How To Be "Forever Strong", Creating The Right Amount of FRICTION In Your Life, Official Protein Rules & More, With Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast, as we get older, we become less efficient at this process.

Therefore, age is my first decision in how much protein that we need. The older that you are, the more protein that you need.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, Longevity and beyond.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, you probably heard of her. She's a very accomplished physician. She's New York Times bestselling author of "Forever Strong." She just wrote this book, "Forever Strong Playbook." It's great. We talk about it in today's show and just unpack her super inspiring tips for protein, for muscle, for challenging yourself mentally, physically, emotionally, environmentally. All the shownotes are at BenGreenfieldLife.com/ForeverStrong. Enjoy the show. For those of you who have been living under a rock in the health and fitness world and may not have heard of Gabrielle, she is a physician who's known for the whole muscle-centric medicine approach. I think even muscle-centric trademarks. Do you actually own that term now?

Yes. Muscle-centric medicine was not a construct prior to my fellowship training. So, it's kind of cool.

Right. And, probably one of the most interesting things I heard you say this year was that the skin is not, as we all learn even in college, I think we learn this, that the skin is the largest organ. I believe that's the way it was phrased.

But, it's not. No, it's not. It's muscle. And listen, think about it this way, 40% of your body weight is technically supposed to be muscle. For you, it's probably 50%. This is actually an endocrine organ just like the thyroid is an organ, like the heart is an organ. And, we don't have physicians that focus and study on the science of muscle as an endocrine organ.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you say that. I didn't have this prepped for the shownotes, but this was literally a study that just, like, just came out, like, I just found out about yesterday. Physical exercise, vigorous physical exercise allows for temporary transport shuttles to be upregulated for key hormone precursors to enter the brain, shifting mood, shifting anabolism, et cetera. There's like 4x increase in hormone precursors to the brain during vigorous exercise including weight training. I love that.

And, do you know what else actually happens which is so fascinating is this upregulation in receptor density. So, for androgens, for example, when we think about testosterone, the receptor density increases in the muscle, the availability will increase, which is extraordinary. Because frankly, it's the only thing that we have voluntary control over is our movement. I mean, one could argue we can control our mind to a certain extent but not to the same extent as if I say, "Okay, Ben, I need you to do 50 squats." You can tell your brain to do 50 squats.

Ben Greenfield: Right. Yeah. And, you hear everybody talk about increasing total T, bioavailable T, total T to free T ratios, modulating sex hormone binding globulin, all of these different methods for from an upstream hormonal standpoint. Not a lot of people talk about increasing hormone receptor density. And, it's weight training. And, I don't know if— you've probably talked about this before, the highest concentration is in the legs. So, say goodbye to toothpick leg day at the gym.

That's right. Well, Monday is universal chest day and then Tuesday is universal leg day. And actually, we just published a paper, my colleagues and myself at Baylor, I was a senior author on this paper that looks at the relationship between sexual function, muscle mass, and strength. And, I think what's really important there is we have a mechanism of action. You have been in this space for, I don't know, should I say 20 years? I mean, at least.

Me? Since I was 14, 30 years.

Yeah, at least 20 years, like the OG. And, by the way, we're going to circle back to actually when I first heard about you. I don't even think you remember, because we're going to talk about a crucible event, which is what I talk about in the playbook.

Oh yeah.

By the way, I'll finish this statement. So there's a mechanism as to why having more healthy muscle mass improves sexual function.

Okay.

Which is number one, endothelial health. Right. Incredible vascular health. Also metabolic health from, say, an insulin resistance perspective. Muscle is really that organ of longevity. So, the more healthy muscle mass you have, the better insulin— insulin sensitivity you have. The more healthy muscle mass you have, the greater vascular health, the greater ability to produce NO2, which is a vasodilator, hence, the better sexual function. And, when you think about it, I'll just finish with this, 40% of men by the age of 40 have erectile dysfunction, 50% of men. 50% of men have erectile dysfunction by the age of 50. And again, it's a relationship problem. It's not one or the other, right? It's a couple's problem and it's fixable.

Not to mention the psychosomatic component of increased confidence if you are strength training. So, yeah, there's a lot there. I remember I think you texted me that finding a couple of months ago. Super interesting.

Okay, Ben, do you have a photographic memory? That's ridiculous. Do you have a photographic memory?

A little bit, yeah. Although, it's hard because you hear people say photographic memory and it's kind of like, "Well, I don't know exactly what that feels like, but it feels like I do." That's one of the very, very few inherent skills I have is remembering stuff for better or worse. I think it's probably related to COMT pathways, dopamine pathways, the same type of pathways that result in being wound up, needing to close loops, and not letting anything go from the bulldog mind until you've gotten it down on on paper or elsewhere.

