Are Tanning Beds Safe, The CRAZY Future Of Red Light Therapy & The "Sun Sandwich" concept, Robot Massages, Korean Face Masks & More With Kris Sweeting.

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast, Khloé Kardashian bought this device for all her sisters actually, and then publicly endorsed me, and I didn't have to pay a dime. They just like made me set up this new payment called Bill, and they just sent me like $20,000. They were so cool to work with.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, Fitness, Longevity, and Beyond.

Ben Greenfield: Welcome to the show, folks. When I'm recording this podcast, sometimes off to, I guess, my right, maybe your left depending on how you're looking at the screen, I often have these crazy devices. And, one that's been beside me for many shows lately is this crazy-looking contraption. You probably can't see the whole thing, but what I'll do is I'll adjust my camera just for a second so you guys can see what that looks like. It's the craziest-looking red light panel, if we want to call it that, that I've ever messed around with before. I can push little buttons on it and it'll do UVA, UVB, COB, I forget what that even means, LED. And, it's called an Ultron. Sounds like a Star Wars character. And, there's a lot of red light therapy devices out there. There's beds, there's mats, there's panels, et cetera. And, my apologies if you're listening, my voice faded. I was just readjusting the camera. But, the guy who designed this thing, Chris Sweeney, he reached out to me a few months ago and I was really interested in his unique approach to phototherapy and just his backstory in general, Chris is here with me on the show. His company is EMRTEK, that's spelled with a K, T-E-K. All the shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com/EMRpodcast if you want to dig into some more juiciness on all things photobiomodulation. But Chris, what got you interested in the whole realm of light?

Yeah. So, thanks, Ben. It's cool to be here. I grew up watching you, man, when I was like 24 to like 28.

Oh, thanks for making me feel old. Yeah, right off the bat, just backhanded compliment.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, it's the truth. So, basically, when I was 3 years old, I got the disease called vitiligo, the same disease that Michael Jackson had. By the time I was 5, I was walking around with an umbrella because the doctors told me to stay out of the sunlight, which it ends up being that it's literally the ultraviolet light they thought that was going to damage my skin even more and give me skin cancer because I had no melanin, no essentially photoprotection in my skin. So, they were really worried. Turns out you literally can't get skin cancer basically with vitiligo. And, it's crazy because it's the sun and ultraviolet light that actually repigmented my skin. And, I was pretty disfigured by the time I was 9 to the point where people were like, "I couldn't go anywhere, dude." Ben Greenfield: Yeah.

By the way, it's like for people who aren't in front of Google Images or whatever right now for vitiligo, isn't it reddish patches all over the place?

No, but actually one of my teammates has that totally on her, like all the worst ones, one of the worst ones I've ever seen, but it looks so cool now. But, you can see a little bit on my thumb where it's just depigmented white.

Yeah, it's almost like splotching kind of.

Yeah. And, basically you have too much epidermal hydrogen peroxide in the skin. And, you know what hydrogen peroxide does to your hair, it turns it basically white, it destroys the melanocyte. We have just excessive amounts. And once this doctor in Germany— like, I went to 20 doctors, dude. They put every single type of cream on me. I used to have to put makeup on myself every morning, like, it was because it was so disfiguring. It was bad, bro. But, uh, um, so this German doctor found out that, wow, these people have too much hydrogen peroxide in their skin. So she developed a cream called Pseudocatalase. She was a PhD researcher and a dermatologist. She developed this cream. It reduced the hydrogen peroxide in your skin within 10 minutes. Then you would go into narrowband ultraviolet B, 311, 312 nanometer. So that's an isolated wavelength. That's why they call it narrowband. It's a narrowband of light in the UVB spectrum. And I would go into that specific wavelength of light and it literally repigmented my skin. By the time, within 6 months it started, um, and then within the next like 1 to 2 years I was fully repigmented. And I've literally never had a regression except my hands and feet. That's known in the— it's common in the literature. It's just they think it's, uh, to do with how much chemicals are put on your hands and how much wears on your feet with the shoes and the socks and everything like that. So But, everywhere else, man, I've totally repigmented my body, so no more makeup.

So, is the story of your company like you just taking that light and reproducing it or how'd you start making these panels?

Long story short is I had these beds, these tanning booths in my room, bro. I had broadband UVA, narrowband UVB. I had broadband UVA, UVB. And, I grew up with these in my bedroom since I was 5 years old. I remember I couldn't even open the doors.

Are these the same kind of tanning beds you'd find at a hair salon or a gym?

No. So, we use the exact same bulbs that I grew up using. It's called their Philips from the Netherlands. It's a company in the Netherlands, most vetted ultraviolet product you can buy because it's hazardous. Ultraviolet light can be hazardous in excessive amounts or if it's just a bad bulb or something like that, they make a mistake. So 311, 312 nanometers, that's the wavelength that I was using in the UVB spectrum. UVB does create, you know, fingerprint mutations in the skin, but 311, 312 nanometers, the reason why they use that is 'cause it has the lowest mutation frequency. So you get all the benefits of like increased vitamin D through synthesis of cholesterol in your skin with, and also a ton of different, a plethora of different benefits. With the lowest mutation frequency or rate in the ultraviolet light spectrum or UVB spectrum.

Ben Greenfield: How much time— compare and contrast this with sunlight for me. If I'm using the UVA/UVB spectrum in the wavelength that you've just described, how long would I need to be in front of it if I didn't have vitiligo and I just wanted the benefits of, say, vitamin D production and winter, for example?

Joseph Fung: So, you're going for— it's what's called minimal erythema response. The erythema is basically the blood pooling into the skin to harvest the ultraviolet energy back into the blood. That's why you can push on it and displace it. And, that's the erythema. But, what I mean by a minimal erythema response or dose, it's actually dose, is you want to turn slightly pink. So, Ben, it looks like you got a pretty actually good 10 on. So, I think you'd be good around 3 minutes.

