Hormonally-Optimized Couples, The Gift Of Forgiveness, Outrunning Donuts & Much More With The "OG" Of Fitness Talk Radio

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life.

Podcast, I believe that you could eat correctly, you could exercise, ideal routine, get all the sleep you want, but if your hormones are low or extremely low, you're swimming upstream.

Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.

Hey, folks, you are about to hear a podcast, one of my world famous walking podcasts with a new friend of mine named Larry North. I met Larry at a private event in Dallas, Texas, where I was speaking for for an investment firm down there. Larry, it turns out, is an OG in fitness. The dude has 35 years on talk radio and is a big expert in health, fitness, nutrition, weight loss. He has generated hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for these big weight loss programs that he's run. He now is an investment advisor to a firm called Satori for many of their health and wellness initiatives. Both he and his wife Brenda, who does some fantastic things like guided meditations and is very impressive in her own right, are just a fantastic couple. I'm blessed to know them. And Larry and I wound up going on a walk and talking about everything from hormone optimization to entrepreneurship to Larry's background in fitness and how he's seen fitness change in America over the past several decades and plenty more. So you're gonna dig this one. Here we go.

Larry. I gotta admit, like, when I'm doing a podcast with a dude who's got 35 years of talk radio experience, I get a little bit nervous, you know? Cause just talk radio is like. That's before podcasting, right?

Yeah, that was before podcasting. But let me tell you this, when I first got the show, I was so excited. I get a call from the program director. I'd already been a guest on another guy's show. That was sort of my interview, so to speak.

You mean when you got your talk radio show?

Yeah. So I got the show. I'm in my 20s. I just sort of manifested it. I didn't even know what a program director was. I show up to this popular talk station, I ask who's in charge? And I end up going in. They say, okay, Dan Bennett. This guy agrees to meet me. I tell him my idea. He goes, what are you gonna do, exercise people over the radio? He's being sarcastic, like the Richard Simmons.

Of talk radio or something.

I said, no, I'm gonna encourage, I'm gonna inspire. I'm gonna give them tips, hints. I'm gonn. And so he goes, that was my idea. I Look at him. Like, what is he talking about? He goes, I called Dr. Ken Cooper, who's pretty famous in these parts. He turned me down. So he goes, okay, write your stuff down. I end up being a guest on this guy's show. So listen to this.

You mean Ken Cooper, like the old.

Like the aerobic guy? Yeah, the aerobic guy. So he turned it down. He didn't want to have any interest in it. So I'm a guest on the David Gold show. And then two weeks later, on my voice. You had voice recorders back then, right? This guy, Dan Bennett, he goes, larry, this is Dan Bennett from klif. I've got some good news and not so good news. The good news is you now have your own radio show called the Weekend Workout with Larry North. I said, oh, my God. And I'm literally shaking. I'm so freaking excited. He goes, but it starts at 7am on Sundays, 7am to 8am so that's like the worst time slot in the history of talk radio.

Oh, see, I didn't know that. Because podcasts, you just push them out. And there's certain days that are optimal to release a podcast for.

People listen to it, they want to listen to it. So here's what happened, though. Within three months, I was what you would call primetime weekend. It became the real Weekend Workout with Larry North, 10 to 12, Saturday and Sundays, and the rest is sort of history. And I found a great love for talk radio because you're taking questions. These are real questions, real people.

And that was the format. People would call in.

Yep, they call in, and I did my magic.

What kind of questions do people call in with? Just like, what, what should I eat? Or what kind of workout should I do today?

You know, it's interesting. There was always the surreal caller. Guy calls in, you could tell he's nervous. I'm trying to, yeah. Hey, Gary, everything's fine. You know, just be yourself. Just ask your question. He goes, well, I've been listening for a while. It took a lot of courage for me to pick up the phone. Well, well, how can I help you? Well, Larry, I'm ashamed to say that I'm 450 pounds. I'm 200 pounds overweight. I lost my job, I lost my family, and I just didn't even know where to start. I just. I need guidance. And sometimes you would get that call.

Yeah.

Also sometimes you get a call saying, hey, you know, I've gotten lean, but I just can't seem to lose that last five or ten pounds right? You know, or hey, I eat out all the time. What can I order when I eat out? So it just, it's just sort of the caller dictated the topic.

Yeah, yeah. And your experience at that point, like, like when you go and you pitch a show like this, what were you doing in the fitness world at that point? Were you like a trainer?

Yeah.

Or.

That's a good question.

Just a fitness enthusiast?

Well, no, I, I actually at a very early age, I knew that I was unmanageable personality. So I knew that I had to work for myself.

An unmanageable person.

You can't manage me. The only rules I follow are the ones I make. That kind of thing.

That's code speak for an entrepreneur, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So at 21, I just decided to create it. Sort of like Field of Dreams. I just got a business card, a brochure, and I became a personal trainer. And if I'm not one of the first trainers in North Texas, I'm in the conversation now.

35 years ago, did you have to get like a certification to be a trainer? You just have to be a gym junkie.

Gym junkie. There were, there were no certifications. Where were you going to go to get it? I guess you could get a, you could get a four year degree. But even we know a lot of those four year degrees in exercise science don't always apply to real world training scenarios.

Yeah, that was my experience. I learned a lot about science. But when it came to actually motivating people, when it came to dealing with people's daily schedules and their kids, when it came to like, oh, here's the ideal diet. And then, oh, you're eating out at the restaurant four days a week and then you're having breakfast during your 45 minute commute to work. Like, there's so many curve balls that you don't learn in exercise science.

And so here's what's interesting too. So my mom was really a pioneer, early stage founder of Overeaters Anonymous. So my mom, I didn't even know.

That was a thing.

Yeah, my mom struggled with her weight tremendously. In fact, she was the youngest of five. She's very healthy now. She's going to be 89 next, next month. But she, she was like, they called her Fat Bevy. Like it was really bad. And I saw what it did to her just emotionally, just growing up as a child. So the one thing I do really well, I believe, is I have what I would call strong sensitivity training.

Okay.

For people that really struggle with weight, like really Struggle, it's painful, and they need more nurturing in our industry. What I found up at that time is that a lot of trainers had what I would call a holier than thou mentality. And so I would say I was real approachable.

You mean they were kind of like, judgmental?

Yeah. I figured out how come you haven't. You're lazy. Quit being lazy. You know, shut your pie hole. You know, that was sort of the. What a lot of people had gotten that kind of energy where I'm saying, hey, think about this. That technology you were using, it just wasn't the right technology. You were never going to lose the weight, but you had the spirit to try it. So if you're doing something good for yourself, at least that's a start.

