From Depression, Addiction & Low Energy to Becoming a Total Breathwork Ninja: How to Unlock the *Transformative* POWER of Breath, Cold Therapy & Sweat Lodges with Michael Nuss and Maximilian Freiler

My name is Ben Greenfield. And on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

The Wim Hof Method is a very simple, a very simple constellation of 3 components. Like we said, the breathwork, the cold exposure, and the mindset. So, the way how you are actually doing it. And I think what we experience in these retreats is also the power of the community. So, the doing these things together like a cold exposure, like a real physical challenge, or going into very vulnerable states like in the breathwork together with a bunch of people. This is where really, I think just from the experience, the magic is happening.

Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this.

Ben Greenfield: Well, it has been years and years and years. I don't know how long since I interviewed Wim Hof. A lot of people now know who Wim Hof is. Even when I interviewed him years ago, he was pretty popular as the cold and breathwork and immune system reinvention guru. Well, it turns out, you know, I also don't think this is any secret. I've been doing breathwork and cold plunging for a long time. And even before I met Wim and interviewed him on my podcast, I'd been swimming a lot in cold water without realizing I was doing cryotherapy and cold thermogenesis. I was just training for triathlon and jumping in frigid rivers and lakes because I had to, not because it was trendy or cool or anything like that. And kind of the same for breathwork. I was just doing it to enhance my lung capacity and VO2 max and inspiratory and expiratory muscle strength for competition. But since then, I've learned a lot more about the science of breathwork, the science of cold. I've done a lot of podcasts about it, but I'm doing a special podcast on this whole topic today for two reasons. First, this is just absolutely great information for anybody. I've been training my own sons in cold and breathwork since they were very young, just getting them very comfortable being cold, getting into cold plunges, tweaking their physiology and their psychology with breathwork. And I really think that it's one of the best things that a human being can have a working knowledge of. In addition, later this year in December, I am going to be in Germany taking a small select group of individuals, possibly you if you're listening in or watching, on an actual retreat, a Wim Hof retreat in Germany, in the mountains of Germany. And you're going to learn a lot more about that on this podcast as well because my guests are going to be hosting that retreat along with me. They're Michael Neuss and Maximilian Freiler. And Michael and Maximilian have hosted retreats before in Germany, in Austria, in Poland on breathwork, on cold exposure, on mindset, even things like sweat lodges and apnea training and movement. And Michael has written a book, Alive: The Real Power of Ice Bathing. I'm going to let him tell you his story. He's now one of the most active Wim Hof instructors in all of Europe, hosting around 20 retreats a year. So, we're working with the best of the best on this retreat that we have coming up in December. And then, Maximilian is also a leading Wim Hof instructor and has a pretty unique path himself in the realm of personal and spiritual development. Originally coming from the field of finance and investment banking. And now, he's done a lot of study with people like Laird Hamilton and Ido Portal, and of course, Wim Hof also. So, stay tuned to this podcast for two reasons. If you want to learn more about breathwork and cold and how you can use it, and if you want to join me and Max and Michael in Germany, December 11th through the 15th. All the shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com/WimHof. Wim Hof Podcast. That's bengreenfieldlife.com/wimhoffpodcast if you want to access anything, get into the retreat, check out more details, et cetera. So, Max, Michael, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Ben, for the nice introduction.

Yeah. I'm excited to talk to you guys. And I guess, you know, I realize that you each probably have your own personal story even though you're sitting, as we established before we started recording so that we can get both of you in the video. Awkwardly close to each other. For today's show, I don't think that you both have the same background story when it comes to how you got into all this. So, I'll let you guys choose who wants to go first, but I'd love to hear kind of how you just discovered this whole idea of Wim Hof, breathwork, cold, et cetera.

Yeah. I mean, we are close right now together, but we also are close in everyday life because we work a lot together. And actually, we met in the instruction program of the Wim Hof Academy.

Well, I should clarify, by the way, before you keep going, you got to introduce yourself. You got to say who's who.

My name is Michael. And yes, you're Max. And yes, I got into this whole thing because actually I was struggling myself at the time I discovered the Wim Hof Method. I was working as a social worker in Hamburg. It's a big city, very crowded. And as a social worker, I had a lot of stress and I did not have a healthy lifestyle at all. And with the time, my energy levels were decreasing and my vitality was just going down. And I started to develop a depression. And I was already at the point where I realized I really have to do something about this because I don't want to live like this. So I was already trying, you know, like going into nature. I did a therapy and and yoga and stuff like this. And then this time I saw Wim Hof on YouTube and I saw his vitality. I saw him with a red skin on the top of the mountain, you know, and I thought I also want this, this unblocked aliveness, this vitality. So I became a Wim Hof instructor. I started practicing it for myself. And this whole journey of personal development was skyrocketed by this. Because I believe if you activate the vitality, everything else becomes easier. And so I changed a lot in my life. I changed in the outside world, like where I live. I live now in the mountains, in the nature. I'm married now. I have much healthier relationships, but also, and maybe even more importantly, I changed a lot on the inside. And yeah, also here, the Wim Hof Method helped me tremendously. I would never have believed it's possible to feel I feel today, 8 years ago when this whole journey started. And now I live in Germany in the southern area in the Alps, in the Bavarian Alps, and there I host most of my retreats.

And how about you, Max?