Okay. I have my unit set. I think it came factory default set at 4.

For that, you could do 5. You could do 5 and you'd probably get MED with 5. But, that's the thing, my tanning device is even lower, a little bit more tame than a full-blown ultraviolet narrowband tanning booth. We're using slightly— so, you can go even more. I think if I was to estimate, it's not a recommendation, but I think what would trigger MED for you around 4 minutes.

Ben Greenfield: Could you equivalate the time length of UVA, UVB using a panel like this to how long you'd have to spend out in the sun to get a similar amount?

30 minutes at 12.

Okay. And, is it true? I know we're bouncing all over the place here and I want to hear a little bit more about how you came to form this company. Is it Is it true that if UVA and UVB exposure is accompanied by the red light spectrum that it somehow balances it out in such a manner that it becomes potentially less hazardous?

Yeah, absolutely. Because, well, see, yes, I would use the red in the morning or just get exposure to sunlight in the morning like morning sunlight because it preconditions the skin to accept the ultraviolet light in the afternoon. Then, the reason it's red again at night is photobiomodulation resolves acute inflammation. That's Mary Dyson's work. She did it on rats and humans, but it's really buried, but that's all she studied was wound healing and essentially how the effect of photobiomodulation in resolving acute inflammation. So, in the morning, the red light preconditions your skin by thickening the stratum corneum and basically thickening the stratum corneum, it's called a solar callus of the skin. And so, it's more durable in the afternoon to accept the UV light. And then, in the evening when it's sunset, it's red again and that resolves the acute inflammation induced by the ultraviolet in the afternoon.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. This is super. I haven't talked about this on the show before. Chris, I always thought when people say solar callus, that they were talking about time spent out in the sun, you get a tan, the tan helps to protect you from the rays of the sun. But, it sounds to me like what you're saying is that if I am going to be a sun seeker and get all the health benefits of the sun, in an ideal scenario, I am— and this is way too woo-woo natural and ancestral for many people, I think, but I'm going to get red light exposure from the sun or if I can't from something like a red light panel in the morning, literally seeing the sunrise, and then I'm going to spend the day, be out on the beach, out in the sunlight, working in the garden, whatever. And then, as the icing on the cake, I want to also expose my body to the red light of spectrum at sunset. And, that's kind of the perfect sandwich for human skin, like a sun sandwich.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, that's a sun sandwich right there. And, here's the thing, man, if you don't do that, then there is the deleterious effects. If you don't do that, then the sun It's not that it's bad for you, but it comes with negatives. If you don't do that, it does come with negatives.

If you're just in Las Vegas eating french fries by the pool between 2:00 and 4:00 PM, you slept in until 10:00 AM, never saw sunrise, you're in the club and you never see sunset, that's an example of improper sunlight exposure.

Yeah. And, I think that that is the kind of scenario that does result in some kind of pathology if it's done for 10 years. That's exactly the kind of thing that— and I was just talking about that with my friend that that's exactly what I think is a big problem. I still think it's better compared to getting no sunlight at all. I still think it might be better.

Yeah. Well, maybe depending on whether or not you are actually eating the French fries, the whole seed oils oxidative damage from sunlight radiation might be a discussion for another day.

You know, I saw that in myself, bro. I got it. What do you mean? Like, my fur, dude. Okay. So, I was at an Airbnb, bro. I had totally perfect skin, man. So, I was like, "I know this UVB light because I've been doing it every day." Even synthetic doesn't really age the skin. But, I was at an Airbnb in Costa Rica and they had this weird oil and I was like, "Ah." It was definitely a seed oil, dude. And, I was going through an audit, a corporate audit, and I was like, I don't care right now. I can't deal with this. I'm just cooking with this right now. And dude, I cook and I never cook with that. And I cooked with it. I spent a lot of time in the sun as well, dude. And I got some oxidized seed oil in my face, which is in age spots. It's a sunspot. It's small, but for me, I noticed it because I never had any kind of hyperpigmentation at all. And I think that's what happens when you eat the seed oils and then go in the sun.

Yeah, people say the same thing about oxidized fish oil and sunspots, like having a rancid or a fish oil that's been exposed to a lot of temperature or oxidation. Yeah, I don't know of any imaging studies because they can do actual imaging studies of collagen structure, wrinkles, et cetera, that have looked specifically at seed oils versus a control group and sunlight exposure. But, I suspect that the whole grandma from Something About Mary effect definitely takes place.

It's probably an inflammatory effect. It's like a compounded inflammatory instead of a balanced inflammatory anti-inflammatory thing. I think that's probably what it is.

Yeah. Not to mention in many cases, people consuming a diet rich in oxidized oils or fried foods and ultra-processed foods have a low intake of collagen-supporting foods, which I don't think does the skin any favors either. Geek out on this light with me. This Ultron. Just as a matter of illustrative description of what you create, what comes out of your crazy mind, Chris, walk me through the components of this thing and why you choose to focus on what you do with light as far as the frequencies that you use and how you work in the UVA, UVB piece, which you've already described a little bit. Just geek out on this with me.

Yeah, man. Well, we use the wavelengths of light that are scientifically proven to enhance mitochondrial function. And they, uh, by mitochondrial function, I mean mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Um, there's 3 wavelengths of light, 2 in the red visible spectrum, 1 in the near-infrared spectrum. So it's 630 nanometers, 670, those are 2 red wavelengths. And then there's 830 nanometers, that's 1 near-infrared wavelength. Essentially what these, with, with these wavelengths of light do is they hit the 4th enzyme in the mitochondrial electron transport chain. This is where all your electrons get processed. They spin, and it generates chemical energy for your body to use.