Yeah.

And that's where I would take it from there.

Yeah. And you did this for 35 years? Every week.

35 years. Every weekend.

Jeez. And so every weekend, you've no doubt seen a lot of trends come and go in the fitness industry. Like yesterday, you know, the reason that you and I are together here in Dallas today is yesterday we had, like, an event, like a private event, and it was me and a couple other guys lecturing, and we were doing, like, infrared light and hyperbaric and pulsed electromagnetic field therapy and, you know, the Vasper machine and vibration platforms and BFR training, All this crazy stuff that I'm sure really wasn't that available or that popular 35 years ago. Is this just like, kind of how fitness has gone for the past 35 years? Like all these technologies come and go with people looking for a shortcut or what's your experience? I know that's a big question, but I just love to hear from somebody who's been in this for that long.

Well, thank you. One, the core issue that most people struggle with is still the same. It's still them trying to gather all the information they can to be able to lose weight and more importantly, keep it off. So that's still the same general population. It's. It's just that we have better science now. We have better knowledge. What has changed dramatically, honestly, are people like yourself, just the level of intellectual people that have chosen to. To break into this field has changed the whole field completely. So it's like you just have so many higher sources to go. And back then, think about it, it was talk radio. There was not only was there no podcast, there was no Internet, There was no YouTube, there was nothing books, which was great, but that was about it.

Yeah. I mean, to me, it seems like, and I might be totally wrong here, but sometimes if you put me in a room, like a blank room with let's say, like kettlebell and an exercise bike, like there's no other choice. I just know what to do. You know, I'll do some swings, I'll do a Tabata set, I'll do some push ups, etc. Now, in like the information overload era, or walking into a gym like, you know, like Golds or whatever, where there's 800 different pieces of fitness equipment, it's almost like there's a paralysis by analysis. There's so many choices, there's so many experts, there's so many voices, there's so many options, there's so many diets, from keto to vegan to carnivore. I mean, it seems like the complexity is almost in some ways potentially doing people a disservice or confusing people when all they need is the simplicity of just moving their body.

You know what I say? Sometimes I'm so confused that you're so confused. Meaning the end user there is a lot, but at the same time, you could take that to your advantage is first thing, what's the goal? What, what, what does one want to actually accomplish? I think with, when I think of Ben Greenfield, I think of being able to, no matter where you're at, to being able to go to a higher level. So a lot of the people I know, people that listen to your podcast and others like you, that they become pretty knowledgeable, like they just study it enough that they become pretty knowledgeable that, that if there's a trickle down effect to people they live with, people they work with, I think having access to more knowledge is only a good thing. At the end of the day, I don't think that there's that much confusion because at the end of the day, it's not so much what works, it's what works best, but also what is the person wanting to accomplish. And I still believe that most people still want to be able to lose fat and lose weight as a starting point. And it's real interesting. We talked about talk radio in the early days. They used to call it dancing on air if nobody called into your show.

Dancing on air.

Yeah, because no one's calling in. Like I'm like almost begging for callers.

Yeah.

So I would say, hey, everyone, this is Larry North. It's the weekend workout. Give me a call. 214-787-1570. Today I'm going to help you get healthier. You Hear that? You hear nothing.

What do you do?

Nobody calls. Then I. Next break, I say, hey, everybody, we're gonna jam the phone lines because I'm gonna teach you how to lose a pant or a dress size in less than one week. I'm gonna teach you how to look good in that bikini this summer. Now all of a sudden, the phones light up.

Yeah.

So here's what's changed. People do want to look good, but 35 years later, they do want to be healthier.

Yeah.

That's the biggest difference.

Right.

It was all about vanity. Now it's a combination which we now.

Know aesthetics is not synonymous with health.

Correct. And so I think people want to be healthier. So if they could just learn. Like yesterday, I walked away with at least three or four good nuggets that I really wasn't totally aware of or didn't have an understanding when you spoke. And that's all you need. Just get started with a few nuggets and makes a big difference.

Yeah, yeah. You. Obviously, when you're doing something like talk radio, I would imagine, especially in the, you know, those spaces of dead air or silence, you gotta tell stories as well. And one thing I've noticed about you is, like, you seem to do a good job telling stories. Are there any that were, like. That were stories that you felt were particularly remarkable or memorable that you found yourself using on your show?

Well, you know, I believe everybody has a story, and there's nothing like a story that happens to be the truth. And so I have so many. When I did go into the radio show, I always had a full outline of material that I could cover if someone didn't. Didn't actually call in. But yeah, I mean, really, what was.

The Coach Wheeler one you were telling me about?

Okay, so this is a good, good, good place to start. So I moved to Dallas. I'd been in grade school in the 60s in Las Vegas, junior high, part of high school in New York. Ended up coming to Texas at age 15. But not under the best of circumstances. My father was a real degenerate, abusive, compulsive gambler.

Oh, man.

Grew up in Brooklyn, seventh grade education. My mom's nothing but a sweet, pure love, space human being. But seeing her abused the way it was and this lifestyle that we were living, couldn't do it anymore, dad in and out of jail, in and out of prison. So we made a move, big move, and we had the courage to finally do it and break away from his chains. Guess where we went? Las Vegas, Nevada. Because my dad Was banned from Vegas at that time. This is the late 70s.

Yeah.

So we get there, my mom says, nope, not raising my kids in their children's temple. Mom, where are we going to go? We just drove across the country in a beat up old car. She says, Houston, Texas. Houston. We're from New York, Texas. We don't know anybody. She says, that's the point. We're going to start a brand new life, Larry. And that's where we're headed. Well, if you are an i75 to Houston from Dallas, that's how you get there.

Yeah.

Our car imploded and we got stuck at a motel and we never left.

And that's how you wound up in Dallas.

Yes.

And you're still here?

I'm still here. So I had to go to high school. And it was, it was rough for me at first, you know, just carrying the burden of my. What's going on in our personal life. And there was a redneck guy. I mean, his coach Wheeler, as mean as the day is long.

And he was the coach of the.

High school, head football coach of the high school. And you have to understand they have a lot of. A lot of power in Texas. A5A coach.

Yeah, well, football's kind of like the thing in Texas.

The thing. And for whatever reason, he just had a bullseye on me. This guy was brutal to me. I mean, he really was to the point where my mom even complained to the school board. And he would have been absolutely outed if he did the stuff today that he did to me back then. But there it is. I couldn't wait to get out of high school. Couldn't wait to get out. Away from him. Fast forward 10, 12 years. I'm doing my radio show live from Vineyard Supermarket.