Yeah, so my journey with the Wim Hof Method started 7 years ago, actually in the US. I was in a very small surfer town in Trestles, and in a very random moment, someone showed me this breathing technique. And I didn't know anything about Wim Hof. I didn't know anything about breathwork. I just heard or tried a little bit with meditation. And I remember this moment clearly. It was really like a door opener to my inside world. And then I realized that there is a lot to discover inside. And I realized also after the breathwork session that, whoa, that the way I felt, also the way I felt my body, the way I could hold my breath, It was just so obvious that it's something really very powerful happened. And in this time I was already, I was still pursuing this path of, yeah, becoming, yeah, this investment banking career path. I invested a lot of time, a lot of money in all of that. And then, whoa, I started realize that I completely actually ignored what's going on inside of myself. And really this, the Wim Hof Method is like, I always describe it as like a sledgehammer. To the inside world. And it was what I needed to kind of, yeah, wake up a little bit and also start realizing that everything happens inside of myself. And from there on, my life just changed 180 degrees. And today, I'm, yes, a lot of other things. Of course, I studied in the meantime, but the Wim Hof Method was for me really just this door opener that I needed.

Well, I know that there's been a lot of controversy lately about the Wim Hof Method. And, I'd actually love to get into that in a little bit. There was even an article that came out just a few days ago that was very juicy and very controversial when it comes to a lot of people who have questions about the safety of the Wim Hof Protocol. But, before we even tackle any of that, how would you actually describe the Wim Hof Method to people who aren't familiar with it?

So, the Wim Hof Method was developed by Wim Hof. He's a Dutch guy. And he holds 26 Guinness World Records and he did all kinds of crazy stunts, has the longest ice bath. He was swimming under the ice the longest distance. He ran a marathon in the desert without drinking water and more stuff like this. But at one point also the science got interested in him and they studied his internal control. And they saw that he has more control than they thought is possible. For example, it's assumed that you cannot regulate your skin temperature. It's assumed that you cannot regulate your nervous system or your immune system. And with him, they found out, yeah, okay, he's actually able to do these kind of things, and he's also able to teach it to other people.

And what was that study actually looking at? How did they conduct that study?

So there were several kinds of studies. The first big one happened in 2012 when Wim Hof was injected with an E. coli bacterium. So it's a bacterium that is not really active. It's just the shell, but the body reacts to it like to a real invader. So the immune system, it goes up. It means the inflammation levels goes, go up usually. And on the outside, you see that people start shivering. They get a headache. They just look sick for like around 6 to 8 hours. With him, they did the same thing and he applied the breathwork. And with him, they saw he had increased levels of adrenaline and a lower inflammation. So, um, this was the first thing. The second thing was he had an increase in white blood cell count. So this was the first study, but there were other studies where they, for example, put him into a suit. Where water was pushed through, warm water, then cold water, warm water, then cold water. And with every normal person, when the warm water comes, the skin temperature goes up. When the cold water comes, it goes down. And with him, on the first day, it was the same thing because they asked him not to do anything special. On the second day, they asked him to do his thing. And yes, he went into the tube. And they saw that the skin temperature stayed the same. It even increased a little bit when the cold water came. At the same time, they saw a stronger activity in the brainstem, where usually also you don't have conscious access to. And because they did both, one day without using his technique and one day with using it, they saw that actually there's this internal control to regulate the body heat and, for example, accessing the brainstem.

Okay. I've got a lot of questions. So, first of all, you said when they asked him to do his thing, what does that mean? What was the thing he was doing? And was it the same for the E. coli study and also, you know, this example of the cold water, warm water study that you brought up?

Yeah, that's a really interesting question because people always ask, "What should I do now that I'm able to do this?" And it's very interesting because in the second study, Michael explained the study. Where with the temperature control, he couldn't do anything because he was in an fMRI. And in the fMRI, you are not allowed to move inside. So because they wanted to measure the brainwaves inside, so you need to lay still. So he couldn't do his, like what he's normally doing, this deep controlled hyperventilation. But what he was doing, he was just setting his intention. And beforehand, because I also asked him this question, beforehand in the hotel, he did this breathing exercise. And he also didn't really know how to really cope with this situation because he has never been in this situation before. But he just felt that he has the control inside that he can do it. So he set this strong intention that when they will pump the cold water through, he will bring up his his body, his skin temperature. It was really the skin temperature that they measured. And, he just did this consciously with the intention. So, there was no specific breathing technique in this moment. It was really the power of the mind and the power of setting this intention.

Yeah. By the way, that reminds me of another book by Maximo Maltz called "Psycho-Cybernetics." It's kind of the book that originated the idea of the inner game of tennis. And, in the inner game of golf, meaning that through visualizing things that you've actually practiced in the past from a neuromuscular or motor standpoint, you can elicit a very similar biological response. Thus, you could practice your tennis serve, for example, while sitting on an airplane with your eyes closed without an actual tennis racket or a ball. And it sounds like because Wim had practiced his protocol, which I, which I do want to describe at some point as we go along here. That he was able to elicit a similar biological response by simply visualizing the same protocol.

I think so too. It's like this neurological pathway to the deepest parts inside of your brain. And I think if you continuously practice this thing, then you gain the access again. It's like really the body, if you use it, if you don't use it, you lose it. And it's really like that on a neurological level. And if you're just continuously starting to practice this, of course, I think you get access. Much more controlled also to these deep layers inside that, that are said to be, um, not able to be, to, to control like the immune system or the, the body temperature, which is, yeah, the core, in the core of the brain.

Okay. So for the fMRI study, he wasn't doing either breathwork or cold water. He was just laying there. How about for the E. coli study? What was he doing in that?

So he started doing the breathwork already before he got the injection, and then he kept doing the breathwork while the injection was there. And the same was happening when it was tested with people who are not Wim Hof. So I think they started roughly an hour before they got the injection, and then they continued breathing for another hour afterwards. And they first did the classical Wim Hof breathwork protocol, which is 30 deep inhalations Then you hold the breath after exhalation and hold it again after inhalation. And then they switch to another technique, which is an advanced technique called power breathing. And there you don't hold the breath after the exhalation, you hold it only after the inhalation.

