The Workplace Wellbeing Strategy That Stops Quiet Quitting

There's a huge difference in how I felt and performed if I had supportive leaders and supportive teams. So I definitely was working in high pressure, high demand environments. I just started noticing how much of a difference that that makes. It's a no brainer that when we feel good we perform better.

Have you worked in a high pressure job like consulting or financial services and wondered is it even possible to thrive here, not just survive? Julie Russ Bodenman asked the same question and then built a global solution to address it. As the former global head of well being for UBS and Credit Suisse, Julie shaped the first global wellbeing strategy in the midst of a massive transformation and post acquisition integration that touched 120,000 employees. In this episode, Julie and I unpack what it takes to move wellness from a nice to have benefit to a non negotiable business strategy. From building a global champion network to designing data driven dashboards, from securing C suite buy in to sparking vulnerable conversations around mental health, Julie shares the real behind the scenes playbooks that she leveraged to make flourishing a competitive edge for Credit Suisse. Whether you're a leader, HR professional or someone who simply cares about building human centered workplaces, this episode is filled with insights, inspiration and action. Let's dive in how you can make flourishing your competitive edge with the one and only Julie Rust Bodenman. Julie, I'm so excited for this conversation with you. Welcome to the Happiness Squad podcast.

Thank you very much Ashish for having me. I'm excited and very happy to be here.

So Julie, you've been at the forefront of embedding wellbeing into one of the largest financial institutions. You know you were at Credit Suisse and ubs, but let's start with why, you know, what drew you personally to the work or workplace well being from your time at McKinsey and you know, when we had a chance to work together, what was your why behind it?

Yeah, actually our time at McKinsey certainly shaped this why, so I'll get into that. But there were definitely multiple factors. So at McKinsey I was focused on supporting global clients with large scale transformations and post merger integrations, really helping them bring about large change. And we really focused on cultural aspects. We were very much of the belief you can't transform an organization successfully if you don't focus on the culture and the people. What we didn't focus on necessarily is how we support our employees health during that journey to help them manage the uncertainty and to manage the change. We were more focused on what kind of Skills does the workforce need? How do we communicate? And we were focused on, on leadership skills. So we focused well on that dimension. But what I found working for several clients is that many of them were stressed and didn't feel enough support from their, from their own organizations. So that was the first aspect where I realized there's a gap here that we're not addressing. Secondly, I then went to do my MBA and after the M G A, a lot of my friends as well as, you know, noticing with colleagues and even neighbors and my environment, a lot of people told me about how they were struggling with burnout, intense bouts of depression. So I started paying more attention. I myself had the experience that there's a huge difference in how I felt and performed if I had supportive leaders and supportive teams.

Yeah.

So I definitely was working in high pressure, high demand environments. I just started noticing how much of a difference that that makes. And then I saw by coincidence, I saw a LinkedIn post from a colleague who launched a mental health startup to support employee wellbeing within corporates. And I just knew in my gut this is where I want to make an impact. This is where I want to help.

Yeah, I love it. You know, very similar story for me, Julie. Right. 17 years at the firm. My first 12 years were all about large scale transform, but then, you know, driving performance. But I think oftentimes even though we focused on culture, I realized that we weren't actually really focusing on health of our biggest asset, which is our people. You know, we talked about physical assets, we talked about fleets, we talked about machines, we talked about marketing campaigns, we talked about retail stores, and we looked at those continuously. But when it came to our people assets, we talked about culture. Somehow it became this other thing rather than actually the thing that drives performance, that drives creativity, that drives innovation. And so no, I love, love that parallel in our kind of growing up origin stories. When did you know? So recognizing we need to do this is important, but was there a specific moment where you realized that well being wasn't just a nice to have, but a fundamental business imperative that every CEO and board needs to care about?

Yes, there were multiple moments. I mean it's, it's a rational conclusion, right. When we're healthy, we perform better. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. And the McKinsey Health Institute estimates like a trillion dollars a year are globally are lost in productivity due to poor health and well being. It's a really big statistic. But I realized for myself way before I knew any of that research, even before I knew the term wellbeing because I saw it in myself and in my teams. Early on in my career, before being a consultant, I was also journalist. And from those two experiences, two of them really stuck with me. Once we pulled an all nighter, we suddenly had to redo a deck overnight to be sent to the CEO the next morning. And basically the next day our team, the rest of the team that came in had to spend the rest of the day fixing our mistakes. It was really wasteful, it was not productive at all because we weren't energized. We, we just couldn't, you know, you need to take breaks, you need to recharge, you need to sleep. And we weren't doing that. And the second observation for me was when I would spend more time worrying instead of working about the consequences. So if there was low psychological safety, I was worried, for example, that I would be blamed for not coming up with a great story idea for the next day or that I wouldn't be able to chase down someone to interview. And it basically made me lose my creativity. I froze. And that's also not what a news outlet wants. So those are just two examples from early on in my career. And there's definitely a lot more where I just, I noticed it with myself. And I think when we reflect on ourselves and when CEOs reflect on what drives their own performance, it's a no brainer that when we feel good, we perform better.