Yeah.

And I used to love live remotes because you get to really see people like yesterday. And so I've got a pretty good crowd. They pumped my radio show into the speakers of the supermarket. Oh, wow. And I'm like, hey, everyone, this is Larry north, weekend workout. We're at Minyard. Blah, blah, blah. Who do you think I see out of the corner of my eye?

Is it Coach Wheeler?

Coach Wheeler. He looked the same. A little different, a little thinner.

Yeah.

But I recognized him immediately. And my, my palms immediately got clammy. My legs started shaking. I had to go in the break.

You got that subconscious stress response, even though you didn't need to be afraid of him anymore.

No, it was, it was a fight or flight and. And I went into a commercial break and I'LL be honest with you. I was a lot bigger. Yeah, I was a lot. I wanted revenge. And I thought I could whoop his ass now. But then, that's stupid. That's not me. But I thought of it. But then I hoped he would just disappear. Maybe just came in from milk and cookies. I come back and on radio, live remote, there's no delay, there's no dump button. Who do you think's holding that microphone?

Oh, my gosh.

La nove. Remember me? I said, yeah, your Coach Wheeler. Made your life a little miserable, didn't I? You want to know the truth? You did. Now this is on. You could hear a pin drop.

This is all live in the grocery store.

This is live in the grocery store. You can hear a pin drop in that grocery store. And he said, well, do you know why I'm here today, Larry North? I said, no, no, Mr. Wheeler, I do not. Let me tell you. Three years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. I had all that chemotherapy, that radiation. Not too long ago, my doctor said, there's nothing, Coach Wheeler, there's nothing more we could do for you. But here's a show that you ought to listen to. He wrote your showdown with your name. And I'm not telling you, did I miss it? Because I never missed it. But when I missed it, I taped it and I listened to it all week. And I'm not here asking for your forgiveness, Larry North. I'm here today and I'm begging for your forgiveness. I'm so sorry.

Oh, wow.

You didn't deserve it. You're a good person. You're a good man. And I don't know why I did it, but I'm sorry. Please forgive me. And all of a sudden, he puts the mic down and he walks off. Now I have the mic.

Yeah.

Coach Wheeler, please come back here. Keeps walking, Coach Wheeler. I talk louder and I have a loud voice.

Yeah.

And he gets to the doors that open. Instead of going out of him, he comes back. I said, coach, you didn't even let me respond. Yeah, you were pretty miserable to me. And yes, I didn't deserve it. But I'll tell you right now. And I carried him. I know I carried this coast. Wheeler. Ghost in my back. I said, I forgive you. I do forgive you. My heart forgives you. But I'm going to tell you one thing. I don't know if you came here seeking my forgiveness. My advice is look in the mirror. Look in the mirror and forgive that person you see. Forgive yourself, Coach Wheeler. He did say one word. He Left, Never heard from him again. But I heard that he passed away, away six months, probably from the time of that show.

Wow.

And that's powerful. But then I get in the car, my mom happened to be there that day, and my mom gets in the car with me. We're just sort of numb. You're numb when your nemesis has come and basically on a knee begging for forgiveness.

Yeah.

And I said, mom, you're a little bit like that coach. She goes, how could you say such a mean thing? I'm nothing like him. I said, well, in a way, yes. I said, mom, you have blamed yourself for all of my father's misdeeds. You've punished yourself for all these on again, start again, stop again, diets that you've been on. It's time, Mom. We've reached that level of let's forgive. And I have to. I can tell you this, that was such a big day in my life that I remember it so vividly. But when I got out of that Coach Wheeler with all the so called abuse that he gave me, the gift of forgiveness far surpassed anything that he ever did to me. Badly.

Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, especially that random encounter in the grocery store. And I mean, like the advice that you gave him, it was profound. And I know that you're now a man of faith at that point. Were you connected to God in any way? Or when did God enter the picture for you?

Well, that's a good question. And God entered a picture when I was old enough to understand and say the word. But I wasn't real happy at the time. So I knew I believed in God because I was talking to him all the time saying, why? How could you do this to my family? How could you create this abuse for my mom? How come my dad's in jail? How come we got evicted from an apartment?

How come the classic why does God let evil happen?

Question. Exactly. And I'm a young man, a boy. I don't know the difference. So, yeah, we had a lot of conversations, but they weren't positive. But then, like I told you, I end up in Dallas. No one knew where we were, but I had to let our neighbors know we're safe. Yeah, I call my mom all day long. Jewish family services. She goes to Salvation army, she goes to First People's Baptist Church. We needed help, we needed money, we needed. She needed gas in a car, she needed food. And I call and I find out through a friend that a neighbor from mine down the street in New York moved to Texas. I said, get me the number. Goes and gets the number later. I call. A few hours later, I call the number. Guy answers. Hello? I said, joey. He goes, how'd you get this number? Who is this? I said, it's Larry. He goes, larry, Larry north from West Hempstead? I said, yes. He. I said, Joey, this is a 214 number. Did you move to Dallas? He goes, no, we're in some town called Richardson. Well, that's where the hotel was that our car broke down in Richardson. Oh, my gosh, It's a suburb of Dallas.

Yeah.

His mother picks up the phone, very Italian, Maria. She goes, how'd you get this number? I told her. She said, larry north from the neighborhood. I said, yes, ma', am. You're coming to our house for a home cooked meal now. We had been eating such junk and she's an Italian cook. I couldn't wait. Yeah, I told my mom, I said, mom. She comes back. I said, mom, don't be mad at me. But I had to let someone know where we were. And you're not going to believe this. The Morrow family from New York is living in Dallas. They've invited us over for dinner. So she gathers us up, we go into the house. My mom, mom, are you okay? She looked like she's gonna pass out. She looked just white. Bleach, bleach, white. She looks at the sofa, she points to this woman, she goes, what are you doing here? The woman looks back at my mom, goes, what are you doing here? She goes, we know this family from New York. The woman on the sofa goes, my brother is his partner in the swimming pool business. My mom held my hand. She said, larry, that's the woman that's been helping me all day.

Oh, my gosh.

Sitting in the living room of the Morrows, she said, son, there is a God and God wants us here. And that was such a profound moment because everything started making sense to me. And ever since then, it makes sense to me because the hardships that have been put in front of me that helped shape my life today, we're all purposeful. I wouldn't be who I am.