Yes.

And they all did this lying down in the hospital beds. And in 15 minutes, within 15 minutes, their adrenaline levels, they they spiked higher than the person doing a first-time bungee jump just lying down in a hospital bed.

And these individuals were also injected with the same E. coli as Wim was injected with?

Exactly.

And did they all see, or at least from a study standpoint, was there a significant impact on the majority of them in terms of the immune system regulation that Wim also experienced?

Yes, on all of them. It was a variation, but all of them had a significant impact.

Okay. And there was no cold water or cryotherapy involved with this?

No, but they practiced with Wim Hof in Poland and did similar things that we will also do in our retreat in Germany. And there's several kinds of cold exposures. Also, we do visualizations in advance and yeah, the whole protocol, you know. And later, um, the study was repeated because the scientists thought, okay, these people have practiced cold exposure in advance. Maybe this was also responsible for the effect. So they divided it by 3 groups. One group did only cold exposure to prepare. One group did only the breathwork in the experiment. One group did nothing. And one group did the whole Wim Hof protocol. And The result was that as well, the breathwork as the cold exposure both have an effect on the immune response. Both have an anti-inflammatory effect, but the combination is the strongest. If you prepare in general with cold exposure, cold training, and combine it in an acute situation with breathwork, then you will dampen the immune response the most.

Okay, got it. Now I know it's one thing to hear about it. It's another thing to do it. And that's one reason we're doing this retreat. But, you've mentioned a few times the whole Wim Hof protocol. And, we've talked a little bit, you alluded to the 30 breaths in and out and the hold on the exhale and the hold on the inhale. But, in terms of describing in more completeness what the actual whole Wim Hof protocol looks like, I'm just curious, for you guys on a day-to-day basis when you wake up in the morning, what is the Wim Hof Method?

The Wim Hof Method is a very simple a very simple constellation of 3 components, like we said, the breathwork, the cold exposure, and the mindset. So the way how you are actually doing it. And I think the mindset is the one that is, let's say, the least defined one. And I think what we experience in these retreats is also the power of the community. So the doing these things together, like a cold exposure, like a real physical challenge, or going into very vulnerable states, like in the breathwork, together with a bunch of people. This is where really, I think, just from the experience, the magic is happening. That people open up to each other, that people see that they are not alone. They feel connected to themselves, to the world, and to other people. And they see that they are mostly not alone with these difficulties that we face in life. And this, in a paradox way, boosts actually our confidence and also our belief, our outlook on life in general. And this is such a positive reinforcement loop in our mind. So, I think people that practice the Wim Hof Method by themselves, they usually have a totally different experience when they start practicing together in a group. The effects that actually this method has in the insights, it's just, it becomes a totally new interpretation when you experience this in the power of the community. So, this community part is really also a, like we call it the unofficial official layer of the Wim Hof Method.

Yeah, I've experienced the same thing when practicing with myself versus practicing with my sons, my 16-year-old sons who are also going to be at this retreat. Along with us. And I'm curious what your take on that is. Why is it that breathwork seems more powerful? And I would say the same for cold therapy as well. When you do it with other people, is it the accountability? Is it similar to a workout where when you're doing something hard and other people are doing it along with you, you feel a little less isolated and a little more supportive? Is there something going on with the brainwave or the heart rate variability electrical signals within the space where it's being done together? Or what do you hypothesize is going on there with the community component?

Yeah, I think everything that you said, because, you know, we are deeply social beings. And I think going also into the breathwork together, we enter deeper inside ourselves. And the nervous system is also changing. So in the breathwork, we first activate the sympathetic nervous system with a deep breathing. Later, when we hold the breath, we go deeply into a parasympathetic state. And I think also the nervous systems, they are connected to each other and also attune with each other. And the one thing is that you can achieve, yeah, strong physical sensations with this, which you do it in a group. People say like, yeah, it's tingling stronger. I have stronger effects on the physical layer. But also if the group setting feels safe, what often happens is touching the emotional layer. And I believe when one person dares to open up, to really let go, it often opens also the door for other people to do the same. And this is where it gets really juicy because I think in this moment, things really can change on the inside.

Yeah, I've done combo frog poison and ayahuasca medicine with other people. And I don't enjoy that too much, purging and puking and being in a very out-of-state, out-of-control experience in a room full of other people. But breathwork seems different. Breathwork, there is an emotional purging that occurs, but it's one of the group activities. I would say working out would also fall into that category and cold therapy and sweat lodges, by the way, which I want to get into, that I actually don't mind doing with other people. Even though I'm kind of introverted guy, these are things that would all fall into the category of things I enjoy, like swinging kettlebells, cold therapy, sweat lodges or heat or saunas, and breathwork. So, back to the root of my question, which I still want to unpack just a little bit more. For you guys, you wake up in the morning and you say to your friend or someone who asks you, "I follow the Wim Hof Method." What does that actually look like? Is there something you're doing every day or every week when it comes to waking up or at some point during the day doing breathwork, following that with cold, doing some form of heat? You know, what's a sample week of someone who actually follows the Wim Hof Method actually look like?

So, the basic Wim Hof Method protocol that I follow is I wake up. My wife is also a Wim Hof Method instructor. So, we both go into it right away. We always start with the breathwork. I've been doing this now since 8 years. I do this every morning.