I think I could say I don't know what it is. Again, I've been a physician, a practicing physician. I graduated med school in 2006. I probably know 3 people with a photographic memory. I don't know if it has anything to do with pathways. I think, I don't know, I think it's like a God inherent quality or like a gift. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Hardwired to see danger and remember things. So, I want to talk about this, this book, "Forever Strong Playbook." I read your original book, "Forever Strong." I think we actually talked about it in our last podcast, but I was reading this right as I was kind of getting ready for 2026. We're recording this at the tail end of 2025, literally 2 days before Christmas. And, when I got to page 13, it says, "Are you sure you're climbing the right ladder? Are you sure you're climbing the right ladder?" And, there's this list qualities in myself I want to work on in 2026. There are things like courage in the form of embracing new adventures, trust in the form of letting go, love in the form of seeing, hearing, and loving others better. And, one of the qualities I wrote down was intention, having a great deal of intention and forethought behind everything I do physically, mentally, professionally, et cetera. So, I thought this question was really interesting. Why did you kind of ask that early on in a book about mental and physical strength?

Yeah. Well, I want to frame up as to why there's even a "How to Think" section. And, many of us and many of your listeners, many of your viewers, they probably read at least 25 health and wellness books. And, the reality is people have a ton of information, but there is a gap between being able to assimilate the information and then being able to actually execute. On something that's really meaningful. And so I had to ask myself, if this playbook is going to really move the needle for people, then it has to address the most fundamental questions and really our driver, our computer driver, which is the brain. And so this is— when you open up this playbook, by the way, this is the book that I originally had wanted to write. It's how to think and how to process and put guardrails up for the way in which we think, because people can spend a lifetime working towards something, but that might not be the thing that they really want. And so it's the idea of, are you climbing the right ladder? And the right ladder is being very clear as to why it is that you are doing something, and then understanding where your values and your attributes fit into that so that you can ultimately take the next right action.

So, do you ever share with people what your ladder is, like what ladder you're climbing?

No, but I'm happy to.

I'm kind of curious.

No one has probably ever asked me. Right now, this is a ladder of contribution. I believe, again, we were talking beforehand, we're a military family and I believe that if you have the ability to be of service, that you have a responsibility to do that. So right now, the ladder for me is contributing in the way that I believe that I'm uniquely positioned to. And what that looks like is building stronger, more resilient humans. Because I'm a mom of two very little children, they are 4 and 6, and I want them to be able to grow up in a world that supports this— I don't know, like this little Spartan, this little Spartan family, which I think that we can all develop. You and I were chatting, and so, um, for me, the latter right now is contribution to the general population. And then selfishly, as to why that is, is because I have two little humans that are growing up within this. And so I want them to be able to be exposed and sharpen their own sword and to really be able to focus on the things that matter instead of, for example, overcoming bad habits for 40 years.

Yeah. So, they're already doing cold plunging. We talked about that before we started recording. What are a couple of other things that you're doing with your kids that most of the world would be like, "Whoa, it's a little extreme, maybe a little bit too Spartan-esque," but that you know is going to increase their resilience?

Well, our kids train. Our kids are extremely physically strong and actually mentally tough, which is are pretty extraordinary to watch because we don't push it on them, but we've exposed them to hard physical training their entire life. I trained throughout my pregnancy and then after pregnancy when I had these— I have a little baby and then another little baby. I had them 18 months apart as I was training. There was not really a huge amount of time not being physical. And so, you know, I came downstairs just recently and it was 8 PM. We have pretty strict bedtimes. Bedtime is 8 PM. And my son is on the Woodway, this curved treadmill, very similar to what I'm walking on right now, doing sprints, full speed sprints. I'm like, Leonidas, what are you doing? It's bedtime. He's like, well, Mom, I got to get my training in. I got to get my second training session in. He's 4 and—

Wait, wait, his name is Leonidas?

Yes.

So, you're full-on Spartan.

So, our son is Leonidas and our daughter is Ares Hunter after the god of war. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking that they might be wallflowers. That didn't really work out that way. And thankfully, with names like that, They are not. But the kids are training. And my daughter doesn't like to cold plunge. We don't make her cold plunge. She doesn't have to. But my son, it's so interesting to watch when we think about the values and the attributes of both families and individuals. He believes that hard work is good. And he, again, I mean, it's pretty scary when your 4-year-old is trying to learn how to swim and goes right under the water. But instead of freaking out, wants to try again and again and again until he can swim. So, I think probably most parents are not exposing their children to hard physical work. We do challenges and we make it competitive in the house. People might disagree with that, but we are all up for good healthy competition.

