shared two examples, so maybe, Marie, I'll have you share the first one of the veteran, right? And how this translation made all the difference. And then Gina, I have a second example to ask you, but maybe share that one, Marie, of the veteran. I think it's so powerful.

Yeah. Thank you. I think the, you know, it's, it's super interesting. I think all of us have some relative or friend that has served in military or been married or part of a family that has included military. And, you know, it's, it's painful to see people not able to, to get for, move forward in their life because of this thing that was supposed to be so valuable. And what we're seeing is that it's not for a lack of talent, but we're operating in a talent marketplace that doesn't see people who they are. And so every year, 200,000 US military veterans transition out of service, and yet we're seeing large percentages of them, over 54% of them, will be underemployed or unemployed for the first 2 years after leaving service. And the challenge with that is it's not for a lack of talent or cert— they were skilled. They developed things that they can do. They can they can move forward in really creative ways, but yet our world doesn't see them. And, you know, when someone comes out and says, I was a jump master in the Army, and they put that on the job description, a job application, and someone says, I have no idea what a jump master is. I don't even know where to put you or to think about you. And unfortunately, you know, that's, that's tough that a lot of people don't know how, don't have the language. They don't have the definitions. They don't have the ways to move forward. And so we're We're helping people through our skills summary to find out who they are, have the rich language describe the experiences that they had, and to be able to articulate that power. And so a jump master has the incredible ability to convey strength and calm under pressure and to gain, you know, someone's trust and well-being, and yet convince them to jump out of the airplane. We're flying and just go jump out of the airplane. Well, all the skills that are associated with that person are very much in desire of an employer. And so how do we take those skills, those experiences, and translate them into a way that you can put that on the job description or put that into the job application? And so, yeah, it's not for a lack of talent. And it's certainly not because they're unqualified. These people need help to be able to translate what did I used to do in that world and be able to get opportunities in this new—

Yeah, it's so powerful. I see the same. I serve quite a number of organizations in the US Olympic movement— US Ski, US Gymnastics. I've had a chance to serve US Track and Field, the USOPC. And you see this problem right there too, right? I mean, if you think about what it takes to become an Olympian, the strength, the determination, the discipline, the ability to kind of keep adapting and resilience, You know, it's incredible, right? Like Olympians are a unique, special breed. And yet, you know, most Olympians, you know, the few like Mikaela Shiffrin and Lindsey Vonn and Simone Biles, I think that's like not even the tip of the iceberg. It's literally the tip of the tip of the iceberg. But the majority of Olympians struggle post their, you know, kind of really unbelievable performances to get a $36,000, $40,000 job. And I think you're seeing the same translation issue there of, you know, they themselves not recognizing, oh my God, what do you bring? But also employers oftentimes, you know, it just gets lost to say, if somebody could will themselves and through discipline get to this truly like peak of performance when it comes to humans, if they could apply that towards helping you win with customers or operations, it's, it's I mean, every one of those should get picked up right away.

Exactly.

Right?

Such a good one.

And that's not the reality.

Yeah, it's true. And I think so many people are— we've seen it with young people too who are captains of the football team, or they spent 4 years of college working a part-time job at McDonald's, being part of the drama club, and getting a 4.0. And yet all that they can come out and say is, I got a degree in English from this school. It's like, why are we doing that to people?

There is another place where this gets so often and it hurts us, right? And it is for women who sometimes have gaps because they step back to take care of a— to raise a child or to take care of a parent or a loved one. And I think there's a powerful story that you've shared with me, right, around a military spouse who had gaps. And maybe, Gina, I'll have you tell a little bit of that story to our listeners because I think this is, again, a very, very real challenge when somebody is doing something a bit different, I mean, oftentimes they get questions around explaining, like, what's going on?

