Could This “Bible Secret” Be The Cure For Cancer? The WISEST Meal In The World, Pork & Shellfish *Confusion* & Much More With Jordan Rubin

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast, I immediately realized this isn't leaves that the Bible is talking about.

This specifically is a leaf from a fruit tree. And as soon as that passage of scripture came out of the app into my ears, I felt God say with as audible of a voice as I have ever heard, this is it.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist. And, I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond.

Right before I started recording, I was telling my podcast guest that the family and I like to memorize Bible verses. And, we're working through Psalms right now, Psalm 139. He said they have a psalm, he and his family have a psalm that they recite. I think you said, Jordan, every night at dinner?

Every night when we're together, Ben, which is not every night, but, uh, we, we try to do it. Yes.

And you said it's a Psalm of protection?

Yes, Psalm 91. And there have been at least 3 books written about those who recite Psalm 91 and avoiding major catastrophes when others around them were dying. So yeah, very cool stuff. But yeah, Psalm 91, it's— I would call it a moderate length Psalm, very worth memorizing. And the man who helped me get well, taught me to eat and live from the Bible in, uh, 1996, used to have all of his kids quote this every morning before homeschool. So it kind of stuck with me for the last 31 years. And almost every day we quote it together as a family, or we'll sort of popcorn where one person says part of it, then the next person. So it's kind of, kind of cool. But it is, it is one of the things we do at dinner when we're together.

I won't put you on the spot and have you do the whole thing right now, but what's your favorite verse or one of your favorite verses from Psalm 91?

Well, what I like to do with Psalm 91, because I really believe that faith and imagination are one and the same, so Psalm 91 is sort of like an action psalm. It talks about treading on serpents and scorpions. So, what I like to say or what I like to do is think about myself living it out. The best for me is, "He will give his angels charge over you to keep you in all your ways. They will bear you up in their hands so you don't dash your foot against a stone." So, I kind of picture myself falling off a cliff, angels catching me, and having a soft Superman-like landing. You know how Superman in the old days had his back foot kicked up and all that with the Christopher Reeve version?

Right. Maybe with the fist going down into the ground.

Yeah, maybe not that much. But yeah, that's more like, "I will tread upon the lion and the adder, the young lion and "The dragon will I trample underfoot." That's more of the violent kicking and punching part.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, yeah. I'm reading a book right now called "Experiencing Jesus" by John Eldredge, and he also has an app, like a guided prayer app that I just love. And, he actually in last night's reading was talking about how in some, I guess it would be almost like Jewish lore, serpents and scorpions would be associated with what a lot of people are talking about now maybe thanks to guys like Joe Rogan, the Nephilim, fallen angels, spirits, et cetera. So, it's almost as though that psalm would be like a protective prayer for going to battle against the spirits of the dark world.

Ben Greenfield: Well, yeah, it is funny you should mention that because, yeah, a lot of this has been happening to me as well. And, I'm in a men's prayer and Bible study group with my old high school friends, and I just read "Waking the Dead" and then we did "Wild at Heart" for the umpteenth time last month. So, yeah. So, we're John Eldredging it as well over here.

Ben Greenfield: He's been on the podcast. If you guys are listening, well, this is Jordan Rudin who I'm talking with right now. I haven't given Jordan an introduction yet, but I will shortly. John Eldredge is the other guy we're talking about. And, if you want some good devotionals, devotional apps, and you want a little bit, I guess, more of almost like a a mystical personal relationship with Jesus. I love his writings for just taking one out of the didactic and deep into the spiritual soulful experience of Jesus. So, highly recommend his stuff and I'll put a link to my interview with him in the shownotes. Jordan though is my guest today, 3-peat. Did you know this is the third time, Jordan?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So, our first one was about ducks and chickens and yaks and cows and eating locusts. And, we actually touched on Bible-based eating in that first podcast. And then, we did another one where you just basically fed me and the audience through the fire hose about how to start your own farm and grow your own food and grow crazy things on mushrooms and your insane productivity habits and your spiritual routines. So, this third time around, I was inspired to invite you because you finished this book with another former podcast guest and friend of mine, Dr. Josh Axe, the Biblio "Kimonodiet." I think the name kind of gives it away, a diet and lifestyle plan inspired by biblical principles. Just so those of you know, opening the kimono, Jordan and I had a phone call maybe 4 weeks ago and he was explaining to me some crazy things he's been studying up on and learning about fruit leaves of all things. And, I was so intrigued by that that I wanted to touch on that in today's show but also just cover some of the important principles in this book. Jordan is an OG in the industry. He's the founder of Garden of Life, Beyond Organic Ancient Nutrition. He is one of America's most recognized and respected natural health experts, New York Times bestselling author of over 30 books, and this latest one, "The Biblio Diet," is fantastic if you've ever wondered how to eat the way that perhaps God intended us to. So, Jordan, welcome back for the third time, man.

Thanks for having me. Excited.

Yeah. I want to jump right in to the thing that I don't want to run out of time to talk about and what, like I mentioned, got me most intrigued to interview you for this book, this whole idea of healing leaves, your entire chapter, Chapter 14, is about it. Tell me about your inspiration to, to get into this.

It's interesting that we talk about this now because, Ben, as you'll remember, when we were having our phone call, I said, this is not enough time to share with you the most powerful revelation I have ever received about health. And I say that because it is a big deal having overcome inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's colitis, and cancer, to now, after all that time, receive this revelation. Not to mention the fact that I, you, and so many of us have read the Bible back and forth, cover to cover, dozens— and I think I'm over 100 times— and yet it wasn't until 2019 when two powerful scriptures leapt off the pages and changed my life forever. And I believe changed my future forever, which is pretty amazing for a book that was written thousands of years ago.

All right. So I know we didn't have a lot of time in our phone call for you to cover this. I think we had 20 minutes and you were doing like the 2-year catch-up with me, but we have time right now. So tell me about these verses and the inspiration.