I love that both mentally and physically. I mean, our sons, by the time they were 8, they'd done at least a dozen triathlons including including a full adult sprint triathlon in Thailand in the middle of the heat when they were 7 years old. They did 6 years of Spartan racing during the time I was racing on the Spartan circuit, cold plunging since they were 3. Some of the main elements for us was cold, heat, kettlebells, tons of barefoot hiking, barefoot sprinting, barefoot running, and outdoor animal-esque training. And then, just because I was racing until I was 37 and retired, they were on the triathlon and Spartan racing circuit with me. So, they were doing all of that. And, it's so funny, people now are like, "Oh, are they playing football? Are they out competing on the junior triathlon circuit?" And, they basically started a card game company. And, they're still just rugged, tough, physically and mentally resilient boys, But yeah, it doesn't mean that your child has to be a savage for their entire career.

I think that that's so fascinating. I don't know if I knew that about you that the kids— I've known that they were always really physically active. I didn't know that they were—

Yeah. They logged a lot of miles. They logged a lot of miles because they just— I mean, you probably know this, every event you go to, there's usually a junior version or a kid's version. So, they did those. And, The mental piece because, again, I like this about you that you're not just about physical brute meathead strength and you get into the mental strength in the book. There's a section, I have it circled, there are the 3 A's of mental strength: awareness, assessment, and activation.

Yeah. So, we have a lot of thoughts that are happening all the time and most of them are not actually relevant. If you do not treat your mind and train your mind the same way and to the same degrees you train your body, you're leaving a lot on the table. And when I say leaving a lot on the table, muscle and strength, all of that is the entry point for being ultimately the best version of oneself. And so awareness is— there's all these thoughts and many of them are completely irrelevant. You have to be able to then take the next step, which is assessment. And quite, quite frankly, uh, A didn't actually go with D. This is essentially discernment. Is this a valuable thought or not? And you have to be able to take stock in the perspective of, I'm thinking all these things, is this relevant? And is this in line with my values? And then activation is actually the action. You select a response of being able to build into your own identity where you want to go as opposed to just being pushed around. It's not really about habits that you want to break. I think in our culture, there's a lot of focus on loss. I have to lose weight. I have to do this as opposed to really focusing on the positive, which is How do we build ourselves up? And what are the choices in both words, thoughts, and actions that really have a positive outcome? The other part about the kids is our kids pray before every meal. They go to chapel every Thursday. We tell them 5 things, and they have to also exhibit those 5 things. And the 5 things are the following: I am strong. I am kind. I am worthy. I am courageous. And I am loved. I love it. And this is just, again, a tactical way of how we use it for our little kids versus if you think about the adult version of these things. You might hear adults say, I'm just not that athletic, or I'm just too old, or it's my genetics, or I could never X, Y, and Z. And Number 1, are any of these thoughts true? Probably not. And number 2, are any of them relevant? Which is really the assessment part. And then finally, number 3, what is the outcome or the action that you're going to take to choose to move into a more powerful version of oneself? Again, how do we train the body? That's easy. How do we train the mind? That also requires very specific structure. That is easy and accessible for people.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. And, as you're describing this, I think one thing that leaps out to me is how much confidence it takes to do that because self-awareness means you're looking more internally than at what the world expects you to be. And then, when you're looking at the assessment or the discernment part, you need to be connected enough to yourself and confident enough in yourself to know that you can kind of listen to the conscience and you've formed enough wisdom to be able to do so. And then, activation is, of course, the courage and the confidence to do it. And I'm assuming as someone goes through an average day that this becomes almost like unconscious competence where it's just decision is awareness, assessment, activation, go over and over again throughout the day.

That's exactly right. And ultimately, that's what you want. You don't want to have all of your mental energy tied up in having to course correct yourself. And again, are you climbing the right ladder? Yeah, we all have a limited amount of time here, and what we do and how we think matters because it informs also the next right action.

Now, you and I are probably like a little bit biased when it comes to the action piece in that like, um, I think we embrace physical challenges and increasing mental and social challenges, but you present this as almost friction. I think a lot of people flee from friction to a certain extent, like the discomfort that comes with it. And this was honestly one of my favorite parts about the book because I live by this philosophy that every year you need to have something on the calendar that kind of scares the hell out of you. Like this year, It's spearfishing, free diving, hog hunting, and gator hunting down in Florida in May with my sons, right? So, over the next few months, we got to be shooting the bow, we got to be working on wrestling skills, our knife skills, our breathwork skills, our diving skills. And you grow a ton when you have something like that on the calendar, but you lay out all these different ways to increase friction. You go beyond the physical. So, tell me about your thoughts on friction and why we need it and how you kind of think about the different categories that we could increase friction.