Thanks so much, Ashish. And it is such an important story. In this case, we had a chance to meet a military spouse who had been moving around the world with her husband. He had been deployed to multiple locations, and she moved with him, raising children, participating on the base, being able to help run volunteer activities and so on to create the right kind of community. Within the military spaces. And her resume looked like it had a bunch of gaps. It looked fragmented. It looked inconsistent. And I think, you know, you're absolutely right. The situation that we see with military spouses also applies to so many women across so many different types of careers who have taken breaks for childcare, for elder care, for community work. And so as we looked at this lady's resume, we saw so much potential and so much experience that wasn't part of the resume. So when we were able to take her through our process of being able to discover the skills she had from all aspects of her life and her school and her background, what it really showed was how adaptable she was across all the different environments where she'd been thriving, that she was able to rapidly come up to speed and make an impact quickly on anything that she was asked to do, that she was able to build relationships across the community, across, you know, with military personnel and other spouses and members of the community and supporting organizations, and that she showed consistent leadership in all of those different things that she had engaged in and coordinated with the community. So all of these are skills that you want to see in leaders that can make an impact in your organization. But she wasn't equipped to tell that, and it didn't come through in her resume. But once we worked with her, she was able to really celebrate all those strengths and be able to create that line that ran through all of the different experiences that she'd had and was able to really speak about her strengths versus feeling like she had to apologize for the things that hadn't traditionally shown up. So I think, you know, one of the things that we really focus on as we think about that translation is that what can look like fragmentation is often versatility and adaptability in disguise. And so it gives people an opportunity to feel empowered, to tell their story their way, with the support that we try to offer to help them do that translation and really show where they can make an impact as they're seeking new opportunities.

Speaking of women, not only are women not as invested in, from a development perspective, in workplaces, they often are not as supported. But more often than not, we're seeing women downplay their abilities, even on resumes, on LinkedIn, et cetera. So last fall, we had a cohort group where we were asking people to get their skills summarized and found that a lot of women, by the nature of the words and choices they make, made on their CVs and in their LinkedIn profile, they were minimizing and diminishing their actual value. So culturally, we tend to expect women to fit in cert— look like a certain way. And when they don't show up in that manner, we don't know how to think about them in this talent marketplace. And so women don't use words like I crafted, I created, I innovated, I drove, I led, but we use things that are like I supported or I was part of a team or I collaborated. And it doesn't lift up the actual value that we're showing up with. So we are taught to minimize how we show up. We're expected to have a very perfect summary of who our we are on paper, and yet we're being held back on so many opportunities that should be ours.

Yeah, well, I mean, you're talking to something that goes so much deeper. And I'll just connect you to this concept of masculine and feminine energies and how fundamentally in our workplace, especially whether you're looking at AI systems who are looking at resumes or people looking at resumes, oftentimes men will describe themselves as, I led, I created, I drove. And because of the fundamental, you know, the way women are wired, they connect, they inspire, they're doing exactly the same thing, but they think about the whole system and how different people are working to support them. And so, if I think about what's needed in the world right now, I think a lot more of the second than the first. And yet, when we don't recognize and tell the stories and show our skills and capabilities in a way that actually matches what the other is looking for or screening for, I think what you're highlighting is fundamentally we put ourselves at a disadvantage.

Absolutely agree, Ashish Kothari. And I think it's not just a matter of using softer language. That softer language translates to lower proficiency. So if you think about somebody leading versus somebody supporting, that feels very different in terms of their level of capability. And so, you know, some of these women were finding it really hard to understand why with all of their years of experience, they weren't getting through the applicant tracking systems in the recruiting process. And they could see everything they had to offer. They knew it, but they couldn't articulate it. So they were hitting a wall and not even getting through to being interviewed. And so when we ran this pilot that Marie spoke of, most of the people in it were either looking for jobs, they'd lost their job, they were trying to get back into the workforce after elder care or childcare, or just find their next opportunity. And once they understood what was standing in their way, around how they showed up for recruiting. A third of them found jobs within the space of this pilot. And so—

Wow.

—you know, that's incredibly exciting and rewarding. And it shows that if you think differently about what you have to offer, you can show up differently and open different doors.

Yeah, which gets me beautifully, I think, Gina and Marie, to this question of I want to get into a little bit of the details behind the company. That you, that you're creating, Atheon. And take us a little bit under the hood of the system, what you're creating on a very practical level. How are you helping, you know, veterans, women, and students truly translate and bring to life their true capabilities and the skills they bring in a way that puts them, you know, and helps them be successful. So take us through a little bit of the magic in what you're trying to build.