That's what. That's where coincidence manifests as providence a hundred percent.

But that was it. That was for my mom to have said that and clinched my hand as tightly as she could. And so that was really a very profound day in my life. And. Yeah, so that's my. One of my many God moments.

Yeah. Does faith still play a pretty large role in your life now?

It has to, because I feel like I would be empty without that. Believe in something. Believe in whatever it is you choose to believe in, but believe in something that. That there's. There's some sort of a higher source. And so, yes, I, more than ever, I think as you get older, get grandbabies, you look at your life from the. A distance, you realize there are no coincidence.

Yeah.

At all.

Yeah. And your. Your wife, Brenda, she seems like a pretty magical person. I met her yesterday. She was at this event doing guided meditations all day in, like, this little private room. And I never actually got a chance to do one of the meditations with her, but in my brief interaction with her, she just seemed like a super, super cool person. Tell me about Brendan, how. How you guys came came to meet and be together.

Well, we had a mutual friend named Yvonne. This is about 18 years ago. For a year, Yvonne said, you've got to meet Brenda. I just think you guys are going to just hit it off. She was telling Brenda the same thing, but we sort of never got together until a year later. And I remember everything she was wearing that day that I laid eyes on her. Everything I can describe. If there was a little thread hanging off her shirt, I could point to it.

That's funny, because I remember, like, my wife and I were like, best friends for two years, but the day I actually became, like, physically attracted to her and kind of fell in love with her, I remember exactly what she was wearing when I took her and some of her friends out to a play. You know, this hot little red skirt and a white top and her hair all back in a ponytail. I remember that exact moment. That's funny.

Absolutely.

So you remember what Brandon was wearing?

Oh, I remember it. We had looked in her eyes and I said, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm feeling this. I just looked at this woman one time, and I'm feeling something unique and special I've never felt in my life. In fact, I even said to myself later that day, I thought I'd go my whole life without finding that person.

Yeah.

But I found her. And I'm a good salesman, too, so I had to chase her around Dallas for a little while. But as she would say, I was pretty persistent, which is one of my characteristics.

Yeah.

And we are now have a beautiful family. And she's. We're there to help each other, too.

How many kids?

Two step kids from for me and two kids for her. Adult Lauren, who actually is a huge fan of Ben Greenfield, listens to your podcast all the time. And I'm so proud. How many 31 year olds, female, that are that study biohacking.

Yeah.

Which is pretty cool.

Yeah.

And then Landon, my son, is 30.

Shout out to Lauren. And then, so, you know, speaking of persistence and being a good salesman, you're working with this Satori Capital firm. You know, one of our. Our Ben Greenfield Life like corporate wellness clients, which is how I originally met you at an event several months ago that I did down here at the offices. But how did you get involved with investing was at the same time you're doing the talk radio show or. How'd that happen?

No, see, Ben, I've been in this business 42 years. I worked at my first gym at Doug's Gym downtown. I was 16. I took a bus from Richardson to downtown, which was a hassle back then. So I've been in the business so long, basically felt like I was born in the gyms. But I knew that when I turned 60, I was going to hand over the reins to the rest of the amazing experts in the field. Was time for me to go. And that's what I did. So in May of this year, I fully retired from that world and luckily.

From the gym world.

Yeah. And then just organically went from fitness to finance. So I've had a wonderful career in fitness and so far I'm having a really nice career in finance as well.

So what's it look like for you? Just finding deals for Satori.

Yeah. So here to go back. So one of the co founders who you're very close with, I've known him since his 20s. I don't know if you knew that. And when I first met him, he said, larry, you're the reason for my first entrepreneurial business. I said, how? So he goes, I used to listen to your show on the weekends.

Oh, wow.

I talked my parents into letting me convert the garage into a gym and I started training people in the neighborhood. So we had an instant connection. And then Randy, the co founder, asked for Brenda and I to jump start their optimal living program almost eight years ago in February.

Okay.

And then he asked us if we could come to each other office once a month. Well, I'm a good listener. I observe, I watch, I pay attention. Started making some introductions. Some of those introductions were hugely impactful. That Randy one day sits down with.

Me and says, you mean introductions to other companies in the fitness sector?

No, introductory is to people who I thought would benefit from their platform.

Okay.

And long story short, I ended up having to become. Become a licensed FINRA rep, basically. So I'm Fully licensed broker. I had to take these three not so easy FINRA exams, but I passed them, so I was thrilled about that.

What's FINRA stand for?

FINRA is. Well, it's. It's where the SEC governs everything.

Okay, so you have to basically be a registered broker.

Yeah, yeah. To be a registered. And it's. It's pretty thorough. I mean, you have to go through quite a bit. But then I source companies to buy, and I've sourced some amazing companies, too. And it's relationships. My relationship portfolio is so valuable to me and so meaningful that if I connect the right dots with the right people, it's the easiest thing I've ever done in my life.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you. Are you allowed to, like, name. Because I know Satori does a lot of, like, better for you type of brands. And then I'm just curious if you're able to, like, name any of the. And the deals or any of the companies that you think are super cool you guys are working with right now?

I think all of them. Well, the one that I brought was a. You'll love this. A vitamin supplement manufacturer, so. Formulife.

Oh, Formulife.

Yeah.

Okay.

So Formulife was one of the companies I brought to Satori, which has been just a wonderful outcome. And you have to understand there, these. My values align with these guys. They're all about that. That conscious capitalism and just really, at the end of the day, just doing the right thing, which is very uncommon in the finance world.

Yeah.

I always say they'll throw their babies to alligators if it means making more money.

Yeah. Now, I know that. Fitness enthusiast, 61 years old. You're remarkably well put together. Thank you. And I know you've looked into hormone optimization quite a bit. I think both you and Brenda have messed around with some of that stuff. Tell me about what you know about hormone optimization and how you keep yourself put together in the way that you do. Because, I mean, I'll put a photo of you along with the. Along with the show notes, which will be at BenGreenfieldLife.com Larry north, if anyone wants to go visit the show notes. BenGreenfieldLife.com LarryNorth But, I mean, you cut an impressive figure. Your wife as well, looks young and put together. So what do you guys do from a hormone optimization standpoint?

Well, thank you for saying that, number one, and I appreciate that, especially coming from you. I was a flatliner, so. So what that means is in my early 30s, I flatlined. I had no testosterone in my Body with no explanation. I wasn't an abuser of steroids. I took them, but that wasn't the reason.

So is something like pituitary based or genetic?