Yeah. So, the idea of friction I think is obvious. The idea of friction is putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation. And that could be mentally, physically, or spiritual. People really feel like friction is the thing to avoid. We develop lives around seeking comfort. And again, part of this might be cultural, but I think that seeking friction really refines you and it helps an individual grow. It creates resistance. And, you know, you don't grow when things are butterflies and rainbows. You just don't. You must put yourself in positions to be just, you know, uncomfortable. And that is creating friction. And oftentimes people think about friction as just this physical. In the way, which is where I first heard about you many years ago. Do you know where this was? I'm just curious if you remember.

Oh man, um, I don't know if you're gonna remember. I was like Iron Man.

Um, no, it was actually Mark Divine's Kokoro camp.

Oh, Kokoro. Okay, you might have to tell people what Kokoro is.

Um, Ben doesn't know this, but we've known— so Mark Divine is a former Commander SEAL. Mark is a very special human. He's cloaked in this SEAL way, but really he's this meditation yogi, which is very unusual. And many years ago, at least 10, so how many years ago? It was probably actually closer to 20. He designed, because after 9/11 is when my husband joined the Navy, he designed something called Kokoro Camp. So Kokoro Camp is a Japanese word for I don't know exactly, but maybe it's like finding your spirit, whatever it is.

I just thought I meant beat your ass down for 3 days.

That's actually what it was. So it's a mini Hell Week. Hell Week, for those of you guys who are unfamiliar, is what the SEALs go through. It's a selection process. My husband— so my husband was a SEAL for 10 years, recently retired. Now he's in his 3rd year of surgical residency as a urologist. And he, before he went into the SEAL teams, went to Mark for the experience of Kokoro. Okay. Which is so interesting. And this is where I first heard about Ben. You must have been in the first handful of classes of doing this Kokoro camp, which is this 50-hour beat your ass down. And that is an example of creating friction. So, it's cloaked in the entry point is physical friction.. But ultimately, it becomes much more of a mental challenge. And that's a big friction event as opposed to a small friction would be I love to train to loud music and caffeine. Give me all of it. You take that away, now you're creating problems for me.

Turn the music and the caffeine into a sometimes drug and you build mental resilience pretty fast.

So, that's an idea of creating more mental friction. You know, something that I use a lot with patients because I still actually see patients and I take care of a lot of, you know, CEOs and people that are really looking for something more. And one of the things that we do is we build out ways of creating mental friction in their day. For example, you flip a coin, heads you get that Starbucks, tails you don't. And so for 5 days, you can imagine how annoying that would be to go to Starbucks or whatever your place of choice is. You flip a coin, heads you get the order that you just ordered and tails that you have to pay for it and leave it.

Wait, are you leaving it for somebody else?

Yeah, but it's annoying. Yeah, it's annoying. And you do that over time, but by the, the 7th time of doing it, you care less whether you get it or not. You become a bit impartial to all of this external. And it doesn't have to be these big crucible events. You don't have to jump out of an airplane. You don't have to wrestle a gator to create small amounts of friction that ultimately add to a more robust human. And then emotional and social friction is also a way of friction, which is, um, can be really uncomfortable. For example, making yourself call that person that perhaps you don't want to, or, um, you know, for me it might be my mother-in-law, but you know, whatever. And, uh, you put yourself in positions where it's a bit uncomfortable and you have to be able to ride that wave.

Call them, not text them. When I was growing up, if you wanted to be courageous and have a hard conversation with someone, you'd have it face-to-face. And then, smartphones came along and now it's hard enough to call someone versus text them. I'm shocked at the number of people who will try to resolve something via text. It's almost easier to hide behind text messages compared to phone and of course, phone compared to face-to-face. Is something altogether different. And I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but I work with a lot of young people, kind of like Gen Z and around that general age range. And it's hard to get people to pick up the phone to make shit happen, to do a deal or to follow up on something versus text and email. So, even that is— what'd you call that? Emotional friction, environmental friction.

That's emotional friction. And you bring up a really good point because we are creating and fostering a way of somewhat of emotional disconnection. And while people experience that to be easier, that's not how humans were designed. We're not designed for that. And it's a skill. I actually really like that you brought that up because if we do things via text and we do things in a way that's digital, it's somewhat of a cop-out, and you don't have the same experience that it was actually required to resolve something, which is either face-to-face or a phone call, and to really be able to work through that. And now more than ever, we have to really consciously live. Otherwise, you know, like, I think a lot about AI. AI is— and AI is wonderful. So, for example, we use AI in medicine all the time. I use, uh, something called Open Evidence. Open Evidence allows me to look at the most up-to-date, um, anabolics, or the most up-to-date way of utilizing testosterone replacement therapy, or any of these things, right? And it allows us to look at all of the data, or what are these randomized controlled trials, and it's very valuable. But on the same hand, it allows humans the opportunity to think less for themselves and rely heavily on a computer thinking for them. And that is scary because thinking and discernment, these are all perishable skills.