Is that cytochrome c oxidase?

Yeah, cytochrome c oxidase. So these wavelengths, 630, 670, 830, they hit this enzyme. It's called photodissociation. So they unbind nitric oxide. They dissociate the nitric oxide from the electron transport chain because nitric oxide and oxygen flow basically compete. For flow down the chain. When you unbind nitric oxide, oxygen is more effectively processed and the net result is more adenosine triphosphate. So, those are the photobiomodulation wavelengths that we use.

Ben Greenfield: When nitric oxide dissociates from this complex in the mitochondria from cytochrome c oxidase, is that one of the reasons people get a little bit of a vasodilatory vasculature effect from red light because the nitric oxide winds up in the vasculature?

I'm not sure that that actually happens. I think that it unbinds somewhere into the cell and then it's elevated, but it's released or activated or released by ultraviolet A. That's what I believe is the case.

Well, what I mean is when it's released though, when it's released, does it have a similar effect on the body as if I'd drank some beet juice or something like that?

I've never felt like that. I've never noticed that and I've never read any literature about that, but I've just never looked into it. I've always known for sure that UVA, which is in that device, broadband UVA, does vasodilate. I'm sure the heat—

I was going to say because you do get it when you get a mild heating effect even when you're laying in one of these red light beds, for example, And, that alone might cause a little bit of a cooling mechanism to take place with the body sending blood to the extremities. So, I'm sure that's part of it as well.

Well, yeah. And, it's wherever energy goes, blood flows. So, there would have to be some sort of— actually, you know what, dude, that's true because wherever energy goes, blood flows. So, it's just a much less potent vasodilator than UVA.

Okay. Alright. Built into this device? You said 630, 670, and 830 wavelengths of red and then near-infrared light.

There might even be 850 in there. Dude, I have 20 different specs of units now, so it's so hard for me to keep track of all this shit.

Okay. Well, that's a pretty slight difference, 20 nanometers between 830 and 850.

Yeah, it might be both. It might be both is what I'm saying.

95% of people listening in right now do not care about that difference. So, you've got those 3 wavelengths. And, I mean, is that different? Because I do some work with DaVinci because I work with 10x and I've got a Theralyte bed and then a Theralyte panel above one of my exercise bikes. I've done stuff with Joovv before, so I've got these Joovv lights. Are they all pretty much using the same frequencies or wavelengths?

Yeah. Well, they do use the same wavelengths. 850, some of the companies probably went with 850 because it's actually a lot cheaper than 830. That's the case.

That seems kind of weird to be cheaper and there's not that much of a difference in the nanometers.

I know, but it's just true. It's just true. I found that out through one of my manufacturers. Yeah, basically just, just switching to 850 to try and meet my price that I needed. Um, and I was like, like, is— and then I realized it was that big of a difference. But I, I'm not, I'm not sure about all the brands. Um, what I, what I can say is that, um, I mean, for example, the Firehawk, I, I made that for Duncan Keith, the Chicago Blackhawk.

What's, what's the Firehawk?

The Firehawk is the lower-end model of what I gave you, which is the Ultron. I literally drew that on the back of a cereal box at 1:00 a.m., dude. And, I'm just trying to advance light therapy. Literally, that standing behind you is the first full-body laser acupuncture device in the world.

Ben Greenfield: What's that even mean, laser acupuncture?

So, you can hit the meridian points of the body with laser light. The COB chips are kind of— it's not tech, they're kind of in between an LED and a laser because essentially it's not really in physics terms but kind of. They do hit the acupoints of the body or even the joint points with increased light energy. And essentially, it's a diode cluster. But, in comparison, if you took a like a radiance meter and you put it up to just the normal diodes on the unit that you have and then you moved it over to the COB chip, the difference would be 200 to 1,400.

What do you mean COB chip? Sorry if I sound dumb here. I might need some explanation of this.

It's called a circuit on board chip. So, the large globes on that.

These things?

Yes. Yes, those large globes. So, all the small diodes are 3-watt diodes, right? But, we pack 64 of those 3-watt diodes into the circumference of an inch and then beam it out using a cone-shaped 30-degree lens, which further concentrates the light. Okay. So, you'll essentially, and you can even feel that those are much more powerful in terms of heat. But, the difference is 1,000% more power essentially.

So, if it's acting on the meridian points of the body when I'm standing in front of it or behind it, wouldn't that change based on how tall somebody is like where the lights are going to hit?

Yeah. So, you're a pretty good candidate for this. Obviously, I've thought about making it adjustable and shit, but that's That's pretty— maybe I do that in the future.

What height is it ideally designed for then?

Yeah. So, Duncan Keith, I made it for myself and Duncan Keith. I'm 6'1¾", but anyone from 5'11" to 6'3" can kind of— you could get away with 5'10" to 6'3". It works pretty well. How tall are you, Ben?

I'm 6'3". So, if you're super short, you would have to kind of maybe put a little platform to stand up on, People might not be able to see with the camera, but right in the middle, there's a big diode. Should that one be towards the back of the head?

Yeah. It should be like line— honestly, I made it to line up with your forehead.

Yeah. It's right around my forehead, to be honest with you. So, based on that, if you're facing it, because honestly most of the time when I'm using it, it's for the first 20 minutes of work in the morning, so it's on my back. But, if you're facing it, do you have to be cautious about eye exposure? Because I've heard that with red light, the eye protection goggle thing isn't as big of a deal, but with UVA and UVB, it might be.

Yeah, man. And, I've seen this happen, dude. Well, I've done it to myself. I've made all the mistakes with ultraviolet light, dude. I burned myself so bad a couple times.

