#1 Way to SUPERCHARGE Glutathione Absorption (Plus Crazy Benefits) With Dr. Nayan Patel

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

Cysteine is very scarce in our diet, and it's hard to get into a diet. So, if you have cysteine-rich foods like whey proteins, avocados, you know, sulfur-containing products, intrinsically, your body can absorb the cysteine and make glutathione out of it. One thing we have a lot in your brain is glutamine. I tell people to stay away from glutamine as much as possible.

Interesting. If someone's listening in and they hear that and they're concerned that they could potentially be getting too much glutamine and not know about it, what would be some ways that people would be getting too much glutamine? Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more.

Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show.

Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this. Well, you've probably heard of glutathione before, and you might even be bored by glutathione because it seems like everybody's talking about it, and the health and biohacking podcast sector is one giant echo chamber of glutathione. So, when I got this book, "The Glutathione Revolution," in the mail, written by today's guest, Dr. Nayan Patel, I almost didn't read it. I was like, "All right, here we go. The body's master antioxidant, blah, blah, blah." But this book turned out to be different. The delivery mechanisms described and some of the myths and truths about glutathione wound up really informing me a lot more about this particular antioxidant than I ever really knew about. So, I had to get this guy in the show. I actually briefly had a chance to meet him at the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine conference. In Vegas, and he's a fantastic guy. He's a pharmacist. He's a real thought leader in the industry. And he's been working with physicians since 1999 to custom-develop medications for their clients and develop patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. He works with a lot of celebrities, CEOs, and even physicians turn to Dr. Patel for advice, particularly because of his wide range of knowledge on both biochemistry and anti-aging science. And this book, "The Glutathione Revolution," is one that I highly recommend. And I also recommend you take a look at his company, Auro Wellness, A-U-R-O Wellness, where he's done over a decade of research and pretty rigorous testing to figure out how to make glutathione more bioavailable, which we're going to talk about in today's show. So, Dr. Patel, welcome.

I'm so glad to be here today, Ben. Thank you for having me today.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you have a background in pharmacy, so we know that you like to throw a pill at everything pharmaceutical. I'm curious where glutathione fit into the picture for you and how you came to be aware of it in the pharmaceutical industry.

Absolutely. So, as you just said, I'm a pharmacist, and being surrounded with so many pills not doing anything for you is frustrating, right? As a pharmacist, you just keep on dispensing pills, but it really did not do anything for my patients other than just maintain the problem. It never got rid of any problem, it just maintained the problem. So, it was not exciting to me at all. And, early on in my career when I was first hired to work on some liposome technology back in 1999. We made some glutathione liposomal products at that time.

And— And by the way, did you say liposomal?

Liposomals, yes. Okay.

What exactly is liposomal? Just in case people haven't heard that phrase before.

Absolutely. So, liposome technology is a— it's an older technology where they do is they take a molecule and they cover up with some layers so that the body doesn't break it down fast enough. And so, has a chance to absorb it internally without it getting broken down. And so, it's a great technology for a lot of molecules, but unfortunately, was not the right technology for glutathione for me because even though I made the product, I was not getting the results that I was promised with this technology. So, you know, as you said, You just shelf it because it's just because of me-too product. Not interested. Yeah.

That's interesting with liposomal because, I mean, you see a lot of liposomal glutathione products out there. So, when you say you weren't noticing results, do you run specific tests or labs to see if you're getting the results you want?

So, in a pharmacy setting, back in the early 2000s and late 1990s, we were not doing a lot of test results. What we are doing was we are just using in clinical settings for my patients, and I'm— we're looking for outcomes. And if I don't see the outcomes in a known timeframe, then it basically becomes a mute product for us. Because, you know, even back then, 25 years ago, we were still in a very fast-paced environment where people want to get results like they don't want to wait for 6 months to a year to get results. They want results faster than that. And so, with a product that promises this superior way to deliver glutathione, I was expecting results to be at a much faster pace, and I did not get that.

And when you say results, what kind of things would you normally expect, or at least be trying to expect, when you're prescribing glutathione?

So, you know, glutathione, it really affects your liver. So, it's the highest amount is produced in the liver. So, anything to do with liver metabolism, anything to do with getting rid of liver toxicities is what we were measuring. So, what we wanted to measure was measure triglyceride levels, measure your sugar levels and your A1C and see if that was dropping. We wanted to see your oxidative stress markers and see if that was dropping, you know, the MDA levels. And making sure that By doing so, people feel more energetic. Their post-workout recovery is much faster. If they cannot walk, they started to walk much better and easier. So, we are looking for those types of results at a very early on and not so much into getting rid of the disease itself, but just start to see if the body was able to move and function at a at a much higher pace.

If you were doing blood tests to see how you responded to glutathione, would you also look at liver enzymes or oxidative stress markers?

Yes, of course. So, liver enzymes are, you know, by the time you— the liver enzymes starts rising, your liver is really, really taxed, right? Liver is one of those organs that completely regenerates itself within a very short amount of time if you have the right nutrients. And for the liver to have liver enzymes rising, it has to be insulted in a lot of different ways. So, yes, you can measure liver enzymes and see that if the liver enzymes are rising, that means the glutathione levels are completely depleted for sure.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. Now, you also mentioned hemoglobin A1C, that kind of 3-month snapshot of blood sugar levels, but also blood glucose. If someone weren't doing lab tests, is the response to glutathione, if it is a good glutathione, we'll talk about delivery mechanisms later on, that might be superior to liposomal, but is it such an acute response that like, you know, as you can see here, I'm wearing a CGM, continuous glucose monitor. Would I be able to see, like, if I were to use glutathione, say, prior to a meal or during the day, a pretty immediate response in blood glucose stabilization?