Back to the children thing also, it's pretty easy. Let's say you just want to have a conversation with, I don't know, somebody you're interested in, like a member of the opposite sex. It's easy to slide into the DMs. It's a lot harder to actually ask somebody out to coffee and go there and sit with them and make eye contact. And, I tell my sons—

How old are your sons now? How old are they now?

They're 17, the twin boys. I tell them neither of these situations are ideal, but compared to smoking weed and watching porn in their bedroom, I would much rather them be hustling to get a fake driver's license and sneak into a bar to meet girls. I would rather them be doing the courageous and dangerous thing than the easy way out that so many halfway sterilized, I think especially males, engage in in today's digital culture.

Yes. And, it is exactly that. It's a digital culture in which we've removed all frictions. Physical, emotional, mental. And in order for us to really reorient ourselves to that, we have to put moments in place where it's challenging, truly. Otherwise, you know, I have a lot of concerns. I think that what's going to happen is the generations are going to separate, and it's going to be, um, generations like us where we think about how our children are being raised where they should be both tough and vulnerable all at the same time, but also a very conscious way of living, or the easy way out, which is reduce frictions at all costs. And I think that that's a real challenge and I think it's really dangerous and we don't even know what the repercussions are going to be.

Yeah, yeah. And we got to talk about protein and muscle and we will, but to put a bow on this idea of friction, You have— this is probably one of my favorite pages in the book, self-led crucible challenges. And then, I think on the next page, you have actual structured crucible challenges like Kokoro. So, some of these are pretty fun. I don't know if you remember all the ones that you wrote down, but things like 30,000 steps a day challenge for 30 days, which is great. I could maybe do that because I work on the treadmill, but that's a big one.

My dad, my 74-year-old dad, he's just killer, man.

Did he do that?

So yes, and my dad lives in Ecuador. The deal is if it's over 4 hours, we get to take a car. If it's 4 hours or less of walking to get to the location, we have to walk.

That's like when I travel, you probably run into this too. You might travel with a group of people and you gotta whatever, do like the Whole Foods stop. And, if Whole Foods is anywhere 2 miles or less from where I'm staying, I run, ruck, or walk there and then ruck all the groceries back. And, most people are like, "Wait, we don't have time to get groceries, we got to go to the gym." And, I'm like, "This is our workout, we're going to get groceries." But, you got to think in a different way.

You do. My husband, he runs to work and back. Every day, rain or shine.

It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. That's what I used to do when my office was 10 miles down the road. I lived in Liberty Lake, Washington. It was in Spokane, Washington. And yeah, every morning, and I was training for Ironman, so I had a reason, but ride to work, snow, rain, ice, didn't matter, ride back. And, if you paint yourself into that corner, we were just a poor one-car family, You know, it's just do it. And then, yeah, you've got other ones in here like Mental Murph, 60-minute workout in silence, which would torture a lot of people, followed by a 30-minute meditation, and then journal about discomfort. So, yeah, I love that page of the book. By the way, you guys, get the book just for these two pages alone so you get some ideas. And then, you have structured Crucible Challenges. Besides Kokoro, What are some ones that you really like that people could just go to the website, look at, and maybe sign up for something scary this year?

Yeah, a GORUCK would be great. HIROX, a lot of people are doing HIROX or Ironman Ultra or just a regular marathon.

Yeah, those are all— I was looking at before I decided to do the bow hunting spearfishing challenge, I was looking at the tactical games. That looks like another pretty cool one.

Oh, that looks cool. I mean, that looks amazing. I would love to do that. And the other thing that, you know, um, I would love to do, which I again have to really think about the time commitment, you guys do have to really think about this because you have to train up for it, would be adventure racing. I would love to do adventure racing.

Yeah. Yeah. I used to do that. It's, it's the best piece of advice for adventure racing is it doesn't matter how fast you're going. If you're going fast in the wrong direction because I made that mistake a lot in adventure racing. And then, the other one, they used to do more of these, they still have a couple of them, but they're kind of like the tactical games with a bow. There was one that I used to compete in called Train to Hunt. There is another one that's called like, I think it's called the Top Pin Challenge. And then, tactical games are with weapons. I think you have a carbine equivalent and a handgun and you're doing things like the sled pushes and sandbag carries in between getting your heart rate down to shoot, which just sounds like a great challenge.