You burn yourself?

Oh, I burnt myself, dude, on my lights when I was— a long time ago when I was using them for vitiligo when I was like 12, 13, punching in the password, programming the time. I made mistakes where I had multiple tanning beds in my bedroom, right? So, I would use one that didn't have 4 doors, so I would have to switch and turn around and do my back. And so, I had to do that for 8 minutes. One time, just, I don't know, I wasn't thinking, I came in, programmed my 4-door for 8 minutes and just cooked in it. Dude, oh my God.

So there's that much of a difference between like 4 minutes in front of this thing and 8 minutes in front of the one that I was using, which is a 4-door full-blown— Oh, that's different than the beds that you're— than the panels that you're making now then.

Yes, they're so much more tame because that, that— yes, that would— that device that would have to come with much more heavy disclaimer. I'm making— I'm trying to make everyday Use safe lights that people can't hurt themselves with. You can't hurt yourself with that.

Yeah. So, I should have goggles on if I'm facing it and looking at the UVA/UVB?

Because it'll make your eyeball red. It'll make your eyeball red, the same thing that happens to your skin. Your whole eye will go red, man.

How far away from a panel do you have to stand typically if someone's using a red light panel?

So, that one's really good. It depends. What kind of drivers they're using. We use Meanwell power drivers. You can Google them. It used to be a trade secret, but I don't really care anymore. They take the flicker out and the magnetic field is zero. We're the first company to figure that out.

Does that translate into meaning it's flicker-free, low EMF?

Yeah, exactly. And so, depending on the drivers in your device, you want to obviously stay outside of the electromagnetic field because Also, these LED devices, there's a lot of dirty electricity. You don't want to be in the field because it's not just an electromagnetic field, it's a dirty electromagnetic field. So, with the Meanwell Power Driver, that's the cleanest thing ever. But, if you want to go look at the cost of them, it's pretty brutal.

Ben Greenfield: You're going to freak out a lot of people because obviously people are using all sorts of different red light devices. Are you telling me that you should use some kind of a meter to test it? And if so, what would you be looking for?

I mean, you would want to test for electromagnetic fields. So, yeah, electric field, magnetic field. Electric field's always going to be there to some extent. In our devices, they're so powerful. So the thing about the COB chip, that's why I explained how powerful it is. You can use it at a further distance, right? That's what it translates to. And you can use it completely outside the electric field with all these devices, these other devices that are just like 3-watt diodes. They all kind of look the same, the red light therapy. You can't get a therapeutic dose outside the electric field. You actually, you can't.

I see what you're saying. But, does it matter if it's just 20 minutes? Is that a big deal?

I mean, I don't think it does at all. I honestly don't think it does at all because I think carrying your phone on you for an hour is more radiation.

Yeah. I was going to say walking through the average airport, you're probably getting more radiation than standing in front of a red light panel for 20 minutes.

Dude, I used to be like that and then I'm like, "This is not good for my mental health." Dude, there was one point in my life I had a cell— because I used to go in before EMR Tuck started and measure the electromagnetic fields in infants' houses. Dude, this was 10 years ago.

I was 24.

Yeah.

My take on it, Chris, is if you are getting adequate magnesium and minerals, your earthing, your grounding, you're sleeping in a room that's preferably low EMF, you don't have to be a total Luddite. And, there are certain devices, probably my hyperbaric chamber, my vibrating relaxation chair, some of my red light devices, et cetera. Yeah, I'm getting exposed to an electrical field, but then the question also becomes, does the advantage that it gives you outweigh any disadvantages? Even that Eight Sleep mattress or topper, Apparently, that tests pretty high for electromagnetic fields, but let's say for you, that's the difference between getting 5 hours of sleep a night or 8 hours of sleep. I question whether the extra 3 hours of sleep that you're getting per night overrides the radiation damage you might be getting from a little bit of extra electromagnetic exposure during a night of sleep.

Ben Greenfield: Absolutely, dude. And, the first step in terms of EMF is not like going crazy, like, oh, does this device have EMF? It's like, take a detox from your cell phone, like, turn— like, as much as you can, just like get away from that thing. Like, I— the mass addiction is these phones, dude, and they're so bad. They're so bad for like so many reasons. Posture, it's just like, it's just, they're just really, really underrated in terms of how they can damage your life.

Yeah, I get jealous of my wife. She's rarely on hers because she rarely has to. Let's talk about marketing terms in the red light industry. You hear the word full spectrum thrown around a lot. What does that mean? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I guess it would mean that the full spectrum of sunlight. I mean, I honestly stopped paying attention to— I can go talk about a lot of the industry here, but I stopped paying attention to a lot of these other companies like a long time ago because I realized that like they're really like— I don't mean to sound in any way condescending to anybody, but dude, I'm not.

I don't, I don't care. We're all adults here. Like people can—

yeah, like I just, I just don't— they're like, it's about 3 or 4 years ago I was like, I'm not gonna listen to these guys anymore. Like I'm just like turn them off because they're not on my level. At all.

Well, a lot of people listening are going to jump right out and say, "Well, that sounds pretty haughty of you." So, what do you mean when you say that?

That's fine. I mean, you can just go take a look at the manufacturing level on the Ultron on my website and then if you want to send me something you think is comparable at a similar price point. I mean, that's really all I think I have to say.

Okay. Explain that though. Let's say somebody's listening right now, they're like, "Screw it. I don't have the time to go visit this website. I'm right in the middle of workout right now. Um, like, walk me through what it is that you've done that, that's different.