And afterwards— Right away, meaning like you're still in bed, you're still in bed, or you get up and like have a glass of water, find a special place outdoors or in the basement or whatever, and then do it?

Yeah, you know, maybe I go pee and have a sip of water, but I do it in the bed.

So, for the breathwork, what are you doing? Like, how many rounds for how long is that?

Well, I almost Um, yeah, I always do like more than 3 rounds and up to 5 or 6 rounds depending how much time I have. So this will take 15 to 30 minutes roughly. The goal is directly to go into the cold exposure afterwards, but you have to understand also I'm lying there with my wife and if you breathe a lot, you know, you go into the body and you're lying there together. So sometimes also before we go into the discomfort, we go into the comfort together. Because it's also a great way to connect if you breathe together.

Absolutely. And by the way, I, I get what you're saying. There's one app that we use, my wife and I, called Othership, and it has partner-based breathwork protocols on there. It incorporates Wim Hof, you know, pranayama, power breathing, box breathing, a whole range of different breathwork activities. But for, I absolutely agree, for foreplay, you know, in terms of the nitric oxide production, the connectedness, the Breathe, even sometimes we'll do it with our legs intertwined sitting in bed. Brush your teeth first, folks, if you're listening in. In and out of each other's mouths, we're doing the breathing into each other's faces. And it's fantastic for partner connectedness. I absolutely agree. So yeah, I could see if you're doing it with your partner in bed in the morning, there being a possible physical delay of game before moving on to the cold.

Exactly. I mean, there's other protocols. We can go maybe another time into it or when we meet each other. But yes, then we go into the— I go outside, there's an outside shower, or I also, I chose my place to live next to a river. So most of the days I do an outside shower and roughly once a week I go into the river. And the river also stays cold in the summertime because I live in the mountains.

Yeah, maybe also share. Usually I also do when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is I usually sit up because I tend to fall asleep if I'm lying down. So it helps me really to sit up. And usually I start by doing nothing, just doing nothing and just checking in with myself to understand how was my sleep, how am I feeling, how is the state of my nervous system and so on. Just this, it's really, I think it's so beneficial for me to just get an idea of How am I doing today? Because it's different every day, every morning. But then I can adjust to what I really need. And sometimes it's really just doing nothing and observing the breath. And sometimes I need a little bit of an activation or I need a little bit, I feel a little bit low, then doing some rounds of breathwork really helps me. And I do usually less. I do very slow kind of breathing, deep breathing. Maybe 2, maximum of 3 rounds of breathing. And this then really helps me to get started because of the adrenaline spike and also of the connection, just feeling the body sensations, feeling connected to myself. And then I also, like Michael, I live very close to a lake, just 100 meters away. And usually I get up in the morning, I do some stretches outside. So there's some time in between. It's not so important that you go right after the breathing. Into the cold exposure. Actually, you have to be also careful to really separate the Wim Hof breathing from the cold exposure. So how you breathe in the cold is completely different than actually when you do the Wim Hof breathing that we know. And then I go into the cold lake, but also maybe 2, 3 minutes, very easy just to feel good, just to calm myself down, just to know, oh, I overcome this this difficulty in the ice bath, but also not staying too long because if I stay too long, then it sucks out the energy of myself even after many years of practicing. So keeping it very easy, very doable, very integratable into the day. And in that way, I can also, I do it since many, many years because yeah, just doing it in an adaptive way and also not in a forceful way, you know, like not forcing, I have to do like 5 minutes of cold exposure or so. To keep it light. I think this is super important.

Yeah, it's a very good point. I'm glad you made it. Many people who vilify cold exposure are vilifying what I think is, let's hope we use the term, fairly vilified, meaning excess sympathetic nervous system stimulation from plunging for 5 minutes or more at less than 40 degrees. Anyone who does that knows that you're distractingly uncomfortable and almost hyperstimulated for too long. I think there's a time and a place for that in some cases for building stress resilience on an infrequent basis. But my own practice is very similar to that of yours, you guys. I don't do breathwork every day right now. Although leading up to the retreat, I'll probably increase frequency just to feel a little bit better going into the retreat. But right now, I do 3 times a week. I do it in the sauna with my sons, usually in the morning around 8:00 or 8:30 or so before we start school and work. We heat up the sauna, we go in, we do anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes. We'll use the Othership app, the Breath Source app, sometimes the Wim Hof app. There's one instructor I've been following on YouTube recently, also a Wim Hof instructor named Kitaro Waga. I don't know if you guys know him, but I've been following a few of his videos recently because because I like to mix things up. And then, we do about 2 to 3 minutes of sitting in the cold plunge, usually doing a relaxing form of breathwork like box breathing or an inhale with long exhales. And that's it. I mean, that's really our own protocol and it works fantastically. And then, occasionally, about a couple of times a month, we will do a longer, more holotropic-ish breathwork session where we're going 60 to 75 minutes in the sauna sweating our eyeballs out, getting huge dumps of DMT, just kind of exhausting ourselves with breathwork. And usually after that, we'll go spend a little bit longer time in the cold. We'll go jump in the river for 10 minutes. But again, that's because we're just so hot and tired afterwards. So, that's what our practice looks like right now.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of similarities because this bringing in this variabilities changing things up, mixing things up, doing research. And I think this really helps just to prolong any kind of practice because usually for the people, it's much easier to continue with the cold practice, but the breathwork, to keep the breathwork alive, it's much more difficult because it really touches the sensitivity. So how we feel ourselves. And I think if we go to more, more, more, more, it will be difficult to sustain and, and, and, and a level that attracts us, that motivates us. But if we develop as well our sensitivity with these practices, it becomes more alive. And then we need less breaths for more DMT maybe. And so, I think this is really the key to understand this principle, the way how you practice.

