Do THIS To Eliminate Toe Pain & Walk Stronger With More Confidence (& The SECRET SAUCE For Banishing Bunions!) With Foot Specialist Dr. Emily Splichal

My name is Ben Greenfield. And on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

I cannot do a complete bunion assessment without looking at X-rays because I have to measure that angle between the first and the second metatarsal. And that, that is a subtle but very important distinction because then that helps to understand, well, are bunions reversible? Can I reverse a bunion with exercises, toe spacers conservatively, or can I only reverse a bunion through surgery?

Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life?

Let's do this. Hey, if you're listening in and you have feet, this is going to be a pretty important podcast episode for you. My guest on this show is somebody who's been on the show before. She is somebody who appeared on an episode called "Barefoot Strong: Unlock the Secrets to Movement Longevity." As you can guess, as the name implies, we talked all about her role as a functional podiatrist and human movement specialist, especially when it comes to your feet because they're so important for everything else that happens from the bottom up. Her name is Emily Spleckle. Did I do that right, Emily? Did I say your last name right?

You did.

You did. Nailed it. Alright, cool. And, you guys should definitely listen to my first episode with Emily, which I'll put at BenGreenfieldLife.com/DrEmily. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/DrEmily. But, she's basically a human movement specialist, a podiatrist, big leader in the realm of foot science and rehabilitation, and also movement in general. She has a really good eye for movement dysfunction, for neuromuscular control, for gait improvement, and for fixing up your feet. She's originally trained as a surgeon at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. And, Now, she just basically teaches people how to fix their feet and beyond. So, Emily, welcome back to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be back.

Yeah. And in our last podcast, obviously, we talked a lot about the feet. So, right now, as we're about to start this show, check this out. You actually can't see what I'm on, but I'm going to be curious if you've heard about this. So, I'm going to start walking while I'm talking to you because I've been walking a lot more during my podcast. And I'm on this surface that's like this soft foam kind of treadmill. It's called a, a Walkolution. Have you seen this thing before?

I actually know the company. They had spoken to us about putting the BOSU on it. So yes, I do know that company well.

Okay. So explain to me what that would mean, putting the BOSU on it.

Yes. So the, the walking treadmills or the standing desk treadmills are actually one of the best things that you could be doing because we were designed to move. We are not designed to sit and we're not designed to stand. So the, the act of being static or stasis in one place is really where we start to get stress on our body. So walking at a very slow pace, which is what you're doing, so you could still have a conversation or do work, is actually how your fascial system and your nervous system was designed. We are designed to move. So imagine if you were barefoot with the Noboso material across that on top of the treadmill and you would be stimulating your nerves and strengthening your muscles, waking up your brain. It's all great stuff.

Okay. So, first of all, here, I'll hold this up. See that? I am barefoot. Yeah. I'm always barefoot on this treadmill. But, it's got this super soft plushy foam surface on it. So, it kind of stretches and strengthens my feet while I'm walking on it. But, the Naboso, I'd love for you to explain how that proprioceptive technology works because I have your mat in my sauna, but I will sometimes wear these socks. I think you sent them to me. And they've got the same little proprioceptive triggers inside the sock. Those are the Naboso socks, right?

Absolutely. So, all the products by Naboso, just in case that the listeners have no idea what we're talking about right now, is it is a product line that I developed 5 years ago. And, All of the products have these tiny little pyramids on them. And those little pyramids, which are about 1 millimeter tall, 1.5 millimeter tall, so they're small, across the entire surface of the sock, the mat, the ball, whatever product you're using, is stimulating the nerves in the bottom of the feet. And by stimulating those nerves, which are very special nerves, you wake up foot awareness, postural awareness, you wake up your foot muscles. There's actually, 26 small muscles in the bottom of our feet that we have to wake up and strengthen, and then it improves circulation and it's a really good form of foot recovery. So you get all these incredible benefits by stimulating the nerves in the bottom of the feet.

What do you think about nail boards or, or these acupressure? And, well, they actually aren't nail boards. A company called, I, I think Gravity Mind, they send me some of these things. You're supposed to stand on them. To improve some of these same proprioceptive cues that you are talking about. But what's your take on nail boards?

Yeah, so nail boards, I would think of it as a nail board is not replacing Naboso. They're actually targeting the nervous system very different. Naboso is targeting more your movement nerves where nail boards are more the autonomic nervous system. So regulating, let's say acupressure points, regulating mindfulness, maybe bringing you into a parasympathetic state. State, that's more of what it's playing with. So, both are awesome. I've actually been really curious to try them. So, let me know how they are.

Yeah. They get a little boring because you just kind of stand there. And I don't know, I'm not a fan of just like standing there with my eyes closed on a nail board. I do use the acupressure mat sometimes you can lay on. I find those are very relaxing for something like a nap. And then, I wear your socks and I use the mat. In my sauna. But, me and my brothers grew up in North Idaho, kind of like barefoot homeschool dirty hippies. We had this long gravel driveway. We'd walk up and down that driveway because we had to take the garbage can down to the— and this is like a quarter-mile-long driveway. We had to take garbage can down there for garbage days and we'd go for a walk down to the neighbors to hang out with them. And, we did a lot of walking. But a lot of it was on gravel. So I would imagine there's probably a case to be made. Like if, if you live in an area where you just got like an outside yard with rocks, with gravel, you know, maybe you're near a beach or a riverbed where you can walk on rocks, like actually embracing that and trying to throw some challenges at your feet every day.