Absolutely. So, CGM is a game changer. And as you can see, even the healthy people are operating CGMs right now because they're trying to optimize in-zone, out-of-zone sugar levels, right, at all times. And so, if you're diabetic, then you are pretty much, even though your sugar levels could be normal, like A1C, which is a 3-month snapshot, could be normal, But even those diabetic patients that are normal, they are most of the time they're out of zone because they're eating foods. And by the time it comes back down, it's not coming back down right away. The sugar levels are not coming back down right away. So, in zone versus out of zone, most of the diabetics are out of zone all the time even though the 3-month snapshot is normal. So, the idea behind that is, can we get people in the zone majority of the time, even if they're diabetic or non-diabetic. And so, the glutathione really helps reduce oxidative stress markers so that way the body can actually get rid of the sugars at a much faster pace. And so, the fluctuations are not that much. And I'm sure if you are measuring your levels all the time, you can see how much you're in and out of the zone all the time.

Do you know the mechanism of action by which glutathione would actually cause blood glucose stabilization?

No, I don't. I do not know the exact mechanism for the sugar stabilizations. I do know part of the functions is working on triglycerides and working via the liver. But I do not know exactly how it's becoming insulin— how is it helping the insulin find the sugar molecules to reduce the sugar levels down fast enough. I do not know that part.

Yeah, that's interesting. I might dig into that later on. So, back to your story. You weren't finding that the liposomal glutathione was having the effect that you would have desired from glutathione.

That's right. So, I was not getting the results I was looking for in liposome. So, I started making IV, intravenous form of glutathione. So, I made that for about 20 years, IV forms of glutathione. And we were one of the largest producer in United States of the intravenous form. And I went on a circuit to basically train physicians on all sorts of IV therapies and helping them start the whole sort of the IV hydration movement in United States.

Are there any downsides to IV glutathione? And actually, the reason I asked that is I think it was when I interviewed Dr. Ben Lynch. He was describing how glutathione is an antioxidant. After it donates an electron could become a pro-oxidant. And that in some people, especially people with certain genetic factors who don't degrade it properly, you could actually have almost like a paradoxical inflammatory or pro-oxidation effect if you're doing a large bolus of glutathione all at once.

So, um, Yes and no. Yes and no. So, the part of the glutathione when it donates the electron, it becomes a GS molecule. The two GS molecule comes together and make some— becomes a GSSG molecule, which is an oxidized form of glutathione. Two glutathiones coming together and two sort of the pro-oxidants, so to speak, comes together and becomes inert once again. And that, that actually you can measure in your bloodstream, the GSSG molecule all the time. So, the pro-oxidant effect is very short-lived, but— and it will combine together and becomes a stable, much stable molecule in your body. And given the right nutrients and energy, this molecule can regenerate itself and make glutathione again. So, yes, it is a pro-oxidant, but that part is very short-lived. It becomes an inert molecule again one more time. So, having that reservoir, so to speak, of GSSG molecule in your body is actually good because then your body can regenerate them with the help of vitamin C, and sunlight, and vitamin E, and other molecules to make into glutathione again.

Ben Greenfield: Okay, that makes sense. So, there's a recycling pathway, I suppose, somewhat similar to how, like, you know, some people will vilify lactic acid due to excess metabolic acidosis, but a lot of it gets recycled into glucose in the Cori cycle, and that's available for burning once again. So, it's not like lactic acid is bad. I suppose probably, I'm guessing the reason Dr. Ben Lynch said that when I interviewed him was he's a genetics guy, and I'm guessing it's because some people might genetically have inferior recycling processes. I suppose that would probably be the case.

And that could be true. And if people have the GSTM1, GSTM2 gene SNPs based on where they are in the body, may have some issues with conjugation of the glutathione and elimination of the glutathione itself. So, yeah, there are some issues out there right now. I've not come across any that has not been an issue with with using glutathione at all though.

Yeah. He has a good test. It's called StrateGene. It tests for different dirty gene pathways, including some of those glutathione recycling pathways. So, I suppose people could look into that if they wanted to kind of dig into the glutathione genetics just a little bit more. But back to the IV glutathione. So, you're doing IVs and training practitioners in intravenous glutathione administration. And then, where'd you move on to after that?

Well, the IV glutathione, very early on, we knew that the response rate was very short. It only stays in the body for about 14, 15 minutes. And so—

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So, the idea behind IV therapies was short-lived. It was— I mean, we had people using intravenous glutathione for hangovers all the time. Very early on, we were treating some doctors in Vegas back in the early 2000s. And, These guys were actually giving out ibogaine to everybody. Yeah.

But you stayed busy in Vegas.