Wow. I mean, it sounds amazing.

Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about the thing that you're probably really well known for, and that's the protein muscle piece. I want to get into some specifics on the nutrition piece. So, how much protein, and this is a two-parter, does that change if you're trying to build muscle or maintain?

This is a really interesting perspective that I don't think people talk about. And, to be fair, Ben and I have known each other for, gosh, a while now, and I've been talking about protein, I don't know, for the last 20 years. It's now finally getting the attention that it deserves, which is also hysterical. Uh, and I, I'm very grateful. And the protein conversation goes like this. How do we make protein decisions? There are 3 main ways in which we make them. Number 1, well, I would say first understanding that protein is the only and most important essential macronutrient as we age. You need like 3 or 4 grams of essential fatty acids. Carbohydrates, you can make all of them. When it comes to an actual need, an essential need, meaning your body cannot make it, protein is the most important. But what's interesting about dietary protein is that we turn over between 250 to 300 grams of protein a day, which means the body replaces itself roughly 4 times a year. As we get older, we become less efficient at this process. Therefore, age is my first decision in how much protein that we need. The older that you are, the more protein that you need. And that number, really the range, how we like to think about it is between 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of target weight.

Thank you for not doing kilograms since most of our listeners are in the US. Newsflash. Okay. So, 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of target body weight. Not a target body weight.

Okay. Target body weight. Again, if— and I imagine that most people are very into fitness that are listening to this— there's actually a U-shaped curve. If you are sedentary and over 40, or let's just say maybe even in your 60s, you need more protein than someone in their 40s. The older you are, the more protein that you need. If you are training as much as Ben, you can go to 1 gram per pound of target body weight. Your activity is really high, so you probably are utilizing carbohydrates and maybe a 1:1 ratio would be great for you. But, the protein amount should not go below 0.7 grams per target body weight.

Ben Greenfield: And, just to contextualize that, What would be the current governmental guidelines for protein intake compared to not going lower than 0.7 gram per pound?

The current recommendation, which is the RDAs, set at 0.37 grams per pound.

Oh, so half of what you're recommending almost.

And also, it's probably a completely irrelevant number. Everyone talks about the RDA, the recommended dietary allowance.

Yeah.

It's an irrelevant number. It's based on nitrogen balance studies from the early 1900s with no known health outcome. People are saying, "Oh, is it more than the RDA? Do we need more than the RDA? Do we need less than the RDA?" And, that's the wrong question. The right question is, "Is the RDA even a relevant number?" It's not. It's not even a relevant number, which is crazy.

Okay. And, for reaching that, I know, obviously, whole food sources are good, but You talk about protein-forward snacks in the book and those are cool, but supplements, do you add supplements in like rice, hemp, pea protein, whey protein, amino acids, things like that?

Yeah. So, no one should be going below 100 grams of dietary protein a day. What we found is that when individuals go below this, it seems to not have the same metabolic effect. Protein does a number of things aside from rebuild and repair. It's made up of all of these 20 different amino acids, all of which do unique and various things. For example, threonine is an amino acid that's essential for gut health. And when you eat to target muscle, you hit really the optimal number for all of these other amino acids. We need methionine for, um, glutathione production. Glutathione is the master antioxidant, and really our needs triple as we age in order to make enough glutathione. And while we think about dietary protein as this overarching one thing, it's not. It's 20 different amino acids, all of which have unique biological inputs for overall health and wellness. But if we target the needs of muscle, then everything else falls into place. So the minimum amount of protein— people should not go below 100 grams of protein a day.

Yeah, my son is trying to go from— he's about 165, he's trying to get to 180 right now. He's pulsing 3 separate times throughout the day, 10 grams of essentials, of essential amino acids. And I've done that before with some people who are really trying to put on size for sports or for a screen role. And that, that like pulsing with protein throughout the day, especially things like a supplemental form like whey protein or or amino acids seems to make a big difference.

Yeah. So, I love whey protein and I also love essential amino acids. And, the way in which we use essential amino acids in our practice are for the following ways. If someone is thinking, "Okay. Well, 1 gram per pound of target body weight, that's a lot of food and a lot of calories and I'm not interested." especially with the use of GLP-1s, perhaps someone's appetite is not there.

Oh, yeah.

