Everything You Need To Know About the “Futuristic Detox Sauna” Stacking Ozone, PEMF, Microcurrents & MORE (This Is NEXT-LEVEL!), With HOCATT Inventor André Smith

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast, you, you've got all of this technology stacking each other where the one potentiates the other. You need electricity, you need blood flow, you need nutrient absorption, you need neurotransmitters to fire to give signals in your nervous system. There's something I want to come back to that's very, very interesting about the carbonic acid.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield.

I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. So, in my garage in my new property in Idaho, I've got this weird device. It looks like this Space AG transport pod. Your head sticks out of it and it's almost like a sauna that you sit inside of with your head sticking out, but there's way more going on than that. There's like Ozone and different frequencies and PEMF. And, every time somebody comes over to the house and checks it out, I'm like, "That's the most probably powerful detoxification tool that is in my arsenal." But, in order for me to explain it properly, I'd probably have to have a really long conversation. And, I decided to get the expert behind this weird device called the the Hockett. Hopefully I'm even pronouncing that correctly on the show to talk about what this thing is. That's how you say it, Hockett?

Hockett. It's perfect. Absolutely.

Hockett. Obviously, André, a lot that we could talk about when it comes to this. But before we jump in, are you like the inventor of this? Are you more of a scientist who understands how it works, or where do you fit into the whole Hockett scenario?

Yeah, I'm the inventor of it. I'm the co— I'm the founder of the company. I'm the inventor of the therapy and Hockett well, of the technology, and the technology is, yeah, owned by myself.

Did you just like see pictures of people sitting in those rinky-dink little saunas with their heads sticking out and thought, oh gosh, I could do better than that? Or how did you even come up with the idea for this?

No, actually, when it was, you know, at the time when we, when I started at it, there was like dial-up internet. That was around about the 2000s, you know, when I started to think about what to do. And, yeah, we were busy with hydrotherapy at the time.

So obviously, you aren't just like an engineer who invents stuff. You were involved at some level at some kind of like a health clinic or something like that?

Yeah, so basically what I've been doing, don't think that I'm a heavy health scientist or whatever. I'm, I was, when I was a boy at school, I was just asking a lot of questions and how it happened was I was involved in hydrotherapy. It was basically a product that you converted your bath into a spa. And I really started to see how people's lives got, you know, transformed, um, just with something as simple as hydrotherapy.

By the way, what is hydrotherapy?

Well, hydrotherapy is basically when you use water as a medium to massage the body, but you can also use it to induce cytothermia. You can, you know, it's like a spa bath in this case. So, what we were doing basically is to take water, hot water in there, and you can use aromatherapy oils. To give you different kinds of effects, you know, and provoke different kinds of physiological responses from the body with different kinds of oils. And the main effect here was to reduce stress and to enhance blood circulation.

So you were doing that with like patients or running a clinic or how were you using hydrotherapy?

No, I was literally selling these devices.

You were selling them to like people, businesses, etc.?

I would literally go— so I wasn't at this stage, I was in Bible school. So in a week I go to Bible school, in weekends I go to a flea market. I have had this whole thing set up and then I, you know, I had a bath that was transparent and I had like a frog swimming in this bath to attract the people's children, and they would look at this thing and they'd be mesmerized with the bubbles because it's, you know, it's really mesmerizing.

So you're like learning how to baptize people via the Bible at school and then baptizing them in a different way on weekends. Absolutely.

Yeah, so basically—

Alright, I got it.

At the point, you know, when I saw that, so then, you know, I will get people and I will see what, you know, kind of hear what is the things that they are dealing with. And then during the week I'll go and I'll put this stuff in their bath and I'll, you know, kind of run through their stuff and tell them how it worked. And then later I'll phone them up and say, hey, how did things go? And, you know, they'll go like, Andre, you cannot believe, you know, I was dealing with this, this, this, this issue. I feel amazing. And kind of through that, I was going like, wow, that is absolutely fantastic to hear because it— the kind of results that people got from it was so profound that at that stage then I kind of decided that this is where I'm going to devote my life's work. You know, I want to help people and I want to give them the tools to normal people to help them to, you know, become better and to actually help have this tool to, you know, to sort out some issues and to live a better life or optimal life. Athletes. We were dealing— I've gone to old age homes, and that was the most amazing thing where I learned a lot of things to work with these people. So I would go there, and I will do demonstrations, and then, you know, they were dealing with a lot of issues, mobility.

And, Andre, when you're, when you're talking about doing demonstrations, are you talking about the hydrotherapy still, or had you created something different?

No, I'm talking now about hydrotherapy. So, I would do the same thing as what I did in the, you know, in the markets. I would basically have this transparent bath. I will go out there and show them how it work. I will kind of show them that how basically just work on a default protocol where you can sit with hot water, you put some different essential oils in there, how the mass— how the heat will kind of, you know, enhance and optimize their hormones, their neurotransmitters, their enzymes in their body. And then, you know, basically with heat, what it does is it will dilate your blood vessels and then it starts to flow. So, all of a sudden, when they now start to, you know, when they now start to spend time in the bath and the heat and they start thinking about it and they, you know, and they had this massage coming and the blood circulation is enhanced, a lot of the issues and, you know, mobility issues, you know, just brain fog, a lot of stuff was dealt with, pain. A lot of people came back and said, you know, I've never slept so well in my life.

Yeah. And by the way, hot-cold contrast, you know, hyperthermia and then some type of hypothermic setting, that's been used for a long time, you know, as you know, for athletic injuries and now increasingly for things like blood sugar and production of heat shock proteins and vasoconstrictive vasodilation. It sounds to me like at the time, you were kind of harnessing a lot of the benefits of the hyperthermic component.