Yeah. And so how I found out is I used to go to Houston every two months to have my measurements done. And I worked with a nutritionist that I loved in Houston. I'm going backwards. And he's saying, well, stop eating this. I said, I'm so strict. He says, you need to go to an endocrinologist. I did. And she had quite a sense of you.

How old?

You said 31.

31, yeah. That's pretty young.

Yeah. So she was. She had a good sense of humor, though. She said, your testosterone's 100. I didn't know anything about testosterone numbers. I said, that's an A, right?

She goes, no, not 100%.

She goes, no. She goes, in fact, you're low enough enough that if you hurry, you can make the third grade women's volleyball team.

Yeah.

You know, I had, like, no testosterone, and that was a hundred. So after using testosterone therapy, of course, I flatlined. But I worked with a company called Biot Medical.

Biot?

Yeah, Biot Medical.

Okay.

They didn't invent the pellets, but they are pioneers with the pellets. And I believe that you could eat correctly, you could exercise, ideal routine, get all the sleep you want, but if your hormones are low or extremely low, you're swimming upstream.

Yeah.

I mean, I almost could walk into any gym and look at people and almost know if they're hormonally low. And it's such a huge game changer. And often people will ask me, well, what are the long term studies and side effects if you're on testosterone? I said, there's a few side effects, but I could give you a big list of awful side effects if you're low in hormones.

So a lot of the deleterious effects of testosterone therapy typically come when the values are getting high. I mean, like 1200 plus. And that's when you start to see PSA rise and risk for cardiovascular disease rise. But then when you wash out those numbers, in many cases you see better brain function, better bone density, obviously more energy, better supporting off sarcopenia. Yeah, it's better. Beautiful.

Long list of good things that happen. And so here's what's interesting, though. At Biot was started by OB gyn. He knew that his female patients were aging out on him going through menopause. So he really created the company more for women because women rarely check their testosterone Levels.

Yeah.

And my belief is you don't want just one partner to be hormonally optimal. You want to be a hormonally optimal couple. And as you talked about going over 1200, I think most doctors that are knowledgeable about hormone replacement, I think the new norm is like 800 to maybe 1100.

Yeah.

I find that I feel better a little under a thousand.

And Brenda, and we should mention it's highly variable. Like I've seen people do just fine at 400.

Right. So. Right. And it's a personal decision, but for me it worked out really well. And plus, as you know, there's. That's just one hormone. There's lots of other ones.

Yeah. I mean a lot of the high functioning couples who I talked to, who I've worked with, the guy is typically on testosterone, not so much DHEA because that'll over aromatize and in many cases or not over aromatized, but convert into DHT and cause like male pattern baldness and increased aggressiveness and ball shrinkage and stuff like that. Typically guys don't do so much dhea, but a lot of times, you know, the guys are on like testosterone and a healthy, you know, higher fat, good calorie, denser, nutrient dense diet. But then the women, a lot of times, like women aren't aware of this, like how good they can feel. But they're on typically testosterone, progesterone and DHEA at a minimum. And there are women who are just like feel amazing. Yeah. Sometimes estrogen, depending on the progesterone estrogen ratios. But my wife, for example, she tests, we use the Dutch test for hormones, which is a dried urine test. Her testosterone levels are fine, but she has somewhat low progesterone and low DHEA. She's 41 and so she supplements with transdermal progesterone and then oral dhea. Right. But she doesn't need testosterone. If she was on it, she'd probably have levels that were too high, you know, or I don't know, get some, get some hair on her face or whatever. So it is truly dependent. But one thing you mentioned was the pellets. Tell people who aren't familiar with pellets how those work.

Well, so basically you have creams and gels, which I'm not a huge fan of, because what is the skin? The skin's designed to protect. So putting something on your skin and could rub off on your clothes, your dog, your kids. And also it's hard to really stay consistent with a cream or gel. But it is an option. Then there's injectables, which a lot of people do prefer, and pellets. It's sort of a set it and forget it for like anywhere from four.

They're literally like embedded underneath your skin.

Yeah, they look like little rice pellets. They aren't time release, but it works as if they are time released.

Right.

So you could get them, your testosterone pellets. And it's based on what you're like. If your testosterone, let's say you're a male and it's 250, they know how many pellets to get you to 900.

Yeah.

And you don't have to do anything, you don't have to think about it.

So a lot of times with the testosterone injections you get this big bolus, like once or two times a week, this big like surge in testosterone that in my opinion no way matches like the natural kind of diurnal morning and evening surge in testosterone that naturally occurs, for example, in a man. And so you get this big surge and you get a little bit of over aromatization to estrogen. You get like aggressiveness, you get kind of like that up, down, almost like a hyperglycemic, hypoglycemic type of response. And you know, I, I've advised most people either do the pellet or else, you know, with the, with the cream. I think that if you use cream and use a very small amount like a microdose and you apply it like scrotally morning and evening.

Right.

Again, the upkeep is a little more difficult to be careful not to get on people or babies or clothes or things like that. But the pellets are a pretty good option.

What you described with the injections is it has a short life. So you get your shot on Monday, really by probably peak on Wednesday, it's already coming back down by Thursday, Friday. So when people say, yeah, I go get shots, I get a shot 1cc every three weeks, I'm like, huh? Because now he's on a roller coaster. So one of the things is that you do want to maintain consistency within your hormone levels. But I'll say this and I could be wrong. I think most men that are over 45, if they don't know their testosterone number, I'm going to guess that it's low, low, normal.

Yeah.

So get a blood test, that's the first easy.

In my opinion, salivary or urine test is even better because that'll give you.

Like a 24 hour value and it's a game changer. For some people.

Yeah.

Complete game changer. And it's a. It's saves marriages, in fact. Good point.

Yeah. In addition to testosterone being something that can impede or accelerate weight loss, depending on what your levels are. I mean, you mentioned that in these 35 years of talk radio, a lot of people are interested in losing weight, Burning fat, accelerating metabolism, et cetera. Did you discover that there are kind of like patterns or trends that you would see that would either be the reasons people wouldn't lose weight or the things that you felt move the dial the most for folks whether. Whether, you know, emotionally or intellectually or physically or anything else.

Well, we know that nutrition has got to be at the top of the list. And as you alluded to earlier, there's so many different ways, you know, a lot of things work to lose weight. I imagine sticking your finger down your throat might work to lose weight, but obviously we don't recommend that. And we also know that you could follow sort of a traditional bodybuilding diet. You know, five, six meals a day, you know, low fat, break in lean.

Chicken and rice and hate yourself for 20 years.