So, what we use is we'll use, say for example, a smaller piece of fish because let's say an individual can stomach that. But, if that is a 2-ounce piece of fish and maybe it has, I don't know, 10 grams of protein, we know that that's not enough to support our overall goals in muscle health. So, we'll add in an essential amino acid scoop, 1 to 3 depending— I use BodyHealth, but depending on which brand you use, this is how we do it. And so that 10 gram of protein from fish now registers to the body as a 30 gram meal or a 50 gram meal, which as you age, it becomes more important, especially if your caloric intake is low. Now, your boys are highly anabolic. And essentially, what you're doing is you're keeping them highly anabolic because you are providing them— they're probably extremely active. So, you're providing these basic building blocks to be able to repair and rebuild in the way necessary.

Ben Greenfield: Plus, it means there's more steak left over for me because I eat everything in the freezer. So, I'm like, "Here, take aminos." So, speaking of the pulsing. Ben Greenfield: Maybe this is old school and I'm sure you've addressed it, but I think there's this prevailing theory that, "Oh, you can only absorb 20 grams at a time." So, you got to never do more than 20 grams of protein. Some people say 30, hence there's lots of recommendations to pulse it throughout the day. With those recommendations, is it really an absorption issue or is it just an issue with getting multiple anabolic surges throughout today?

Well, the data would support that you can absorb all of it, whether it's 30 to 50. There's a belief that you max out the muscle effect at around 50. Okay, but the minimum— 30 grams of protein is the minimum required to stimulate muscle for a more mature person. There's really two groups. There's the 18 and younger, or the people that are still growing, maybe it's in the mid-20s, and then there's 40-plus. And those individuals, we have to really think about at one time, how do we optimally stimulate muscle if body composition is what we're after, if or that person is not eating a higher protein diet. We have to become more strategic about how we do it so you can absorb all of the protein. From a muscle effect that maxes out around 50 grams. The data actually— the only data we have really and, and have well is at that first meal. And that first meal could be any time because you're coming out of an overnight fast. So the data is very supportive of that first meal being between 30 and 50. And then beyond that, it's how do we then design a diet to get all of the rest of the protein needs met. And I would argue that that last meal is also more critical. And here's what we know. There, there's a group, Arnell et al., which is a French group, and they looked at protein pulsing throughout, um, the day. And they looked at— it was the same group of individuals, and it was older, more mature women. And one meal was 50 grams of protein, and the rest was, say, subthreshold, like 10 grams.. And then, the other arm of the study, so it was a crossover design, was all subthreshold, so 10 grams of protein pulsed throughout the day. The group that had the 50-gram amount actually maintained the most muscle, the most "lean mass." And, I think that that's really important. So, if someone is going to do protein pulsing, the one thing that they absolutely have to do is to make sure that they have a 50-gram meal.

Okay, interesting. So, and that 50-gram meal could be any time, but I think you said like before bed is a pretty good time for the big protein bolus.

It could be the first meal or that last meal.

Okay, okay, cool. All right, so we got to put the protein to work. And you, of course, talk about exercise in the book. You don't have to go do Kikoro. One thing, and that's my whole background, I think you know this, Gabrielle, is exercise physiology and biomechanics. And so, I love to see some people's thoughts on muscle growth. You talk about old theory versus new understanding. What's the old versus the new?

Yeah. I think that for the longest period of time, people felt like muscle damage was the way that muscle grew, but really, it is the tension. So, it's the mechanical input or the mechanical stressor, the stimulus that is the most important. And, that's the new understanding as opposed to muscle damage being the primary driver. It really is mechanical tension.

What's that mean? For people who might not understand the difference between— because some people hear tension, they're like, "Well, yeah, I'm damaging the muscle. They're the same thing." um, how do you differentiate the two?

Well, from our standpoint, we can't differentiate it. But what I think becomes important is it really highlights the idea that a well-designed training program is incredibly important. Because people talk about progressive, uh, overload, and progressive overload is really the theory that you're always having to add more weight. And you and I both know that the fastest way to get injured is to outpace what you can possibly do. So, it really is about progressive stimulus. Progressive stimulus can happen in a number of different ways. Progressive stimulus can be adding another day, can be utilizing tempo. It can be adding more reps. Angles, apparatus.

Yeah. Right now, I'm in the middle of a 6-week Landmine training program. And, 3 days a week, I'm on the landmine for almost an hour. And, part of it is I'm in a little bit of a muscle growth phase, so I'm looking for the new stimulus. But, something like that, just like switching from machines to kettlebells or free weights to landmine, huge difference in terms of the stimuli and the growth.

And, that's exactly right. So, what you're doing is rather than just lifting heavier, you're allowing for for your tendons to catch up with your muscles. The fastest way to get injured is to just build strong muscle and then not recognize that there is a tendon aspect as well.

Yeah, yeah. By the way, you ever do much with the Landmine?