Well, I mean, we, like I said, we're the first, we're the first company to actually take the flicker out. We took the magnetic field completely out. Like, you can take a Tri-Field or magnetic field meter and push it up literally against the device, it's gone. Um, and just in terms of, uh, of the COB chips, uh, Essentially, Khloé Kardashian bought this device for all her sisters actually and then publicly endorsed me. And, I didn't have to pay a dime. She actually transferred me, dude. So—

Did you have to adjust the meridians for butt real estate or anything like that?

No, man.

Custom versions?

They were so cool. They just made me set up this new payment called Bill and they they just sent me like $20,000. And then, it was like they were so cool to work with and then I got connected with all of them. But yeah, man, I really think— and then, you can take a look at any single kind of ultraviolet device on the market. This is the first full-body laser acupuncture device. Technically, it is a full-body low-level laser acupuncture device. That's technically what it could be deemed. And, I just don't think there's any innovation like that out there.

Ben Greenfield: Explain this to me. If I'm standing in front of another red light panel or laying in a red light bed and we talk about the body having these meridians and the concept of laser acupuncture targeting those meridians, those things kind of COVID the whole body. Wouldn't I be still getting this, what you're calling, the acupuncture effect? Walk me through why that'd be any different.

Well, because usually it's done with the laser. So, it's done with higher irradiance beams of light and not low-level laser.

So, what you're saying then is the way that you've concentrated all these diodes to be super dense and powerful that because there's a few super dense spots, those spots are targeting meridians so you're getting a more powerful light concentration in those areas.

Yeah. And we may put lasers in them. We may put lasers in the middle of the COB chips, but that's something that I'm working on. But yeah, essentially, essentially it's getting close to, to being that. And I think, you know, a lot— there's a lot of devices on the market and they all look the same. And, you know, I guess I'm going to cause some controversy on this one, but this is my last podcast and I'm so happy to do it, Ben.

Go out in a blaze of glory.

Here we go.

That's right.

That's right. The reason that they all look the same is because they are the same. I mean, that was like a joke that I had, but it's not really a joke. I mean, I just got sick of like people asking me like, hey, like, what do you think of this device? I'm like, you mean the same device that every single other company sells, like with a different stand and a different logo? It's just that's what it is.

Ben Greenfield: So, I mean, are you just saying that or you know that to be the case? Because I mean, so you'll see some things on Alibaba or whatever kind of sort of looks similar but then you really get a close-up and it's not. I've reached out to a few companies. They say they're using medical-grade materials that are different than the ones that you get from China. So, I mean, how do you know? How do you know?

Like what though? Like, like what? Like what? Like medical grade what? Like medical grade iron? Like that they forge the cases out of? Like, I don't— it doesn't— that's, that's, that's, that's why I stopped paying attention to this industry.

That's painting with a really broad brush though. I mean, you think there's really like, like they're all the same?

Basically, yes. And the difference would be the drivers. And if they, you know, And they— what, what everyone should be doing is putting Meanwell drivers in their units like, like we are, because they're the best. And that's— they, like I said, they reduce the flicker to zero and they take the magnetic field out. There is still electric field, it's really well mitigated, um, better than all the other drivers. But I was paying like $5 a driver. Meanwell drivers are like, like $60, $70 a piece.

So Okay. So, it's going to eat into margins, but if there was 5 companies that listen to this podcast because I'm sure some red light manufacturers are going to tune in and they switched using Meanwell drivers, would that just fix everything and then they'd be the equivalent of what you do?

Yeah, essentially. I mean, they'd have different cases, but yeah. I mean, if they added in the COB chips, then they would be on the same power level. Um, we do have some patents, granted patents actually.

So what are your patents?

You know, we have granted patents on the Krypton models, so we gotta have— they're not patent pending, they're granted.

What's a Krypton?

A Krypton is a smaller ultraviolet device, um, that is— it's like the baby brother of what you have, which is the Ultron.

Okay.

All right, so I love superheroes. I actually had to change a lot of, a lot of names on my— oh bro, I had to change a lot recently. We had to just ChatGPT the whole list and put it over to something.

What, are you getting sued by Marvel or—

no, man, but I could, like, you know.

Okay, okay, so preventive business practices. All right, so you've got full spectrum, and then here's another couple of terms I, I would love to hear your take on this. You hear broadband and narrowband as other terms that are used.

What do those mean? That's legit. That's legit. Broadband is the full— so broadband UVA is what we have in the Ultron. That's the whole UVA spectrum. Narrowband in the context, so it's a narrowband UVB 311, 312. That is a narrowband of light, only 311 and 312 nanometers out of the the whole wavelength or whole spectrum. So, it's 2 wavelengths in that spectrum instead of the whole broad spectrum. So, it's a narrowband. Those are legitimate terms. Those are legitimate.

So, broadband refers to UVA, narrowband refers to UVB. When we're talking about red light, we're up in the 600 to 800s. When we're talking about UVA, UVB—

Oh, that's basically the red light is narrowband too because it's an isolated wavelength.

Wavelength. Oh, because it's a narrow band, that's what you mean, right?

Yeah. And, and the reason we use the narrow band— we use the broadband UVA is because, um, is be— and narrow band UVB is because the narrow band in the UVB, that wavelength specifically, is deemed to be the least mutagenic. So like, not only am I going to Philips in the Netherlands to source my bulbs so you don't have to put the trust in EMR Tech. You can relax and know that we're using Philips FDA-cleared ultraviolet, most vetted ultraviolet product in the world. Expensive, but, um, it is what it is. Um, and, and they have the least, uh, mutation frequency. And, and also Philips, because they've been around so long, they have been used in the, in the medical literature for narrowband UVB therapy the most.

So, yeah, least mutation frequency, meaning lower risk of me growing a third testicle on my backside. Yeah. UV-A, UV-B.

Which is a funny segue. Yeah, which is a funny segue because I remember an article when I was growing up about the shining red light on the balls. That one's never going to die.