Yeah, I love that. Right. I think what you're talking about is, I think for you, both those moments came from, you know what? I love this phrase that Tal Ben Shahar sometimes uses, me search. Right. Rather than research. There's lots of research out there. You know, we have all the data that shows, you know, how well being and employee satisfaction drive shareholder returns, like two to three and a half percent alpha that can be generated. We have all the data from Oxford now that shows, you know, 20% more profitability, productivity, creativity, lower attrition. But all of that is kind of heady stuff, right? That's in your head. But I love it. And that was the same for me. Like any of the people who are listening, right? Just tune into yourself, right? Think about when you are at your best and you'll get to the same conclusion, that we are at our best not when we are stressed, anxious, hungry, not sleepy enough, haven't worked out, but when we are able to really focus on our well being, when we are happier, when we are well fed, we have slept well. Really what you start to see, even Individually that you can be at your best and your output is much higher. And then reflect on the environment. Go back to the highest quality team that you've been part of, where you were flying. And what you will notice is many of the elements that Julie mentioned were part of it. You were energized by the work. You felt psychologically safe. You were focused on the work rather than how people would perceive you. You worked in ways that allows you to be at your cognitive best, not back to back meetings and no breaks and sleepless nights. Those lead to quality errors or actually lack of creativity. We just get humdrum answers. So I think research is a good place, I think. And those became the two formative moments for you, Julie. Right. That just said, hey, listen, I almost wish sometimes we all had a little, you know, dial on our head that showed from zero to a hundred. Where is somebody operating from? I think it might create a more human world. I don't know what you pick, you know.

Yes, absolutely. As long as we get a say in those. I, for example, I use an aura ring and I find it very interesting to get kind of a readiness score score and a stress score and all those things. And, and I think it's really good information. But at the end of the day, I often feel it doesn't reflect how I truly feel. So it'd be really interesting to discuss how we could make that work.

Yeah.

Because we can't just trust the, the external kind of the. Or the, the biometrics definitions. We really have to feel and self reflect. How am I actually doing? Objectively, fine. I got eight hours of sleep last night. But do I feel re. Energized?

Yep. Yeah. And I think it's a, you know, there's a practice, Julie, that I've been asking my clients to incorporate. Like it's a one minute check in. It's an energy check in right around the team as you kick things off. One minute. Let's ground ourselves to be present where we are. And just a simple question on a 1 to 10 scale. 10 is I am on fire. I can take on any problem in the world to, you know, one. I am like really depleted. Where are you? Right. And there is no discussion, nothing. But that way it allows us jointly to sense into where the team is and where somebody might have, you know, might had a sick child and I was up all night and I'm not at my best. And we can give them grace, but if we continuously see that we are operating at a 2 or a 3 or a 5 as a holistic team, then I think it invites a reflection to say I don't care what the devices say, but hey, we know we can't be at our best at this level, so what's something we want to shift right till the day we get little meters, but till then. So look, I want to talk a little bit about your mandate at Credit Suisse when you join them. I always say you only leave McKinsey once and so it's always a big move on where we go. Right. And I want to go into a little bit about your mandate at Credit Suisse and how you went about building their first global wellbeing strategy.