100%. That is, again, I would look at it more autonomic. Because it's a, it's a little bit of like a mind over matter. So how can I relate to this stimulus? A lot of people having defensiveness to stimulus and they are, they would be what would be considered like tactile defensive and they actually get a, uh, systemic response, a sympathetic systemic response to stimuli. That's not good because then that creates dysregulation. They're now in fight or flight because of a stimulus. And that's not good. So by introducing things like walking on gravel, nail board, you could ease into the nail board, but you're actually desensitizing that defensiveness. And that then can be associated with emotional regulation. There's, there's a lot of intercrossing between stimuli movement, stimuli emotion, stimuli cognition. So it's all, I think everyone should be bringing in stimulation of their feet every day.

All right.

I have a great idea.

I'm going to duct tape these nail boards to my feet and just basically use them to walk around. That way, I can move with the nails.

There you go.

So, the thing that I've been getting asked a lot about lately, and this is even something that I've had to deal with a few times over the past few years. I don't know if it's getting old. I don't know if it's all the little foot injuries I sustained back when I used to race. Spartans on all sorts of undulating terrain and occasionally step on rocks and throw my toes this way and that. But specifically, the big toe is something that I've become increasingly aware of when it comes to its importance. And also, I've seen a lot of people have issues with their big toes. So, I would love to get into that with you. First, just by asking, what's the importance? What's the actual degree of importance of the big toe and big toe mobility or strength or however you would define it?

Absolutely. So I obviously a lot of the focus is on the big toe, but I want to first talk about all of our toes. And when I talk about foot strength, the strength of a foot is really based off of your toe strength. So when people are all about training their feet, they want to squat from the ground up. Foot is very trendy right now, so there's a lot of focus on how to strengthen the foot and what are the exercises. I put a lot of my attention into the digits or into the toes, and that's because your toes play a very important role in how you balance. If you do not have what's called toe flexor strength, that's really what we're talking about is toe flexor strength, your ability to anchor your toes into the ground, that affects your balance. That affects the way that you push off every time you take a step. So that's going to affect power, force, acceleration, vertical jump. Your digits are linked into all of that. So when I talk about athletics, very important. When I talk about reducing falls, very important. So it's at its baseline. Your digits are very important. Now, of all the digits, the big toe is obviously the most important because it houses 3 times the strength of the little toes. So most of it's going to be rooted in that. And a fun fact is that, remember I said there's 26 muscles in the bottom of the feet? 40% of that muscle volume, 40% of that muscle volume is focused around the big toe, which means that is really where that power is coming from. And even the tendons, your flexor hallucis longus, big toe, versus flexor digitorum longus, little toes, has again 3 times the strength of the other tendons. So it's very important.

Real, real quick, the, the flexion piece is the reason that the flexion of the toe, the ability to kind of like grip the ground with the toe or, or kind of like drive it down. Is that more important or something you're talking about more than extension? Because we're naturally pushed into extension when we're walking. Whereas it takes a little bit more mindfulness to engage in the flexion component?

Absolutely. 100%. I'm so glad you said that. So we have to, we actively push our toes into the ground when we walk. You are essentially rolling through the digits. So, um, for the listeners, so it makes sense, do like a calf raise. And if you do a calf raise and you look down at your foot, that is a push-off position, or what's called a rigid lever. When you're in that position, your toes are extended, but it's not your extensors that are extending your toes. It is passive, which is what you were saying. It's passive. What keeps you stable in that lever or that calf raise position is your flexors, which have to be anchoring or pulling you into the ground. So I'm so glad you said that because sometimes people will say, look how I lift my toes off of the ground, and they'll just stand there and lift their toes up and say, look at my strength, or look at my range of motion. That does not transfer to how we walk. And I actually never do that assessment on patients in my office. I'm much more concerned about the flexion action.

Yeah, I was kind of shocked when I tried an exercise in which you're supposed to almost, you know, like playing the piano with your toes, lift your toes off of the ground, right? Extension of the toes. And even though I engage in passive extension a ton, right, because I take like 15,000 steps a day, and so the toes are constantly being extended by the ground, my ability to actively extend my toes and actually lift them off the ground was shockingly ineffective. It was a very difficult exercise for me to do. Is that common?

It is, and it's not something that I would then be very concerned about your lack of ability to do that. You could consider a lot of those, like, toe yoga exercises as brain games. That's how I consider it. That's very different than an exercise that is transferring directly to a sport or to an action during walking or something like that. So it's not that doing that exercise you did is not worth the time. I just want people to understand why are we doing something? Is it to connect to your feet to create that mind muscle? Sure. That's great. I know people are very non-compliant when it comes to foot exercises, so I'm very specific on what I recommend based off of transfer to gait or to walking. That's usually what I look at.

And that's where flexion, active flexion would be probably the place to put more of your emphasis.

Perfect. 100%.

Okay. All right. Got it. So with the big toe or really with, with toe flexion in general, what are some ways that we can actually do that?