Yeah, despite the physical benefits of heat and cold and breathwork, not much that we've talked about is going to build significant amounts of muscular fitness. Is there an exercise component to the Wim Hof Method? And the reason that I ask is because I have had some people, and I've even tried this myself, do things like on the exhale, drop and do 20 push-ups. You know, so doing rounds of Wim Hof, but doing, for example, push-ups or some form of an exercise in between each round. Do you guys ever do something like that?

Yeah, I mean, this is games you can play. And in the beginning, Wim Hof also included more physical exercises, but now he broke it down to make it as simple as possible. And so the, yeah, the basic practice is the breathwork, the mindset, and the cold exposure. But what I observe in many people who do this for a longer time, you also start exploring other things. Physical exercises like we spoke about the sauna, later maybe we touch on the apnea, other forms of hormetic stressors in which we can learn about ourselves, about our nervous system, and stress the body in healthy ways.

Okay, got it. Yeah. And I think, by the way, I should note real quick, there's a great book on Russian breathing or a form of Russian breathing called Systema Breathing. My sons and I are doing Soviet kettlebell training right now. I've been through the Russian kettlebell certification and the Strong First kettlebell certification. And breathing is a huge component of that. A lot of focus on controlled breaths, belly breathing, diaphragmatic breathing, et cetera. And that's why, for me at least, in an ideal workout program, I'm doing cold, heat, breathwork, and some form of kettlebell training. That incorporates a lot of these Russian Systema breathing protocols. So, I think if you're doing Wim Hof, you can still incorporate other styles of breathwork into your exercise program outside of Wim Hof.

Yes, I totally agree.

It's like, it's just at the beginning, it's just good to have something, something graspable, something that we can, where we can feel immediately the changes. And from there on, we can also like dive deeper into these things. But, you know, nowadays it's like sometimes people are just very, very far away from these practices. And I feel like the Wim Hof Method is, through their simplicity and through this direct change that we can experience, it's just so good to get started with. It's so simple and so effective. This is really what I think how it stands out.

Yeah.

What are some mistakes? But besides what we've already stated, getting into water, cold water while you're still breathless or dizzy, which I think is something people misunderstand. Some people even do Wim Hof breathwork in the water. Highly recommend against that. But besides that as being one mistake, what are some other mistakes that people make when doing or thinking they're doing Wim Hof breathwork?

Well, in the breathwork itself, I think the biggest mistake is to be superficial with, um, with, with the practice and focus on the, on the outside. So to focus too much on the protocol instead of feeling yourself, um, just performing it without feeling it. And I think this is like a dead end because these people often, they, they're looking then for a strong sensation, which you get in the beginning, but after a while, this will decrease a little bit. And I think then it's, it's actually more important to feel the body and relax the body and have a deeper body awareness and then feel also into the more subtle sensations within the body. So I think using force and being distracted while doing the breathwork is, is the most common mistake.

Interesting. What about the, what about the pace of breathing? Meaning, when I first started doing Wim Hof, I would go, "Ah, ah, ah." And now, it's much different. It's a long inhale, letting go. In, letting go. And I feel much better, way less stress, way better nervous system regulation, a way better breath hold during the exhale. But I don't know about you guys, is that a common mistake that you're thinking that Wim Hof is just all basically hyperventilation?

Yes. And I think it's like always when we start, I mean, anyone who has learned something in the depth, you will see when you usually start with something, you do it slow because when you do it slow, you feel more and you can observe better what's going on. So I think it helps to do it slow and also to do it, for example, through the nose in the beginning, because when you breathe through the nose, you automatically access more the diaphragm muscle, which is Yeah, the main muscle for the inhale and the exhalation. So breathing through the nose and doing it slowly, I think this really facilitates conditions where we learn proper breathing, more sensitivity, and more understanding how it really impacts our inner state. And I think the more we understand this, the more we will be also just flexible with how we do it and what we need in a certain moment.

The Daily Mail recently published an article that I alluded to earlier, and the title of the article was The Truth About Cold Water Theory. And the subtitle was Experts Reveal Exposure Risk Panic, Weak Limbs, and Even Cardiac Arrest as Iceman Wim Hof's Ice Bath and Breathing Methods Are Linked to a String of Deaths. Now, what do you guys respond with when you hear objections like that?