Exactly.

And then, it sounds like with things like essential oils combining that with some of the phenolic compounds we might find in nature to get a one-two combo of aromatherapy and hydrotherapy kind of.

Exactly. So, kind of what we wanted to do is a lot of people were, you know, you want to induce their artificial fever. So, a lot of people at the time, you know, well, we all do it. If you have a fever, people trying to kind of inhibit your fever, So, you kind of train your body against itself where fever is your natural mechanism that's placed in your body, you know, to, to kind of deal with immune issues with viruses, pathogens, or detoxification. If you feel bad, your, you know, fever is there to ramp up all the different systems in the body, your blood circulation, your nutrition delivery, your oxygen delivery, your hormones, neurotransmitters, everything work at optimal level when you get around about 100 to 104°F.

Yeah. I'm glad you specified, by the way, because for anybody listening in, safety factor, yes, sometimes a fever needs to run its course to do what it needs to do to clean up your body. But, if you're pushing 104+ get to a hospital because that can get pretty bad for the brain particularly. One of the reasons I know this, André, is I did about 2 weeks at a clinic out in the Alps called the Swiss Mountain Clinic. All sorts of different IVs and phototherapies and special diets. They work with a lot of people with things like cancer, Lyme, mold, mycotoxin, et cetera. But they do hyperthermia there specifically for cancer.

Yeah.

And I tried it. This was during the heat wave in Italy and Switzerland. Like, 4 years ago. So, it was already probably about 108 degrees outside. They had me ride on a bike for a half hour in a hot room before getting into the hyperthermia unit. A little bit similar to the Hawkett, your head sticking out, but everything else was a little different. You have a rectal probe to monitor body temperature. There's a nurse there dousing your head with icy cold water throughout so that as your body temperature rises, your brain doesn't overheat. It was horribly uncomfortable. I mean, for example, we'll explain what the Hawket is later on, but I'm in the Hawket like 30 minutes. I think it maxes out at 45 minutes. I was in that hyperthermia unit, which was actually hotter than the Hawket for like 4 hours, just about passed out in the thing. And apparently they do this with cancer patients on a regular basis because of the cytotoxic effects of heat on cancer cells. But, Long story short is, yes, you can induce a fever or allow a fever to run its course, but once it gets above 104, you should probably start to seek out some medical assistance pretty quickly.

Exactly. And, the reason why it is, if you go over 104, most of enzymes start to deform. It loses its ability to catalyze. So, deform, you damage it, and then all processes, I mean, the same goes for hormones and neurotransmitters. It deform and it get damaged permanently.

Yeah. And it's hard to put an egg back together after you've scrambled it.

Exactly. You can't put that guy back together once it's done. So yeah, that's actually, um, one of the main things. I have an interesting story, uh, to tell you about, uh, um, well, let me first tell you what they're trying to, what's the difference then if you're talking about that you have done now where they do maybe cancer treatments. And where you have HOCUT, where you actually basically just an immune modulation, etc., etc. So what they then are trying to do is they're actually trying to treat an issue through trying to inhibit the tumor growth, they're trying to break down the tumor which happen with secretion of too many growth factors, etc., etc. But the main thing, difference between that kind of hypothermia and HOCUT is HOCUT is not there to treat anything. It's basically just to get the body, all the responses in one time to, you know, to just work together and to, for half an hour, uh, you can do more, but it becomes a little bit of a stretch and just to kickstart your immune system, get everything to work together in harmony in one at one specific time so that your immune responses that come from that can work naturally to create wellness, to create all kinds of physiological responses. Yeah.

We're getting ahead of ourselves here though because I want to hear how you went from high— what's it called? Hydrotherapy to inventing the HAWKETT. So, how'd this thing come to be?

Alright. So, basically then what happened is I came to learn about ozone and being in South Africa at that stage, which is in, I'm talking about 2000, 2002. 2000, I started to, it started to get onto my radar and then 2002, I really started to research ozone. And like I said, we were using dial-up internet. It took me like 5 minutes just to, you know, change from one site to another.

Yeah. And then if somebody, if somebody picks up the phone in the same house, then you gotta start over.

Oh, mad, no. Yes. No. So, so it took hours and hours to research. And at that stage, there weren't a lot of stuff on the internet. And now me being like a normal enthusiast, health enthusiast, that's seen how people's lives have been changed naturally, you know, with some— with hydrotherapy. I was looking at this and I was just seeing, okay, but this ozone really seems very interesting. And then I started to research how it work, and I wasn't a scientist, so I didn't know how to break all of it down, how to make something of it. But I was just, in my heart I knew this was what, you know, this is the key, this is what, what's my calling, where I'm going. So anyway, so I'm going through all of this and eventually I think to myself, I need to now learn all about ozone therapy and if I wanna go to learn about it, they have classes in Germany, which I didn't have the money at the time. And that would be through Renate Wiebahn, Dr. Renate Wiebahn, her father is Hans there. Which actually quantified ozone for the first time in the '50s to use it as a medicine. And then there was only two guys in South Africa. The one was Dr. Ford, and he was retired, and the other one was Dr. Peter Essex Clarke, and he was a homeopath. And he was doing medical home, you know, ozone therapy. So I remember I was phoning him and I said to him, I got him on the phone, I said to him, Doc, I, My name is Andre. I, you know, I'm working on hydrotherapy, but I'm actually got ozone on my radar and I really am interested in it. Can you please teach me also how to do it? I said, I will, you know, work in your clinic for you and you can just teach me and I'll, you know, I'll work for free and you teach me whenever you're doing stuff. And he said, Andre, no, no, no, I'm not teaching. We're busy. You know, we have patients, this, whatever. I said to him, okay, Doc, I really need to tell you one thing. You are the only guy in South Africa that's working with ozone that I can find on the internet or in the Yellow Pages at that stage, you know, that can help me. So I said to him, Doc, I'm going to tell you what, I'm going to phone you next week again. Please just think about it and don't feel pressured, but I'm going to phone you next week again and see if you can do it. So anyway, I phoned him the next week again. He said, got him on the phone again, said, oh, Andre, you again. I said, yes, Doc, how's things going? She said, Andrew, yeah, no, Andrew, hey, listen, I've been thinking about it and yes, I definitely cannot do it. It's just something that we don't do. And no, I wouldn't know how to do, you know, how to train people. And, you know, things are just fast-paced. So I need to, you know, I really need to, I mean, I come, but it's interesting that you ask, but no, thank you. So I said, Doc, okay, I'm going to do, I'm actually, sir, thank you very much, but I'm going to phone you next week again. I'm going to ask you again.