Yep, absolutely happy to share that. I actually just to your point about you only leave McKinsey or generally consulting or any company once. Right. I felt at home at Cadiz Suisse very, very quickly. Within two to three weeks I felt like this was a great place with really motivated people. I joined at a time for those of you who aren't familiar with Cadisus situation, a very, very large transformation. The company was in very difficult financial situation and only actually within a year of me joining them they were acquired by UBS and everyone was pulling together to, to really try to save, save this company. So it was a really tough but also beautiful time to join. And my mandate was to really design and implement the first global wellbeing strategy. So to identify the gaps in the wellbeing program, align the existing efforts and really increase the impact by working together across the organization, collaborating towards a clear North Star with clear priorities and initiatives. What I first did was I was lucky enough to be able to leverage a diagnostic that had been made by an external consultancy to identify the strategic and cultural gaps in the wellbeing program. So I was able to have a very data driven approach with that as well as employee survey data as well as interviews to really come up with a hypothesis of what would be our best strategy to address these factors. First we, we created a global governance for decision making to really build it together. Because well being isn't about an HR initiative, it's really, it needs to be driven by the business. There needs to be leadership commitment, there needs to be alignment across the different areas of the organization that impact wellbeing, which includes benefits, it includes facility management, it includes it of course the business itself. As I mentioned already, all of the processes, the employee experience teams, the culture teams, the D and I teams, the leadership development teams, all of these teams influence our employee well being. And it's really not about creating a separate program. So we brought together that global governance. We set a vision, a framework. We created a three year plan with five priorities and the key initiatives we would launch to drive those five priorities or achieve those priorities. We got our first global wellbeing budget. It was small, but it was enough to launch pilots and really test and see what works and then scale that, see what would really have an impact before we scale and therefore use our resources quite efficiently. We also wanted to have a more data driven approach. When I first got there, there was no, you know, employee health or well being dashboard. It was the first time we were bringing together health data with so quantitative HR health data with qualitative data from the employee surveys and really being able to drive decision making that way. And we decided to use that data to always ask ourselves, are we still working on the right things? And we really focused on the cultural dimension. So finding a C suite sponsor. So we had two C suite sponsors. We set up a wellbeing champion network to really drive well being in the business. And we focused on leadership engagement and training. We focused on, you know, increasing psychological safety through a mental health awareness campaign. And we provided individual support to really access some more innovative health resources and ensure equal global access, which we didn't have at the time.

So really holistic, right? Let's take each one of these components and like tear them apart because I think it is actually a really beautiful case of actually having gone in. There were some programs probably they were running before, right? Everybody has some wellness benefits. But to your point, is it a holistic strategy? So let's start and do a little bit of that journey, if that's okay. Julie, we'll go into each of the pieces because I think it'll be a good case study for many others who are in your roles at companies or are kind of looking to say, how do we make this happen? So when you stepped in, you know, tell me a little bit about what the current state was. You talked about there wasn't the well being strategy, but they were like different wellness programs, et cetera. What did you find? What were the kind of things that were available? And frankly, what did you find was the state, what was the current state starting state of wellbeing if you had to kind of capture that for the organization?

Well, without going into too much detail, we had some of the benefits teams were running programs with the employee assistance program. We had some trainings that were provided by them. We had mental health first aiders in some of the countries and we had some of the businesses were also running Their, their trainings. We also had a mental health elearning for line managers as well as employees. So a lot of good things to start with. There wasn't as much of a focus on involving the senior leadership and in a strategic way, moving into a certain direction at the system level.

Yeah, it's very similar, I mean it's quite common to what I see in the organizations today. Right. They have EAP programs. Very low. First, not many people know about them, but they do have them. And often they're there to actually support people who quote, unquote, are struggling. Right. Whether it is therapists, et cetera, that you can access and then people. And then I find often organizations will have either workshops that they're running with experts or training programs elearning or others that people can take. But again, the focus on both of these is on the individual. We are going to give you the resources because we want you to be able to take care of yourself. Right. That's kind of, I often find, is very common. So I don't think it's, you know, I don't think you walked into something that was, oh my God, how could that be? That is the norm in 70, 80% of the organizations, I find. So that's the first issue, which is a lot of focus on individual. When so much of our individual well being is actually affected by organizational factors. Right. Almost 70%. But then the second issue that I find, and I think you walked into the same space, which is the focus is on supporting those who are struggling or kind of training rather than really thinking about our human assets are one of the most valuable assets that we can have. In fact, most of the work, I mean, Credit Suisse is a financial services company. McKinsey was a consulting company. We don't have any other assets other than our people. And I think really thinking about the well being of our people as kind of a core part of the business strategy, where we pull all these pieces together and it's led by the business can make all the difference. And I think that's where you tried to get to with the well being strategy that you put together. So I want to think about what role did communication and storytelling and data play in that? Like how did you convince all the senior stakeholders to really pursue wellness well being as a strategy rather than wellness as a benefit?