First of all, it's correct that ice water is dangerous, but it's not correct that this is linked to the Wim Hof Method in the way they describe it, because it's important to understand that ice bathing and winter swimming are two different things. So just to understand what happens if you practice the Wim Hof Method, if you go to a fundamental workshop, there are several steps you go through. First, you sign a health waiver where you check, for example, for high blood pressure or preconditions with the heart. The second thing is the instructor will explain to you the safety protocols before you go in the water. For example, all the instructors will explain, don't do the Wim Hof breathwork in the water. The third thing is, if you do a workshop with a certified instructor, you will go in a very safe circumstance where you can always stand and it's not deep, the water. So you're not swimming around outside. You keep the head out of the water and you breathe very controlled and very slow. And if we look now on this article, What they claim here, or like what they are talking about is first the death of this girl, Madeleine. She was 17 years old. And yes, nobody really knows what happened with her and it's a really tragic death, of course. But yeah, there was also this lawsuit against Wim Hof and 4 days ago, the court made a judgment about it and the summary was that the lawsuit has no merit. So, yeah. So, the second thing is what they point out is this, uh, 39-year-old woman. And yeah, she was, she was not doing a Wim Hof workshop. She was going to another company. I don't know what they did exactly, but in the article it said, first and foremost, there was no waiver. They went in the water and then the instructor sprinkled her head with cold water. And if we look at the causes that actually happen when people die in the cold water, there's a great, great article from Mike Tipton, who is also mentioned in this article, but I think they didn't really read it, to be honest. But what he explains is that the most people who actually die in the cold water, they fall in the cold water and then they have the cold shock reflex, so they breathe in fast. And if you are in water where there's waves, they breathe in the water and this causes the drowning. This is the most common cause people die in the cold water. There's also another option how you can die is a cardiac arrest. And this can happen if the whole body is under the water and the Cold shock reflex happens if the cold water hits the torso. At the same time, if you put the head under the water, it will trigger this parasympathetic nervous system. And this causes a confusion because both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic are activated at the same time. And this can lead to a heart, um, dysrhythmia. The heart gets out of the rhythm. Yes, to die from that, you still need a precondition with a heart. This is the only reason then you can die in this. But if you have a precondition with a heart, you can also die, die in the heat or doing a strong exercise. But just to make it clear, in the Wim Hof workshop, you will not just go under the water with your head. We stay outside of the water with the head. And also the other things that are mentioned in this article, like the weak limbs that are, they are a problem if you swim around outside, of course. The hypothermia, a real dangerous hypothermia, uh, Mike Tipton states like it kicks in, um, the earliest after 30 minutes in the ice water. And in the Wim Hof workshop, you stay in for 2 minutes. Um, yes, there's only one thing that the article mentions that's actually true that can happen also in a Wim Hof workshop is, uh, one out of, one out of 10,000 people, they can have like a memory loss, but it's, yes, always short-term. So they always come back after maximum of 24 hours.

Yeah. Well, thank you for those clarifications. I think that whether it's freediving or triathlon or cold water swimming or any form of cryotherapy or even breathwork, that there, you, you should make sure that you're healthy enough to do so. I think everyone should be getting a regular lipid panel. I think they should be looking at something like a plaque score for the heart. I think they should be paying attention to heart rate variability. I think that you should know whether or not you have heart rate arrhythmias, such as getting an EKG. You should be managing stress, getting adequate minerals, and hydrating properly. You know, using magnesium to taking care of cardiovascular function because, you know, I, I know that deaths were a problem with open water swimming back when I used to do triathlon. And yeah, you put a stressed out, dehydrated, mineral depleted CEO who just came out of a 70-hour work week on the beach at 6:00 AM and you start a triathlon with 1,000 people kicking around you. And screaming and shouting and air horns, inevitably someone's heart is not going to be able to handle that. And it's sad and it's tragic when it happens, but a big part of it is you do need to be careful, especially depending on your heart health, piling stress on top of stress on top of stress. So, you know, I do think you want to be wise about these things, but I agree with you that that article is describing what happens when you do things wrong, basically. I mean, I think that's the best way to sum it up. You know, when you're doing it in the water for long periods of time, getting excessively cold and, you know, breaking a lot of the rules, many of which we already discussed.

Yeah. And none of that what they described happened ever in a Wim Hof workshop. It was completely other circumstances. And I think just taking these things out of the circumstances and not describing the real situation, it's just a real distortion of the picture. And I think, yeah, it's sad because I think it's such a powerful tool and we should more encourage the people to do it in a safe way, in a correct way. And also even they mention a protocol in this article and in this protocol, they say that you should put the timer on 10 minutes in the ice cold water. So it's very, very distorted article.

But there was something cool in the article. I saw they put in a picture, a sexy picture of you in the ice bath.

Yes.

Oh, I think it was the best thing about this article.

I know I saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. I won't live that one down. Yeah. And, and yet there's multiple research studies. You can find these easily on PubMed showing a link between breathwork, apnea training, CO2 tolerance, nitric oxide production, and improved cardiovascular function, as well as a link between cold therapy and better vascular function. Better blood sugar management, better blood pressure management, better management of blood flow issues such as Raynaud's phenomenon, better stress tolerance. And overall, if done right, I think that breathwork and smart use of cold, and I would actually say the same thing for heat, are actually good, not bad, for cardiovascular function.

And I think it's even with water. If you drink too much water, you can also die. So, Everything has its risks as well. This is part of the life.

Yeah. I was going through the schedule for the retreat. I know we're going to be doing cold therapy, breathwork, of course. We have some hiking. We have fantastic luxury meals. There's a sweat lodge ceremony. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. But then, you also mentioned apnea training. What is apnea training and how is that different than Wim Hof breathwork?

Well, First, it's important to understand that it's something completely different and that works also differently in the body, the effects that it has on the body and how we approach, for example, the breath hold. In the Wim Hof breathing, we do a lot of inhalation and exhalation, and so we breathe out a lot of CO2. And like this, it's very easy to hold your breath for a long time in a safe setting inside, not in the water, right? And in this moment, the oxygen levels can drop to pretty low levels, which triggers, you know, a healthy stress response. So the body improves the energy production, the mitochondria and the red blood cell count. In the apnea, we do something completely different. We don't do deep inhalation and exhalation. We slow down the breathing. We want to be as calm as possible, hold the breath, and then the CO2 will rise up, which causes, uh, very strong discomfort inside. And in the apnea, you try to stay with this and learn to relax even though the CO2 is rising. And to be honest, I learned from Max about this. I attended a retreat where we did all kinds of exercises. It was not the Wim Hof retreat, but yes. We do this kind of work where we played also, for example, in a dark lake where you play a game with a friend. You hold a stone, you have to stay on the bottom until your friend comes and taps you and takes the stone. And then you can go up and take a breath. Yeah, while your friend is underwater, then you go down again. And in this kind of circumstance, you learn so much about yourself because the CO2 is really like creates a lot of fear inside of yourself, but you also don't want to let your buddy down.