Yeah. So this is going to be in the area of mystical, as you called it earlier, if you're referring to certain writings. But my wife, Nikki, who by the way is a retired CPA— I'm setting the stage because she is not a forest-through-the-trees visionary by trade. However, God has gotten a hold of her and given her some pretty amazing, what she would refer to as downloads. And in the summer of 2018, so we're dating back, She tells me that she had a God idea. Now, she didn't say it was a prophecy. She didn't say it was a word from the Lord. She said it was a God idea. And she heard herself asking God a question: Is Jordan going to discover the cure for cancer and win a Nobel Prize? Now, Ben, I know what that sounds like.

Yeah, obviously, like, like half, half the internet snickers when they hear that because everybody says the cure for cancer. So you've got, you've got quite a defense to make.

Yes, I'm sharing it exactly as she said it. Now, what's interesting is she felt like this God idea happened 6 months prior to her sharing it with me, which was December of 2018. And when she did share it with me, my reaction was actually frustration, not jubilation. I mean, here I have this information from my wife who I trust immensely. If anyone's going to tell me God said anything, I have learned that Nikki is one who is very discerning and wise, and a lot of us should know that about our wives if we don't. So she says it to me, I'm frustrated. The reason I was frustrated, Ben, is that I was able to, through God's supernatural power and natural healing, conquer cancer myself in 2008 when I was given a 0% chance to live, not One, not two, zero. Like, the doctor said there's a 100% chance you'll be dead in 3 months if you don't undergo chemo and a very invasive surgery and possibly radiation. And I didn't, and God healed me. But before I get into that, let me finish the Healing Leaves message. So I'm frustrated because I have spent the better part of my life at this point in 2019 helping people overcome cancer, studying, researching, you name it. It has been a huge topic of mine, including overcoming cancer myself. So for me to hear that there's some cure for cancer, my immediate thought was, well, if it's a medicine, 99% of the world can't afford it or they're not insured. If it's an Amazonian rainforest herb, it's probably rare and most people can't afford it or procure it.

Or it's not sustainable environmentally.

Exactly. So I stopped thinking about it. And it wasn't until 4 months later, April 19th, I remember the day, 2019, I was in my sauna, which I call my prayer sauna or prayer closet. And so when I'm in my sauna, I often listen to the Bible on an app more than I read it. I don't want to sweat on the Bible, first of all, but it's just Great to be an audible learner, and I like to use technology for good whenever I can. So I'm listening to Ezekiel, which some would consider a boring book in the Old Testament, but it gets to Ezekiel in the 40s, and Ezekiel is describing a scene where there's a temple or a sanctuary. There's water coming from the temple. There's trees on both sides of the stream or river that the water forms. And I almost went multitask because I've heard this next verse so many times. Ezekiel 47:12, it says, "The fruit will be for food and the leaves for healing." Now, Ben, I've read herbal books that are not biblically based, and almost every one of them will quote this verse just as a quote-unquote proverb, you know, like an African proverb or an Indian proverb. And then they'll go on to say, therefore, since the leaves are for healing, you should consume spinach and parsley and kale.

You mean like, like basically interpreting it as eat salads and dark leafy greens?

Exactly. And over and over again when I've read this, and I'm talking about herbal OGs like Dr. James Duke and others who are not necessarily writing from a Christian perspective, they are just simply saying all cultures believe in leaves. Well, the truth of the matter is, because I have understood the difference between a perennial plant like a tree or a bush and an annual plant like a carrot or kale or spinach, where you plant it once, disrupt the soil, harvest it, etc., I immediately realized this isn't leaves that the Bible is talking about. This specifically is a leaf from a fruit tree. And as soon as that passage of scripture came out of the app into my ears, I felt God say with as audible of a voice as I have ever heard, "This is it." So, 4 months after my wife's God idea, I'm listening to Ezekiel 47:12, "The fruit will be for food and the leaves for healing." And I walk out of the sauna and I tell my wife, I said, "Nikki, I know my life's purpose." Because Ben, I immediately realized that the word that Nikki received, this answer for cancer, was not going to be found in a medicine or in an Amazonian superfood. It was found in one of the most ubiquitous, largely resourced, trash that people allow to be composted or pay to take off their property— fruit tree leaves. And I began to research the ancient Hebrew language to understand two things. One, what is a tree? Because would it only include bananas and apples, and did it have to be 30 feet tall? What about a bush? What about a vine? What about a shrub? And number two, and most importantly, The verse, or the word that says healing, could it be mistranslated? Because it says the fruit is for food and the leaves for healing. I've heard people mistranslate Bible quotes all the time. Now, this word, teru'fah or teru'pah, means healing, medicine, or cure. That is all it could mean. And here I am, someone who has written at the time, I want to say, 15 books on biblical nutrition, including The Maker's Diet. And I didn't realize that Ezekiel 47:12, and later in the Bible, Revelation 22:2, which says the leaves are for the healing of the nations— could this be more than spiritual allegory? Could this be a physical truth that has been hidden in plain sight? And Ben, I took it at the latter, and I began to study over 1,500 fruit trees and order fruit tree leaves from all over the world. And when I say order, I mean call a mango orchard and say, can I buy some leaves?

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Gee, I was going to say, is there like a fruittreeleaf.com or are you just basically organically hunting these down?