You're reminding me of my mom always used to tell me, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. And that's actually served me pretty well in life. Sounds like your mom told you a variant of the same thing.

Exactly, exactly. So anyway, I found him the next week and he was actually quite surprised. So I found him again and he said, ah, wow, you know, I'm actually starting to like you, but really I cannot be it. So I said to him, so, Doc, here's what I will do. I will mow the lawn, I will do whatever you want me to do. I'll work, I'll scrape your floors, I'll wash your toilets. Just please teach me, you know, when you're working and just teach me the basics of it at least. And he said, Andre, I really, really cannot do it. Long story short, I phoned him the 6th week and he just gone like, he said, Andre, you know what, you are so persistent, I have decided. I'm going to help you. So then he said to me, so, all right, tell me about yourself. What do you do? You know, what are you? Are you a doctor? Are you, you know, homeopath? I said, no, no, doctor. He said, homeopath? I said, no. He said, so what do you do? Are you nurse? I said, do you have any qualifications? Nurse? Ambulance? I said, Doc, I have nothing. I'm like a guy that want to learn about ozone. He says, André, no, no, no, no, no. He says, I absolutely cannot do it. Just go back to your daytime job. And that was like, actually, it was a tear running through, you know, tears was running out of my eyes. But that was when my, when my switch gone on. And then I realized I'm going to do this if it's so great. I don't know, of all the stories and that I heard about it and testimonies that I've seen that people are talking about it. Then, then my part in the, in the world would be to actually bring this to people doing it at home that can help themselves and to lay it out in a form that everybody can use it. Where, you know, families can use it, mothers can help, can use it to their children, whatever the case might be. Anyway, so that's then when I started to profusely look for ways that normal people without a medical degree can administer ozone in ways, you know, that can be physiologically and biologically beneficial. So anyway, so I've gone through the internet and one day I found a guy, he had like a wooden sauna, Dr. Donskoch in Mexico. And this guy was, he, I mean, he had some stuff going on. He already had the allopathic fraternity against him because he was, you know, doing all kinds of alternative stuff. So I was just looking at this thing and I was just going and it was just like, this is it. And I started to, you know, to learn about, I already knew how essential oils get absorbed. Through the skin and how things work. And, you know, Transdermal, it's absolutely sound that you can do it. And then as I've gone and I first made my first sauna in South Africa, it was a wooden sauna. I've made it out of pine wood. And, you know, like Tim, because I surfed, and I just thought to myself, wow, this thing is— I wouldn't buy it from somebody if it's looking like this. You know, it's not a product.

Yeah.

But anyway, so—

Looks like a real, like, DIY type of product.

Yeah, no, it just didn't do it, you know? You know, you're not going to be impressed when you see it. It might do amazing things, but yeah, it's not a product. Anyway, so I was then looking at, um, all kinds of stuff, and I found a person in South Africa that had, uh, fiberglass saunas. So we started burning, breaking, and I said to him, okay, I need some molds, and we started making some molds. And I then, you know, found another electro engineer that was making ozone generators at the time. So at this stage, ozone technology, and still today, but not as much as what it was back in the days. I mean, like, you'll pay €100K, €200K for you know, ozone generator.

And I'm assuming kind of like what's going through your head right now is you already knew from your previous experience in hydrotherapy that heat can induce better transdermal absorption of certain compounds. And you also knew that ozone was very therapeutic. So what you're thinking is, how could I somehow combine ozone with heat to induce like a really big transdermal absorption of ozone?

You're absolutely on the money there and you nailed it. And so this is basically when we have gone. So we've now— so, so at that stage then, what I've now done is I've now tried to just get the product going so that it works well. You know, I need to get an ozone generator that is efficient and, you know, effective enough for a sauna. And then I need to get a sauna that, you know, that's working normally so that we can start putting this together. And it was quite primitive at the time.

Yeah. And by the way, you're also leaving out an important fact. You aren't supposed to breathe in ozone, at least not in concentrated amounts. So there's that piece too. Like, you can't have your whole body inside of a sauna, right?