I'll live that one down. Strike two for making me Old. Alright. So, that's also a segue into something I want to ask you about. The actual exposure time and frequency is an interesting topic because some people say that if you are getting too much use of, let's say, the red light spectrum, you might create excess reactive oxygen species. There's kind of a Goldilocks zone in terms of time frequency. How do you recommend people use something like a red light panel or Bed or anything or one of these devices in terms of days per week and amount of time?

Yeah. So, I mean, just for general wellness, I think obviously you can calculate the joules that you're exposed to, but there's some companies that provide handbooks to treat different pathologies. One, you can't do that. That's illegal. Most of these people are not doctors and And they don't even have Class II medical devices.

Wait. So, are you saying that if a device comes and there's a little manual that says use this for pain inflammation, use this for recovery, or does it have to be that or does it have to be disease state? Like, if it says use this for cancer, use this for diabetes because there's obviously a difference between saying energy or fighting cancer.

Yeah. I mean, there's even a difference between pain. And energy. Pain relief would be medical.

Yeah, I forgot about that. That's a pretty broad one, huh?

It's a broad one. And, I know that for a reason because my BioWave, my first product, won Amazon's Choice for a couple keywords and it got deactivated because I did make that claim.

Yeah. So, there's a lot of people possibly playing with fire. Alright. So, that being said, tell me about the time and frequency.

Yeah. So I mean, you'd have to calculate the joules, but of energy that you're absorbing and yeah, that's a little bit more complicated.

I was going to say most people are not going to do that. Let's, let's go with large averages here.

Right. So like, I think for people, for, for units that are producing over like 100 milliwatts per centimeter squared, I think you can do anywhere from like 4 at a— it depends, like at a distance of Our general recommendation is at a distance of 30 to 80 centimeters, 10 to 20 minutes depending on essentially the depth of the target tissue and the obstructive tissue in front of it. The brain, for example, is going to be a little bit more exposure than the skin, for example.

Meaning the brain could use higher amounts of red light exposure than the skin.

Yeah. And irradiance also affects penetration efficacy. He's got only like 2% or 1 to 2% of the near-infrared photons are actually going to penetrate the skull. Ben, that's why I have— and transcranial photobiomodulation is light passing through the skull to enhance brain function, essentially.

I have one. I have a, uh, I have a V-Light. You've heard of them before, right?

I— they're actually there. They are in, uh, Toronto. And that's actually a really cool company. Like, that's a company that did some innovation. I remember I was like, this is really cool.

Are you, are you doing anything like that with your company, with the EMR Tech?

So here's it, here's where we're going. Um, and essentially because I realized that I had too much epidermal hydrogen peroxide in my skin and that I, I could modulate that factor with a topical applicant and then go into a specific wavelength of light and literally way more effectively treat, in this case, a pathology. But, I'm looking at it from a cosmetics perspective. So, I've made cosmetics in South Korea essentially that synergize and amplify the effectiveness of, for example, increasing collagen, elastin, reducing hyperpigmentation. And, I have coinciding products that go with each wavelength of light. For example, our mask, our new Aeterno mask, it's a multi-wavelength LED face mask that floats 3 millimeters off your skin. This is a kind of like design. Like, for example, there's a, there's a, there's a mask out there that they all look the same for a reason. Even the mask is because the best-selling product on Alibaba and even all these branded companies are using it. But, that sticks right on your face.

I know this because I do a clay mask once a week and I wear one of those masks and it's always stuck with clay when I pull it off. So, it is tied up against the face.

And then, you have to clean it. And then, so ours literally floats 3 millimeters off your face. And so, say a woman had wanted to increase collagen and elastin. Well, it's almost common sense that you would apply a hydrolyzed marine collagen topical applicant with maybe some vitamin C to enhance collagen synthesis. Some other things to support collagen, elastin, and the fibroblast tissues or cells. And then, you would apply red light or red and near-infrared light for increased collagen, elastin. If you had a problem with hyperpigmentation, well, you would use 525-nanometer green light. That's also in our LED face mask. But, you would prime the skin with something like niacinamide, coenzyme Q10, which also— these are both alpha arbutin. These are bleaching agents for the skin to reduce hyperpigmentation. 525-nanometer green light also reduces— is suggested to reduce hyperpigmentation.

Wouldn't that give you a pale face though if you didn't have enough pigmentation?

I mean, it could. And, that's what a lot of the women in Asia are doing.

Oh, yeah. Good point. I've heard about that. There's a craving for a slightly lighter complexion.

Yeah. And, we're seeing it in our sales worldwide. But, it's really funny actually. But, long story short, women suffer from hyperpigmentation and it's something that really bothers them. I know this because my mom tries all my products and she loves this stuff.

Do you have that on your label, mom-tested, kid-approved?

Yeah, I should. I should.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, you were saying the direction of your company, is this what you're doing now? You're just doing face masks and topicals?

It's cosmetics. It's really cool because it's literally a sheet mask from South Korea. We did it really right, man. They're all color-coded. The branding's even amazing. The branding was the hardest part for me. The scientific big part. And, and the idea was, was pretty much easy. Getting a, like, getting a real cosmetics company like this, uh, branded properly, like, that, that was a challenge. But, uh, but yeah, so basically it's a sheet mask. They come in boxes of 10. You open them and you, you like separate it from the, um—

oh, I've worn one of these before. It's like this sticky thing that you put on your face. Yeah, yeah. But, don't you have to just lay on your back? You can't walk around with that on.

Yes, but this is what my mom does. She's watching TLC. She's chilling when she gets home. In skincare, I don't know if you guys know this company. It just got bought for $1.3 billion from Estée Lauder, but it's called DECIEM Cosmetics, The Ordinary, the abnormal beauty company.