Yeah. But again, it was short-lived, right? Did not get the results. And yeah, I was not making products for hangover cure or something to do with hangovers. I was more interested in the other side of the benefits of metabolic disorders, and I was not getting that with the intravenous form of glutathione. So, right away, I recruited my colleague at the USC Keck School of Medicine. I said, "Hey, can you please come and join me? I need to work on a project. I'm by myself over here. I need help." And so, I recruited him. He was in a research department at the USC working on proteins and peptides at that back for about 25+ years. So, he was very knowledgeable in that things that I needed to work on this tripeptide. The glutathione is a tripeptide. I want to work on this molecule. To get it stabilized for me. Recruit back him in my office. Came— it took me about 2.5 years to convince him to join me. And, we started to work on glutathione back in the early 2000s. And, by 2007, we had a stable molecule in my hand, which was a liquid form of glutathione. And, I tried to figure out, do I do this orally, topically? Do I make into a suppository? Do I make into freeze-dried capsules? I was trying to figure out how to make this thing work for my patients. And apparently, it turned out to be a topical application because the science led us to the topical route of application. And, at that time, I decided, I said, "You know what? I should shut down my IV business because, you know, this is going to be working just fine." And, and people are going to be okay.

Now, when you say that you figured out a way to make it stable, what's that mean exactly? Like, the difference between unstable and stable glutathione?

So, glutathione is highly unstable because it's 3-part molecule: glutamine, glycine, and cysteine. Cysteine has a sulfur group, which is highly unstable. And what happens is that, glutathione, if it gives up its electron to the atmosphere to neutralize oxygen species, it becomes completely just— it breaks it down and you're done with it. And so, the key was, can I put a cap on the cysteine molecule somehow that it doesn't get oxidized right away in the water? Because water is H2O. It's one part oxygen there. So, even in a water-based system, it will break down immediately. So, my goal was to put a chemical cap on it somehow so it doesn't get broken down in the water or by the environment or anything. So, that was my first technology that then I deliver where I put a chemical cap on the cysteine molecule. So, you can smell the sulfur, you can smell everything, you can taste it, but it doesn't get broken down immediately.

Yeah. That's why I think a lot of people find glutathione to have almost a little bit of a fart-like essence to it, especially, you know, when you find it in sprays or squirt bottles or things like that. Is it the sulfurous component of the cysteine that's contributing to that?

That's exactly right. It's the thiol group in the cysteine that contributes to the sulfur smell.

Man, you'd really make bank if you could figure out how to make an odor-free version of glutathione, huh?

So, '07, 2007 is when we first discovered it. And everybody told me that, "Oh, oh, this is not going to work. It smells like sulfur." Right? And the base was very sticky. So, it's sticky and it's sulfury. I said, "Oh my God, nobody's ever going to use this product ever." And so, it took me, I don't know, 13-plus years to keep on modifying and trying and trying to figure out what to do with this order. And the formula I had in 2007 and the formula I released to the open public in 2020 is identical. I couldn't even change one thing.

Oh, wow. So, you really didn't need to change anything in the product for what, 7 years?

No. It's like 2007 to 2020, it was 13 years plus.

Oh, 13 years.

Yeah. 13 years. And, I could not change even one thing. You know, when the molecule is so simple and comes everything together, it's like a perfect mash. When it happens that, there's nothing else you can add on to it or kind of modify it to get rid of the odor and the stickiness. And, if I did that part, it just breaks the molecule apart. And so, it did not work.

Yeah. I want to come back to the topical administration here in a little bit, but you mentioned cysteine, glutamine, and you said glycine, right?

Glycine, yes.

As the 3 precursors. So, based on that, what would be some ways that you could use dietary factors or dietary combinations to increase your dietary building blocks of glutathione?

So, if it's one thing that you can do, is to eat anything that has high cysteine. Cysteine is very scarce in our diet and it's hard to get into a diet. So, if you have cysteine-rich foods like whey proteins, avocados, you know, sulfur-containing products, those are going to be the best bet to actually intrinsically your body can absorb the cysteine and make glutathione out of it. One thing we have a lot in your brain is glutamine. So, having glutamine is actually not a good idea a whole lot, especially if you have early onset dementia or any kind of neurological disorders. I tell people to stay away from glutamine as much as possible. But cysteine is by far the best. There are some products out in the market that had glycine and cysteine as a combination products too. And I'm okay with that as well. What I'm not okay with is taking glutamine abundantly. Glutamine is good for your gut and it's okay for that, but taking too much glutamine is actually not helpful to produce glutathione in your body.

Interesting. If someone's listening in and they hear that and they're concerned that they could potentially be getting too much glutamine and not know about it, what would be some ways that people would be getting too much glutamine?

So, the glutamines are coming from mostly from the supplementation. There, it is not coming from the diet. Also, keep in mind that one of the byproducts in your brain metabolism for— because your brain consumes 20% of the oxygen that we breathe in every single day. Even though the brain is only 2% of the— by body weight, it's only 2%, yet it consumes 20% of the oxygens coming into a body. And one of the byproducts in that process of oxidation in our brain is also glutamine. And so, we are not there yet to measure the brain levels of glutamine at this point. There are some magnetic resonance spectrometer, MRI or MRS, that they're using to measure the brain levels of glutathione and glutamines and things like that. But we're not there yet as a blood test to figure that portion out.

Okay. Do you know how much glutamine would be too much? And the reason I ask this is because in a lot of gut healing, I suppose, protocols, you see a recommendation for taking like around up to 5 grams of glutamine with breakfast, lunch, and dinner for people who get bloating, gastric distress, who have leaky gut issues, et cetera. So, that's right there, 15 grams a day. You know, people use like a powdered glutamine in a drink or something like that. Do you think that would be too much?