And to add insult to injury, then you have that problem as well. So now you need to sit in a sauna where you cannot breathe ozone, but you wanted to, you know, to expose to a largest piece of, you know, surface of your skin. That you can. So, we then had this sauna where you sit in it, we had to close it with towels at this sta— at that stage. And it worked quite well because once, you know, ozone gets introduced into the sauna, it breaks down quite fast. So, it breaks down to hydrogen peroxide, but you still have this, you know, large quantity of ozone that you have to deal with. So, we closed it off. And then, you know, you— that would prevent you from, from breathing the ozone, but there would still be some steam. And if you haven't been closed properly, you know, it would be like, you'll get some ozone. And at that stage also, with the quantities of ozone that we used was, it's not that high, but you know, that was where we started and it was quite effective. So anyway, we had that and then, The next step on that was actually to get to Contrailors where we— I mean, like, I was looking at this stuff and I was just thinking to myself, wow, this is primitive, actually. This is amazing. It works. I mean, like, it gives you amazing responses. And you get, like, you get a lot more effective wellness responses than what you would get with hydrotherapy. But it's a different kind of a feeling. So everybody is also not, you know, for Saunas. Some people feel like, they already think to themselves they're gonna be claustrophobic. So then we would put them in and then they would say like that, "Hey, just do yourself a favor, go, you know, sit in it. I just gonna close it, man, just see." And then they have their head out, so I'm saying, "Oh, oh, oh, yes, I don't feel claustrophobic because my head is completely out." Yeah. Anyway, so then we just gone and we started to work on the controllers. And, and one of the things that we have done there is, uh, people were always worried when I read about, you know, stuff on the internet. They're always worried about people with all, you know, cardiac conditions and ozone or whatever, and saunas.

I'm assuming, I'm assuming they weren't worried about cardiac conditions and exposure to ozone or in response to exposure from ozone, but from heat.

They were more from the heat because now you're sitting with a guy— you know, he has some cardiac problems and we're ramping up his pulse rates. And what's more is you have ozone, which is basically breaking up blood clots and kind of, you know, helping your blood flow and everything is feeling normal. So these have been quite a concern for— yeah, it is quite a concern for people with kind of issues with thrombosis, etc.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so the next thing that we then thought to ourselves is, okay, how are we gonna get a heart rate monitor into this thing that if somebody have some kind of cardiac issues, that you can work it into your, um, controller where you now can digitally start to set your— and this was back in the days, right? I'm talking like, um, 2002. The first one was only built in 2004. That it was actually standing, you know, standing there. So, and so, so then we started to work on with heart— they found heart rate monitors that you can put around your chest. And then later we moved to the heart rate monitors you can put around the fingers, but you could actually, when you set a certain pulse rate, you can actually switch off the— you can abandon the whole session and it will not start again.

Built-in safety mechanism in which if you're sitting inside this sauna, your arms are obviously inside of it, so you're not going to get out of there super quickly, even though you're typically supervised. If you're using a Hawkit in like a medical clinic, if you're wearing a heart rate monitor and there's any type of complications in terms of an elevated heart rate, there's an automatic switch off.

Yeah. And you should think to yourself, right? So in the— at this stage, I mean, like, I was the first guy on the African continent to ever build something like this, right? When that thing stood there, Nobody knew what it was. There was a, Dr. Saul Pressman, at that stage we were in Canada, right? And he was also a homeopath and he also had Plasma fire at that stage, which was also building ozone cylinders, which I then later found from him. So, everybody that looked at this and, you know, when I start to go out, I thought to myself, "Hey, I'm going to heal the world." I'm going to, you know, tell all the doctors I'm a paraplegic. First started with oncologists and they just gone like, "Dude, you are crazy. Do you even know what you are talking about?" And I also didn't, weren't that well versed at stage to even explain the mechanisms, how it worked, the physiological responses, etc., and what it does. So they just gone and everybody that I've gone to see at that stage, which was in that industry or in the medical industry at that stage, were putting the fear of God in me on how I'm going to— can kill people and, you know, dangerous and whatever. So my focus at this stage, because I'm like— my focus at this stage was then to protect people and to build safety into it. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, you know, if it was any normal person with a background that I— a kind of background that I have, They would have, I mean, like, it would have been sensible to give up. But I had this thing in me, and I knew this was what I had to do. And my family at this stage, so, so when I've been discovered in this ozone, you could have gone two ways. You can go industrial, which have really a vast range of applications. You could do it, you know, like in, in water, refiners, you could work in factories where you scrub air and pollutants, all kinds of stuff. And it's, it's big bucks because it's new. And, you know, the, the technology at that stage was you could just make a lot of money in industrial applications. But I just gone like, and I said, okay, I'm going to pursue this, you know, using ozone in human well-being, no matter what. This is what I know, this is what I want, what I'm here to do, and I'm gonna do it. So, the next thing that I was just— was always about safety. How am I gonna make this thing safe? Then you had like steps where you can make your, you know, your steam that you can take a guy with cardiovascular problems and you can just gradually have your steam come in. So, you know, that it don't induce hypothermia so fast. So, you can actually induce it slower and you can just give him a little bit of a ramp-up and you can see that, you know, his pulse rate don't go too fast and he can get the benefit of the ozone. He can get the benefit of the hypothermia and, you know, the— well, in that case, it would be a little bit more limited because it's not that um, optimized at that stage, but he still get the benefit. And as you get the benefit, every time you use it, things start to get better. And so I've just gone on and I pushed with this. And then later what happened, well, I can maybe not front-run the story, but I'll tell you what was the next step in that.

Okay.

So I've gone to, I've seen them virtually in our whole province. I've seen every oncologist, which told me, dude, you've lost it. You're gonna lose your money. You're gonna kill people. I've gone to every homeopath. They were more open. They were intrigued, but I didn't know how to explain it. So eventually I got to a point, there was a guy, um, uh, he had, uh, a company called APS, um, Herb on Liver, and he had like, He was with Microcurrent Therapy Busy, and he was a guy working at the telecom company, you know, like, doing telephone installations. So, we started this, and he actually created a huge company in South Africa where they do microcurrent, let's say then, technology for the purposes of, you know, not I'm saying things that sounds medical, but anyway, he was— it was called action potential simulation.