Just real quick, I'm sure everybody who just heard you talk about safety in this article have now just heard you say dark, cold lake, holding a rock underneath the water until a partner comes and taps you. Isn't that dangerous?

Well, first and foremost, um, you are under the water roughly 1.5 meters. So you can just stand up in any given moment.

Got it.

It's just creating a scenario that causes you stress, but you're actually safe, you know?

Okay, got it.

And of course, I want to stress again, this is not a Wim Hof Method retreat. This is something else. But I want to mention it because, you know, in the Wim Hof Method, you face the cold and you learn to deal with it in a calm way. This is another scenario, another stressor with the CO2 where you also learn to deal with the stress. So it's a different thing, but the underlying principle are also like bigger than that. And the same is true for the heat, which is also not a part of the Wim Hof Method, but we also use this tool.

Yeah, it's an emerging field in health and biohacking, the idea of CO2 tolerance. There are now carbon dioxide delivery suits. I've worn them. They look like a giant blueberry, but it's literally pumping CO2 in through a pump, in through the suit where it's absorbed transdermally to generate CO2 tolerance or overload the body with more carbon dioxide than what normally experience. Some people are now using a device called a Carbogen to breathe CO2. And I've even seen James Nestor, the author of the book Breathe, write about the CO2 tolerance effect. Dr. Joe Mercola has also written about this quite a bit. And, there is a benefit to building up tolerance to CO2, particularly when it comes to stress resilience. And the interesting thing is Wim Hof method is blowing off CO2, depleting CO2, which is the body's signal. You know, it's a gaseous signal to cause you to engage in the breathing reflex. So when you breathe off CO2, you can hold your breath longer. And the opposite is true with these apnea tables, right? You're retaining CO2, it's actually harder to hold your breath for a long period of time, but there are side benefits to increasing the levels of CO2 in your body. So, you know, you're, you're kind of hitting it from both angles from a physiology breath component when you're doing both apnea training and Wim Hof training, cuz you're training yourself to tolerate both low levels of CO2 and high levels of CO2, right?

Exactly. And also your O2 capacity. And that the body learns also to do, to do, to deal with low oxygen levels in the Wim Hof Method. And in the apnea training, the body learns how to deal with high CO2 levels in the body. So it's really tackling both, both, both sides of the, of the spectrum. Yeah.

I just wanna mention it one more time to make it very, very clear. So, sorry, uh, just for the safety, like, uh, it's very, very important to understand that it's never the idea to do a hyperventilation. And then dive under the water as long as you can. Like, this is not the idea to combine these things.

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and for me personally, I'll just come right out and say, you know, I go and do Laird Hamilton's underwater dumbbell pool training in Malibu, and I've done rock training in the ocean, literally carrying a rock 15 feet at the bottom of the ocean. I've done— I've gone as low as 80 feet freediving. Like, I, I personally don't mind some of the badass stuff that flirts with danger. But yet, at the same time, it's something like this retreat, we're not going to put you in situations like that, but I don't necessarily frown at Wim Hof's underwater ice swimming record. I just don't want to encourage people to do something like that unless they're actually ready and they understand the risks. So, back to the retreat, what about the sweat lodge?

Yeah, actually, just last week, I came back from the Sundance. So, every year, I do the Native American Sundance. It's a It's a very beautiful, deep ritual where you fast for 4 days. Like you don't drink water for 4 days and you don't eat for 4 days. And every day in the morning and in the evening, you do a sweat lodge and you dance in the sun during the day. So, this is where I really learned, it's like the sweat lodge technology. It looks so ancient and it looks not like a technology. But it's really a technology for our consciousness and for connection. And this is also something that we both explore, like these ancient traditions, these ancient rituals. And we do it in a very respectful way, really learning from the people that are doing it, from the real natives. And because this is, yeah, there is a long tradition of passing on this knowledge. And we also integrate this into the retreats because it's so beautiful. The effects on the people to not only shed a light to different stressors from different perspectives, but really also to connect with nature, to connect also with the things that we cannot describe about the life, the mystery, like this spiritual realm. Because in my mind, it's so important to also touch on this layer for really tapping into your own essence of life to really find the trust. And I think you cannot go around this layer. And this is also what we bring into. And I think the sweat lodge, it's always after the people come out of the sweat lodge, they feel newborn and they feel something they haven't felt before, like a deep connection with nature. And the separation is gone. The separation of, oh, I'm a human being and everything else, or the nature is not part of me. You feel like, oh, I am nature. There is no separation.

Yeah. You feel amazing afterwards. I've led or not led, I've attended some father-son wilderness retreats at Twin Eagles Wilderness School where my sons attend in the summers. And there's always a sweat lodge component and it's always transformative. It's stressful. I mean, you're in there in the heat and they have the drums going and it's a little claustrophobic and dark. But when you finish, you feel as though you've climbed a mountain. The sweat lodge we'll be doing at the retreat Is it a really big one? Like, will we have a lot of people in there?

Yes, we will be. It's a big sweat lodge and it's also part of it. Like also like in the Sundance, we are in the sweat lodge with 60 people. It's not going to be that tight, but it's going to be tied up. But of course, also in a very safe way, there are clear instructions how you get out. And of course, it's how to check in all the time with the people and you can kind of guide it very well with the water that you're pouring over. It's not like in the sauna that this crazy heat is all the time there. You can much better regulate it and yes, also to have a really clear structure how to get in, how to get out, how to act inside of it and so on. But yeah, it's going to be tight.