It could be. It could be if you don't have a leaky gut problem. If you have leaky gut issues, absolutely, right? Personally, I take it myself, glutamine, when I have issues with my gut. And I know when I'm getting bloated a little bit, I know I've not been eating healthy. If I'm at conferences, around the world traveling, my gut gets destroyed all the time. And so, I do take glutamine for myself as well. So, keep in mind, glutamine, it's a great product for leaky gut issues. And very little of that glutamine gets reabsorbed into and crosses the blood-brain barrier. So, as long as it stays in the gut and the body uses it up, you have no issues whatsoever. Now, the correlation between taking glutamine and crossing the blood-brain barrier, that's the connection we have not made yet. Again, that's the research for 2024 that I'm working on personally myself. Because once I found out that the glutamine is actually a problem for Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that, I am on a quest to try to figure out how do I get the glutamine out of the brain if that's necessary, or bind it with something so that makes a different molecule so that way we can effectively reduce the chance of those diseases in our brain.

Yeah. I'm curious if there'd be like qualitative symptoms of excess glutamine intake. I don't know if it would be brain fog or fuzzy thinking or something like that.

You know what? No. I've not seen brain fog with high dose of glutamine. I've not seen that part. So, the brain fog is coming from something else.

Okay. Okay. Got it. So, I suppose just to play it safe, if people were doing something like 3 times a day of 5 grams of glutamine dosing for something like leaky gut, they should not consider that a smart daily supplement protocol for life. Like, it would be used to get past gut issues and then you maybe want to dial back the glutamine intake.

That's right. Dial back to maybe once a day.

Okay. All right.

Got it.

And then, back to cysteine. You mentioned whey protein, and I've heard that a lot of sulfurous compounds, cruciferous vegetables, you know, broccoli sprouts, Brussels sprouts, or even eggs, garlic, a lot of these stinky sulfurous foods would be good choices for natural ways from the diet to support glutathione production. Is that correct?

Absolutely. And by the way, FDA has only approved N-acetylcysteine as a drug to improve glutathione levels. Oh, yeah.

That's the NAC that supposedly got outlawed or something.

Yeah. It's not outlawed. What it is is that FDA hasn't approved as a drug NAC. So, anybody who sells NAC off the counter and tried to make a claim, that's the one that have been outlawed. If you sell NAC without making any claims whatsoever, then they're allowed to sell it.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Because for the longest time, you'd see, you know, if you're reading a book, reading an article about detoxification or liver health, you'd see a lot of people say, "Well, take glutathione." Or, and I'd often see this, "For a more powerful option, take N-acetylcysteine or NAC." And in those cases, that's a claim that was being made that resulted in NAC being a little bit more tightly regulated.

That's— the regulation came in because they're making claim about hangovers, they're making claim about—

Yeah. Saw a lot of those.

Yeah. And so, when you make those claims, that's when the FDA says, "No, no, no. For those claims, these are FDA-approved product already available, so you can't sell this product for that claim." Okay.

I have another question before we get back to topical glutathione. I've noticed In the supplement industry, a lot of people are selling glutathione and combining it with antioxidants like PQQ or CoQ10. I mean, I know of at least 3 different companies that have that stack; glutathione with PQQ and CoQ10. Do you know why they'd be combining those?

So, glutathione is considered the master antioxidant is because that what happens is that it will take the energy from CoQ10 and PQQ or vitamin E or vitamin C or whatever, Right? All this, it'll take the energy back from them and keep on regenerating itself. Because GSH molecule, glutathione, when it gets oxidized becomes GSSG molecule, it'll take the energy from other components and make GSH again.

Right? Okay. Got it. So, we're coming full circle to those recycling pathways, which is why people would be producing products like that.

That's right. CoQ10 and PQQ have other benefits in the mitochondria, and I'm assuming that they are just stacking them up. But the key is, again, can we get the CoQ10 in the mitochondria where it's produced? Can we get the PQQ in the brain cells where it's needed the most? And there, to me, that has not been proven yet. Okay. And so, again, that's my 2025 research. Next year, we should be having another thing I'm working on how to get CoQ10 intracellularly now. And I'm already working on that right now as we speak.

Okay, cool. Plenty of homework to do. So, the topical, the transdermal, are you saying that what you would do is actually— and I tried that Oro stuff that you sent me. It's kind of like a spray. You would just apply that over a certain area of the body?

Yes. So, basically, we just apply any part of the body, the arms, the bellies, the face, the neck, it doesn't matter. We tend to put on a non-hairy area because the sticky component to it, it's very tacky. And so, if you apply on your hair, the hair gets stuck to your skin, it just becomes uncomfortable. It doesn't change the absorption of the product, it just changes how your body feels with it. So, I normally shave my arms. I just shave my arms and just put it in my arms, it's just easier for me. That's what I do every day.

Now, let's say I had a couple glasses of wine or something else that I feel would stress the liver. Is there anything to the notion of applying the topical glutathione directly over a specific organ? Like, in this case, you know, upper right abdomen or something like that?