Yeah. With microcurrents, those are specifically an electrical frequency that is at a certain frequency that might stimulate certain functions in organs, cells, muscles, et cetera. Like, you could run a microcurrent for constipation or a microcurrent for, you know, for sports performance or a microcurrent for recovery from an injury, for example.

Absolutely correct. So basically, what will happen is with a microcurrent, you know, each frequency or wavelength has a code that a different part of your body understands.

By the way, I have to say, as you're about to explain, this is cool because folks, I've been doing the Hockett once a week and I go out to my garage and there's a little booklet besides the unit.. And I thumb through these microcurrents. The one I did last week was just some kind of a full-body feel-good sweep, but it is kind of cool because you can see, oh, they got one for knee issues, they got one for gut issues, or one for the neck. So, it is kind of fun to just hunt down some of the ones that might be what you need in the moment. So, it's a cool technology that's built into that, but go ahead.

So, basically what my point was then is I thought to myself, hey, this guy already had like his business set up and he was very well known. I mean, like he was actually the business phenomenon in South Africa because it was, you know, a telecom technician working on wires, fixing telecom telephone wires. And he started this big, huge wellness company. I got to sit with him and I started my whole thing and I, you know, I talk about healing the world and doing this or whatever. And he just gone like, Andre, you know what? Do you know that there are so many people that come in here with active oxygen and this and hydrogen peroxide and aromatics? They basically, when I say, well, they can do this and that and whatever, and there's no substantial claim for it, you know, that you can do it. And we've gone back and forth and I said, yes, but this, and I can, you know, we, We literally had an hour and a half and I was just sitting here because I knew this was my last shot that I now know about, you know, I'm going to actually get this thing to the world to speak to him because if he's not interested, I don't know where, you know, then it's going to be kind of like difficult to, to get my feet, my feet dug into the ground anyway. So I sat there with him and he just gone to me and said, Andre, no, this is not something that we are interested in. And I told him about ozone in one year. And then he said to me, Andre, and he was looking on his phone, ah, on his watch. He was saying, Andre, I really have a meeting with— his secretary came in a few times and said, listen, your next appointment is waiting. And I just sat there. I thought to myself, I said to him, okay, Prof, can I just ask you one question? He says, Andre, I need to go. I said, okay, please do me a favor, can you give me like "2 minutes." He said, "Yes, Hans, I'll give you 2 minutes, but then you need to go." I said to him, "Do you know how ozone works?" And he said, and he kind of like, "Um, no, I actually don't." I said to him, "Okay, well, this is exactly the problem." I said to him, "Basically, you have 3, you have oxygen molecule, it attract an extra oxygen molecule with a negative charge, and this extra oxygen molecule is unstable. All it wants to do," is it wants to detach from this binding here and it wants to attach to whatever is a pollutant, a virus.

Right. Basically, O3 wants to become O2 and kick off that extra oxygen.

Exactly. O3 wants to become— Yeah. Yeah. And this third atom is a negative charge. So it wants to oxidize whatever is anaerobic. And these are viruses, bacteria, parasites, etc., etc., fungi, protozoa, amoebas, the whole thing. If it's like paint on the wall, anything, right? It just wants to— dust, all and anything. So I said to him, so then it will detach from this biomolecule and it will attach itself, it will oxidize the impurity and all that you have left is you have the ozone, you have oxygen, pure. And he going like, he said, Andre, really? I said, yes. He says, and I say, and so all that this thing do is it basically clean out all the pathogens and viruses and bacteria in your body and it leaves an oxygen-rich environment. It actually oxygenate your blood. Right.

And then by the way, we should note that a lot of people are trying to achieve this right now. With blood like IV-based ozone administration, with ozone enemas, with less powerful versions. And I do this sometimes, ozone water, ozone bagging for a wound or infection, ozone oil pulling for the mouth. But, in terms of something as kind of powerful as what you've designed, usually you kind of have to go to a clinic and do the full ozone IV.

Well, let me give you an idea, right? So let's talk about something about— so what people will do is, I would say that you get your 10-pass ozone where they basically take between 100 and 200 mL of blood out in a little bottle in a vacuum, they ozonate, then they put it back. And they will do this for 10 times. So you can ozonate up to almost 2 liters of blood, right? And then you get Ozone hemoperfusion, where you literally, like, put yourself on a dialysis machine, a light machine, hemoperfusion. It'll take blood out in one limb, put it through a dialyzer, which is ozonated and exchange the ozone into the blood, and then it pumps it back into another limb, you know, like when you do dialysis. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I've done it a few times.

Yeah, and that's very powerful. It's— I would say the 10-pass is probably a better way to do that. Then you get autohemotherapy where they will take 200 milliliters in a, you know, in a blood bag and they'll take it out and they'll ozonate it and they'll just pump it back. And that's called autohemotherapy and that's systemic. All of this stuff that I'm talking about is systemic ozone administration. And they're all very invasive. But then, you get another way which is ozone rectal insufflation where you literally take a catheter with ozone concentration. You can either suck it in a syringe or you can have a syringe pump where you can take ozone, you can literally infuse it into the—

Yeah. Which I've actually done. There's been 3 weeks since I've had the Hawket that I haven't had the chance to do my weekly session. On each of those 3 weeks, I did just that. I just did like an ozone rectal insufflation, which is good, but I still think you get less than you get transdermally sitting in a unit for 30-plus minutes.

Exactly. So let me give you an idea. So the rectal insufflation will be like 2 rectal insufflation sessions will be equally as effective as 1 autoimmunotherapy session. Now, the reason why Well, we are— so we are only talking about ozone now. So HAKKAD have obviously a host of technologies that work in synergy to do it. And, I mean, like, there's literally nothing you can compare with it. You know, people ask me about hyperbaric chambers.