So one is through a forward lean. This is actually one of my favorite ways to teach people how to get into their flexors or their toe strength. And for a forward lean, you would just stand up with your feet shoulder-width apart. I would have you find a neutral position. So you would find your tripod, lift your toes, spread them out wide, rotate just ever so slightly externally into your hips so you can neutralize your foot or find a base. Stay nice and tall, arms by your side. Imagine that you are stiff as a board. Say stiff as a board, and you're going to lean your body forward. So you're going to slightly lean. And then go back to a vertical position, slightly lean, go back vertical. Do that a couple of times. Every time you lean your body forward slightly, even your toes are going to anchor into the ground. And what that's doing is that's activating a postural reflex. This is a reflex in your nervous system so that you do not fall on your face, and it is protective. So by doing forward lean, you can get your foot to activate. Without even thinking about anything related to your foot. And I love to use this for people who are new to strengthening their feet because they don't have that connection yet. Then I would have someone do that same toe activation without leaning their body forward. Essentially, that's the progression. Can you do that without leaning? Yes, I can consciously do that. Great. Can you now do that on one leg? Great. And now we're progressing into what's called short foot. Short foot is the king or queen of all foot exercises. But the way that I teach short foot, which is pushing the toes into the ground, is that you have to cue the breath because your diaphragm is connected to your feet. So every time you push your toes down, you would, you would exhale so that toes down, exhale is essentially coordinating your foot to core integration. And this is where a lot of my work focuses on. The other part that's connected to your feet and your diaphragm is your pelvic floor. So you would need to essentially lift your pelvic floor while you exhale and while you push your toes into the ground. That's one of the best ways to start to get into your toe flexors. And then the third way is essentially train toe flexion in a lever. So your foot is, or your ankle is plantar flexed, your toes are extended just like that calf raise position. And can you push your toes into the ground into that position? Because that's actually transferring to how we walk, how you do a jump, different techniques like that.

Okay. So, so the part about exhaling while I engage with toe flexion, kind of like root these toes into the ground using some of the cues that you've just described makes sense. You also said lift the pelvic floor. What does that mean exactly?

So our pelvic floor, the base of your pelvis, is an anti-gravity muscle. So this, this fat, very fascially dense muscle, which is part of posture, plays an important role in how we resist gravity. So when you lift the pelvic floor, Very, very simply, it would be like a Kegel, but that's not correct. But you could think like a Kegel. It's more integrated than a Kegel. But if you lift the pelvic floor, and I will teach people how to do this, that is coordinated with an exhalation. And this is based off of— you could think of different domes in the body, and your diaphragm is a dome, and then your pelvic floor is another dome and they rise and lift with each other. So it's almost like, remember like a sinusoidal wave from school? Hopefully people remember that, right? So we are essentially rising up and rising down or lowering down. So we're kind of riding that wave in synchrony between the diaphragm and the pelvic floor. When we inhale, your diaphragm actually drops. That's part of why your belly rises when you Inhale. You also want to have a relaxation of the pelvic floor. You're not letting go the pelvic floor, but you allow your pelvic floor to drop a little bit. And then when you exhale, your diaphragm lifts and then your pelvic floor will lift. And that's essentially how you're doing this in rhythm. If you want to get your feet part of that, and the listeners can, can try this, when you push your toes down, your arch actually lifts. So instead of memorizing what I'm saying, I want people to logically connect and say, okay, toes push down, my arch, which is kind of like a dome, lifts. Okay, so when I engage my pelvic floor, it lifts. When I exhale, my diaphragm lifts. So if I stack the rising of the domes That makes sense. They go together. And then when I relax, I inhale, I relax the pelvic floor, I relax my foot. Essentially all those domes are relaxing down. And then I exhale, push my toes down, all the domes rise. And that's how you find stabilization in your system.

So if I wanted to vastly oversimplify this, I could simply say exhale and engage with toe flexion. And upon exhaling, I'm automatically, as long as I'm exhaling properly, going to cause that dome of the diaphragm to lift the dome of the pelvic floor to lift. And as I'm kind of like driving those toes into flexion, that'll kind of automatically cause the arch to rise. So if I was gonna focus on just two things, what makes most sense to me is exhale with toe flexion.

Absolutely. Start there. And then, like, when I work with an athlete, once they get that, they get that, they get that is programmed, then I can get more specific. Because what I do want to emphasize is that the part of the pelvic floor that actually connects to the foot and in this stack that we're talking about is your posterior pelvic floor. So that's your levator ani. You have to be able to differentiate and say, okay, when I push my toes down, Boom. I felt my levator ani lift, but that, that's like phase 2. I need you first here to kind of get the coordination between the breath and the feet.

Now the levator ani, which muscle is that for people who might not be in, you know, a, as intimately familiar with anatomy as you are?

Yeah. So your levator ani, which is your posterior pelvic floor, your pelvic floor, the base of your pelvis has a front and a back. The back of your pelvic floor is your levator ani. That would be imagining stopping your poo. So let's say if you were just like, boom, do it, right? You're like, okay, I feel something happening in the back door, right? There's actually a lift. That's what your levator ani does. And why it's so important to connect to that muscle is because your levator ani myofascially or fascially connects into your glute max. So if you want to be accessing your glutes and as much power out of your glutes, you want to understand how to pull your posterior pelvic floor into that muscle.

That makes sense. Okay. So basically think about, instead of a Kegel stopping the flow of urine, activating your levator ani would be more like stopping the flow of poo.