Yeah. So coming from a consulting background, you know, my first question was, where's my data? And you know, how do I make a business case? So I actually calculated a business case based on, you know, all the Research of you, you can increase productivity by 20%, you can decrease your health costs by x percent, and absenteeism and presenteeism and all of these things. And I got to a huge number, right? It was huge. And I showed it to my boss and I said, there's no way you can present this. We're not going to do this, right? Because it wasn't. I didn't believe they would be ready to see such a number. And then they would kind of question, you know, my credibility because I just started and I was like, hey, there's. There's this opportunity that you can. I didn't feel that they were ready for that. So I did start with the business case like that, but I did start with, like, the general business case of, you know, you can increase productivity. All of those factors that, that I just mentioned without showing the big number for. For Credit Suisse, we really focused more on this aspect of, you know, we're going through a really intense time, very big transformation, and during these times, people need additional support. So we were going more with that storyline, and that was actually, to be honest, quite sufficient because I felt like our leadership just kind of got it to a certain extent, or many of them got it. Many of them were supportive. We had also a lot of new members of the C Suite who I felt like were really good role models, actually. So we were lucky from that sense. It was also quite easy to get the C suite sponsors and the storytelling was really about, okay, so here's this opportunity, here's what we propose to do about it, and we have a plan, so will you let us just go with it? And I think we just got that commitment to just go with it to pilot things. So we didn't get the full, you know, shebang budget, but we got enough to show, hey, this is. This is working, this is. There's demand for this, there's. There's impact for this. So that was the way to do it, to start small and show that it works. And then the. The other element that, that always helps is when. When regulators pay attention. So there was also kind of a need to inform the regulators of what are we doing in this space. And the ESG reports and all of those things, they're always quite helpful to make a case as well. And then in terms of storytelling otherwise, we did a lot of global communication campaigns that really got people to open up about wellbeing, and we involved the C Suite in that. So we had a mental health panel, for example, where our head of HR participated. We had very senior, other very senior managing directors share their mental health stories. And it was really from C Suite to Frontline and all across the business to show what it can lead to if you open up. And it was amazing the reactions that we got from other employees who said for the first time we're discussing it in our teams. This is amazing, this openness and that was really, really beautiful to, to experience and people who would say for the first time I realized that I'm actually sick and I need to get support and hey, by the way we have this great program where I can get support from the company. So it was, it was really a great way to raise that awareness and, and also raise or increase that psychological safety to talk about mental health and other well being challenges. We didn't focus only on mental health. We also talk about physical health. And then at UBS there's a really big focus on cancer as well. Working with cancer.

Yeah. So it's so interesting right as you thought about, you know, there's a strong business case as you said, you calculated the number. I won't have you say it here but like I'll, I'll just, you know, look friends as business leaders, the total cost of work well being. World Economic Forum. So Julie didn't say it. Our work at World Economic Forum highlights this right from work that we can see that $12 trillion in global economic value that's lost globally from poor work wellbeing. Majority of it is from presenteeism or productivity. The rest is attrition, absenteeism and ability to attract. That's 10% of GDP. So what does it mean for a company? You know, if you wanted to do rough math, 10% of your top line is the total impact is what it is costing you. If you want to make it little specific you can look at Alex Edmond's work. Two to three and a half percent higher shareholder returns that you're leaving on the table year over year. Right. Over 10 years it's a 30 to 40% alpha that you can generate for your shareholders. If you pursue this as a strategy. That is the impact of work well being with all the work wellbeing companies drive higher returns than all the other companies. You can look at the data from Oxford that really looked at a portfolio of the top 100 companies. I am with you Julie. When the lack of awareness around this huge issue is so big that when you present it many people can get, they're like yeah, I don't buy it. They don't buy it because they don't think about it as a strategy. They think about it as kind of a band aid. And yes, none of those numbers are achievable with band aid solutions, but they will be achievable if we think about this as a strategy. So I like, you have to meet clients where you are, right? And so for you started with like, nobody's gonna buy this. I'm one person who's just stepped in. They're going to be like, what is Julie smoking? So let's start with at least the base level that people agree with. Right. But I also love what your point around role modeling and normalizing the conversations around mental health. You know, it is amazing. A lot of people I had this conversation with Jen Fisher, who was the chief well being officer for Deloitte, and she said, you know, it's so funny. Even me, I felt a lot comfortable when I got cancer to tell people I had cancer and that I needed time off. But we just don't feel comfortable saying, I'm burnt out or I'm close to burnt out. First, we don't even realize it. And then to be able to say, hey, I need some time off, I'm really struggling, I think being able to normalize that conversation. And by the way, we are in a new normal in the US One in five adults is struggling with some level, will experience some level of mental illness, not even mental struggles. Mental illness in a year. Which means if you have 10 people or if you have an eight person team, at least one of them. Mental illness story is real for them. Somebody is struggling. They or somebody they know is struggling. Right. Or has done something right. They have substance abuse or there's, you know, there's even potentially a suicide or an attempted suicide or anxiety or depression. And yet today we don't talk about it. We had Michael Landsberg on our podcast about six months ago, and Michael is one of the most. He was on the ESC on the equivalent of ESPN for Canada for 20 years. And when he came out and he said, I've struggled with depression my whole life and made a call to people to say, if you don't fight for your happiness, who will? And the first step is by starting out and saying, I am struggling. And I think I love that. That's. Those are the kind of forums that you started ending up creating where people felt okay saying, hey, I'm struggling, because if you're aware, then you can start to take action.