Yeah. And if you want to eat like that and have your life disrupted and think about food every two hours, that would work to get you lean. But there's better ways and there's more efficient ways. But at the end of the day, if someone's goal is to lose weight, they say they're not. Let's narrow it down. We've already talked about most of it. Exercise, we can go right there. So if they're not exercising, that'll accelerate some weight loss. What type of exercising Change the type could accelerate weight loss, fat loss, nutrition. We know that calories do matter. We know that protein matters. We know that quality of food matters. So we can just start pinpointing where they might be failing. Hormones. If you're. You can do all that good nutrition and exercise, and that's good. Nothing wrong with that. But if you've hit the brick wall, get the hormones checked. Also, too. We know that a lot of people are on medications. A lot of medications have just awful side effects, from bloating to increased appetite.

Micronutrient depletion, which is huge.

Absolutely. So find out. I'm not saying to get off the meds that your doctor's having you use, but maybe there's alternatives, or maybe if you get healthier, you may not need them. And I would say there's another component. The fifth is the mind, learned behavior, attitude. So many people still to this day, because you're surrounded by all these sort of information seekers.

Right.

But if you cast a little beyond them, it's still USA People that are somewhat clueless, but they think that something that's good for them tastes bad and something that tastes good must be bad for them.

Right.

And. Or they just the whole, they push back right away. I don't want to change my eating habits. Or maybe they grew up in the south and they're used to eating certain types of cuisine. So.

So mentally or they're self conscious around their friends and their family, turning down certain foods.

Oh, or just like my mom, you know, she'd go on a diet and my dad, dad would say, ah, you're on another diet that won't work. So there's a lot of emotional baggage that comes with a lot of people that have struggled with weight control too. So if they change their mind, they move their body, they make better for you food choices, they stay hormonally optimal. And assuming they're not on any medications, it's impossible for them not to get results.

Yeah, yeah. How do you and Brenda eat?

That's a great question. I'm gonna be honest with you. I fought it for a long time. I'm an old school guy, Ben. So what worked for me was no longer starting to work. And I was starting to resent having to cook food. Half food, special order food. It just got tiresome after a while. And the guy that I go to get my blood work, which I do every three months, he kept pushing me, go lower carb. I'm telling you, he could look at my blood work. My triglycerides were never like Brenda's, always. Hers are always 50 or 60, and mine could never break a hundred. And I finally did it. I switched to three meals when I'm wanting to get lean. No snack.

You got out of that like six meals a day. Metabolism, elevated type of mentality.

Oh, and I Learned so much. 1 I3 meals. And it's quality protein, good fats and good fibrous vegetables and very little carb for me. Brenda can take in a little bit more carbs with her body type. And I thought, there's no way this is going to work. I'm not getting enough protein. Yeah, I can eat out without even having to drive the server crazy and upset the kitchen. And it just over time, I'm like, oh my God. I'm going on my in body and I'm like getting rapid results.

Right. So primarily by cutting meal frequency down to three times per day and then cutting carbs.

Cutting carbs and, and not snacking right now, that's, which is huge.

That's what I tell a lot of people. Cut down to three meals a day and then you actually look at their diet and they'll like grab a handful of almonds, walk in through the office, or you know, finish their kids meal. After they finish their meal, they don't count the calories. By the end of the day, you got like 600 extra calories.

They don't count the calories they eat when they're standing up.

Right, exactly. Looking into the refrigerator, those don't count. Like my mom said, if you eat standing up, it's all calorie free.

Yeah. And so, yeah, it was. So now I'm like, okay. And then there's other things. When you're 31 years old or 35 or even 40, are you that concerned about inflammation? Well, get to 60, you start to get concerned about inflammation.

Right. And so it completely blunts fat oxidation.

Yeah. All these good things started happening as I got out of my stubborn mindset. So my advice to people is be open minded. Be open to trying new things. And I think that's where food science and gurus like yourself have really changed the food narrative.

Yeah, yeah. For you, when you say low carb, do you like keep track of actual grams? Because for some people that's 20 grams. You know, like the keto people are 20 to 40 grams. Others low carb, it's like 100, 250. Or do you just kind of like average?

I'm average. I'd say on a get lean cycle right now where I wanting to get leaner, probably 50 to 80.

Yeah, I'm pretty physically active. I typically am close to 100 to 200 grams of carbs a day, most of them in the evening with dinner. So I'm in fat burning mode all day long. I'll typically have some low glycemic index blueberries with my smoothie in the morning during the summer and the spring and the warmer months where there's exposure to the sun because the sun can actually increase your insulin sensitivity. So my glycemic variability is fine just with berries. And then I just go into fat burning mode all day long. Protein and vegetables like you described and good fatty acids. And then I'll do anywhere from 100 to 200 carbs with dinner. Right, 200 grams of carbs with dinner, like sweet potatoes, red wine, a little chunk of dark chocolate or whatever. And I stay. I think the two keys that I have, and obviously I've still got the high metabolism. I'm, you know, 21 years younger than you are. But between that and then every single day I do 20 to 45 minutes of exercise, fasted when I get up in the morning, and I always finish with two to five minutes of cold. And I'm convinced that, like, cold is that variable that pushes people over to the edge, because that's what I discussed in my talk yesterday. It's like that's that hormetic stress, that discomfort scenario. From a thermoregulatory standpoint and a blood glucose control standpoint, I've seen nothing come close to just like getting into shiver mode when you're fasted, preferably with some kind of caffeine or something in your system, which accelerates it even more. But consistently every day, like, I never have to worry about my lean body mass or my fat percentage if I'm doing those two things consistently. Cutting carbs and saving them for the end of the day, and then the aerobic fasted exercise with the cold in the morning. And it just works like gangbusters.

Do it wherever you are, even if you're traveling, you travel a lot. I'll tell you something interesting. So going back to, like, no access to technology, do you know when they used to tell you to eat your carbs?

Oh, probably all with breakfast, oatmeal and cereal.

Yeah. So there's an example. Example of they were wrong. It's better to eat them in the evening.