Yes. And then could you do this? So the way that I do this as an example that people can play around with is let's say you're doing a squat, I'm doing a back squat. Called a squat. You're going down into the bottom of the squat, so you're loaded. And then at the bottom of the squat, push your toes into the floor because you got to anchor your system before you push that load. As soon as you push your toes down, boom, lift your levator ani and then hold it and exhale and come out of the squat. That's how it would transfer to an exercise.

Makes perfect sense. And because I do so much of my training barefoot or now when I'm traveling, I wear, I don't know what you think about Mark Sisson's brand Peluva, these toe shoes with a slightly wider toe box. It's very easy for me to do a lot of what you're talking about. But this kind of leads into a very important discussion, of course, about footwear. How difficult is it to do everything that you're talking about wearing the average pair of shoes?

If the shoe has a stack, cushion, rocker, narrow, it's going to obviously make this more difficult. I am a big fan of Peluva. It's actually what I choose to wear when I lift. And then sometimes with some of the lifts, I still will end up taking my shoes off because even that slight stack that's under Peluva, which it's a few millimeters of cushion, it will still alter my alignment. And my ability to get into the foot. So footwear, even the most minimal footwear, will take away some of that connection to the ground and the activation of the digits. Can you still push your toes down when you are in a Vivo or a Xero or a Peluva? Absolutely. Absolutely. So you can start to get that connection. It might be easier barefoot. So when someone owns it and they have it strong barefoot, now let's try it when we're in shoes.

Okay. I want to come back to shoes briefly, but I want to share with you something, get your take on this. I made up this exercise in the gym that I think relates to and incorporates a lot of what you're describing. I use this as a warmup, especially when I'm, when I'm doing a lot of leg exercises, but just in general, it's one of my favorite warmups to do because it engages with a lot of what you're describing. I have a Power Plate. It has this naturally, if you take the protective cushion that it comes with off the top of it, it has this naturally kind of tacky proprioceptive surface on it. I stand on that in a wide squat, I curl my toes down into flexion, I flip it on for a minute, it vibrates, I drop into an isometric squat and hold this isometric squat with my toes in flexion. But this vibratory component of the Power Plate seems to enhance that even more. If I do that before workout, my feet feel completely— well, between that and walking down the gravel pathway to the gym barefoot, my feet feel completely turned on for the rest of the workout. Have you ever tried that, doing barefoot exercises on top of a Power Plate to introduce the vibratory component?

Oh my gosh, Ben, it is like you are reading my mind. At Naboso, we actually have a relationship with Power Plate and they make our mats on top of their Power Plates. So, so funny. I love Power Plate. I have one in my office and I've actually created various foot programs and balance programs for the company. So yes, I'm very much into this. Yes. Oh, I was literally like, oh my God, Ben, yes. So part of why that's working is that vibration is one of the other stimuli that the nerves in the bottom of our feet is sensitive to. The first one was texture. That's what Naboso is. The second is vibration. And 70% of the nerves in the bottom of our feet are sensitive to vibration. So that's why you were feeling so connected. You woke up the muscles, you woke up the nerves, you stimulated circulation. So, yeah, virtual high five for doing that. Keep doing it.

Okay, fantastic. They also have a vibrating bike that I ride barefoot, which is great, their Rev Bike. Okay. So, the shoe thing is interesting to me. This is something I've been thinking about a lot and I wanted to run it by you. I had a bunion for a few months. And maybe, as a part of your reply to my question, you can explain to people what a bunion actually is and how that happens. And, I found it actually pretty irritating and painful to use, you know, Peluva, Vivobarefoot, Xero, any of my low-drop wide toe box barefoot-style shoes. And so, then I switched for that period of months where I was dealing with the bunion to the Brooks Ghost, kind of a more cushioned shoe, but also a shoe that has the cushioning but a very wide toe box. And any of the cushioned shoes without the wide toe box, those cause the same amount of pain as the more barefoot-style shoes. So, my question for you is twofold. One, and this might be kind of involved, what is a bunion and where does that come from? And two, what kind of shoe actually is best if you're dealing with something like that?

Yeah, so I wanna actually, I'm gonna answer those questions on the bunion, but I wanna add one actual aspect to that is sometimes people think they have a bunion, but they actually have hallux limitus. And sometimes they'll call that a dorsal bunion or a bunion on the top of the foot versus the side of the foot. So I just, I want that subtle clarification is what's a bunion? What would be a hallux limitus or pain in the joint but no bump? And then how does that affect movement? And then how does footwear affect that? So when it comes to your big toe, which we described how important the big toe is, any sort of deviation in really the transverse plane, but in the alignment of your big toe where maybe the metatarsal, the long bone swings out and then the toe comes in and it makes that angulation and the bump, that's a bunion. Bunions. Are associated with foot stability, foot laxity, foot posture, or lack thereof. So most often you will see bunions or a deviation of that metatarsal in the angulation when someone has a very flexible foot, a flexible flat foot, overpronation. There's some loss of stability in the foot, which predisposes the ability for that metatarsal to swing out. I just wanna emphasize that because sometimes people will blame shoes and shoes that are, let's say, pointy or narrow will push a toe in. Imagine like a triangular shape and you're creating a triangular at the end of the toe. That's not necessarily a bunion. Just the toe angled in isn't a bunion. What a bunion is, is the opening of the metatarsals. And that bump of the metatarsal head swinging out that I just want that clarification so that people understand really what's a bunion.