Yeah, because you've got the heat, right? Which, which I actually do know of a couple companies that are now doing some type of plasmapheresis or blood filtration and combining that with hyperthermia. The one that I know of is over in Vienna. So, those are few and far between, but then you're doing the heat, the ozone, the microcurrents, and we didn't even mention this yet, but I believe there's far-infrared PEMF and something called carbonic acid in there as well.

Korrekt, korrekt. Yeah.

Walk me through those as well. I know we still didn't finish up with the story of how this got invented, but I do want to make sure we touch on what each component is or what this thing has become. So, you could finish up the story with the guy at the university, but let's say we allow— let's say or make sure we allow enough time to cover these other therapies that happen when you sit inside this thing.

Do you want me to finish first? You want me to cover the therapy?

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and finish, but yeah, finish, but give us the slightly shorter version.

Long story short, so basically what happened is, so I explained it to him, then I said to him, okay, well, You know, and one thing what it does is, so basically what you're looking at is you're looking at, you know, the most powerful detoxification device at this stage. You're looking at saunas and you're looking at, you know, ozone combined with it. And basically what it does is detoxify your body. And he says, okay, so Doc, can I ask you something now? And he said, Prof, or I said to him, Prof, can I ask you something? He said, yes. I said, if you detoxify the body, will it help with degenerative diseases? And he says, yes, it will. I said, so will it help with arthritis? Yes, it will help. Will it help with asthma? Yes, it will help if you detoxify. So, will it help you with cancer? Yes, it will help you with cancer if you detoxify. And I said, so, and I gone on, he said, Andrew, you're taking it too far. It will help anything. It will help your body if it, if you detoxify your body, it will help basically with any issue that you might have in your body. I said, now, Prof, Prof, that is the most important thing. That is something that, that we've discovered now. This is the most powerful at this stage, as primitive as it was, detoxification device that you can find at this stage. And he gone like under, I said to him, so even when you sit on towel, you can see different colors of, um, excretion that come out, you know, that's get—

Yeah, I know, it's kind of gross. I've like, I've gotten green and brown in there before. Yeah, it's a little gross.

Exactly. You know what's funny? We once got a person with gray excretion and we were like, never seen it before. And I said like, okay, so tell us about you. And they were actually in Chernobyl, living close to Chernobyl. There was a lot of radiation.

Oh, geez.

Yeah, back in the days. And they, uh, so yeah, it was, uh, they were then saying that, you know, it's got basically a relation with, um, radiation. So anyway, and, and that's basically one of the things that we will touch on as well, you know, with the fundamentals of HAWKET is why actually then HAWKET? Why choose this route apart from the fact that we were looking for an administration that can be just for, you know, normal people without having to have health professionals to do it. But also, why did everything— how did everything came about in this sequence? Right.

And granted, for those of you listening in, it's pretty few and far between those of you who are going to have one in your home. Like, these are big, expensive, fancy devices that usually take some supervision using. You see these in health clinics a lot, though. And I also have a lot of biohackers who are listening in who probably would want one of these for their house. But stepping back and looking at what else came to be integrated into this, I want to kind of lightning round a little bit here. We talked about ozone and the benefits of that, especially for detoxification. A lot of people know about heat, and I've done a lot on saunas. Obviously, as we said, when you heat the skin, you could increase transdermal absorption of anything. And by the way, I add essential oils to the Hocket when I use it just to get that also But then you've got this CO2 unit mixed, not just the oxygen, but the CO2. It's my understanding that that is for the, is it the carbonic acid component?

So yes, and that's one of the most interesting and most important components of what makes ARKID ARKID, right? So basically what you'll do is like carbonic acid is formed Naturally in the body, it is when H2O water and CO2 form and you get H2CO3. Now, a lot of people think that the CO2 in your body, you know, is like a waste product. But actually, you will die just as fast with the, you know, with a lack of CO2 than you'll die of, you know, lack of oxygen.

Yeah. And by the way, I did a big podcast on the benefits of carbon dioxide inhalation and carbon dioxide therapy with Anders Ohlsen. I'll link to it in the show notes, which are going to be at bengreenfieldlife.com/hocattpodcast, by the way, H-O-C-A-T-T-Podcast. Yeah, a lot of people are familiar with the benefits of ozone but not the benefits of carbonic acid or carbon dioxide.

Exactly. Okay, so let me clarify why I say you would digest as fast without a lack of carbon oxide, as with oxygen. So when you hyperventilate, what happens is your blood vessels contract and the blood supply to your brain gets cut off and you pass out, you faint. And how do they get you to actually, you know, come by again? They let you breathe into a plastic bag. The idea behind that is is to rebreathe the CO2. So, and the reason why that is, is that first of all, as your— so your mitochondria is what you— you'll take one glucose molecule, 6 oxygen molecules, and you'll— it will go into the mitochondria, it will make you 38 or 30— between 32, 38 ATP. Byproduct is CO2. Now, that get excreted, excreted, and that is carried by your red blood cells back to your lungs, right? But on the way, you— it's only a very small percentage of the CO2 that actually gets exhaled. A lot of that gets with— through a carbonic anhydrase enzyme, will catalyze where you get the CO2 and it will mix the water and the blood and it will form H2CO3. And basically the mechanisms what it does, with a carbonic acid, the two main physiological mechanisms that it does is will relax your blood vessels. So it's almost like niacin.

So, so basically H2CO3 generated by carbon dioxide is the molecular form of carbonic acid.

Exactly.

And carbonic acid has a vasodilatory effect.