I feel like I'm living under a rock. Never heard of them.

Bro, it's— it was— so I had the opportunity to hang out with the founder of that company. Long story short, he said he was going to expose some people from financial crimes and at that level and never was seen again. I was the last guy to have dinner with him. Um, but, um, yeah, super creepy, dude. I was— yeah, that's true story. His name is Brandon Truex, fell from his balcony 33 Mill Street. My girlfriend was his real estate agent.

Anyways.

Oopsie. Oopsies. Yeah, I'm not sure if he fell actually, but yeah, I got the benefit of hanging around him. And so, he kind of taught me a lot about cosmetics to the point where we were going to fly to Morocco the next day or someplace in Italy, you were just going to pick, and we're going to start a new cosmetics company because Estée Lauder had ousted him as CEO of Deciem at that point and he kind of lost his whole family.

Oh, so he sold Deciem to Estée Lauder, now he's out, now you're talking with him about a concept and then he dies.

Yeah, exactly. And, to the point where he was going to come pick me up, we're going to expedite our passports because we both didn't have them ready and he just doesn't show up. But besides that, he taught me all the really ways to do cosmetics properly. He's like, "Go to South Korea, use this lab, blah, blah, blah." And yeah, man, I mean, so the thing he also taught me about the experience and the routine, I don't know if I should blast all my details on here, but women want a routine and an experience for cosmetics is part of the reason why. I'm just talking some psychology behind the whole industry. It's part of the reason why women will go to buy expensive Estée Lauder cosmetics and mix them up in front of a mirror and apply them every night. Literally make— there's 3 components and they'll mix it up themselves and apply it because they want the experience, they want the routine.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, it's a ritual. Yeah, this is like when I finish a workout and sometimes I don't feel like a smoothie and I make a smoothie just because it's part of my morning ritual. Sometimes I just make it and then I'll have some of my son's eggs instead. It's just there.

It's fun. And, you know, what if like— so, my mom likes to watch TV, so she just puts this mask on. She can still see, she can still eat, she can still breathe. And then, she'll take it off, let it just sit in for 10 minutes and then she doesn't even move, She just takes the LED mask, which is totally wireless, straps it on her head and use it. And, there's zero light leakage, zero. You can look at the pictures on her website. And, she can watch TV or whatever or cook or read or whatever, but it's a full routine and experience. And, the thing on top of it that's the best is this shit, it works. I made sure of that. My ex-girlfriend had terrible laser burn, really bad hyperpigmentation in her back. Yeah, we use the niacinamide just only this sole ingredient that we use niacinamide. And, I would literally break ampules open and just put it on and we did it for 6 months. And, this stuff did minimize by— it didn't minimize, it reduced the hyperpigmentation by 50%. I was taking pictures.

What would happen to a guy's face? If a guy like me were to wear a mask like this, am I doing it every day? And also, what do you see?

You look like you have really healthy skin, man.

I was like, "Damn, this guy aged really good." My mom has really good skin and then I eat a pretty low-inflammatory diet. I do a clay mask with the red light thing. Once a week.

I might get this quite nice.

Yeah, it works great. I do a derma rolling right before I do it. I do mostly the Olitora skin products in the morning and the evening. I wash my face really well in the morning and use a scrub twice a week. And then, the last thing, and I know this kind of sounds not very doable for a lot of people, but I've probably had in the course of my life 4 facial stem cell protocols with exosomes. And probably another half a dozen PRP treatments on my face. So, I've done a lot of stuff and then I've just got the genetics from my mom of this kind of Mediterranean-esque skin kissed with olive oil or whatever. Yeah.

You do, you do, bro. You do. I got to give it to you.

Holy smokes. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, obviously, that's a lot of stuff. With the mask, I don't really use one of those. What do you expect when you use a What do you mean?

An LED face mask?

Is it less wrinkles? Is it more shine, less shine, tanning effect?

Yeah. No, it's less wrinkles. It depends which wavelengths you use, right? So, for red, it would be less wrinkles. For green, it would be reduced hyperpigmentation. And if you want to look it up, just use ChatGPT and say, "Does 525-nanometer green light reduce hyperpigmentation?" and take a look at the data.

Don't most masks use red?

Yeah. So, they do use red. Some use near-infrared. I've noticed that some near-infrared, especially if you put it really close to the skin, can actually cause hyperpigmentation. I think that's a potential outcome of near-infrared light. So, we omitted that, but yeah, 633 and 830 were studied and those wavelengths together. So, that's red and near-infrared light together more effectively stimulate collagen elastin production than 630 alone or 830 alone. So, I mean, if you're— yeah. But yeah, so red does fine lines and wrinkles. Green, 525-nanometer green specifically reduces hyperpigmentation. 580 yellow is good for even rosacea-like symptoms. We don't make it that claim, but any redness, irritation, rosacea was cited. And, that data is less conclusive than the green light for the hyperpigmentation. And then, that data for the green light is less conclusive by far than red for fine lines and wrinkles. But, it's emerging. And, I think, yeah, I think, I mean, because of my story and I saw it literally happen to my body, I think this stuff is really, really possible.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, it's interesting. What do you think about the concept of so-called human photobiomodulation? Like the idea that if you have certain pigments in your bloodstream like say methylene blue or I think the black pigments from shilajit or a bluish-green pigment from a phycocyanin that when photons of light get absorbed, I think the way it's generally explained is the photons of light from the red light spectrum would use that as a catalyst, that color as a catalyst to split water water, water being H2O, dihydrogen oxide. So, splitting 2 molecules of water into 2 dihydrogens and 2 oxygens, and that would allow for generation of ATP by freeing up more electrons for the electron transport chain. Have you run into that concept at all like take methylene blue and then go into the red light?