I'll set it up, and then obviously Gina's the expert here. But I think that there are— we start with a sense of translation through our definition of skills. So the whole world looks very differently at skills. They think of things as skill labels. So Ashish Kothari, you have communication skills. You're leading a podcast. We can see that you have communication. But, you know, if I didn't have this as context and you just put Ashish has communication skills, I wouldn't know, are those strong skills? Are those weak skills? Are they growing? Are they, are they helping other skills that you have be different or better? And so we look very differently at skills, but also we look at verification of skills. There's a lot of tools and a lot of systems out there that will give you a nice summary, a good list of things for you to to put on your resume or put on your LinkedIn, but they in no way validate that you actually have those skills and that you've proven those skills. So those are the two areas that we look at. But we came to this because we see a very, very broken system that because everyone has this activity of, I want to tell you only what I want you to think you know about me. I'm going to tell a really great story on LinkedIn or my resume or my cover story, but there's no way for you as a person who doesn't know me to validate or understand any of that. And I could choose a word to describe myself that is very different from how you think about defining that word. And so we're lost in translation in how we define things. We're lost in translation on who actually has these things. So we feel very passionately that we, in order to, for us to fix this very broken talent paradigm, we've got to do it and build it differently and build it better. And that's how we came to this, is we want to right the wrongs that have been created because of this system. Thanks, Marie.

And, you know, we, we focus differently on skills. I think it sort of starts there. So as Marie said, most of the industry focuses in on labels. We wanted to go much deeper. We wanted to be able to define how we think about skills, what every skill in our system means. And we also wanted to define what proficiency looks like. What does it look like to be a novice versus a master and be really particular about what that looked like, and then look at the skills that are similar or adjacent. Look at how recent the signals are. Is it something that you gained 25 years ago and haven't used since? Or is it something that you actually gained just last week? There's a difference in that. Really being able to layer on levels of insight and being able to really understand what somebody's skills look like and what their unique profile looks like and how that connects to the skills required to be able to do different types of work. So we're approaching things from two different sides. On the individual level, we're making sure that we're going through their work and school and life experiences as shown in their resume and, you know, LinkedIn profile and anything else that they're keen to share to be able to surface the skills that they have and be really clear about why we think so. You know, what's the rationale behind every single skill? And help them feel the confidence and the clarity to be able to create their own digital skills passport that they can share any way they want to. And with that certainty, we then start to layer in that validation that Marie spoke about. It's not just a matter of pulling out signals from work and life experiences and school experiences. It's about actually having them apply their skills in action. So we've created a number of challenges and opportunities for them to get into situations and figure them out, solve objectives, meet the challenge, demonstrate skills on the fly. And we can be pulling out those signals and be able to show that the skills we think people have based on their experiences, they've actually been able to demonstrate. And so we can do, instead of traditional assessments and tests, we can actually create real-life scenarios where people are having to apply their skills. So By translating and then validating, we can help people activate the skills they have and start helping them see the career opportunities that might be a great fit for them based on their skills and the jobs that might be a great fit because of the skills that are really required to be able to do the work in different types of situations.

Yeah, I mean, I love that, right? So you're talking on, on both ends, and I think it's, it's so relatable. Number one, let's help you translate and re-highlight the skills that you might not realize you actually already have. So, I think that's beautiful. But you're basically going one step further and saying, not only do we first translate and have you put it out there, but I'm going to give you a fidelity, right, from 1 to 5. Like, are you an expert at this or are you a novice across all of these different elements of when did you use it last, you know, how many— what is your level of proficiency and complexity at which you've led this work? And so now, all of a sudden, not only are you putting it, but now you have some level of validation so that when an employer looks at it, they know a Level 3 versus a Level 1. And you can look to get ahead, right? Exactly. And get through the noise, so to say, of the systems right now that get in the way.

And to think about it not only just from the individual's perspective. So we believe that everyone in the world should have the ability to get their skills summarized, to create a digital passport for themselves, and to join a digital campus community where they can find a rich, diverse group of people and thought leaders and content and certification. It's not enough to just start that process. So we're taking on building the two-sided marketplace. We're actually inviting employers, institutions, organizations to translate the talent that they need. And so we're taking their job descriptions where, Ashish, you know very well, these companies have been cutting and pasting the same job description for decades, and they just tweak it as they move forward. Well, the work that we were hiring for 1 year ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, no longer exists. And so we have to do more than just you know, put a little cleanup on these job descriptions. They have to be translated too. So as we're defining for human beings, what are the skills you have and what is the proficiency level, we're taking that job description and saying, what is the skill that you need and what proficiency level? And guess what happens when you do that? Now the Rosetta Stone becomes unlocked because you have people who say, I have 11 I have a Level 3 proficiency in these skills. And guess what? You're hiring for a Level 3 proficiency in this skill. I'm a good match. You can find me. And so we can make those connections happen.