Oh, hunting them down. Because what was interesting is that out of the top 25 herbs and spices, zero would be fruit tree leaves. This is literally thrown away, cast aside, ignored, but yet I believe it unlocks the key to cancer. Longevity, and 68 other conditions or systems of the body that I've studied. And I began to procure these leaves. First, I was laughed at calling a mango orchard to bug them about buying some fruit tree leaves, which aren't for sale because they're composted or hauled off. And them sending me a FedEx envelope with some napkins in between these big green leaves was interesting enough. But I started to put this message to work, and because in Revelation 22:2 it says the Tree of Life, which contains 12 fruits, the leaves are for the healing of the nations, I combined 12 fruit tree leaves. Some are very familiar, some are exotic, and I made what you would call a tea or a decoction. But because there's no green, black, or white tea, It's more specifically called an herbal infusion. And, that's what I did and I noticed, Ben, even though I am blessed to be healthy now, I noticed some subtle improvements in joints, in skin, but it got really exciting when I was faced with a young man sitting in front of me in Kenya. He was from the Netherlands. Asking me to pray for him as he was battling terminal cancer. He had a sarcoma of the femur. He was 6'2", 110 pounds, I'm guessing, wasting away, lost his hair, looked as white as a ghost. And in my carnal mind, or I'll say in the natural, I believed I would pray for this boy and if he didn't do something drastically different, he was going to die. I've seen it dozens of times before. He was wasting away, emaciated, and when I prayed with him and his parents, he was in tears, and then he offered a simple prayer that was a combination of weeping and screaming, where he yelled out, "God, help me!" And I got to tell you, Ben, I've said a lot of long prayers in my life, But I may have never heard the most sincere, desperate prayer, which were 3 words: "God, help me." Now, I want to fast forward a little bit because this story gets really interesting. But I felt led to not only pray for this young man, but as his parents asked me, "Can I help him with his health?" even though I was fighting thoughts of, they live in the Netherlands, I'm in the United States. Do they have the products I would recommend? Do they have the foods? Can they even get my book? But all of that seemed to work out. And over WhatsApp, in the course of, I want to say, 90 to 120 days, this young man went from emaciated and sick, undergoing chemotherapy, to telling the oncologist they are quitting chemotherapy and God's going to heal them. And by the way, the oncologist said, we've heard this many times before, and everyone who said it is dead. They said, you are committing suicide. And they said to his parents— his name was Jethro— his parents, they said, you are killing your son if you go off conventional treatment and you come back to us, which you will. We likely can't save your leg or save your life. And I'll spare all the amazing details for time's sake, but over the course of 90 to 120 days, Jethro was healed, healthy and whole, cancer-free. And in an amazing twist of, I'll say, destiny, ended up becoming a foreign exchange student living with me in Tennessee during COVID You can picture all this. He left at 6'4", 200 pounds, ready to share his story with the world. And, um, it's just an exciting testament to believing God's word, believing in his creation, that he gave us everything we need for healing. And Ben, the craziest part, he was the second person perhaps ever other than me to consume what I now call healing leaves, and his doctors who once said he was committing suicide said they have never seen a result like this before, where his PET scan was lit up like a Christmas tree with metastatic cancer and a tumor in his leg the size of a baseball, now cancer-free. And I have since shared it with about 40 to 50 others, and really today We're sharing it with the world and soon in the Biblio Diet. And, uh, I have made a decision to devote a big portion of my life to getting this message out there because ultimately, Ben Greenfield, healing leaves taste like black tea or green tea. The poorest people in the world have the greatest access to fruit tree leaves. Most people have them in their backyard or their local forest. And There's no 12 leaves that you need. Any 12 leaves from fruit trees will do. And I have seen first and secondhand miracles from consuming this beverage that I hope will be on everybody's kitchen table, everybody's morning routine, everyone's pantry and cupboard. And best of all, if you're someone who calls on the name of the Lord and believes He is your Savior, then this is going to glorify God in a huge way. So, I am beyond excited, and that's why I made a personal call to you and said, Ben, I really would be honored if we could share this with your audience because you have shared many amazing biohacks, many amazing remedies, superfoods, and supplements, but I can tell you there is nothing on earth that God calls the healing of the nations other than fruit tree leaves. And, for that reason plus some pretty cool science, I'm going to shout it from the rooftops every chance I get.

Ben Greenfield: I have so many questions. And honestly, I don't care if we don't get to any other part of the book except this. I definitely want to focus in on this because I think it's the most unique thing that you and I have talked about recently. Let's put the science hats on and talk about the proposed mechanism of action behind this? What is going on biochemically in terms of the composition of a fruit leaf that makes you suspect that it's having some type of an anti-cancer or a cytotoxic effect to cancer cells?

Ben Greenfield: Well, it's a great question. And fortunately, there has been some data on fruit tree leaves even though there has been a lot less than turmeric and ashwagandha and all of these cool herbs that people are so excited about. But if you look into fruit tree leaves, most of them contain 60 to 300 different compounds, and some of them are more familiar than others, by the way. Uh, and I'm not talking about orange, apple, and banana only. This is expanded to nuts. It's expanded to fruits that only natives have consumed that are not commonly commercialized. So I'm literally talking about oak trees, walnut trees, hazelnut trees, cuz nuts are fruits as well, along with aronia berries and things like persimmon and pawpaw. I call them America's forgotten superfoods. Of course, soursop or graviola, which has been a little bit popular for its anti-cancer benefits. What about olive and grape? But to answer your question, in the leaves, you find compounds that are antimicrobial, antiparasitic, fungal, viral, and bacterial. They lower blood sugar, they boost immunity and reduce inflammation with all of the nutrients found in fruits and none of the sugar. And some of these include ellagic acid and other ellagitannins. So we've heard of urolithin A, and there's other urolithins. Ellagic acid found in walnut leaf, raspberry leaf, and pomegranate leaf, along with many berry leaves, contributes to health in many ways. Number one, and in no particular order, it helps balance blood sugar by shuttling glucose into muscles and out of circulation to prevent insulin insensitivity and body fat deposition. So It is a muscle booster.

I may interrupt you a few times as you go through this, but it sounds to me— so far I've heard two things, Jordan. The first is that it sounds like you're a believer in the terrain hypothesis of cancer, that when you say something is antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, controls mold, mycotoxins, et cetera, that one of the reasons that people get cancer is because their internal environment is ridden with virus, bacteria, mold, fungi, et cetera. Essentially, they've weakened their ability to be able to fight off cancer due to a poor terrain. Am I following you correctly on that?