I don't think so because it is not the proximity of where it applies it. Of course, if you have a knee pain and if you apply your knees, may have a better results for the pain. But when you're looking for systemic absorption of this molecule, doesn't matter where you apply it, everything, the blood rush to the liver first anyways. So, doesn't matter where you apply it, it's going to get to the liver at the first things. Now, yes, when I drink alcohol, if I have a glass of red wine or a couple of glass of red wine, I need a lot more glutathione and I need a large surface area. So, yes, I would apply to my abdomen because larger surface area. And so, that's what I would apply also, but doesn't have to be there.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. But it's more like a hairless area. And I heard this about transdermal applications, an area with higher levels of capillarization as well as, but like the inside of the thighs if those happen to be hairless for you or the inside of the arms or typically would be an area of the body that's more sensitive that would have more capillaries and nerve endings. Is there something to that idea?

So, the capillaries, yes. Nerve endings, maybe not. But people that apply on the wrist is because the skin is very thin over here. There's no fat over here. So, all the topical preparations, they go through the fat layer, through lipid layers to get inside your body. With this technology, it doesn't need— doesn't do that. It cuts through everything. It doesn't go through the fat layers at all. It goes— it just gets between the cell lines. And goes in between those lines. So, it doesn't really matter. You can apply it on the high fatty area or low fatty area. Doesn't really matter. Get the same absorption.

So, if you got big old thunder thighs and, you know, a little bit extra mass down there, you can still apply it on the thighs and you get absorption.

Well, if they have that, they need your help.

That's true. That's what I'm here for. So, in terms of the molecule that you've developed, When I was— it was either in your book or on your website, I saw this word Glutaril. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that properly. Is that just like the form of glutathione that you've made with this modification of the cysteine?

No. Glutaril is just the name of the product. Okay. It's just the name of the product. It's on my website. When I released the book, I didn't have any product in mind. I had a product that I was working on, but I did not release the product until the book was released anyways. So, the name of the product is on my website, but I just want to give us— you know, I'm a pharmacist, so I know that word, glutaryl, is an enzyme. It's a chemical. Let's just name it Glutaril. And half the world does not even know what Glutaril is anyway, so it doesn't really matter. So, it's just the name of the product, but the technology is different. It's a two-part technology that we have developed. To sequester the cysteine molecules that doesn't need to oxidize, and then get this tripeptide and kind of twist it up a little bit so it becomes— the molecule becomes small enough so it get through the skin.

Yeah. Because most peptides aren't absorbable transdermally. There's like GHK copper peptide. People use it for hair growth. I think it's less than 50 Daltons or so, one of the units used to size peptides, and that's absorbable. But what you're saying is this is a 3-peptide bond and you just basically reconfigured it to make it take up smaller space so that it gets absorbed through the skin.

That's right. So, we cannot— like, we cannot just squeeze it down. You just cannot squeeze it down because otherwise, it's not a protein, but it's a peptide. It's just— you just So, what you got to do is you got to twist it. You know, twist a little bit so that it doesn't change the polarity of the molecule because the two opposite ends you cannot touch. So, if you twist it up a little bit, then it's basically become a small— it occupies smaller space, so it gets to your skin much better.

Ben Greenfield: All right. This might be really boring for people, but the geek in me just has to ask, how do you actually twist a peptide? Like, what goes on in a— laboratory or a biochemical setting to pull that off?

So, it is a chemical setting that we had to work on. We took a cone-shaped molecule and we put on the top and we spit it out. And when it comes down, it just twisted out.

And if it's in that configuration, let's say I have a bottle of it and it gets exposed to, I don't know, say like heat, or I notice a very dark bottle that you have these things in, or light, would that cause some kind of an unfolding mechanism or degrade the product somehow?

No. What it does is that the molecule is kind of stacked inside. So, the upper layer may get oxidized a little bit, but the remainder of the molecule stays intact. But as soon as it gets inside your body, the way it does is that that dextrin molecule that we are using, it will bind to some of your cells, and then it will just dump inside your cells inside it right away. And so, I did not know about that part of the piece of the technology until about 3, 4 years ago when we start doing some studies at the local universities over here. That's when we found out that, hey, the way the gluta was actually getting delivered into the cell was not just by passive diffusion or just by getting inside your body because it's still intact. It was that whole cone-shaped molecule was getting— where it was getting touched to a cell and basically just dumping inside the cell.

Okay, got it. So, do you need to keep the product refrigerated at all?

No, you don't have to. But the thing is, in my lab, I keep everything refrigerated to begin with. And in my lab, I have products for over 5 years that is still stable after 5 years if I keep it refrigerated. So, refrigeration, it just increases stability, but even without refrigeration, it's still good for about at least a year and a half to 2 years almost.

Oh, yeah. You'd easily go through a bottle in that period of time. What's the difference between the Plus and the regular version?

So, the regular version is what we use for 13+ years. I had the Plus version, which is a much stronger— it's just a concentration. The regular version, The Plus is about 1.75 times stronger than the regular version. And, of course, first, I used the Plus version and I saw that, "Oh my God, it's just too much for glutathione for everybody else. They don't need this much glutathione." And so, that's when I kept my IV business going because I had to do more research. And, I created the regular version, which is I did all my trials and all my studies on that one. And so, the Plus version was actually released in 2021 because we had a couple of athletes and celebrities. They were asking us, "Hey, I need more glutathione. I need more glutathione." And I keep on pushing them, "No, no, you don't need more glutathione. I'm telling you, treat it like a medicine. You only take what your body can handle it, right? You don't need more than that." But then, during the COVID We had a couple of cases where the need for glutathione was tremendous, was a lot. And, when that happened, we gave the Plus version to a couple of people. It really helped them out. And, of course, they're very well-known celebrities. And so, all of a sudden, they took the products and everybody wants the Plus version. So, in reality, the Plus when we first released the Plus. Now, we have uses for the Plus. But until that time, we were only studying the regular version for all the clinical trials that we did.