Okay. But, but a quick, a quick question about that. If, if I'm wearing a narrow toe box shoe and it's pushing the, it's compressing the toes and kind of pushing that big toe media medially, wouldn't that by definition be kind of putting outward force on the metatarsal, thus contributing to a, a bunion-like state?

Let's call it a bunion-like or pseudo, pseudo bunion. So again, really what a bunion is, is that opening, the opening of the metatarsals. So when I assess a bunion, I can't, I cannot do a complete bunion assessment without looking at X-rays because I have to measure that angle between the first and the second metatarsal. And that, that is a subtle but very important distinction because then that helps to understand, well, are bunions reversible? Can I reverse a bunion with exercises, toe spacers, conservatively, or can I only reverse a bunion through surgery? Well, if a bunion is the opening of the metatarsals, that can only be addressed in surgery. If we're thinking of a toe that's angled and the metatarsal hasn't swung out, which you can get, that, that would be more shoes causing that. And you use toe spacers and you stretch it and you strengthen the intrinsics and you start to see that toe sit straighter, then yes, you can do that. But that opening of the metatarsal, so I just want that clarification. That's all. That's all. Because there's so much conversation about this, especially online. And that subtle differentiation just helps the listeners, the consumers, patients really understand the diagnosis. Now, around the bunion, so the concern around a bunion, let's say the metatarsal swing out and the toe comes in and we have this angulation, you got a bump. My concern is not really the bump or the angulation, it's at the joint. So when you start to go like this and you angle the metatarsal and the toe, and for those that are just listening, I'm creating a bunion with my hand. Hands, and I'm shifting the joint out of alignment, which means now your cartilage is not lined up anymore. When a joint isn't lined up, I don't care what joint in the body it is, you start to shift the way you put pressure on cartilage. You get pain, arthritis, you lose range of motion. So a lot of symptoms of bunions are actually soft tissue capsulitis. That is from pinching and shifting off of that cartilage. So that's, that's a part of it that I would want you to know. And then in the case of hallux limitus, or where people will call it a dorsal bunion, is the joint has compressed for whatever reason, there's many reasons, but the joint has compressed and you're pinching the capsule and creating a capsulitis as well. And that can be very painful. So big toe pain, whether it's a bunion, hallux limitus, it's soft tissue.

Got it. And if my big toes hurt, is there a case to be made kind of like I experienced with my own, what I'm pretty sure was a bunion, to be switching to a shoe that has some extra cushioning instead of these, say, barefoot shoes or toe shoes? Because wearing that Brooks Ghost gave me a ton of relief.

It can. Now what I want people to also think about is that under your big toe metatarsal head, you have your little sesamoids. And when you shift the way you move through the, the big toe, you can put pressure on those sesamoids. So sometimes it's about getting cushion under the big toe because the sesamoids and how you're putting pressure through it. What I would be curious to try is what's called a dancer's pad. And I love to try dancer's pads on bunions, hallux limitus, sesamoiditis, anything around the big toe. Go to Amazon. Actually, there's a company called Hapad, H-A-P-A-D. They have really high-quality dancer's pads. Put it on your foot, walk around, try it, and it can balance the timing of how you move around the big toe. And I have videos on how to put it on your foot on my YouTube. It's a great way to do it. You might want to temporarily use a shoe that has a rocker. Some people actually feel better in minimal shoes. So really, it's a demonstration of listen to your foot, listen to your body, and understand that if you need to use a little more cushion, it's temporary. Let's balance the stress around the joint. If you use a rocker, let's balance the stress around the joint, and then you can kind of deviate back to your ideal footwear.

Yeah. And I also watched some of your videos and read some of your articles. I did deep tissue work for the bottom of the foot, a lot of rolling. I used the Naboso ball that you sent me and even went so far as to have it under my foot and reach down and kind of mobilize my big toe and move it around in circles and move that metatarsal as well while the ball was underneath my foot. But do you know the one thing, and I want to ask you how this works and why this was so effective that made the biggest impact on the bunion. I'll let you guess first. Toe spacers. Toe spacers. Exactly. You nailed it. Wow. First, first guess. You know, I didn't talk about this before the show at all. So I, you sent me these toe spacers and I put them on and it was super annoying. Like my feet would start to ache and had them on, on airplanes and I'd wake up in the middle of the night. And then after like a week, My feet started to get wider, my toes started to get wider. And it's crazy because even my wife commented, "Your feet look different." Like, my actual toes have a huge amount of space between them now after about 4 weeks of consistent use. I mean, almost 24 hours a day wearing these toe spacers. As a matter of fact, I think my team might have reached out because I've already burnt through 2 pairs of them. I got to get some more toe spacers. So, I mean, I'm wearing them in the hot tub and in the shower and on airplanes. So what is it about toe spacers that makes them work so effectively? And you might even want to explain to people who might not know what they are, what a toe spacer is and how that actually works.

Yes. Oh my gosh. So toe spacers, imagine, imagine something that slides on top of your, your toes. Sometimes people will think of when someone's getting a pedicure and you're taping or you're painting the toes, they put something in between and they're like, Kind of like that, like if you're getting a pedicure done. Okay, yes, but this is more specific. This would slide on and it would open up all 5 of your toes with an interspace between all of them. They are designed to be worn as a form of recovery at the end of the day, in your shoes, when working out. People wear them all day. They're really, really good for bunions. So that's, there you go with that one. Hammer toes, neuromas, plantar fasciitis, a day in your shoes and now you, your shoes were tighter and now you wanna open up your feet and spread. So they are awesome. And it was really interesting, the Wall Street Journal actually did a piece on toe spacers and it was all about the, the monetary side of toe spacers. And they're like, what is this crazy foot recovery trend? That is just exploding on social media and celebrities and professional athletes are using it and they're like, this is so bizarre. And I helped them with the piece. I essentially helped the writer justify to the editor in the Wall Street Journal that this is a money conversation here because it was so crazy. But yeah, it is one of the fastest growing for recovery trends. Who would've thought?