I believe that that is definitely a component. And in fact, I think all of those areas, inflammation, weakened immune system, and certainly microbial imbalance. And in fact, I think you and I and many others have seen a litany of testimonials for those who are undergoing cancer treatment or a cancer diagnosis they're battling using traditional antiparasitic, which are really immune-modulating, off-market drugs like ivermectin and mebendazole, and even the animal or veterinarian, uh, dewormer fenbendazole. And fruit tree leaves actually contain similar benefits to animals and humans as those antiparasitics. And in fact, Ben, we give fruit tree leaves to our water buffalo, cattle, to our sheep, and to our goats in lieu of dewormers. So there's absolutely that component. And ellagitannins, one compound in fruit tree leaves, can be not only contributory to balancing blood sugar but also they in, in and of themselves can be antiparasitic and antifungal. But also ellagic tannins or ellagic acid can cause apoptosis in cancer cells, which is natural programmed killing or programmed cell death. So in cell lines, ellagic acid from walnut, raspberry, and pomegranate can cause a destruction of cancer cells.. And this is just the beginning. I mentioned oak trees. Ben, you might not know this, but quercetin, which is a powerful flavonoid, is not only found in fruit tree leaves, but it was named after its inclusion in oak tree leaves, which is of the Quercus genus. So, oaks are Quercus this or Quercus that depending on if it's a red oak, a white oak, et cetera. So quercetin is another compound. And really the list goes on and on. There's chlorogenic acid, caffeic acid, gallic acid. There's hydroxytyrosol in olive leaves. There's oleuropein and other compounds. The list goes on and on. And what's great about fruit tree leaves is that there are common phytonutrients in similar fruit tree leaves, but there's also very unique compounds that you would find in a mango leaf that you wouldn't find in a blueberry leaf. However, odds are if you combine 12 fruit tree leaves that are somewhat dissimilar, meaning you don't want to have all stone fruits like apricot, peach, cherry, plum, because they're going to have more similar compounds You want variety if at all possible, and that's what we've done on our farms and in the BiblioDiet, particularly Chapter 14, Healing Leaves, which you're referring to. We give people a list of leaves. We help people forage for leaves because, Ben, you're going to hopefully get off this podcast/treadmill and you would find 12 leaves on your property through a little plant finder or herb finder app and you could be drinking healing leaves in an hour if not making healing leaves kombucha, which would take a little longer.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. I actually want to ask you about this whole idea of 12 leaves. But before I do, the second thing I was going to say related to the onset of cancer and mechanism of actions that based on the insulin-sensitizing aspects of some of these leaves, I'm guessing you also believe in this metabolic theory of cancer that that cancer cells particularly engage in hefty glucose utilization and lactic acid production, and that by somehow limiting the amount of glucose available to cancer cells or improving insulin sensitivity, we might be able to control that. Hence why there's so many recommendations for people who have cancer to limit glucose, sugar, and starches and consider even more of a ketogenic approach.

Absolutely. And, what's great, Ben, is that by consuming fruit tree leaf tea prior to a meal, it severely restricts postprandial glucose increase, which is simply saying if you wear a CGM and you test your blood after a meal, if you've consumed Healing Leaves tea, if you want to call it that, you will have a blunted blood sugar spike and you're going to get all those other benefits that we already mentioned. It is amazing for metabolism. Would be amazing for weight loss. And I think, as crazy as this sounds, calling it an answer to cancer only greatly restricts its utility because I've seen 3 people in the last few months drink strictly mulberry leaf tea, and that's one of our favorite healing leaves of the Bible. They have either reduced or completely eliminated insulin and these are long-term— I don't like to say diabetics because I don't like to label people, but people who are battling diabetes over the long term. And two of them had a mulberry tree or bush in their backyard. They literally went in their backyard, pulled leaves off a tree, put them in water, heated it up, consumed it every day, and now they are either off or on a greatly reduced insulin intake.

Amazing. Ben Greenfield: And, I like that it's kind of cheap. I get called out a lot for the, "Ben, I got to buy a $100,000 hyperbaric cold infusion hydrogen unit to pull this off." So, planting trees is not expensive. It's still beyond what a lot of people like to do, which is just pop pills. But, you've got a couple of the practical things that you mentioned. You said 12 leaves. Are you saying that I need to go to 12 different fruit trees and select 12 different leaves and combine them. Are you saying each time I make tea, I just use 12 leaves of whatever tree?

It's a great question. I believe there's more power in the 12 different fruit tree leaves because again, if you look at Revelation 22:2, it's similar to Ezekiel. It talks about a sanctuary, a river, but in this case, it talks about the Tree of Life. And Ben, for us Bible geeks, the Tree of Life was meant to provide eternal longevity. And listen, a lot of our friends and colleagues are trying to live to 120 or beyond. But when Adam and Eve sinned and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden, you probably remember there were cherubim that guarded the Tree of Life. So that man could not reach his hand out and live forever. That is right out of scripture. I can also tell you another time how the fall of man, or man's sin, is causing the destruction of our planet. And what some refer to as climate change is all part of that curse of man, and we are in the process of proving that that can be, uh, reversed through—

let—

I'll say this is going to sound heavy to some of your listeners, but the blood of Jesus and him taking those keys back and reversing that curse. So I am walking proof and living proof that we can rebuild our bodies and the planet, and it's kind of in the same methodology of planting these fruit trees. And that's exactly what we've done. But to answer your question, I prefer 12 different fruit tree leaves like Revelation 22:2 mentions because there are 12 fruits on the Tree of Life. And I do think you'll get benefits from consuming 1 or 2 leaves. But when I work with people, and it's almost always severely ill people, I recommend 12 different fruit tree leaves. And I've been making this for people from my own leaves for the last several years. So that I think is the most powerful array of phytonutrients or phytochemicals in those 12 fruit tree leaves.