Exactly. So it have a vasodil— vasodilator and dilation to the blood vessels, but it also have a very important function where it has the Bohr effect. And how it does it, the Bohr effect is basically where your red blood cells have, you know, these sites, binding sites, where the oxygen will bind to the hemoglobin, right? And they, what they call is the red blood cell tight syndrome. And basically, if there's not enough carboxylic acid, on the red blood cell here, it becomes very alkaline. Now, I'm not saying your blood should be acidic, but for this binding site, it wants to relax. And to take out oxygen, it needs to be a little bit acidic with carbonic acid. So this carbonic anhydrase enzyme sits on your red blood cells and it catalyzes so that it can basically also regulate the pH of your blood. And it will relax it so that the oxygen can get uploaded very easily and then downloaded easily into, at certain levels. So it carries it into a cell and then it drops your oxygen. And then it will pick up CO2 again and then it will carry it out. Bring it back. And carbonic acid is responsible for, first of all, for the vasodilation, dilation, but it's also responsible for relaxing this binding sites on the red blood cell so that it can easily uptake oxygen and download and then carry the CO2 and catalyze that with— make it carbonic acid, bring it back, and then the rest of the CO2 that's not catalyzed to exhale it.

If I could summarize real quick, what you're saying is that by introducing carbonic acid via transdermal absorption of that while you're sitting in the Hawket, You're opening up blood vessels, but you're also shifting the tissue oxygenation in such a manner that there is more oxygen leaving the bloodstream and getting delivered to tissue.

I think 100% correct. So let me tell you something interesting. In Japan, they did a study where they actually had people in carbonic acid foot baths. Basically what it is, is it's called, you know, It's sparkling water foot baths at 37, at 98 degrees Fahrenheit. And they would take these guys with diabetic, it was diabetic foot ulcer patients. They'll take them and put them, their feet, they measure with a Doppler the blood flow. And they put their feet into the Spa bars for 3 minutes, and they will have an increase of blood flow of 257% in just 3 minutes.

Wow. That's incredible. I notice when I open up the dashboard on the HAWKIT before I run a session, I can select the microcurrent frequency, which we talked about. I can select the temperature, the amount of time, but then there's a screen that says CO2 settings. And I can set that anywhere from 3 to 8 minutes. I am assuming that that 3 to 8 minute range that I choose is how long I would be getting the carbonic acid exposure.

Correct. So you can— so obviously with it, you know, dilating the blood vessels, if you have somebody that's having low blood pressure, you— I mean, like they can faint. That's a contraindication for giving, administering carbonic acid. So, you literally will faint because you don't have enough pressure. It will dilate your blood vessels. Immediately, your blood—

your pressure will drop. Hence, the option to use the carbonic acid component that you built in. So, you continue to think about the safety piece.

Exactly. Everything here is about safety. So, your computer, you have like a long list of stuff. Look, if something— if you have this issues going on, don't use the carbonic acid, don't use the PMF, don't use the microcurrent., and I'll learn whatever the case might be.

You guys are very helpful at sending me a lot of, a lot of videos and a lot of manuals, and I went through them pretty, pretty intensively before diving in. Um, I want to, I want to make sure— I know there's so many places we could go, but I want to make sure we cover some things that I think are just hypercritical here. Um, if you don't mind. No, no, there's, there's a silver knob, I think, on the right side that says FIR. Now I am assuming that's far infrared. But if I just turn that up, is it producing far infrared inside the unit during the entire session?

Exactly. So it will come through the wall of the chamber in the back. You don't see it. It's a wave coming through. And the reason— well, that's where the interesting— basically what it does is the far infrared component of it. So steam will give you a much faster response for core body temperature. And pulse rate, right? Because it's more dense. So it— so if I have to put you into a fine fluid sauna, I can give— I can— if I take the parameters of pulse rate and core body temperature, I can reach it in less than half the time. I can do more with steam than what I can do with fine fluid. However, interesting, fine fluid does, right? This fine fluid is known to structure water in your body. So, And what that does is it opens up the bonding angle of the water, you know, the H2O molecules, so that it can structure the water. And what it does is make this beautiful— it's not clustered anymore, it opens it up and it becomes structured to form like this, hexagonal structures where it can envelope heavy metals, it can envelope toxins or any kinds of pollutants that's in your blood. It can envelope it, it can easily, it can easily penetrate cells, but it can also then take some toxins and what you call, you say, chelate the toxins. It carries it out. And it's easy for your body then to sweat out or to go through your liver, your kidneys, and to get rid of that.

Ben Greenfield: Okay. I'm seeing kind of the big picture here because I have this protocol I do. Gary Brecka introduced it to me. It's called the Superhuman Protocol where I actually lay on a PEMF mat, pulsed electromagnetic currents, to open and close cell membranes and improve transdermal or not transdermal, transcellular absorption across the membrane of the cell. I then exercise on a bike, breathing oxygen, and finish with red light therapy. And so you're getting a big increase in ATP production and oxygen absorption. I'm thinking this is kind of similar because I've got the heat, which is increasing transdermal absorption of the ozone and carbonic acid. I've got the carbonic acid, which is increasing vasodilation for better delivery of oxygen to tissues. I've got far infrared to actually structure the water,, so there's better nutrient delivery in and metabolic waste out. And then I've got, we haven't talked about this very much, there's these PEMF plates in there and the PEMF is allowing for the opening and the closing of the cell membranes to further accelerate the process. So basically, this is stacking like 5 different modalities, all of which have a direct impact specifically on detoxification, getting stuff out of the body.

Yeah, you're 100% correct. And basically, I don't know, so Gary uses the HOCAD as well and he also uses, I think maybe our PEMF PMF, Matt.

Yeah, you're right, he is. He's one of the few friends I have who has a Hockett also, yeah.