I don't know that they were wrong as much as that. The argument was, well, you're more insulin sensitive in the morning due to that cortisol waking response, which is true. But by not giving your body carbohydrates, or not giving your body a lot of carbohydrates, at least, because fat oxidation does need a little bit of glucose in order to occur. But basically, by limiting carbohydrates in the morning, you're forcing your body to burn an alternative fuel, typically fats or ketones or some proteins the rest of the day. And then people like, why would you eat carbs in the evening when you're less insulin sensitive in the evening? And the reason is because it's very easy to induce a state of insulin sensitivity by doing an evening exercise session, by having a shot of apple cider vinegar before you have dinner, or some kind of blood glucose disposal agent, by doing a cold shower in the, in the later afternoon or the early evening. So it's kind of like you can have your cake and eat it too. But the key is to kind of realize that even though you're more insulin sensitive in the morning, that doesn't mean it's the best time of day to eat carbs. Probably with the only exception being if you're like an athlete who's exercising all day long, like you got to keep the glycogen coming in. But if we're talking about fat loss.

Well, you bring up a great point just there. Let's take the diet of people that play professional football. That receiver has to be single digit body fat. The running back needs to have more body fat. The linemen have to have that extra body weight. So all three diets are going to be different because they're very specific. And so how do we get specific with the average person that's listening just to lose weight? You just pretty much nailed it.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, obviously the physical activity component a part of this. Yesterday, like I started my talk talking about walking and how most people, very first thing they need to do is just get 10,000 steps a day. And I don't care how it's done, you know, in the evening, after dinner, taking your phone calls or walking. You know, some people ask me, you know, why do you do your podcast when you guys are walking? And I say, well, it's because I practice what I preach. If why would we sit down in chairs to walk? And I know, you know, you got a little bit of a bum hip going on right now, Larry, but you're graciously out on a stroll in the sunshine anyways. We're getting vitamin D and the fresh air. And so, you know, I talked a lot about that minimum goal of 10,000 steps a day. But I'm curious, for you or for Brenda, do you guys have other things that over the years you've just found a frickin work when it comes to exercise?

Yeah, weights. You know, I always say the fountain of youth is that water fountain in the weight room usually. So weights, I mean, you know, and there's so many different ways.

Not the actual water fountain though, folks.

Yeah, not the chef drinking the pharmaceuticals. Yeah, yes. And so, yeah, I mean she is a yoga fanatic.

Certified yoga, like hot yoga or.

She likes every kind of yoga. She's certified in kundalini yoga. So when you were talking about breath, I looked at Brenda because she does an hour of breath work every day. And so that's her form of release and exercise. But I always say this, no matter how fast you can run, you can't outrun a donut. It's gonna Catch you. You ain't gonna outrun that donut. And I used to say, maybe.

Well, you actually can from a body fat stand, because I know a lot of. When I was an Ironman triathlete, I used to pull in for cinnamon rolls and cookies all the time. But even though I was lean, I was hyper inflamed, Right. Yeah. And the gut was horrific.

And you were also. Yeah. And you were an elite athlete, too. But most runners will someday say the same thing. I used to be a runner.

Yeah. I say that it is. And I tell people now I run to the mailbox. As I was saying, I run to play a little bit of pickleball and tennis and everything else. I just walk. And I feel so much better considering running to be a sprinting activity or occasionally if I just gotta, like, hoof it to a meeting. I walk a lot when I travel, and sometimes I wait for a meeting, so I'll run. It's pretty rare, though, that I just go for a run because it just. It beats up. It's great if you want to go do a triathlon or a marathon or something, but, I mean, it's not going to make you healthy, and it's not the best way to lose weight.

Do you realize when you said that yesterday in your presentation, that was the most beautiful orchestra to my ears, because Ben Greenfield, the super intense athlete, is saying, hey, walk, move your body. That's all I've been ever saying, is you walk. And I'm a walker. I've been a walker my whole life. And I'm like, all right, I'm spot on. I'm doing the walk. And if people would just do that, it's such a. A great way to just biohack in a sense.

You're pretty muscular. What kind of weightlifting do you do at your age?

I do old school, like bodybuilding style, or just.

Just tell me about it.

Yeah, I. So I. I lift weights probably five, six times a week. Never. I set my clock for 60 minutes because no matter where I am in the workout, I will not be in that gym more than 60 minutes.

Yeah, that's funny. That's what I tell my. I go to the gym, I set the clock for 60 minutes, and that might not include, like, jumping in the pool afterwards or whatever.

Right.

I tell myself if I gotta be doing this longer than 60 minutes, I'm.

Probably doing something wrong if I can't get it done in 60. And usually I get it done, like in 45. But I do like to split the body parts up and we. I'm an intuitive trainer. I just sort of train based on what I. What I feel. I just love that the gym is my meditation. That's where I've been for. Since I'm a teenager and I just. I love that place.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, simple routine, but I still do. Excellent form, good technique. I'm isolating my muscles when I work out. I've. I've been doing this so long that it's just second nature to be able to get the most out of my workouts.

Yeah. You know, a lot of, like, older people who I talk to say that they, as they get older, they really struggle with sleep. Have you found that to be the case with you or with Brendan? What do you guys do about that?

She can sleep. Boy. She's. I'm that guy.

Sounds like my wife. She sleeps like a log.

Yeah, I mean, sleep's an issue. If I remember correctly, at the Biot Clinic, the number one prescribed medication are sleeping aids. And it's a problem. I've. I've had a bit of a problem over the years sleeping. And a lot of it's like, now I have a bad hip that needs replaced so that it's hard to get comfortable.

Yeah.

But Brenda is a great sleeper and sleep is a big deal to us. But it's funny, we go to bed pretty early. Like 8:30, 8, 30, 9, 9:30, 10. We're in the bed.

My wife and I go to bed, 9:30. So. Yeah. Yeah. Do you. Have you tried the. The kion sleep? Not to toot my own horn.

I need to. I haven't.

Yeah. I gotta get you by. That stuff works like gangbusters.

You know, you.

You were also telling me about this idea of, I think, what you described as like a lack story. I wasn't sure you meant by that, but. But get into that because it's obviously something you want to share.

Let me give you the Reader's digest version. I was 27 years old. My brother was 17. He lived with me. I had power of attorney. He's a twin. My other brother went with my mother who had cancer surgery. She went to California to recuperate with her, with her sister. And, you know, we lived in a pretty dumpy apartment and I had to take care of him. And I'm bouncing in bars and I'm training people and I'm just getting by. And a very prominent, wealthy man in Dallas requested me to meet with him. He wanted me to train him. Yeah, he lived all crazy across town in the nicest neighborhood. Maybe in the Southwest called Highland Park. I said, henry, I can't do this, man. It's not worth it just to come all the way here to train you. He says, have you ever thought about having your own gym? I said, thought? That's all I ever think about. People get nauseated me talking about my own gym so much.