Yes, I think it was a really great start. And at the same time, to be honest, it is still Risky, right? Because first I was told you're not going to find volunteers. And I did, actually, I got a massive volunteers who were very motivated to help others by sharing their story. It was really, really beautiful and they absolutely had the impact that they wanted to have. But I think as long as we live in a society or in companies where it's not the standard, there's always a risk involved with that because you never know how people are going to react. So you are making yourself vulnerable. And that's why it's so important when our leaders are doing it as well, because they're basically signaling this is okay. You know, it's okay to share your vulnerabilities and you will not be penalized. Your career will not be penalized because you have the strength to open up and address it. Because if you address it, you can get better. Yeah, if you don't address it, you tend to get worse.

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Yeah, and I think that's the hurdle you have to get past because many companies see well being as a cost instead of seeing it as actually, as you mentioned, actually 10% top line potential. Because it's often or it's very hard to demonstrate the direct link between well being and financial performance. There's a lot of research that shows it, but there's so many variables that play into it that it is at the company level it is difficult to demonstrate. And even if you do demonstrate it and you can demonstrate it and there are methods to get someone to buy into it before you can demonstrate it, that's difficult because then they have to believe in the vision, they have to believe in the number and actually commit. Because without the proper commitment you won't get the financial returns. We know that.

Yeah, no 100%. And I think that's where I think attrition and absenteeism might be a good place to start. Because those are quantifiable numbers. You know, what's your attrition at a place and you know, maybe if you're able to address that, that's a big one. And then at least, Julie, for what we are trying to do at Happiness Squad, you know, our people asset model, Human Potential Losses index is what we've created that literally quantifies people losses on the presenteeism side in particular, but also, you know, has absenteeism attrition in there. But by breaking it out, we're basically saying measure the inputs. And here's the research that shows if you close this gap, what output you get. But I'm with you. You know, call centers is a great place. That's why Adam Grant's study on the role of purpose and the role of the impact was done in call centers. That's why Thrive Global is thinking about call centers. Because we literally measure productivity in seconds. And you know, those are places where are good industries for me to kind of think about? Because we have the people data. If we now integrate the wellness stress data into IT data around psychological safety, how people work, I think sooner rather than later we can show the results. You know, even if you get six 12 months into it. Right. To, to convince people.

The study I'm most proud of, the time when I was at McKinsey was helping a, a financial institution really move from the bottom quartile in organizational health to the top quartile. And they did that with a lot of leadership, commitment and really a cultural turnaround. And the company was so successful they had a huge financial aspiration. And really I didn't believe it at first. Wow. In just one year, this is, this is what's possible. And actually I also focused there on the call center work stream, interestingly enough, and there were huge productivity gains there.

It's a great place to start. So look, I want to switch a little bit and I want to talk about something that you built which was amazing. And I think peer networks have consistently been at the heart of many successful transformations and strategies. Google has a GPS network and you built a 500 plus employee champion network within the business, within, within credit squeeze. Talk to me a little bit about why you did it and how did you go about mobilizing such a large number of people who said yes. In addition to my day job. I am happy to take this on.