Okay. So, for a guy like me because I live on 12 acres, I've already got cherry peach, apple. Yeah, cherry peach, apple, and pear. And, I could take my PlantSnap app on my phone, I could walk around and look at a few other plants, identify whether or not they would fit into the category of trees. Let's say I identify 8 more. So, I'm harvesting those leaves and systematically kind of creating this tea on a daily basis. And, I want to talk about the tea shortly, but let's say somebody lives in a highly urban environment. Is there a place that they could go, and let's say they don't want herbicides and pesticides and crap on their leaves where they could literally just order leaves of 12 different kinds?

Yeah. You would want to go to one of those herbal companies. There's Mountain Rose Herbs, there's Starwest. These are kind of bulk herb companies. And you can piece that together. Uh, unsurprisingly, Ben, because I planted 600,000 fruit trees, we are working on creating products out of healing leaves and have been for years. They're not currently available, but, um, if someone wants more information on the types of leaves we recommend and perhaps where to find them, the BiblioDiet book will have it, and it's available for order However, we are giving away, Ben, that Chapter 14 you referenced for free to anyone who wants to log on to thebibliodiet.com. So, we have a download of Chapter 14, Healing Leaves. It's free and it'll give a little more insight into the benefits, the health conditions that we believe healing leaves can help you fight. And some of our top leaves to find. But if you do a simple search, you can find a majority of fruit tree leaves from strawberry to blackberry to blueberry, to bilberry, to soursop, and many other species. But in your case, Ben Greenfieldfield, and I have not been to your home, I'm guessing you also have some evergreens, perhaps like juniper, which is from the cedar family, and pine. Many species of pine produce fruit. Juniper produces berries. Those two are amazing additions to healing leaves even though their leaves are less leaf-like and more needle-like.

Ben Greenfield: Okay, got it. You mentioned this tea. So, let's say I get my leaves and I'm going to make this tea. What's the best way to make the tea? And remember, we're talking to people who don't have 2 hours in the kitchen. They want the fastest, easiest way to consume these things.

Easiest way is to just make it like a loose leaf tea where you put the leaves, and I— the ratio that I recommend is usually 1 tablespoon of dried leaves for each of the 12. Grab a pot, I would like to say a 2.5-quart pot, but think of a pot where you make spaghetti. So you're gonna fill it with water, you're gonna put either a tablespoon of each of 12 leaves or more if they're fresh. The dried leaves will crunch into about 12 tablespoons. Don't worry if you overdo it, no big deal. And you want to bring the water to a boil with the leaves in it, pour it through a colander after you let it simmer for a little bit. And I make 2 weeks at a time, so I literally will go in with a big old stock pot and I will fill it to the top with lots of water and leaves I will bring it to a boil. I will simmer it for 12 minutes. I'll let it cool down, and then I fill Ben Greenfield's 8 half-gallon jars with it. And that's where I pour my healing leaves and my family's every day for 2 weeks. Now, if you want it even simpler, just put leaves in a glass, boil some water, pour it over the glass or mug where the leaves are. Wait a few minutes till it gets to be a tolerable temperature and drink it just like you would tea.

That doesn't sound too hard. Not too hard. Especially if you do it as a batch. You said dried though. So, if I go and harvest all these leaves, can I just lay them out in the sun on a towel? Do you use a food dehydrator, an oven at low temperature? Does it matter?

Any of the above. So, Jethro, who is the young man who overcame cancer, when I started working with him, it was September. In the Netherlands. He went to an orchard, picked a bunch of leaves, and dried them in his oven with a pilot light on low. And then they went and bought a food dehydrator. You could do— not pilot light, pilot setting— but you can do any of the above. Obviously, if you want to dry them outside, make sure it's truly dry, and you're gonna maybe have some insects around, but it should be minimal. They don't attract bugs the way fruit or anything sweet would, but any of those ways would be fine. And in the summer, which we're talking right now in the summer, while you've got a few more days of growing time where you are in the Pac Northwest, you can just pick them off the trees and put them right into the water and boil them. But yes, save some for the winter. It will be well worth it.

Alright, BenGreenfieldLife.com/Biblio. I'll link to the book, my other podcast with Jordan, some of these recommendations. B-I-B-L-I-O. Jordan, can we talk about some other parts of your book?

Yes, how about The Wisest Meal on Earth? That will debunk some major health myths. The wisest meal on earth. There's 3 amazing revelations that I had since I've written the other biblical health books that for some reason were hidden from me. And I remember I was walking on my farm in Tennessee. And I said to Todd, our farm director, as we were talking about the new BiblioDiet project, which I was working on, I said, you know, Todd, I think there's a chapter in the Bible that talks about exactly what King Solomon ate every day. So I went back and sure enough, 1 Kings chapter 4 lists out Solomon's daily provisions. Now, Solomon, for those of you who don't know, was King David's son and known by God as the wisest man who ever lived and the richest man who ever lived. In fact, historically, it was said that all the kings of the world sat at the feet of Solomon and were amazed at his knowledge of science and humans and the world. So this is a man who was given so much wisdom. He knew about plant life, animal life, and humans. And what he ate every day with all the money in the world, literally, yeah, people came and brought him riches and treasures. And I think they've estimated his wealth as a quadrillionaire. It's more than anyone has today.

People could take the deep rabbit hole dive down Google and Reddit on this. Like, apparently he had ships going all the way to South America, and we find like Hebrew inscriptions in like the Amazon. And so, he was likely bringing stuff from all over the world like cinnamon, gold, myrrh, frankincense, like you name it from probably one of the busiest shipping routes at his time.

Ben Greenfield: Yes. And, he had an inner circle or a court that ate with him every day. And, what he was feeding them and consuming was primarily meat, and bread.