Yeah. So, Guy is a huge believer in Hockett and he uses the PMF. And the PMF, well, there's some interesting things that we need to talk about that as well. So, you have exactly what you— basically what you're saying, you got all of this technology stacking each other where the one potentiate the other. You need electricity, you need blood flow, you need nutrient absorption, you need your enzymes to work, You need your hormones to be balanced. You need neurotransmitters to fire to give signals in your nervous system. There's something I want to come back to that's very interesting. I think you'll find it very, very interesting about the carbonic acid. The other very important thing that make a huge difference between anything else that people know in the wellness industry is that, you know, when people go to bed, they are tired, they, They go to bed, they get like a good 8 hours sleep, they wake up the next morning and they still tired, right? Yeah. A lot of that's got to do, okay, there's a lot of different reasons for that matter, but a lot of that got to do with your central nervous system or your autonomic nervous system where people are chronically, you know, had like suffering from stress. So, what happened is they get sympathetic. So, your autonomic nervous system got sympathetic and parasympathetic. The parasympathetic is your rest and digest part, which is supposed to be dominant. Most of your day should be rest and digest. And then you have your sympathetic, which is fight and flight, right? So when you, over a prolonged period of time, have stress, and it can be any kind of stress, your, your body doesn't know, your autonomic nervous system doesn't know if it's your mother, your grand— your mother-in-law visiting, you know, standing at the, the, or if it's a tiger or whatever, they're just there and it seems like a real stress and it's over a prolonged period. So, now your autonomic nervous system have sympathetic dominant. What your body cannot effectively maintain or regenerate itself at night when you sleep, if you are now sympathetic dominant.

Yeah. The analogy I use is, try working out with a big meal in your stomach. You're trying to combine a sympathetic and a parasympathetic activity, and the two do not combine well.

Exactly, 100% correct. So basically what— so carbonic acid is your body's natural mechanism to try and get all of that sorted out. The problem is stress, right? Is when you, um, when, when you have chronic stress, you, you breathe more shallow, your chest cavity closes, and you don't inhale that, you know, properly anymore. So now, that's where your, why your blood pressure, you know, increase, it gets higher, because your carbonic acid in your body from your breathing got altered because of stress, right? So carbonic acid is actually supposed to regulate it, but if you don't breathe properly, you don't have that mechanism to work. So what could— so what Haku does is, this is why CO2 comes in the beginning. It first of all dilates your blood vessels, it relaxes your binding sites, it increases your blood flow. But it now put your— sedate your central nervous system, so your parasympathetic nervous system come up and your sympathetic come down, your fight and flight, it starts to regulate it. And papers show that over a prolonged period of using carbonic acid, it will turn that balance back for you. Because if you're a chronic stressor, doesn't matter. You can see, we, we see it all the time where you have people, they had, you have two of the people almost with exactly the same issues, right? And you do exactly the same things with them. One guy respond phenomenally, the other guy just It's not working. And the reason for that is, the reason for that is, is that, you know, stress and guilt and all kinds of stuff, you know, that's going on in their daily life. But then when you add the carbonic acid, when you add now the CO2 and ARCAID, you get all these physiological responses. It kind of brings back that— it first sorts out your autonomic nervous system. So, but now tonight when you sleep for the first time, your body is actually able to effectively maintain and repair itself.

I sleep like a baby. As a matter of fact, I have a red light, like a red light bed, and I go in there, like fall asleep in the red light bed after the HAWKETT. And then I've got energy later on, but there's like 1 or 2 hours afterwards where I'm like literally just like zombie mode. And I should mention, by the way, you just made a very good case also for mouth taping. One of the reasons that mouth taping helps a lot of people sleep is mild carbon dioxide retention during sleep and a little bit of parasympathetic nervous system activation. Okay, so I know we could go on for hours. I've mentioned a few times I do this once a week. What do you think about that as far as timing or frequency?

You know what I would do? I mean, like, optimally, if you do it twice a week, that would be like really, really great. Uh, yeah, twice a week is really, um, it's the sweet spot, right? So you get people that do more, but I would say twice a week is really— 3, 3, 3 is, I mean, like for some people that really want to, uh, you know, they push it for time, but normally what you want to do is twice is perfect. And once is for maintenance, and it really packs a punch.

Hey, so as it turns out, there was some kind of a worldwide Starlink outage that forced André and I, as we were just getting ready, as you probably heard, to wrap up, to lose each other. So anyways, if you want the show notes, you can go to bengreenfieldlife.com/podcast. Hockett Podcast. It's spelled H-O-C-A-T-T, Hockett. BenGreenfieldLife.com/HockettPodcast. And I also have another little message here from André. Thanks so much for enjoying this episode. Very curious if any of you get a chance to try this thing out for yourself. It's pretty mind-blowing. But let's hear from André here.

Hey, Ben, we're back. And yeah, I thought I'll give you guys a very Nice background here of South Africa and Still Bay. Yeah, I just want to thank you very much for a very, very wonderful podcast and, you know, allowing me to share the roots of where Hockett came from. And I think a conclusion, just basically what I want to say is that, you know, Hockett is a device that takes all the physiological responses that the body actually does itself itself and use technologies that optimize and potentiate those responses that the body already wanna do to repair and maintain and optimize and, you know, give you the best optimal function that a person can get. And it gives you that and And that's the end of it. And I think nobody argues that it is the most powerful wellness device in the world. And I think the way, you know, that we've gone about it is just, you know, evidence of why it is so powerful. So I want to thank you and I wish you all the best of luck with on your side. And yeah, nice to see to all the listeners. Thank you for for listening. We really appreciate the opportunity, and, uh, God bless.

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