Yeah. So we really built a brand around global wellbeing. We really like, gave it a name and a logo and had a big newsletter where we asked for participation. But we also always recruited champions whenever we did events. So I mentioned already the mental health awareness campaign which is inspired by the this is me campaign led by the mayor of London. And when people saw others sharing, they wanted to get involved. So we used those opportunities. We really focused first on finding the senior leaders who were already very passionate about this space or vocal about the space and had them participate in these things and join the wellbeing champion network. Because when you have very senior leaders there other senior leaders think this is also a space. For me, if you have no senior leaders, you then senior leaders tend to think, oh, this is someone for something for all the junior staff. So we actually had a really nice balance between senior leaders all the way to the, to the front line. And we focused really on creating a community. This was really a very passionate, beautiful community and I actually miss it very much. We had monthly meetings, both time zones, so people could actually join twice a month if they really wanted. To I think we're in the kind of EMEA time zone and we really had them share about what's happening on the ground, you know, what are the needs of the teams, what are the challenges, how can we support. We had them discuss, you know, how some of their personal challenges that they were going through. We had them share best practices in terms of initiatives that they've done with their teams that really worked or we had them brainstorm and do sparing. If you know something wasn't working, what can we do? And we really leveraged them to, to support each other as well. Of course I was also, you know, actively participating in this, of course, but we also had then a chat, you know, that we were going for, where people were sharing inspirations for the day. So it was, it was very, very lively and people were very engaged. They started joining in into the initiatives. We were a very, very small team and these wellbeing champions would, would volunteer to support initiatives and really bring them into the teams. So that was really important. We also provided training for them. We trained them on how you take care of yourself first, right in terms of you need to put on your own oxygen mask before you help others. But then also how do you increase well being in your team? How can you drive that as a champion? How can you have a discussion around team norms, you know, that, that improve team dynamics because the team dimension is huge for well being. So we gave them the tools to do that and to have those discussions and we really, we ended up winning with champions who had, you know, like me previously had never heard of the term wellbeing and that's not what they were doing. They were just, they knew that they wanted to make a change. They wanted to make a positive, to have a positive difference. And this was the form to do that, to help people through the uncertainty, through the change. And it really come together.

I love it. So a community that meets at least once a week, opportunity to do twice. Sorry, once a month at least opportunity to do twice a month, depending on time zones. It's both a listening. There's a role of a listening. Tell us what you're hearing, what you need, but also here's the tools to go take and basically deploy, right? Deploy within your networks. It is a place where you could belong because you saw all levels, right? Not just the bottom, frontline or middle, but really holistically, I love those and really living vibrant, supporting each other through many of the learnings. So that's at the heart also of the GPS network. Many of the Transformation programs. We do, whether it's Rewire or Pearl, I think that ends up playing such, such a big role. I think because humans supporting others and going on a journey together is what keeps people going. Right. Because we all oftentimes fall down step, you know, we have our own. And I love that you also made it about not just the organization, but also about them. So what challenges are you facing? Where are you? Right. And so creates probably one of the big drivers for you. Also, given that there were only two of you at the center in the wellbeing team. And so being able to leverage this broad network is almost critical to amplify your impact in the organization.

Yes, absolutely. And as a wellbeing team, I always say we don't need a big wellbeing team because at the end of the day, the wellbeing strategy needs to be lived by the business. We don't even need to call it a wellbeing strategy. Right. It needs to be lived by the people. It's what you feel in your day to day. And that's why I believe so much. It can't be led just by hr. Of course you need resources and we worked a lot with external partners, so we were getting scale through that. If you don't work well with external partners, of course you need a bigger team. So not to get into a discussion of how many resources you need, but my point is, at the end of the day, it cannot be an HR initiative. It needs to be lived by the business. And champions are a way to drive that effort in their organizations. But I would say champions aren't enough. It was very impactful, but we also needed to get to the leaders of those different business units to really commit to it and make sure that what our champions were telling us and voicing, we needed to play that feedback back to the leaders and also to consider it in the initiatives that my team was driving in terms of what resources do people need at this time specifically.

Julie, did you ever get to some kind of well being or a health score by organization, by function, by leader that you could then just say, hey, here's where you are versus others are. And hence the reason to move like those who are in the green or those who are in the red, did you ever get to something like that?

We did that on a qualitative level with our surveys, our data dashboard that I mentioned. It was actually built and it was, my vision was always to use it to provide really targeted, actionable interventions because you would be able to drill down to a size where you can identify where are my risks, where do I need to do something, for example, with a team coaching or line manager coaching or specific resources for a team. We built it, but we never got to implement it because of the acquisition that happened. So we weren't able to do that quantitative benchmark. We were only able to do at the qualitative benchmark level. But we used the qualitative to make leaders aware of challenges in their organization.