Yeah. Okay, got it. Give me the overview of what this retreat is going to involve. So, somebody's listening right now, they're like, "Yeah, that'd be kind of fun to go to Germany right before Christmas, you know, December 23rd." You can clarify on the dates, about 11th through the 15th-ish in Germany. But, walk me through what people can expect if they were to come over there and meet me and my sons in Germany to do this Wim Hof retreat.

Well, first and foremost, it's in a beautiful place close to Munich. So, you can fly into Munich. It's very easy accessible. But then, we go south of Munich into the Bavarian Alps in a nature area where you cannot drive with the car, you need a special permission. And there we have the retreat center. And this is also where I live in this area. And it's surrounded by the mountains with really the most beautiful mountain rivers. And yeah, you're surrounded by the nature. And of course, we will explain also what is happening physiologically. We're also very curious to listen to your talk, to go more into the perspective of the biohacking also of all of this. And then we will also do a lot of practical experience with breathwork, Wim Hof style, classical breathwork. We will also explore longer breathwork sessions, what you mentioned before. We will go into the cold in different scenarios. We will do ice bathing gradually, build up to it, but also go, for example, without a t-shirt for a longer time outside. Uh, we will do, uh, sweat lodges and, uh, a big component of the whole thing will also be the music because the music is also very powerful to bring us together. And yes, I mean, we want to bring together people who are really interested in exploring themselves, but also are willing to share vulnerable what's going on inside of themselves. Strong people, but also real people. And bring them together and just create a force field so we can really deeply, deeply look inside.

I got a few questions. Do we need to bring our own snacks and energy bars and food and stuff? Or are you guys doing cooking and food prep for us?

So the cooking is done by the retreat center and they do an amazing job. Yeah, that was very, very, very healthy. And yeah, people are also always very, very happy with the food.

Okay. That's awesome. So we're foodies. How about when you show up, do you need to have a lot of breathwork under your belt or is there like a certain program you need to follow leading up to the retreat or could you theoretically show up having never done an ice bath or breathwork?

Yes. It's no problem if you have not so much experience with it. We will also send out a couple of weeks before the retreat some protocols to follow just to get used to it, to feel more safe, and then you can also make more of the time and and go deeper into it as well. This really usually helps. The same with the cold. So we are gradually exposing ourselves and then when we are there, we can really do the real work that is usually very difficult to do alone. So yeah, and very often it's even better if you don't have so much knowledge before because then you just go in with a beginner's mindset. You're very open and you receive This sometimes can really help.

You don't have to fix all the mistakes you've been making. How about age limit?

Well, there's no real age limit as long as you're healthy. So we had people up to 70s, but you have to check in advance, of course, for example, some parameters that we will send out in advance.

How about how young can you be?

Yeah, 16 is a good age to start.

Okay. All right. Got it. Yeah. Because my sons, yeah, they'll be 16. They're 16-year-old twins. So, they'll be there along with me. And how many people can we actually get into this retreat total?

If you fill it up completely, it's going to be like 30 spots in the place.

Perfect. Well, so first of all, if you're listening and you want to do this, go to bengreenfieldlife.com/wimhof. Oh, I should ask you guys, this is important, of course, people. What's about the pricing people can expect for this thing?

So, the price is €2,500 for the retreat. And the lodging is an additional fee and depends what kind of room you choose. And you can see it all on the page that you were just mentioning.

Okay. If I wanted, like, let's say somebody's listening in and they wanted the nicest of the nicest rooms, how much would that be approximately, you think?

It's roughly €500 for the night. It's the house itself. You also have to understand Uh, it's not a hotel. Uh, it's a, it's a community and they live there and they do this really from the heart. And they're also part of my family, you know, I work a lot with them and we are really embedded there in the local community also. So it's very, very beautiful. It's a retreat center with a gigantic seminar space and they really do this from the heart. But it's not a hotel. It's much more, um, you know, there's much more family.

All right. I actually, I love that approach. So if somebody was going to do this, which day would they arrive in Munich?

So you can arrive in Munich on the 11th of December, and this will be enough time because the retreat starts at 6 o'clock in the evening.

Okay, perfect. And then which day does it end?

It ends on the Sunday, the 15th.

So, so let's say someone did have to fly out of Munich. If they left that Sunday night, Does the retreat end in the morning or in the evening?

It ends after lunch, and so you can easily go then in the evening from the Munich airport.

Okay. Or you could, like, would there be an option if someone isn't flying out until Monday for them to find a place to stay on the night of the 15th?

Yeah, that would be no problem.

Okay. Wow. I'm so excited, you guys. My sons and I have been talking about this a ton.

Yeah, it's also a beautiful area. Many people who come to our retreats also add a week before or afterwards to go skiing, explore the area. There's a lot of hikes you can do and yeah, it's just amazing.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, first of all, if you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/wimhof, that's where you can get the details on the retreat. If you just want the show notes for this podcast and to dig into my original show with Wim, learn more about some of the other stuff we talked about, go to bengreenfieldlife.com/wimhoffpodcast. So, your two URLs are BenGreenfieldLife.com/WimHof, W-I-M-H-O-F, or BenGreenfieldLife.com/WimHofPodcast. Max and Michael, anything else you guys want to share while I have you on?

Oh, it's just such a pleasure. You know, like 5 years ago, I was listening a lot to your podcast and it's so beautiful to be here now and to talk to you. So, I feel very blessed in this moment.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm honored to have you on. I'm so excited about this retreat. And again, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/WimHof if you want to get in. And until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield with Michael Neuse and Maximilian Freiler from the Wim Hof Method signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com. Have an incredible week.

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