You just like isolated and offended two big, big groups of the dogmatic nutrition world—

meat and bread. Yes. So some people have said for a long time that meat will kill you and kill the planet because cows are emitting greenhouse gases and all the other stuff. And then of course now there's a pretty thriving carnivore-eating community that says plants are trying to kill you.

Plants include— including bread.

Including bread. And then others that don't think plants are trying to kill you think bread's trying to kill you, and they've written books like Wheat Belly and Grain Brain. So I'm not arguing that the research done by these doctors doesn't have a little bit of merit or a lot of merit, but what I don't argue is that the word of God trumps science. And in this case, King Solomon ate grass-fed cattle. And I'm gonna chap some more boots, Ben. He ate stall-fed cattle. Now, I'm not saying they were confinement animals that were injected with hormones and antibiotics and fed glyphosate-rich grain, but they were fed in a stall. Whether it was hay or grain or herbs, I don't know. Grass-fed cattle, stall-fed cattle, meal and flour— that would be grain and bread— and choice fowl, as well as wild deer and roebuck. And it didn't say he ate this occasionally. These were Solomon's daily provisions. But while I'm at it, I believe that meat is one of the quintessential biblical superfoods, particularly red meat, because any time anyone could afford it or any time anyone had an esteemed guest, they killed what was known as the fatted calf, which would have been an intact bull between 4 to 6 years of age. And Ben, here's something else that'll blow your mind. That intact bull where they consumed the meat called the fatted calf would have provided actual testosterone and testosterone precursors to men and women, contributing to fertility and youth.

You mean in the actual meat, like you don't have to eat the testicles?

In the actual meat. And I have is it getting down a little bit of a— I'll call it a water buffalo trail, not a rabbit trail. But I have a son who plays college football, and for an entire offseason, I fed him only food from water buffalo. We raise water buffalo, and I had a couple of mature bulls slaughtered, butchered, and prepared. And the— he ate 2 pounds a day of water buffalo bull meat, and he gained in one offseason 65 pounds. Now, some people on the call don't want to gain 65 pounds, but the point is—

I'm assuming that's both fat mass and fat-free mass.

It was all of it, but his strength went up 25%, record numbers. You just wouldn't believe it. He went in as a freshman as arguably the strongest player up against 6th-year college students with a COVID year. And my son— I have one biological son and 5 adopted children. My son's genetics from myself and Nikki involve probably a 12-inch vertical leap and not a whole lot of body mass. So, uh, I'm just giving— yeah, just giving you an example that if you look into scripture, into the Bible, you don't have to look so deep to find some of the greatest longevity-boosting, health-promoting secrets known to man. And if you think people look the same way in the Bible as they do today, you're wrong because obesity was so rare that it was mentioned every time someone was fat or obese. They called it out in the Bible because it was so abnormal.

Yeah, I noticed that. It seems a little rude, but yeah, they do. Famous for all time and the best-selling book of all time for being fat.

Exactly. The king of Eglon had apparently rolls that when he was stabbed with a sword, you couldn't even see the butt of the sword because of his fat rolls. And then, uh, there is a couple of other references like Eli, who was the priest before Samuel. He leaned back in a chair and they said he was so fat the chair broke. But outside of that, it was very rare.

We should clarify though, being fat is not synonymous with eating fat, because throughout the Bible you find that, uh, God blesses people with fat of land with honey, with milk, with bread. So, nutrition and diet enrichment is often something that is a reward from God. It's the overconsumption of it, the crossing over into gluttony, which becomes an issue. But, the idea that there's not a lot of obesity in the Bible doesn't mean that eating fat is bad. And, in fact, fat's kind of considered a blessing in the Bible.

Ben Greenfield: Well, then my revelation number 3, which didn't even make it in the Biblio Diet because the book was already written, this literally happened 3 weeks ago and I mean, how somebody could read through the Bible consistently like I have for 15 years and miss anything related to food is beyond me. But this is so cool. Job, who was a man in the Bible that predated Moses and some of the other biblical luminaries, he was stricken with poverty. He went from being a wealthy, blessed man to losing his wealth. He lost his children and he lost his health. And towards the end of Job in chapter 29, Job is talking to God in the longest conversation ever recorded between God and man. Amazing. It'll give you chills. Read the end of Job. God literally talks about his creation and says more or less, Job, how dare you talk to me like this? I created the stars, the sky, the animals. I know where thunder is made and the factories where lightning is stored. Anyway, so cool. But this is how Job describes his previous prime of life. Ben Greenfield, he said, in the prime of my life, cream poured out on the streets and olive oil welled out from a stone. So I believe that if Job described the prime of his life as a wealthy, blessed man, being bathed and having all kinds of access to cream and olive oil, you better believe I want those two foods in my diet every day. The idea that our ancestors didn't eat a lot of meat and didn't eat a lot of fat is just not true. The only reason people wouldn't eat meat and fat is if they couldn't procure it, hunt it, or afford it. Period. End of story. Everybody throughout history goes for the fattiest, most nutrient-dense animal foods above all else.

Yeah, comma, they also fasted a lot. Sure did. With the wisest meal on earth. So you said it was meat, milk, and what was the third one?

It was meat, bread, and poultry.

Sorry, meat, bread. Okay, got it. What about the whole idea, like back to the elephant in the room, like the leaves and the fruits? Obviously you said the leaves are for healing. But then, it does say in that verse that the fruits are for food. Do we find that Solomon placed any emphasis on berries, pomegranates, mangoes, some of these fruits that seem to have a lot of pretty nutrient-dense properties?

I can't confirm that Solomon did, but we know that David, we know that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and many biblical, I'll say, ancestors consumed fruits like olive, grape, figs, dates, pomegranate. In fact, Ben, this is so cool. Pomegranate was known as the royal fruit of the Bible back in biblical times, and the average pomegranate contains 613 seeds or arils. You know, those little delicious seeds with juicy fruit around them.

Yeah, I, I believe you. I haven't counted them, but I believe you.