But it was on your roadmap, and I think that's an important one. Right. Like friends, if we really buy in to flourishing as a strategy to unlock higher returns, then we need to be rigorous about measuring the state of our human assets, just in a rigorous way as we measure the state of our physical assets. Right. If you ask your teams for performance and gap to targets, but you don't ask for the same conversation on health, on where we are and what's the gap to where we need to go and what gains are we making then? It doesn't matter how much you spend on well being or wellness. You're just doing a check the box exercise. You're just pursuing it as a benefit. And frankly, many of those are not gonna go anywhere. But if you put the same focus, right, Julie, similar to the dashboard that you were starting to put together, and we really start to look at it, you don't have to treat it as perfect, but start to use it as an indicator, then you start to actually move the needle and then you really start to make a difference. On that note, what were some other opportunities that you saw, Julie, personally, and then I wanna talk a little bit about the broader ecosystem of companies that are doing this work. What were some things that you wish you had done differently or sooner from your time there?

I think the biggest one really was this dashboard and making it actionable. I saw a lot of potential in that. And when we stopped the effort when we were acquired, and I do wonder if maybe we could have used it for just a few months and even those few months could have, could have made a difference for some teams. So that's, that's one thing. And the second thing is that I learned later is focusing on where I got a yes instead of wasting energy on where I got a no. Because often the no would turn into a yes over time.

Yeah. So very quickly, rather than try. And it also goes to this notion of play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Right. So this notion of let's find those who are a yes and, and let's go all in on them rather than Try and convince a large mass. Because once people who say yes, who are all in, start to see outsized results, everybody else will start to notice of, hey, there is something different going on. I want that too. But otherwise, yeah, it is super, super hard to get people who are not interested, who are closed, who are kind of so focused on another way for whatever reason. Right. Like I have lots of compassion for those. You're not going to convince them. You know, 500 years ago they were half the world that was convinced Earth was flat. You can show them whatever you want. You weren't going to convince them to get on a ship because they were afraid of falling off the edge of the earth. Today, only 1% of people believe Earth is flat. Everybody else is at least aligned that Earth is round. I think we'll get there on this flourishing and well being journey, I'm convinced in the next 20 to 30 years. But meanwhile, we have to go into this thinking that 90% of the people, even though we can give them data as rigorous as the data that shows Earth is round, as rigorous as shows global warming is real, are going to put their head in the sand and say yeah, but. And ask 15 questions. So doubling down on those who believe and really helping them win, I think is the biggest impact we can have on the world.

Yes. And it's about people convincing people. It's also about specific interventions that I wanted to run. So sometimes the organization just wasn't ready for a huge, big commitment, huge, big project. So start small, show it works and then the bigger commitment will come.

Yeah, I love it. So for others that might be starting a similar journey as a well being, you know, as a wellbeing leader or a chief wellness officer or a chief happiness officer, now that you've gone, you've done work in consulting and you've gone and actually ran a program like this for two and a half years, what advice would you give them, Julie?

I would say start with diagnosing what the drivers are in your organization and which ones will have the biggest impact on employee well being. Then start with the low hanging fruits that are free or cheap to implement and you can show success with them first and then really make your case to tackle the bigger buckets, which is what I mentioned before, then I'd say secondly, leverage the great things that are already happening. So showcase initiatives, showcase initiatives that are already making a positive difference somewhere in the organization. Scale them and build openness and momentum for more initiatives to be taken. And thirdly, get leadership, buy in, get them to role model It's a start with the C suite and the first two layers below and then continue to the middle management. You really need to bring, bring the middle management along. And if you're finding resistance, you know, start with the business leaders who are already role models, who already get it and leverage them as champions to bring the rest on board.

Yeah, I love that. So start with the data to choose something that'll work for that organization, give them a win. And I think most leaders today are struggling with targets that are higher, conditions that are harder, and people who are exhausted, stressed, disengaged. So giving for each business leader a win where we can use people to drive one of the things they care about, I think can be a good place to start. Maybe it shows up in attrition, maybe it is showing up in absenteeism. A lot of people are leaving or are taking sick leaves. And of course role modeling, as you said, Julie, is such a big deal. You know, I'm curious about this from a perspective from you. As I've looked at this and as I look at the data from the McKinsey Health Institute around how big of an impact the job team level interventions play on the overall well being and burnout. You know, you mentioned starting with the C suite. Why not actually really focus the whole strategy around activating the middle? Because it's the middle that touches the most number of people. It's the middle that affects the wellbeing of every person who's working for them more than the therapist ever will. So I'm curious about your take on really thinking and framing the whole opportunity as a middle leader. Unlock, you know, just really unfreeze that middle and give them the skills and the resources to get the most out of the leaders of the people that they're leading.