So if I think about your solution and what you're going— what you are basically building, right? There is translation. There is validation. But then what you're also truly creating is you're helping employers get onto the platform so, one, they can post jobs, but also help them translate. And frankly update those job descriptions in a way that are more relatable to what's needed now and then be able to find that match and that talent. And we actually go a step further, Ashish.

We look at what are the trends right now, over the next few years actually, on the landscape. What are we seeing fundamentally changing in work and tasks and skills? And so we're able to apply that lens too. So it's not just taking an old job description that looks backwards and saying, let's apply skills to it. It's saying, what's the context for this work? And based on the strategic priorities of the company, How does that set the stage for how this job needs to show up and the work that needs to happen to be successful? And so if you think about that framing with the skills lens, that's actually equipping employers to move forward towards their own goals as they're hiring new people to work within the organization.

Yeah. I think it's fantastic. Look, I wanna dig into a little bit around the validation point because I think that was in particular quite powerful. So talk to us a little bit around how you truly— if somebody says, I'm good at communication, I'm good at problem solving, or I'm good at kind of, you know, emotional intelligence, bring it to life a little bit for us around how do you help them actually objectively test and validate that you are at a level 3, you are at a level 2.

So there's a few ways we do it. One of the ones that we are most jazzed about right now is something we called Skills Quests. So we have a library of dozens and dozens of different challenges that people can go into. And be able to test their knowledge, test their skills in action. So they have a real-world scenario or maybe a little bit more fantasy, depending on which scenario they pick. They read through the challenge, they immerse themselves in the situation, and they need to be able to interact with the individuals, with the situation, with the different tasks to be completed. And they have to go through a series of objectives to successfully complete the quest. But every quest has a series of skills. At a specific proficiency that they need to be able to demonstrate. So whether they're typing the responses or talking to the system, they need to be able to work their way through the challenges and be able to come out the other side demonstrating both the objectives and the skills. And we're pulling skill signals out all the way along so that we're getting a sense of which skills were they applying in action in what way, and how does that strengthen the profile in that digital passport that we talked about earlier. So every skill in that list has a way of knowing to the degree to which you applied it. And so if you think about this library of dozens and dozens of quests, then you could be completing one that's, let's say, at level 2 communication to start with, and you did a really good job, you're feeling confident about that. Maybe your next quest that you tackle is a level 3 and see how you're able to fare in that. So we're able to get richer and richer signals of skills in different combinations. And some of them actually go really deep. They're the equivalent of tests and assessments where it may take you a while to get through it and you're poring through, you know, documents or real insights that would come across in a, in a real-world environment. And you have to be able to make sense of them and then be able to make recommendations in context. So we're trying to change traditional learning and traditional skills application and get away from some of the tested mechanisms to make sure people can really do these things when it counts in a real situation, in a workplace environment, and so on. We also have social learning sprints. And the reason we do that with a facilitator, a skilled facilitator, is to be able to have people apply skills in action in a community setting, being able to learn and apply their skills together. So that's another way we gain signals. Because we have to be able to navigate in a small community of people who are all tackling the same scenario and be able to demonstrate how we can actually apply the skills that we learned through boot camps or came from our previous work experiences and, you know, put the puck in the net together. And so we try to create these opportunities where we're not guessing, we're actually seeing the skills in action or being able to grab signals of the specific skill as it's being applied.

I think I can see also how that kind of a program, right, skills quests, especially if you define that unique for a company, for a role that they might be hiring for, can actually act as a much better alternative than some AI system just looking through resumes and sorting them left and right. Because now, all of a sudden, you can have people who are applying take this test, which is online, see which level they are, and then really use demonstrated skills, right, as a way to kind of sort through rather than just degrees or where did you go to school or just kind of, you know, some words that may or may not actually describe your level of proficiency in it.