Oh my gosh. I'll have to, I'll have to find that article and link to it. Uh, you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/dr-emily, Dr. Emily, if you're listening and I'll, I'll link to a lot of this stuff that Emily and I are talking about. So, just as a preventive or even perhaps a foot health enhancement tool, is there a case to be made for using these toe spacers even if you don't have a recognizable foot issue or toe pain or a bunion or something like that?

Absolutely, absolutely. It is actually one of the easiest ways to just start to bring foot health into your daily routine and your habit. And that, I mean, that's a huge part of what I stand behind, what, why I do podcasts like this is that I want people to think about their feet now, not only when they have plantar fasciitis or a bunion or when they're 80. Like, I want people to do it now. And toe spacers are one of the best ways to do it. 'Cause you can walk around in them, just put 'em on at the end of the day and walk around.

Yeah. Way easier than, than duct taping nail boards to your feet. Some people might be getting tired of hearing us talk just about the toes. You have such a broad range of knowledge in so many other areas. And one thing I've seen you address recently has been walking. And specifically, something that I've alluded to on the show before, but I'd love to hear your take on this. The idea between walking, walking speed, and Longevity. Tell me about that.

Yes. So a big part of what I focus on in my work, um, I'm actually writing another book really around this, is that our nervous system and the evolution of how we are today from our level of cognition, our emotional regulation is really based around how we've evolved to walk, or the fact that we did evolve to walk and stand on two feet. Et cetera. So to optimize longevity, to protect your brain health, to support emotional connection is based around never stop moving. Means walking, continuously walking, such as what you're doing right now. But it's really walking at a certain pace. And if people think about the way that they walk right now, just kind of an average day, they're walking maybe to their car, around their home, the car to the grocery store. So there we walk in these very short, staccato steps. We do not walk in the way that we were actually evolved to walk. Imagine in the wild where you're walking in very long steps, you're walking at a certain pace. When someone does walking exercise, they are going to pick up the pace. That is really how we were designed to walk. Now, why that's important is when you pick up a certain paced, you have to take these long steps. And every time you take a long step, your pelvis starts to rotate and then your torso counter-rotates. So you actually are what's called decoupling your spine. And these rotations all the way from your foot— your foot is doing a different type of rotation, but it's still rotating, which rotates the leg, which then rotates the pelvis and the T-spine. And you're essentially That's part of how you hydrate your system, your fascia, by getting this pump going within your body. But the only way you can activate that and get the torso and the T-spine to rotate and the arm swinging is you have to take long enough steps, which means you have to walk fast enough. Another big part of this is that when you walk at a certain speed, you get this full circulatory pump going. Which gets blood to your brain and it actually stimulates brain-derived neurogrowth factor. And that's very cognitive protective, that's dementia protective, and that's really a huge part of longevity is keeping that brain nice and solid. So that's a, a really important part. Now, the big thing, and this is where I focus on with my work, is you can't just walk fast and like want to walk fast and then walk fast. Because there's a lot of requirements in the system to be able to walk fast. We already spoke about one. If you do not have range of motion in your big toe, you cannot take a long step, which means you can't walk fast if you don't have range of motion in your big toe. So that already is one of the linchpins or the requirements to the protective mechanism of walking fast is your big toe. That's huge. If you can't plantarflex your ankle enough into that push-off position, you can't walk fast. If you can't extend your hip, if your pelvis and your T-spine don't rotate, you cannot walk fast. If you cannot stand on one leg, that's a requirement to walking fast. So that's what I try to get people to understand is to break it down and say what's required to walking fast, as soon as I understand the longevity anti-aging mechanism of walking fast, well, this is what's required. So that's what I need to focus on.

Yeah, I love that. There was even a study that I saw recently on the so-called Japanese 3x3 walking interval. Very, very simple. It's walk aerobically for 3 minutes and then pick up the pace and walk as quickly as you can for 3 minutes for 3 rounds. Actually, it might have been more than 3 rounds, but anyways, it's 3 minutes on, 3 minutes easy. And this was actually studied as far as reduced all-cause risk of mortality, the benefits on blood pressure, reduced risk of cardiovascular disease, blood sugar management, just by modifying a walk so that some parts of the walk involve walking faster than you'd probably walk naturally.

Yep. I love that. I would actually love to see that study. And it makes sense, right? 'Cause they are, they're getting that activation of the pump. A lot of people, they put a lot of attention onto fascial health, but part of your fascial health is that you have to activate it. So it's almost like wringing out a rag and you twist it and you untwist it and what that does to a tissue hydration perspective.