Tell me about the trials.

So, we did one human trial that was published. It was done at Western University School of Medicine. And we just wanted to— so, we want to reciprocate the study that I did 12 years ago. That, hey, when you apply glutathione topically, that it gets inside your blood, it gets inside your red blood cells, wherever it's supposed to be. And I just want to make sure that I can prove it with a human trial. So, we took 30 subjects and we just applied for 3 days. We just applied twice a day and we just took levels of the body, of the blood and see where the glutathione levels were going. But the researcher went to the IRB, The IRB goes, "Well, if you're just doing that, it's a moot point. I want you to start looking for some markers." I say, "It's just a 3-day trial. 3-day trials, we might not see a whole lot of things in there." I said, "But I want you to start studying that as well." So, in 3 days, what we saw was, yes, the glutathione levels was increased right away. Within 4 hours of application, right? We applied the one application, In 4 hours, they saw reduction of the MDA, the oxidative stress markers in your blood. That went down within 4 hours of applying glutathione. That was like, woof, a game changer, right? And then, what the researcher did was they took the— they applied the glutathione, they drew the blood, and they infected the blood in the test tube with Mycobacterium infection. As of right now, there is no cure for Mycobacterium infections, right? Aviums and tuberculosis and all those things. There's nothing for. There's no drug for that. The only thing we can do is build up our own immune system to deal with these diseases, with this infection. So, they took the test tubes, injected the blood, and then they monitored the blood with the glutathione and without the glutathione patients. What they saw was after 1 hour of applying, they saw reduction in the Mycobacterium dose. In the test tube. Wow. And so, that triggered another slew of problems. Okay, wait a second. That went down. They started measuring the IL-2, the IL-12, interferon gamma, TNF alpha. These are all the cytokines that are shown to improve your immune system. So, they started measuring those out and they saw a rise of all those within 3 days. So, in 3 days, they saw the absorption was there. They saw the reduction of the oxidative stress marker. They saw reduction in the Mycobacterium load and improvement in the immune system to a point that it helped have a positive impact on the infection.

Ben Greenfield: Wow. So, would you say— you mentioned the acute response to something like viral infection and managing the inflammatory markers in response to that. Or a bacterial infection. You briefly mentioned, of course, as, you know, nobody would be surprised by the acute effects on something like a hangover or another liver assailant, you know, that drinking too much alcohol and the benefits of using it for that. Is there anything else that you found this to be particularly beneficial for, particularly from an acute standpoint? You know, I've been in XYZ situation and I need rapidly absorbable glutathione right away.

So, we have done— again, this has been used with the help of oncologist. So, we have a couple of doctors that themselves develop a stage 4 liver cancer, and they were prescribed heavy dose of chemotherapy. And those chemotherapy will, by far, will put them into neuropathy. So, it's like if the cancer doesn't kill you, chemotherapy will kill you, right? And they were able to use the glutathione immediately to get rid of the neuropathy they were getting from cisplatin chemotherapy agent.

Oh, interesting. So, they use it as an adjunct to chemotherapy.

Yeah.

But what about— would you think it would have any effects on cancer itself?

I don't think so. It may help with the immune system response. But is the immune system enough, if the macrophage is enough to get out the cancer cells? It's very doubtful. It's very doubtful. We work with a lot of oncologists that they've been using glutathione as an adjunct therapy. I don't think so they're using them as a solo therapy for cancer itself.

Ben Greenfield: Okay, got it. Now, the studies that you did, Do you have any idea of how that would compare to me just taking a massive amount of, say, liposomal glutathione or something like that in the same situation? Or did you guys test anything like that?

Yeah. So, that's a great question because I want people to make sure they understand that all these products out of the market, some work, some don't work. And I want you to know why it works and why it doesn't work. So, that way, they make an informed decision on their own. So, by the way, the liposome products of the glutathione, you will see a rise of glutathione levels eventually, but not because it's absorbing as glutathione. There's a study that was done in 2011 at the University of Texas in Austin. What they found out was they give the 13 kids liposome products of glutathione. What they saw was a rise of all the 3 amino acids: cysteine, glutamine, and glycine in the blood. And so, after a day or so, and then eventually, those levels drop and they saw rise of glutathione. So, what the researcher concluded was that, hey, the body breaks it down regardless of what technology product that you use. The body will break down the 3 amino acids. Those amino acids gets reabsorbed and actually been used to produce glutathione again. Honestly, you can take— you can eat the amino acids by itself, thick cysteine and glycine and glutamine and together, and the body can make the glutathione again.

Right. You're basically kind of like slowing down the degradation process or increasing the pool of foundational building blocks for glutathione.

That's it. That's it. And the same thing was also proven in the intravenous form of glutathione in 1991. They were injecting 2 grams of IV push, and what they saw was there was a 300-fold increase of glutathione in the urine. But tenfold increase of cysteine in the blood. So, cysteine was getting reabsorbed and used to produce glutathione. So, even though the IV therapy was working, not because you're injecting glutathione and glutathione is getting reabsorbed, it was because the glutathione was getting broken down, cysteine was getting absorbed, cysteine was used to produce glutathione, and then the effect was there.