And by the way, that's funny, because when I was a personal trainer, like a fledgling, beginning personal trainer, that was like, top the totem pole, someday open your own suit. Which I wound up opening two of them, but. But, yeah, it's totally a personal trainer thing.

It is. Well, like a way.

A server finish line.

A server wants a restaurant. Yeah. Our chef, so. So they put a lease in front of me. I was smart enough to have a broker look at it. It was a great deal, it looked like. And I sign it, and I get home, my brother's sleeping. So, Adam, wake up. Look at this baby. I just signed a lease to the Highland Park Village. And I'm, like, so pumped up. He goes. He goes. He literally, to this day, calls me big bro. He goes, big bro? How are you gonna do that? You don't have any money. I said, hey, don't worry about that. Come down three flights of stairs. Help me with this new piece of furniture for our apartment. It was a treadmill.

Yeah.

So we lugged the treadmill up, and I said, adam, I've got a lot to do. I'll be back in a few hours.

So you know what he does? He puts the treadmill where he could see himself in his bathroom mirror. I come back, he's jogging in tighty whities and white sneakers. I said, what are you doing? He says, big brother, if you're gonna open up a gym, I gotta get in shape. I shut the treadmill off. I said, sit down. We're gonna have a talk. I said, adam, this is my dream. This is my dream. I know it's not your dream. What's your dream? Because I'm going to need your help. If you help me live my dream, I will do everything in my power to help you live your dream. He said, well, I want to retire when I'm 35. I want to travel around the world, and I want to live the good life. I said, could you repeat that? He repeats it like it was a reel spinning in his head.

Yeah.

And he repeats it. And I said, adam, all right, that's an ambitious goal. And all of a sudden, he goes, well, how are you going to do this gym with. With no money? I Said Adam, from this point forward, I'm not going to get lack of money, lack of family support, lack of believers, lack of friends, lack of schooling, lack of education. Stop me, prevent me from achieving everything I want. Because if I do, if I allow those roadblocks, I'm gonna be stuck in this junky apartment the rest of my life. And you can't do the same either. You've got to push back that. You've got to figure out how you can get beyond those objections. And so, Ben, I got that gym open, and the rest is history.

My brother. Yeah, he didn't retire when he was 35. He was 36. He didn't go around the world once. He did it twice on that American Airlines flight.

He retired when he was 36?

Yeah.

How did he make his money?

He was in the restaurant business. He had stock in a publicly traded company, and when they sold it, he said, I'm checking out. He lives the good life in Tulum, where he has a place, and he just built a place in Thailand.

Holy cow.

Living the good life.

Wow. Wow, man. That. That dude. That's a.

It goes.

36 years old.

He's 52 now.

Yeah.

And just a beautiful heart, space human being. But we went through a lot, and like we talked about earlier in this podcast, everybody goes through a lot. If they don't give it some time, it'll catch up with you, I promise. But it's all part of. It's. It's all part of our personal story in our. And our personal roadmap. So, yeah, it all worked out well, taking a few risks.

So what. What. What do you envision for you? I mean, that you're working with Satori now that you're a registered broker? Where do you see the next, like, five, ten years going for you?

That's a great question. I'm gonna do extremely well in this field, which is so, you know, I hate to say easy, because it just. I think often at times we can make things look easy when they're a lot harder than they really are. But it's such a pleasurable job for me that I could probably do anything I want, but I don't know what 70 has in store for me, but, you know, just really probably live that good life like my brother. Just enjoy life and be my best self. I want to always be an ambassador to the field. That gave me a good life.

Yeah.

So I just want to represent. Well.

Yeah. And of all the stuff that you said, you picked up a few things yesterday, and all the newfangled stuff. Right. Like, I imagine when I'm 61 and I go to some exercise conference or something like that, I'm going to see stuff that I'm just like, holy cow, I didn't know about that. Anything yesterday you think is really going to stick with you as far as just, like, things you're going to incorporate.

I have a feeling 20 years from now, you'll be the one speaking on stage. But yeah, I mean, really, some of the simple things that I was not doing, like getting sunlight, staying grounded by just taking my shoes off and just letting the earth, you know, fill up my toes. Yeah. Things like not understanding how the various light you have could be damaging.

Right. And like lag versus halogen versus incandescent.

And I thought I was doing something good drinking out of a plastic water bowl because I'm drinking filtered water. But I guess there's just so much that you can add to your repertoire and your goal to be your best.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, what I have noticed about you and a lot of people who stay remarkably well put together as they age is like they stay constantly curious. They're always adjusting, always adding, always humble enough to make changes, even when they hear from the young whippersnappers or whatever, what they should be doing rather than staying stuck in their ways. And, I mean, I see a guy like you just continue to evolve to your 70s and beyond. It's actually been pretty cool. Cool to get to know you because I thank you. I find you and Brenda pretty inspiring. I was telling you, I got to get Brandon to meet my wife now.

Well, no question. And it's mutual. I think God put us in our lives for a very specific reason. And, you know, it's like a black belt. A lot of people don't know the history of a black belt. Might be a great place to sort of end.

Yeah.

There was only two. Two colors, basically, and it was white. It got black through experience, through dirt. It got dirty. That's how it got black. But then over time, your black belt wore off again.

Yeah.

And it got white. So, in essence, I'm a white belt.

Yeah.

I've done all my teaching now. I want to learn now. I want to be in the audience. I want to be a student. I want to raise my hand and say, ben, what about this?

That's what I'm gonna have to title this podcast, Larry how to be a Forever White Belt.

I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I going to put all the show notes for people along with links to everything you sent over because you sent over some fantastic PowerPoint presentations from talks that you've given on things we didn't get a chance to delve into that much relationships, networking, inspiration, et cetera. So I'm going to put all that@bengreenfieldlife.com Larry north those of you listening in BenGreenfieldLife.com LarryNorth if you want to learn more about Larry, go to the show Notes. I'll link to what he does. If you want to learn more about Satori and their efforts in conscious capitalism, I'll link to them as well. And if you want to leave questions or comments or feedback from me or for Larry, this is always an ongoing conversation. You go to BenGreenfieldLife.com Larry North Larry, thanks for coming on the show.

My pleasure. This has been a pure joy.

That's right.

Thank you.

Pure Joy, along with 5,000 steps and some sunshine, baby. All right, later everybody.

More than ever these days, people like you and me need a fresh, entertaining, well informed and often outside the box approach to discovering the health and happiness and hope that we all crave. So I hope I've been able to do that for you on this episode today. If you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel, wherever that might be, and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. Means a lot.