That is the same number of commandments in the Old Testament of the Bible. How How amazing is that? What are the odds?

Ben Greenfield: Huh, that's interesting. Okay. So, kind of the thing I'm asked a lot because it's no secret, I talk on the podcast, I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible. And then, people say, "Well, you eat pork and shellfish because I see you talking about Seatopia shrimp on your website and you occasionally show your wife's bone-in reverse sear pork chop recipe." I think you probably know where I'm coming from, Jordan. I say, well, you can get clean versions of that stuff now like pastured pork and shellfish that's been screened. But, with you having written so much about the Bible-based diet, and I don't even remember if we talked about this last time or not, we might have. What's the deal with pork and shellfish?

Well, Ben, you know that I want to be a gracious guest on your program and try not to disagree with you.

Yeah, I don't care if you offend me and my diet.

Tell me straight up. I think pork and shellfish and any derivatives of that should be avoided at all costs. That's how I've lived my life. And I remember, Ben, when I first was introduced to the concept of eating the way the Bible says, I read a book called God's Key to Health and Happiness by Reverend Elmer Josephson. This was one of 3 books I read in 1996 that changed my life forever. And Reverend Josephson was diagnosed with terminal stomach cancer. He was a pastor, he was a God-fearing man and dedicated his life to serving God. And he more or less yelled at God with his terminal diagnosis and said, God, you promised me in your word to live a long and abundant life. Why am I dying? And Elmer Josephson heard God's voice say, because you haven't followed my commandments.. And Elmer Josephson read Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, which said pork and shellfish— I'm, I'm going to paraphrase— are detestable the same way human excrement and filth would be detestable. And he ceased eating pork and shellfish. His book details how he was cured of stomach cancer, and he tried to spend the rest of his life telling others that God's Commandments are the same yesterday, today, and forever. They may not determine your salvation. In fact, the old joke is, you can— can you eat pork and shellfish and still get to heaven? Some of us might say yes, and you'll get there a lot sooner. But I do believe, Ben, understanding a lot about regenerative farming— I've done it for nearly 20 years— the anatomy of a pig as a monogastric just like a rat, a skunk, a dog, or a cat, is not able to detoxify properly, not able to metabolize nutrients. And the idea that you can have a pig eat healthy things would mean 24/7 surveillance because a pig will eat tumors off of other pigs. And I always used to say this and it freaked people out. Elmer Josephson, in the book God's Key to Health and Happiness, observed an experiment where there were 4 pigs stacked vertically in cages and they only fed the top pig and the others did just fine. I'll let you fill in the blanks. Same thing for shellfish. There are so many amazing meats and fish to eat. If you're somebody listening and you're following a paleo diet or a keto diet or carnivore diet or an omnivorous diet and you have not avoided pork and shellfish, you may benefit from doing so because of the toxins, microorganisms, and more. And this is where, Ben, I disagree with people from the Weston A. Price Foundation, a lot of the, I'll say, evolutionary diet experts. And it's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. But you don't think that like with Levitical law based around hygiene that in an era of modern hygiene, some of those things are no longer applicable? I don't want to be gross, but if a woman is on her period, you'd have to send her out of the village or the camp or whatever for a week because she's unclean. And now, we've got modern hygiene and tampons, things like that. And, in the case of pigs and shellfish, couldn't we just get cleaner versions of them and the law that was once meant for good hygiene would no longer really be something we need to follow from a ceremonial standpoint?

I do not believe so. I believe based on science that shellfish, for example, are the best purifiers of polluted waterways because they store toxins. People say, but oysters are high in metals. I just was on a podcast in Phoenix yesterday, and maybe it was the day before, and I really upset the host because she believes oysters are a great source of minerals. And I would agree, but the minerals include cadmium, mercury, lead, and arsenic. So Ben, I do not believe that this particular principle in scripture can be changed or improved based on hygiene. Believe me, I can go into details on a woman's uncleanness. I can explain that, and there's some cool elements to that as well, believe me, with fertility. But I do not believe that pork and shellfish are suitable to eat the same way I don't believe dogs, cats, and skunks are. But for some reason, people look the other way when it comes to pork because they don't want to give up their bacon. And I might be one of the only quote-unquote health experts that is pounding this drum, but for me and my house, we will not touch pork and shellfish. And it's not for spiritual reasons, it's not a kosher thing. They are not suitable for human consumption based on anatomy and physiology. And I've seen too many people cut those things out and get better to believe otherwise.

Really interesting. Well, I'm a big self-quant guy and it wouldn't be a huge sacrifice for me because right now, to be honest, totally honest, I have pork about once a month, I have shellfish about once a month. So, I could cut it out and take labs and maybe see how I do over 6 months. I'm game to try it. Okay. I want to lightning round a few of the things at you, Jordan, because I know we're running slightly short on time but I want to touch on these. Milk, not all milk is created equal. Knowing what you know, having been in the industry as long as you've been in it, obviously milk is encouraged in the Bible. What kind of milk would be the healthiest for people to drink or to give to their kids and their family?

The healthiest milk that you can find easily would be an A2 milk that is grass-fed and organic, preferably non-homogenized. That is available, Ben, everywhere including Costco, which is unbelievable to me. I'm so thrilled about that, but that's sort of the best milk that someone who wants to go to a store can buy. Now, if you want to know the best, the best milk on the planet or dairy products, I would consume an A2 raw grass-fed organic dairy from an animal that produces milk that is naturally homogenized. And metabolizes all of the carotenoids. Now, I know you love sciency things, so I'm going to throw that all out at you. But what I mean is raw milk from water buffalo, goat, or sheep. Now, we know that cow's milk that's raw, which can be really good, the cream separates, it rises to the top, and it turns yellow when the cows are eating grass in season because of the carotenoids. The reason being cows don't metabolize carotenoids very well. But a goat, sheep, or water buffalo— I raise them, so I know— when they eat only pasture, grasses, herbs, legumes, and forbs, they produce naturally homogenized milk. The fat globules are very small and absorbable, and the milk is always white, even when they're eating June spring pastures. It's because they naturally metabolize the carotenoids, and I believe you're getting downstream metabolites from these powerful components. So that would be the best-case scenario. It's what I do primarily. I want to say this though, milk is a superfood in its right form, or it could be a toxic plethora of junk if you eat skim— I call it blue milk— skim milk that has been fortified, pasteurized, homogenized, even though it's skim, which is ridiculous, and has all these traces of antibiotics and hormones.