Wow. Now, surely, your entrepreneurial pharmacist mind has thought a little bit about this, but could you use this same transdermal technology that you developed for some other products, whether peptides or something else?

Yes. And so, right now, in my research lab, we have about 7 different products that we are working on. You mentioned GHK Copper is one of them. We have very world-renowned dermatologists over here in Montecito, California. Once this product in her office. And so, I've been working there for about a couple of years. NAD, as you know, is the toughest molecule to work with. We have a stable NAD molecule in my lab for about 18 months now. And so, we are working on that one. We have a bunch of 2, 3, 4, 5 amino acid peptides that we are working on to deliver this technology. We have vitamin C has already been done. So, we have already released that product on the skincare side as well. So, no, you're right. The same technology we have been using for multiple different things to deliver. Not everything's going to be topical. Some are going to be topical, some are going to be oral. I do not know. But, all of the signs lead me to where it's going to be.

Ben Greenfield: Interesting. How about you? Like, what would be a typical day or week in your life as far as how you would use this product? Because obviously, you're pretty well-versed in the the proper application and dosage. So, walk me through when and the number of sprays and what it looks like for you.

Okay. So, I'm a little different. So typically, I recommend using 4 sprays twice a day for overall health and wellness. But, like you, I travel a lot. I go to about 30 to 35 conferences per year. And when I'm traveling, I'll probably apply, I don't know, maybe about 30 to 35 sprays in one day while I'm traveling. If I do the same amount at home, oh my God, I'll break out rashes and all kinds of itching all over the body, and it'll be— I'll be a mess. But when I'm traveling, I'll apply that much. If I— even if I drink one glass of wine, I'll probably put at least 12 to 15 sprays after drinking.

Oh, man. I think the most I ever did was 6.

Wow. Yeah. So, but I want to clean up everything. I want my liver to be 100% clean at all times, right? And so, most of the hotels are moldy. And so, I can smell the mold in the hotel. And so, I hate moldy hotels. But even though you can have the most expensive hotels that you stay in, you're going to find mold in the carpet all the time. And so, when I'm traveling, I'll probably apply at least 8 to 10 sprays twice a day, or I get the stronger version depending on what I have in my toilet bag at that time.

And I'm assuming the reason you don't or can't do that much at home is because when you don't have as much oxidative stress at home, that there's a risk of almost like overdosing with glutathione and getting some kind of a Herxheimer or detoxification reaction that is a little bit too much?

Absolutely. And thanks for asking, Ben. This is the most important thing people should realize this part. So, until now, there is no glutathione product in the market that you cannot take enough of. You can take any product in the market today. You can even infuse 10 grams of IV push, no problem whatsoever, right? But this topical product is actually doesn't get broken down. That means it's bioavailable to your body. And you can only give what your body can use up or need. If you give too much of it, the body goes from the oxidative stress state to reductive stress state. And that is not good. So, limiting the use of glutathione is critical. And the only way you'll find out is if you take too much glutathione, You will have a rash or you'll itching all over the body. That means you got too much. Slow it down. Just bring back the dose down and you should be fine.

Will the rash be right over where you applied it or will it be in other places too?

So, sometimes, it's the place you apply it. And it all depends on where the stressors are. So, sometimes, people will apply on the arm and the rash can apply— can develop on the liver, right above the liver. Oh, interesting. People get rashes all over. It's different places. It's not at the application site per se all the time. Most of the time, it's at the application site, but sometimes the rash can develop anywhere. I have people here who complain that the rash gets on the face. It goes away pretty immediately. Once you stop it down, it just goes away, and then you reduce the dose down, and the rashes don't come back.

And does the time of day matter?

No. No. It doesn't really matter. But the only thing is that if you're using more than once a day— okay, first of all, if you want to use too much of glutathione, don't use everything at the same time. Okay. So, at one point, you only use 4 to 6 sprays, 8 sprays, 10 sprays maximum, you know, unless you're like me and I'm experimenting all this time. It's a different story. But yeah. But then, you apply more often. Like every 6 hours apart, you can apply it again if you wanted to. Okay.

Interesting. And I'm just curious, you know, you, you're obviously very intellectually driven and do a lot of research on this stuff. When do you actually learn? Like, do you carve out a certain time of day that you pour through research? Or for you, is it just like a constant flow of information? What does it look like for you?

So for me, it's, it's, I'm very, very blessed with the team of people that does everything for me except for research. So, in my things, like I'm talking to you today, this is it. After this is over, I'll dig back into the lab and work with a PhD and try to figure out more ways to stabilize more products and things like that. Head back, prepare some more presentation slides or talk and learn more about it. But I'm constantly talking to physicians. I don't talk to much patients anymore, but I talk to physicians all the time. And I take all the phone calls from them because they're teaching me as to what they're seeing in their practice. And once I learn from there, I try to dig up more information about it and say, "Hey, how is this working out? Why is this working for you?" And so, that's how we collaborate and we work with all doctors across the globe on this product.

Do you read books?

I do read books, but most of my books that I read are Unfortunately, on how to calm myself down.

I got to actually hear what your top titles are for that.

So, the reason what I just— I was on, I think I was on Peter Attias or Andrew Huberman's podcast and James was there about Atomic Habits. Oh, yeah.

James Clear.

Yeah.