Absolutely. And we can actually work with companies to create custom Quests. So if they're looking at a particular strategy that they're introducing or a particular challenge they're trying to tackle, we can actually tune And tune these scenarios, create scenarios that are directly relevant, and use those to validate for the company.

Yeah, I think it's— I think this notion of, like, real skills and kind of validated skills, I think, can be so powerful, especially when you're looking to hire large number. I can think about, you know, in factory worker settings where they're looking for large number, or retail, or restaurants. I mean, there's so many of these places where I think there's high attrition, so people are always continuously looking for, for, right, and for people to fill in. And I think rather than just leverage automated systems, I think this seems like a much, much more powerful alternative.

Yeah. And I think, you know, Gina and I both spent probably way too long in corporate America, and we've lived everything that we're solving for here at Athion is because we've lived the pain and the challenge of seeing it done either wrong to others or to ourselves. But I think, you know, if I, if I put my CEO hat on and I've got a company that's made up of human capital, that there are people embedded at all different levels of the organization. I, if I'm really optimizing my management of this company, I want to know all the power of my assets. And I want to know what assets I have to deploy against what problems or what headwinds I might be facing. You know, we hear every single day that AI has disrupted every single company and everyone is out investing very quickly and very early and very significantly in bringing this new technology, this new way of operating into the company. And now they're looking at, well, wait a minute. We've invested a lot of money. We've got a lot of resources tied up in that investment. We got to cut costs somewhere. We've got to look at what, what can go. And wait a minute, we've invested here to optimize the human beings that we have. So let's get rid of the human beings so that we can make better use of this investment. And we all know, we're all thinking people, that to operate and roll out this AI appropriately, you've got to have people in that mix. You've got to have the people doing the work. But what they're doing is they're, letting people go and they're keeping some people behind. And if you're really understanding the human capital that you have, you would have an inventory of who you need to let go and who needs to stay and be able to optimize these investments rather than just looking at who's been here at the company longest, therefore they probably have more pay associated with their role. And we want to get rid of X percent of people, so let's just cut these out rather than saying, let's optimize for skills. Let's optimize for the assets we can deploy against problem solving and take a pause, take a breath before you start disrupting lives and certainly creating brand ill will, you know, or challenges to your company. So I think we're really excited about being able to bring this level of depth and breadth of data to companies. If they do nothing else, just use data to make decision-making and use the data around the skills and assets of your people. To optimize your performance.

Yeah. Well, I think you're hitting on something, Marie, that is personal. I think I'm actually quite— I'm quite sad at the movement that yet again businesses are making. I think from my perspective, I mean, look, you operate in this space. I think there are 3 mistakes most companies are making who are actually even thinking about AI as a way to get efficiencies and to fire people. I think the first one in my mind— here's the 3 big things that I think they are forgetting. I think the first one is when you are doing that, you're basically saying people are a cost to be managed rather than a resource that has unbelievable potential. Let's assume you take 10% out, 20% out, right? Of course, there are some brave souls like Block who decide to take 40% out, but most people are like 10%. Facebook has 10%, 15%, right? When you look at that 10% number, for the 90% that are left, Adam Grant validated this, highlighted it, the lag of a layoff is 4+ years. And all it takes for the 90% is to drop 1% in productivity to more than make up for the 9% that you let go, right? Anybody who's listening, all— that's all it takes, 1% drop. And I think usually it is 10, 15, 20% drop. And so when you're looking at that level, you know, less, yeah, you lost, you gained 10% productivity, you lost 20% from the people who are left. So net-net, you're worse off. And I think that's the first mistake that many companies are making. I think the second one is implicitly, right, go back to companies back in the day that gave dividends versus not. When you're letting people go, you're implicitly signaling one way or the other against investor pressure that you have limited growth potential. That's right. Otherwise, why would you not repurpose those assets, especially if you could take a skills lens to them to say, here's all the skills that I have. Here's our purpose. Here's what we are going for. Let's actually redeploy this talent in ways that can allow us to actually further our mission, serve more people, because that's why we exist. We exist to serve people. And if we serve them and give value, that's how it comes back to us in profits. So that's the second big thing that most of these companies are forgetting. And I think the third one is, you know, we are seeing this again. It happened with dot-com. I've seen it happen before that with M-commerce, which is where basically trusting so much and somehow we are forgetting yet again that our data is not clean. Our— these technologies, especially if you look at Stanford and many of the researchers, as you start deploying it at the enterprise level on large amounts of data, are starting to fail in terms of giving you the results, right? So the more data you train it on, the more data that you deploy, The output actually starts to get worse. And yet we are kind of buying into this ultimate utopia of where technology and intelligence can do all the skills and everything that they can do better than humans can. It might happen, right, in the next 10, 15, 20 years. I don't debate that, that more and more there's so many things that technology could do better, but to actually let your most valuable resource walk out of the door for a technology that is still 2.5, 3 years. Yes, it's evolving rapidly. Every day things change. I think it's a big mistake. But to your point, if you're going to do it, at least do it with a data-driven way, looking at who are your most valuable folks who have the skills and how can they repurpose it versus, you know, just cut people. This conversation is brought to you by Happiness Squad, where we help leaders build new mindsets, new habits, and transform their ways of working to truly flourish. If you're ready to unleash the untapped human potential in your organization and operate at your best, come visit us at happinesssquad.com and start your journey today.