I agree that's essential. You need to get the middle management. I'm not convinced that only focusing on the middle management will get you there. I think you need to start with the top first because a middle management is always going to be in a very difficult situation by design. They're trying to manage upwards and they're trying to manage dial supports. They're typically experiencing quite a lot of pressure, stress and they're trying to make everyone happy.

Right?

And often making the team happy isn't the same thing as making your boss happy or the senior management happy. So and the research you just mentioned about managers having a greater impact on an employee than a therapist or even the same as their romantic partner, that's going to be true for the middle managers. As well. So if their manager is, you know, exhibiting a lot of toxic behaviors, is not supportive, doesn't care about their well being and is putting in excessive, unrealistic demands on this person, then they're not going to, it's going to be very, very difficult for them to be a supportive leader to their team and to manage to channel all of that stress. So I think that role modeling needs to go from the entire organization. And when I talk to teams I often got, you know, very motivated middle managers who wanted to work with their teams to improve the team well being. And in those conversations it was all we always said, yeah, but there's only so much we can do because the C suite or because the layer above or the layer above and the layer above and I worked with them to realize how much impact they can actually have within a team. So it's very important. The circle of influence is actually very, very important. But it's true, you do reach a certain limit when you can't make decisions on structural or process things that are influencing employee wellbeing at scale. So for me the C suite isn't very important. Even just that signaling effect. Recently a CEO, he implemented, he, for example, he decided the gym would be closed during working hours because he didn't want people to be working at that time. It was one person decided that, you know, we're going to start tracking times where people come in and out of the building and we're going to implement this many days in the office. And just that was, was as far as I've heard it was a, it was kind of a one person decision. And if a CEO sends that signal of it's not okay to be at the gym for 30 minutes during working hours, even though maybe you're working 14 hour days in, they signal, you know, you need to be at the office to be productive and we're going to make, we're going to, that's very, very powerful. So that's why I think it needs to be the entire management and not just the middle management.

Maybe the answer is the middle path, which is find a C suite leader who really believes it but then go all the way through with their help. Get the, you know, and obviously as you think about the diagnostic, highlight the organizational factors that drive wellbeing but then really double down on the middle managers as a way to upskill them, make them more resilient. Right? Teach them the skills to be more adaptable and resilient. You have the senior level buy ins in that function in that group, but Then really go all the way through, give them the skills so they can change the work rather than just give people mental health apps. Because it's the work and it's the job design that's driving so much of the impact, especially for organizations like that. So look, we are almost at the end of the hour of our time together. I would love to know. Look, you can't do any of this work out there unless you learn a model to take care of yourself. You can't pour from an empty cup. So Julie, I'm curious, what are some of your personal practices that have become foundational to your wellbeing that allows you to make sure that you can be at your best?

Yeah. Obviously very important that we start with ourselves. And I would say that to any CEO as well. Right. Start with yourself and focus on your health and you'll have a very positive impact on the rest of the organization. For myself, I prioritize sleep. We have family naps on the weekends. We, we go to the gym together and then we take a fa family nap in the afternoon. I focus on a balanced diet. I had to learn the hard way early on in my career that stress can really negatively impact, you know, our digestive system and our energy. So I did some nutrition coaching and that really, really helped me improve my energy levels. I take daily walks or runs kind of in the woods or in nature by the lake. I love Zumba. It gives me so much positive energy. I love just laughing and goofing around with my family, like chasing each other around the apartment and then those kind of like the fundamentals and then I do some maintenance. So I'm a firm believer in coaching. So I am also a coach. So I'm a bit biased there, but I became a coach because it really helps to address some of the unhealthy, ingrained mindsets and just continue that personal development journey. And when I have something worrying me, that's the third category I focus on journaling or I get help with it as well to, to really process when something is, is on my mind and, and it just kind of won't let go.

Yeah, a very nice set of physical, mental, spiritual practices. Right. That have become a core foundation for you. Amazing. Well, listen, thank you for spending this time with us. I've loved sharing your story from the trenches of taking a big company, building a strategy and really activating it. Right, friends, it is possible, it is possible. You get the impacts and so hopefully this story inspires you to start your well being journey. But a journey that is really pursuing well being as a strategy that is not an HR initiative, that is not a benefit but fundamentally a strategy to get your people, your teams, your organizations operating at their best and truly making flourishing a competitive edge for you. Thank you for listening and we look forward to having you again on the next episode.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Thank you Julie. That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning. Please consider leaving us review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week. Sam.