James Clear is fantastic.

I just got his book and I'm just reading his book right now as we speak. And, it's very interesting because I thought I was doing everything right, but he gave me a couple more tidbits in there too is the different laws on how to create better habits. So, right now, I'm fixing my morning and evening routine so that those times are completely carved out so I don't have to think about what am I going to do every morning when I wake up and every night before I go to sleep.

Yeah. You two can now have a 3-hour elaborate morning routine and not get any work done. You know, but James Clear also, he just put out on the App Store, I think it's called Atoms. It's an app version that ties in all the principles in Atomic Habits.

Oh, wow. Okay. Atoms.

Yeah. I actually downloaded it. I haven't tried it yet. I think maybe Tim Ferriss wrote out a newsletter about it or something like that. So, as far as calming yourself down, quieting your mind, quelling anxiety, have you come across any good books for that?

No, but what I do for that one is mostly meditation, deep breathing meditations. I probably have about 7 different ways of breathing that I'm experimenting every one of them. Andrew Weil has this 4-7-8 breathing, then there's a 4-4-4-4 box breathing, then there is just deep breathe and hold the breath and just excel it out. So, I'm just trying different ways. I went to the Navy SEALs in San Diego and did the training about breathwork with them, about Wim Hof method with them as well.

Oh, did— what you mean, you mean their, the SEALFIT course?

The SEALFIT course, yeah.

Oh, that was fantastic. I did that one a couple— I actually wound up being a SEALFIT instructor and came down and did the Kokoro Camp and coached that one. And it was my most memorable or one of my most memorable parts of that The 5-day SEALFIT course was— this is the first time I'd ever really done breathwork. I jumped into the deep end because it was a 90-minute holotropic breathwork session that just left me, I wouldn't say shattered emotionally, but just spinning as far as the same feeling you'd get from something like a psilocybin journey or something like that. I don't know if they did that when you were there. But it was—

No, it was a 60-minute one, the maximum we had.

Yeah. They also had a laughing yoga session, which was interesting. If you like breathwork, there's this guy. My son and I were just in the sauna this morning. Brand new guy because we're preparing for a Wim Hof retreat in Poland in December. And I found this great Wim Hof instructor, it's Kytaro Waga, K-I-T-A-R-O W-A-G-A. A bunch of breathwork tips and some— I really like, you know, for me, I'm very picky about the voice, about the music. I like this app called Othership. Instead of Mothership, it's called Othership. There's no one called the Breath Source, but this guy, Kataro Waga on YouTube, he's a new find of mine. And if you like to learn new breathwork tactics, you should check him out.

I will definitely. I did another instructor with somebody out of New York and it was just putting your heart in your chest and your belly and just have a double breathe, and then calm down. Double breathe and calm down.

You mean like the double, like the—

Yep.

Like a double inhale? Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. I did that one for about 20 minutes. And, you know, really clears your mind off. And all it is, all you're trying to do is basically just refocus your mind so you're not constantly— My mind's constantly churning. It's always churning. And so, I just need to kind of just calm myself down.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, yeah. For me, same thing. Mine's always going and it's typically breathwork, prayer, and I really like Yoga Nidra, non-sleep deep rest protocols. Even if I'm not sleeping. I mean, my last international flight, I went to another great instructor on YouTube, Ali Boothroyd. I downloaded an 8-hour Yoga Nidra session from her. Played it on the plane, and had the most relaxing, restful overseas plane flight of my life, laying there for 8 hours doing a non-sleep deep rest protocol.

Wow. Well, I have to take an international flight this year, so I'll probably do that as well.

Yeah. Better than Valium. Well, Nayan, this is super interesting. What I'm going to do is, obviously, people might be interested in your product. If you're listening right now, go to bengreenfieldlife.com/auro-podcast. That's the name of Nayan's company, is Auro Wellness. So, A-U-R-O. So, if you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/auro-podcast, A-U-R-O podcast, I'll link to these Glutaril transdermal glutathione products that we talked about. If you want to try them for yourself and see how you feel. If you have questions or comments or feedback about glutathione for Dr. Patel or myself, you can leave them there. And, Nayan, anything else you want to throw in before I let you go?

The best part about this product is that if you just try for 30 days, you're going to feel the difference. You're going to feel the difference. And, if you don't feel the difference, if you don't see any changes, maybe your glutathione levels are going to be okay. Right? If you're a fitness guy, use it for post-workout. Do not use it before workout. If you're doing hyperbaric chambers or cold plunge therapy, do it afterwards. Don't do it before. So— Why? So, because the thing is you don't want to reduce oxidative stress down early on.

Okay. I thought that. So, you don't want to quell the inflammatory response. It'll be beneficial. You don't want to shut down the hormetic response.

Exactly. So, you want to get all the benefits of exercise and cold plunging and hyperbaric chambers and whatever you do, right? And after that's over, you apply the gluta at that point. So, if there are any questions like these and when to apply it and if there's specific conditions, please let us know. We'll definitely be able to answer those questions for you.

Got it. So otherwise, 4 sprays twice a day, not before workout or a cold plunge. And if you travel, do it like Nayan does and just do a million billion and see what happens.

Yes.

Thank you. All right, cool. BenGreenfieldLife.com/OroPodcast. Thanks everybody for listening in. Until next time, I'm Ben with Nayan Patel signing out from Ben Greenfield Life. Have an amazing week.

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