I think those are such great points, Ashish. And I think part of the question actually comes down to how do you know the value, right? Because as we started the conversation, we talked about how most organizations don't actually have a clear view of the skills their people have or the value of those skills. So if the only reliable measure you have is what they cost, not what they're worth, then that creates this dynamic where if you have invested billions of dollars, for example, in AI, and AI isn't yet giving you the returns you need, and you need to be able to adjust your books to, to show up the way you want to as a company, the easiest thing to do is to be able to eliminate people because that immediately reduces the expenses. But if you had the means to calculate the value of your human assets and have that be on the balance sheet, then for every person you took off as an expense, you'd have to remove the value that they provide as an asset. And I think that would really change the conversation, to be honest with you, if you were looking in a balanced, objective way at both sides of the equation and then being able to look at the value that you anticipate AI providing versus the cost. So you're looking at a complete picture, you're making really strategic business decisions, and it's not about the next month or the next quarter. It's about what sets your company up for success to be able to meet your objectives overall, and including the value of your people and what they're able to provide every single day.

So you, I'm curious about this, Gina, from you. I think this is one of the core issues that has plagued this field for so long, that people cost show up in the income statement. They actually don't show up on the balance sheet. And so I'm quite intrigued by this idea of quantifying and putting as people assets on the balance sheet. Talk to me a little bit about how you would about go about doing that. Like, how do you actually quantify and put that on the balance sheet?

So we've given this a lot of thought. So, you know, the place where we've started is, is where companies already look at value from HR or talent decisions and programs and so on. So it's looking at the key measures that companies are already recording, but looking at them through a skills lens. So if you think about ROI as the value gained from your skills investment minus the cost of that investment, you know, times 100 divided by your cost of investment, just to sort of level what we're looking at. There's so many elements that can actually shine a light on the value you've gained from investing in skills. So that's everything from the turnover in your talent, talent movement across the organization, the innovation and growth acceleration you're able to have because your talent is skilled and they're able to drive new ways of doing things. It includes measures like productivity and time to productivity. Think about the errors and risks that can be adjusted down because people have skills. It shows up in, in engagement. It shows up in customer satisfaction. It shows up in your brand reputation. And then you've got elements that are really halo effects around the impact of leader skills on the people around them and how that's able to enhance performance. The way you're able to optimize teams through skills and things like workforce agility and future readiness. So, you know, over these dozen or so metrics, every single one of them can have a very explicit shift that you can see after you invest in skills. And so if you look at every one of those, you're able to see what's your baseline, what's your investment, what's different after you've been able to gain those skills, then you're actually able to see the true value of skills. Will it be absolutely pure? Of course not, because there's always contributing factors, but you're able to actually focus in on the elements that have improved since you've made that skill investment and start to get really fine. And that is a first step around thinking about human capital value broadly, right? So if you think about skills investment as one chunk of those insights and all the pieces that go into that, and these are things that HR departments already measure. So it's not like you're looking at brand new data. You're just honing in and looking at the baselines in the industry to be able to identify value. And then you can look more broadly at longer-term human capital value. And so really starting to think about brain capital, human capital, and what's the value of people within organizations. Yeah, no, I get all that, right?