Yeah. And you mentioned one thing when you were describing the ability to be able to walk quickly, and that was the single leg stability. I think that a lot of people might be intimidated by the idea of putting a slackline in the backyard. But last year, somebody sent me this thing. I believe it's just called a Slackboard. You stand on it and it's like a slackline, but I just have one in my room next door to my office. And it allows you to do single-foot balance slackline-type exercises. As a bonus, I'm in a huge amount of toe flexion. My toes get tired on this thing. Have you ever, uh, done any riding or experimented at all with the idea of slacklining or slackboards?

Uh, so there is some research around slacklining. Now slacklining is hard. I played around with slacklines. I'm like, woo, those are hard. But people can incorporate single leg training, balance training in a way that is fun. And that's where I like slacklining because it makes it, you do it outside oftentimes. There's so many benefits of being outside. Some people will do it on a beam. So beams are really popular. Like, the Foot Collective has a beam. You could do, like, a gymnastics beam, which are sometimes at parks. You could do that. At Nabosa, we have a Kinesis Board. So it's a single-leg balance platform. There's that Slack Block that you're talking about. So there's different ways to do that. And then, yes, part of how you maintain balance is toe flexor strength that we spoke about in the beginning. So all this stuff comes full circle, but being able to stand on one leg is very important. And what the research shows is that to predict falls or this ability to walk fast, really what you're looking at is can you stand on one leg for 10 seconds? Can you do that, right? And oftentimes in my assessments, people even in their 30s cannot stand on one leg Because unless you incorporate balance in like a class or you consciously train your balance, no one is doing single leg exercises.

Is that eyes open or eyes closed? The, the, uh, the 10 seconds thing.

It's eyes open and people also fail that. So, but yes, would you do it then with your eyes closed? That would be ideal. Um, so what I recommend that people do is that they do 5 minutes of single leg training every day. Do it when you brush your teeth, do it when you're waiting for the coffee to be made, whatever it is, try to stand on one leg. And I do it always in 10-second bouts. So stand on your right leg for 10 seconds, stand on your left leg for 10 seconds, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then you can play with your balance. So to challenge balance, you don't necessarily have to go to a Kinesis Board, to a Slack Block, to a Bosu, something like that, you could just perturb your system based off of understanding how we actually maintain balance. And part of how we maintain balance is by using our eyes, our ears, our touch, and then our joints. So it's visual, vestibular, proprioceptive, and mechanoreceptive. That's the systems. So an example of how you would perturb that is stand on one leg and then just move your eyes to the right, center, left, center, and you're just moving your eyes. That's going to perturb your system. Okay. A way that you could perturb your vestibular, stand on a leg again, look straight ahead, spot something, and then shake your head no. So it's not like a slow turn, but for the listeners, you would be saying like, no, no, no, no, no. Or on the other foot, repeat it and say yes, like a bobblehead. You're just bobbling your head. You're, you're trying to perturb the inner ear fluid of your vestibular system. Then I'll have people do dual tasking. So you could stand on one leg, spot something, count backwards from 100 in multiples of 3 or 7 or something, or spell a word backwards. And you're balancing while doing something cognitive, and that will actually challenge your balance better than having to go onto a Bosu or something like that.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I know a lot of people might hear an episode like this and they'll be like, "Oh gosh, yet another thing to do. When am I going to squeeze this in?" I can tell you for me, just to share my own perspective on this, I have 2 times of the day that are carved out for like experimentation. One is after lunch because I'm constantly getting asked about these meditation devices and neurofeedback devices and different chambers and relaxation techniques. So, I usually have anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes carved out right after lunch to go to a relaxing area of the house and play with, assess, and experiment with relaxation, napping, meditation-oriented devices simply because my marriage and love life would suffer if I was doing this in bed at night with a bunch of wires attached to my head while my wife sits there. Staring lovingly at me. So, I have that time carved out for trying out all the things, right? Like, all the biohacks that are supposed to increase your heart rate variability or relax you or whatever. And I just carve that time out. It means I got to take a shorter lunch. It means I've adjusted my day so that I'm sometimes working later into the day because I've lost that, if you want to call it losing it, that 30 to 60 minutes after lunch. But then also, when I wake up, I bake in 15 minutes every morning to try out noodle exercises, foam rolling movements, you know, standing on that slack board that I mentioned, messing around with one of these Naboso tools. So, that means that I give myself anywhere from 75 to 90 minutes a week baked in, in the morning, protected time, 15 minutes that I can try this stuff out. So, I would encourage people just like, find a time rather than just kind of saying organically, "Oh, I got to try a few of those things Emily and Ben were talking about." Just find a time during the day where you can experiment with this stuff. And for me, it varies from day to day. One day, I might be doing 15 minutes of a bunch of foot exercise stuff that I learned from Emily on this podcast that I want to try later on. Another day, it might be 15 minutes of trying some kind of a lymph circulation trampoline routine I learned from another guest. But I recommend that folks just like find a time of day to do this stuff. And it actually leads into another question that I wanted to ask you, Emily, that might confuse some people or, or they might need some direction on this. I briefly mentioned the ball, and I think a lot of people have these things like the lacrosse ball, the tennis ball, the golf ball, maybe one of your Noboso balls, and they keep it next to their desk and they might kind of roll their foot up and down it occasionally. But is there, is there something better we can do with these balls? Like what's the best way to use one of these foot proprioceptive balls?

Yes. So I am going to be biased here about the Naboso because the neural ball, which is called a ball, actually splits into two pieces. So that just in itself is going to give a different relief.