Yeah, A2 grass-fed everything aside, the multiple studies show the majority of health benefits from dairy consumption come from full-fat, not skim or fat-free. So that alone is important to know. That wasn't too, too lightning round.

Yeah, I know.

I'm not a lightning guy. I know. You're such a depth of knowledge. I was reading on GreenMedInfo, Sayer Ji. He puts out some pretty good information, but he did a pretty big takedown article on bread yesterday calling out not just gluten but lectin, herbicides, pesticides, opiates, the things that you've heard before. But Jordan, let's say someone wrote an article like that, yet they still said, "But if you can find the right kind of grain," you could skirt some of those issues. So, if you were going to buy bread or get grain to make bread, what would you choose as your top go-to?

My favorite bread is sourdough that is long-term fermented made from an unhybridized grain like einkorn. And, for those of you who haven't heard of einkorn, it's E-I-N-K-O-R-N. It's not anything to do with corn, the plant or grain. Einkorn is a biblical grain. It has never been hybridized, which means it's lower in gluten, higher in non-gluten proteins, and less likely to cause allergies. Now, we have bred all the wrong qualities into cows that produce milk and into wheat and so— and barley and other grains. So I consume sourdough bread. And by the way, Ben, I had Crohn's and colitis, one of the worst cases documented in history, and part of my recovery was raw cream and sourdough whole grain bread.

So crazy, because most doctors say you shouldn't even be sniffing that stuff.

Nope. So I do think— and you don't have to eat it. I mean, listen, uh, Seher is a very close friend of mine and colleague, and I don't disagree that modern bread that you get in a grocery store is horrible, but But the sourdough craze is on, and if you can make your own sourdough bread or buy it at a specialty or health food store, even people with gluten sensitivity can often tolerate it because the sourdough or fermentation process eliminates the gluten, virtually lowers the gliadin content, which is causing the opioid effect that you are referring to. It doesn't have glyphosate. And it is actually a great source of energy and nutrients. But, you want to consume white bread, I'll tell you the whiter the bread, the sooner you're dead because it is total garbage and you can leave it on your patio for 50 years.

Ben Greenfield: I'll give a shout-out to Dr. Jeffrey Bland, Father of Functional Medicine. He's doing some cool stuff with Himalayan tartare buckwheat. That's another one that I found I do just fine with. And, my wife uses a— I think it's a local red berry kind of ancient unhybridized grain for our sourdough at home. And then, we've got milk or goat. So, you're making me happy, Jordan. Alright, last one. People hear about the Bible and they think honey. It's found all over in Proverbs, for example, and throughout the Old Testament. Let's say somebody's going to do honey. I'm assuming it's not the plastic teddy bear off the grocery store shelf, but what would you pick if you were going to throw honey in there along with the bread and the milk and the, uh, and the red meat, for example.

You're getting all of us hungry, Ben. I like to say this: when it comes to honey for culinary use or as a sweetener, look for unheated or raw and unfiltered. Those are the terms you want to look for. Ideally, the honey crystallizes a bit when you leave it at room temperature, which means that it hasn't been ultra-heated. If you want a therapeutic honey I like honey that is from New Zealand. You've probably heard of Manuka honey.

I love Manuka. I have the— we had a sponsor for a while and I've still got a pantry full of stuff. Manukora honey. It's so good.

Absolutely. And probably my favorite, Melipona honey, which is found in South America. It's in Costa Rica, Central America. Those are made by stingless small bees, and that honey can be used used as an eye drop to treat eye infections. It's great for upper respiratory infections. It is a very cool super honey and it never thickens. So those are examples. I've also tried a Madagascar honey, Ben, that is off the charts amazing, but you want unheated and unfiltered and you can use it as a sweetener. It's almost miraculous as a topical wound healer and it is literally a medicine cabinet. We talk all about honey, milk, bread, even salt we didn't cover in the Biblio Diet, because if the Bible says something's good, I want to know why, and I want to teach people how to acquire the food and how to consume the food. Because after all, Ben, my two principles here are: eat what God created for food, number one, and number two, eat food in a form that is healthy for the body. If you can do that, your nutrition will absolutely contribute to amazing health.

I love it. And yeah, you've got cancer-fighting nutrition like we talked about— meats, veggies, fruit, dairy, spices, salts, oils. We didn't even crack into fasting and some of the daily eating plans in there. But the book, for those of you watching, is "The Biblio Diet." I'll link to that, my other podcast with Jordan, his website, everything at BenGreenfieldLife.com. /Biblio, B-I-B-L-I-O, where you can leave your questions, your comments, your feedback. Jordan, I love talking to you, man. I always learn, I would say, at least 5 new things every time we chat.

Well, I appreciate it, Ben. And, I know that there are so many amazing technologies out there. I see some behind you and I incorporate a lot of cool hacks and biohacks, but I never allow myself to get too far away from the Creator and what He gave for our longevity, our metabolism, our pain, our brain health, and of course, fighting a disease that's cost us too many lives and too many loved ones and too many precious hours. And that's my passion, is really to see the planet healed, people fed, and disease eradicated.

Keep up the great work, brother. I love you.

Thank you, buddy. Thanks for having me.

All right, folks. I'm Ben Greenfield along with the great Jordan Rubin signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com. Have an incredible week.

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