And all the drivers that you highlighted, right, are— they all show up on the P&L. They don't show up like it's— but I'm trying to like figure out if you guys have calculated and figured out a way to truly have it show up as an asset on your balance sheet, because I think that will be a game changer, right? Because if you're able to consider assets as a net source of future cash flow and be able to highlight to say, look, here's where it is, and if you don't invest in it, the asset depreciates, but with investment, it maintains or increases value. Truly figuring out that one more step, Gina and Marie, to take the incremental value, but somehow be able to put a heuristic into similar to how you have brand value, which is an intangible that can be on a balance sheet, figuring out a way to actually have human capital as a real value, I think can be a game changer. I just don't know how to do that yet, but I think it'll, it'll change because till then people will continue. That's part of the issue. 90% of the world continues to see it as a cost because it does show up in the SG&A line or it shows up in the COGS line. Whereas, absolutely. Technology investments show up on the balance sheet, which then they depreciate. Physical assets show up on the balance sheet in machinery and others. But I think if we are able to do that, and I think as somebody who's doing so much work in skill development, I think it could be a game changer. Agreed.

And I will say that part of my BHAG, my big hairy audacious goal, that I say this all the time, before I leave this planet, I will have figured out how to put human capital on the balance sheet.

Yeah, I think that would be— I think that's a worthwhile— that's a great BHAG. And I'm happy to be a thought partner for you on it because I do think— I think this is— I think this is a critical unlock. I think it is too. For the 90%, for the 10% who I want to serve, this is not an issue. They want to invest in people because they know it's the right thing to do. But for 90% others, right, even though we show all the benefits in attrition, absenteeism, presenteeism, You know, talent development is a key part of flourishing. Costs $12 trillion overall in lost value. But till we are able to put it on the balance sheet, I think we'll still keep getting eye rolls or, at best, when the things are good, I'll invest, but when things are not, I won't.

I think there's steps, the crawl, walk, run. And so we're trying to make it tangible, make it clear, make it repeatable. And then as you get more and more people who are really joining us on this journey, the space that Annemarie and I are both incredibly passionate about. Ultimately getting it into the GAP principles and so on and get it bought off as something that is really important for organizations to be able to report on and expected to report on. I think that's something that we're excited to get to. That's a little ways down the road, but at least we're starting at the tangible and the crisp and the clear elements that can be pulled forward as a really important starting point.

And, you know, it's very similar to how you're thinking about flourishing too, Ashish. I think that, I think we have to stop putting people and ideas that don't deserve to be on pedestals on those pedestals. I think we need to start celebrating and recognizing the, the things that we do value and that we do recognize as contributing to humans' well-being. And I think, you know, I think there are companies and there are people and there are organizations that do believe in this and we have to start figuring out how to sing their praises, how to put them on that pedestal. And we will get there. We will get there.

For sure you will. So look, I want to hit on one more topic before we close. And this is the biggest hit with this whole AI movement has been to entry-level jobs, right? If I look at students who are graduating, you know, 30% of those jobs are being displaced, are gone already. This is also coming for tech, which if you're further along, but for sure, if you think about those students graduating, Talk to me a little bit, to our listeners who might be— they might have kids who are in college, or right, or they're students who are listening to this. What are some things that they can do with Atheon that allows them to kind of demonstrate and kind of get a leg up in a world where there is even a much smaller set of jobs that are available? How would they use Atheon to kind of stand out from the crowd?

Well, I think, I think like anything, Like anyone, we all need our skills translated. We need our life experiences captured and promoted in a way that helps us share the story of skills and proficiency. Recognize— and I think the world is starting to see that higher education and education in general is really struggling on being able to create ROI and value. The degrees that you're paying for aren't paying off. And we're sending children into the world with an extraordinary amount of debt and challenge. I think one of the things that we're doing is We're helping students recognize that just because they babysat their little brother for 6 years or mowed the neighbor's lawn for 2 or took the McDonald's job while they were going to school, all of that needs to be translated into skills. And we help people put that language and that narrative around that. But we're also working with higher education to translate the program requirements for graduation, the program requirements for majors and minors and programs that they're, they're sending students out with, it's not good enough to say you got a 4.0 or a 3.8 or a 2.4 out of these programs. You've got to be able to say, what did I bring out of there as a skill and as a tangible asset to be deployed? And so we're helping start with skill transcripts that come out of schools. And so if you graduate, not only do we help you with your life experiences, but we help you articulate the degree that you got from whatever university can now be translated into skills. And so Gina is going to be unveiling that in a couple of weeks with a new tech offer that we've got, or new product offer from our platform.