Oh, shoot. I, okay. So first of all, I feel like an idiot right now. So I have multiple times, um, broken the ball and I've kind of like cursed you under my breath. Like, why the heck did you make a ball? It's so easy to break when I'm doing my foot rolling exercise. It's actually designed to break into two pieces.

Oh my gosh. Yes. Ben, you—

Oh geez. Okay. I learned something new every day.

So it is a ball that splits into two pieces. So you have two domes and this is the support of what you were talking about where people are like, oh great, here's another thing. Right. This is going to allow you to stand on the domes and release both of your feet at the exact same time. So you can get this done way more efficiently. Obviously there's the texture as well, 'cause all the Naboso products have the texture. But why this is important is because you can do pinpoint pressure release and you actually get a better release of the feet when you do pinpoint pressure. So when someone buys the, the Neural Ball, there is a QR code. Ben did not scan it, but that's okay. There's a QR code that takes you to a YouTube video on how to do the pinpoint pressure release. Totally fine. And we point out the different 5 points. You would stand on each of these points for 30 seconds, not 30 minutes, 30 seconds, go to the next point, and then you're getting the release. So I like pinpoint pressure, pinpoint pressure to release the feet. Sometimes when you roll, you might hit a, like a trigger point, let's say, which creates a guarding response. Response, you actually contract the muscles versus relax the muscles. Another really good benefit, I talk a lot about circulation with the feet because it's so important and it's often overlooked. But when you stand on the domes and you're sitting there for 30 seconds and then you lift your foot, that's where you're getting that, that rush of circulation to the tissue. I don't know if you've ever played around with flossing, like flossing a joint and then you wrap it. Yeah.

And then it's really, I, I love to do like knee flossing. Yeah. You wrap, wrap the joints with like a, wear a real thin elastic band above and below, and then I'll flex and extend the knee. And when you take the band off, you get this rush of like pain-free range of motion in the joint.

Yep. So think of a similar compression release, and then you get that rush of circulation. So that's another benefit of doing pinpoint pressure release. So that's what I would say with it. Now, what I would say, because I'm sure a lot of the listeners have Theragun, Hyperice, or some sort of percussive gun. I like to paint the foot with that. So I'd like to very lightly, almost like tickle the foot with the percussive gun. So you're not pounding into the foot, but you're very lightly. And then that's going to stimulate all these superficial nerves, the circulation. You wake up your perception of the foot almost like you did on the vibration platform. That's another way that people could do it. Or if people don't wanna buy a $2,000 Power Plate, they could get a vibration roller and sit your feet on the roller, and that would bring that vibration as well.

Yeah, I love that. And there, there's definitely a link between some of these sensory perceptions and toe proprioception because another guy who I haven't interviewed on the show yet, Derek Noseworthy, he wrote a book called Toilet Yoga, and it's literally like moves and stretches you can do during toilet time to allow you to pass a bowel movement more effectively. And part of it involves actually sitting on the toilet, one leg crossed over the other, doing specific toe and toe pressure point therapy with your, with your hands and your fingers, and then switching and doing it on the other foot. And those moves fricking like open up a faucet in the bowels for some reason. And so, there's, there's, there's, believe it or not, there's an actual book called Toilet Yoga. And part of it involves toe therapy.

I mean, it makes sense though, because when women are pregnant, you cannot get a foot massage. After a certain point in your pregnancy, or you could use a foot massage to essentially induce labor. So it's very, that's very paralleling what, what that same thing is. But I love that. I need to check out that book.

Yeah. So in the same way that you've partnered or thought about partnering up with the treadmill and partnered up with the Power Plate, now you need to approach Squatty Potty about putting the Naboso on top of the, the Squatty Potty surface. That's your next move. It's your billion-dollar business idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Emily, this has been fascinating as usual. Our other discussion was great. This one, you know, again, I learned a ton. I've got a bunch of things to follow up on, including scanning my QR code for the ball, the, the cheap ball that breaks that actually wasn't breaking. Uh, so anyways, for everybody listening in, I'm going to link to Dr. Emily and all of her materials at bengreenfieldlife.com/dr-emily. And when does the book on walking come out, Emily?

Yes, so that is going to be early September. We are in the final stages of that. I will definitely send you a copy because that one, and I'll tell listeners now what it's on, I call it the De-Evolution Crisis. So I really believe that we are through technology, sitting sedentary, just how the world is advancing in all these AI ways is actually connecting a lot of the inherent reasons of why we evolved, which is human interaction, touch. Touch is huge. You have to be able to touch and be touched. You have to move. You have to move in a certain way. Obviously, I'll talk about footwear and barefoot stimulation, but there's so much about really our nervous system that we are— that's shifting and changing as technology changes, and that's actually affecting our longevity and our anti-aging process. So, that's the focus.

Right. I can't wait. You know, Mark, we mentioned earlier, Mark Sisson, the guy who does the Paluva, he has one coming out, I think, called "Born to Walk." So, it sounds like I'm going to be binging on some walking books this fall, which is great. So again, if you're listening in, I'll link to all this stuff. Go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/DrEmily, D-R-E-M-E-L-Y. Listen to my other podcast with Emily as well. Between those two, you're going to be really equipped to have super feet and a super body. So, Emily, thank you so much once again for coming on the show.

Of course. Thank you so much.

Alright, folks. I'm Ben Greenfield along with Dr. Emily Spickolf, Spickolf, signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com. Have an incredible week.

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