Absolutely. I haven't jumped down that pathway on the methylene blue, personally just because I went down this cosmetics thing, but I saw it taking place in the industry and I think there's some pretty good science behind it that would make sense, right?

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people now who are taking methylene blue, waiting 30 to 90 minutes and then doing red light therapy and reporting increases in energy and better performance, et cetera.

I would potentially combine it with coenzyme Q10 orally as well because there's 3 published studies that literally just say, it's basically in the title, photobiomodulation combined with coenzyme Q10 orally are synergistic. Yeah. And, that makes total sense, right?

That's a common ingredient in a supplement like a multivitamin ubiquinol or coenzyme Q10. What you're saying is you could time that prior to red light therapy. And I don't know the mechanism of action for that. It might act as a catalyst for splitting water also, but you would essentially allow for better photonic splitting of water and more electrons for the electron transport chain subsequently, more ATP by using CoQ10.

Exactly. And so, that's supported orally, but I even— yeah, I'm suggesting you do that orally because it's supported by the literature to enhance enhance photobiomodulation and work synergistically. But ubiquinone or coenzyme Q10 is actually one of the most potent hyperpigmentation reductors. So, we're talking about enhancing photobiomodulation through ATP, but we're using this as a primary ingredient in the face topical that reduces hyperpigmentation.

Yeah, I've seen it in some beauty products. Certainly cleaner than smearing yourself with methylene blue head to toe.

Yeah. Not funner though.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you guys are up to all sorts of interesting things over there. You got the cosmetic, you got these masks, you got the panels.

I got a robot too. I'm working on a robot. What do you mean? Well, it's essentially a robot that walks around your house disinfecting disinfecting for all the viral DNA. 254-nanometer ultraviolet C light at 2.5 milliwatts per centimeter squared kills all viral DNA. So, if you could find something that would do that and just walk around your house at night just making sure the power density of 254 is 2.5 milliwatts per centimeter squared or higher, then you just go around disinfecting everything.

You would have made banks during COVID I have an ultraviolet toothbrush, but robot, that's another level. I was looking the other day, they got robot massage units now at Equinox Fitness where you can just lay there. Really? Have you had one?

No, but I want to and you don't have to pay them as much.

Well, picture this, the ones at Equinox because I looked them up, I was thinking about trying, because you don't need to be a member to go use them. Apparently, it's like an arm on one side, an arm on the other side, some kind of rotating massage device under the body and it just works you kind of like a little bit more dynamic version of a massage chair.

I see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let me see this. Yeah. I would imagine you could probably source something like that from Alibaba. Of course, then you come back full circle to what we were talking about earlier.

That's pretty sweet looking.

Your 90-minute hefty electrical field exposure from your weekly massage.

That's right. I think that's done. They're probably better than humans at massaging you, to be honest with you.

Oh, I'm sure they are because with humans, you get something different every time. But granted, with humans, you also get human touch, oxytocin, some of the electromagnetic field of another human. There's things that a robot couldn't give you too.

You gave me another idea, dude.

I'll tell you, a red light massage, red light massage robot.

100%. I'm like, what if this thing's just pumping lasers?

Put lasers at the same— that's a cool idea.

On the fingers, on the fingers.

As long as those diodes don't break, you get like a broken glass massage. Yeah, that's an interesting idea.

Do you know why? So, talking about things that can can go wrong. Like, I remember it. So, there's a lot of— honestly, I get a lot of emails. I don't look at the emails too much anymore, but I get in the customer service, there's a lot of women that actually want the red light therapy for vaginal health. And, I looked into it because of the invasive nature of just these devices. They could be considered Class 3 medical devices, But, like, imagine if you had a malfunction when something's inside you.

What are you going to invent, a super safe red light tampon or something?

No, I'm not going to do that because first of all, I don't want to and I just feel like it's out of my scope of work or something.

Yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying though. You literally have an electrical medical device inside you.

It could blow up inside you. And these things are coming from China with no QA, no FDA clearance.

I'm just like, "What?" Yeah, yeah, probably less safe than a vibrator, I imagine. Yeah. That's it. You're freaking out a lot of people. A lot of people are using vaginal red light freaking out right now. Chris, this is just fascinating. I mean, is there anything else you want to share with people about photobiomodulation in the few minutes that we have left that's kind of getting you excited right now besides the vaginal red light?

I think I've dropped a lot, man.

No.

That's the only— that's general, that's what's on my mind these days.

Well, okay, so you got the Ultron. This thing's kind of expensive, isn't it?

Yeah, it's expensive. I mean, the margins aren't even that good at that. It's super expensive to manufacture.

But then, you said the other ones were the Firehawk and the Krypton.

The Krypton is— we have a mini Krypton. It's like right now with the discount code, it's like $600. And that's one of the more expensive devices on our website. It's an ultraviolet light. It'll do the trick. It's definitely a cool place to start. I'm not going to make the claim that it increases vitamin D, but it has the same bulbs that are clinically proven to increase vitamin D in other studies. We used to sell, but I'm not making that claim on my product. But I'm just saying it does. Ben: Okay.

All right. Well, if folks go to the shownotes at BenGreenfieldLife.com/EMRpodcast, I'll link out to your catalog and your website and everything. I think we do have some kind of a discount code somewhere. And yeah, if you guys have questions or comments or feedback, things I didn't ask Chris, just leave them right there in the shownotes. I read all the comments. Again, at BenGreenfieldLife.com/EMRpodcast. Chris, you're one fascinating dude. Thanks for doing this.

Thank you, sir. You too, you too, man. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for making me feel good. Take care, man. All right, folks, I'm Ben Greenfield with Chris Sweeten signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com. Have an incredible week.

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