Amazing. Amazing. So look, Gina, if there are 3 simple things someone could do this week, right? So they've listened to this podcast and they want to go do it. What are 3 things you would say, go do this now?

So we're keen to help every single person on this call be able to discover their own skills. So come into the platform at atheon.ai, check out your Skills Explorer results, put in your resume, your LinkedIn profile, whatever, whatever you've got, and discover your skills. Put together your own digital passport and come into the Campus and we'll help you build more skills. So Skills Explorer, digital passport, Campus. Beautiful.

Well, I will do that right after this podcast and go check it out and build one for myself. Great. Would love to do a couple of rapid-fire questions to both of you. So there'll be some that I'll ask one versus the other, but this is a question for both of you. Marie, starting with you first. What's the belief you've changed your mind on?

That we can actually translate life experiences. So those crazy things that I— I always tell people I had a Forrest Gump life, and I think that there was power and value in that. So for all those times I was coached to go deep on something and to be an expert on something, nope, come back up and see the power of being a generalist and an experiential person. Beautiful. Gina?

I think the biggest thing for me is that everyone has a story to tell. Everyone has strengths and we just need to unleash it, help them understand what is their own special sauce that they can bring into the workplace.

What's a must-book recommendation? Do you want me to start, Marie?

The one that jumps out at me is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. It's all about believing in those big, hairy, audacious opportunities.

Beautiful. Big Magic. Big Magic. Marie?

Man, I'm gonna have to say I'm right in the middle of reading J.D. Dillon's latest book, Frontline Enable It. Enablement Playbook. So that is my, that's the one I've got all dog-eared and highlighted at this moment.

Amazing. Marie, what's a question leaders should ask more often? What's your story?

What's been your journey? What's been the thing that excited you the most? What's the thing that most surprised you? Yeah.

Beautiful. What's your story? Yeah, we are all unique. We all have a unique story, and our stories deserve to be told. Gina, what's a habit that grounds you?

I think for me, it's about exploring curiosity. So it's always about, you know, what could we do? How could we change this? What's possible? And so Marie gets the weird messages from me at 4 o'clock in the morning saying, hey, if we just did this. That's the thing that keeps me up at night in a good way and gets me out of bed in the morning. It's about the state of the possible.

Beautiful. And here's a question for both of you. I'll start with you, Gina. What's a song that turns your frown upside down?

There are so many. I'll go with an easy one, which is "Happy" by Pharrell because it's just my favorite too.

It's my favorite too. Marie, what about you?

Oh my gosh. Well, this weekend it was— I have to say, this is going to sound so corny, and I can't believe you're asking me this, and it's stuck in my head. But my daughter— my kids have got me turned back on to yacht rock. For some reason, it just was like it was hitting the vibe. It was sunny. It was great. I just really enjoyed it.

It was very fun. Love it. I will check it out. I have not heard that one, so I'm going to go check it out.

It's a genre of music, yacht rock. Just go. Yacht rock. It's fantastic.

Yacht rock. Amazing. Well, listen, thank you to both of you for joining us. Thank you for the powerful work you're doing in helping people translate their experiences into skills, in helping them validate those skills, and then helping cross the bridge by bringing employers on and helping them define job descriptions in a way where they can really find unbelievable talent and really close this gap. I think you highlighted so many of these populations that have so much to offer— veterans, athletes, men and women who kind of had gaps, students. There is so much out there. And if we can just learn to see it with a light lens, which is what you all are providing, And if we can develop them, I think we can change the work and we can truly make flourishing a competitive edge for individuals and for companies. So thank you both for spending the time. Thank you for what you're doing for all of us.

Thank you. This is fun. Thank you.

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