All the time.

Yeah, yeah. So, my original impression of it was you've got your lunging presses and you have your of Swiss, right? Those are the two that people are most familiar with. But, oh my gosh, goblet squats, deadlifts, single-arm deadlifts, RDLs, rows, you can do a ton with that thing. I got a book and just it was kind of funny, my son and I set the book down on the gym floor and spent an hour and a half doing every single exercise in the book and then we put a program together. But yeah, super versatile tool and pretty— if you own a barbell, pretty cheap, $40 on Amazon, you've got a landmine.

And what you're talking about now is adding in rotational movement and adding in things above and beyond what people would traditionally think about. So, in Playbook, I designed— there's the Foundation 5. It's prehab. So, there's movements that people can do that add in rotation because it's not just about building strength or focusing on hypertrophy. There is a rotational aspect. There's a balance aspect. There's a stability aspect, all of which is really critical from the standpoint of, you know, what we're looking for is longevity. We're looking for being able to be physically capable and do all the stuff that we love for a really long period of time. It's not just about going hard or going home. And so, what you're saying is really beginning to think about the body in motion as to how it is designed to be. And I think that that's ultimately what it is that we are all hoping for.

Yeah. Now, what do you do for cardio?

Now, this is interesting. There is really two camps. There's this idea of long, slow, steady state, which is zone 2, can totally be valuable. As a mom of two little children, I do more high-intensity interval training.

Oh, come on. You don't have the double jogging stroller and the double bike trailer?

Frankly, no, because I have all I don't have time for that. But, what I do do is I add in VILPA. So, it's vigorous intermittent physical activity and that is in multiple times a day. And actually, you were the first person that I heard talking about exercise snacks. Yeah. Essentially, it's the exercise snack component which is very valuable. And then, also, there's the high-intensity interval training which is focused. It can be 20 minutes where— and I put in multiple protocols as to how to do this. It's about 85% your VO2 max. We are not talking about 100% effort, which is very difficult to get to mentally. And also, you know, that might be a 4-minute workout. That's, that's a sprint interval training. Zone 2 is also important. You know, what we're talking about is why would we do Zone 2 versus high-intensity interval training, or are we doing both? And ideally, you're doing both. The way that I think about it is there's the muscle standpoint of building muscle mass, strength, hypertrophy. The mass piece is important because it's your amino acid reservoir. It's the site for your metabolic health, whether it's insulin resistance, insulin sensitivity. Muscle burns primarily fatty acids. So, there's the— the muscle mass itself is important. And then, there is the plumbing aspect. We talked about endothelial health. Again, we just published this paper on sexual function and muscle mass and strength. So, we use muscle to improve endothelial health and vasodilation. It's essentially the plumbing. And, that is really important for cardiovascular health, for brain health, for all the other organ systems and the way in which our body is dependent on the plumbing and also removal of waste and increasing blood flow. And improving oxygen and nutrient flow to all other tissues. And so, zone 2 cardio is great, great for mitochondrial health, but also if someone doesn't have the time for that. So, for example, for me, I rely on high-intensity interval training, which also improves my VO2 max.

Ben Greenfield: Okay, okay, got it. Alright. So, a few quick fun ones for you here. To finish up. You're traveling, you're recording this in a hotel right now, which is why your kids bust in on you. Yes, exactly. Let's say, I don't imagine you stay at that many crappy hotels, but let's say you check into the hotel with the rusty squeaky elliptical trainer and some old chipped dumbbells and you want to do some kind of a gym-free workout. What do you do when you don't have access to a gym and you're traveling?

Okay, great question. First off, if you are going to a hotel, don't go to a hotel without a gym, or don't go to a hotel without a gym in the vicinity. So, you have to plan and prepare, otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure. Number 2, if that is not possible, you are going to a remote area or you're stuck on the airplane or whatever it is, I do 2 things. I always travel with bands or blood flow restriction.

Yeah. It takes—

no space in a suitcase, even if it's one band, you better believe I'm traveling with it. Yeah. Body weight, I do 100 push-ups a day. If for me, if for example, I know that I'm not— like yesterday, I was exhausted. What did I do? I ended up doing push-ups. And you should always do— and you think about it, you plan it out. So, for me, I do 100 push-ups a day. You can do 100 push-ups, 100 squats, 100 burpees, Pick 100, pick 100 of your favorite things, pick 3 exercises. And the other part that I will say is you're training smart and intensely. So, when things don't go as planned, you're not dependent on that training session.

Yeah, I love that. The only thing that's different between us because I'm the same way, 2 pounds or less, right? Elastic band that's thick enough that you can't press it overhead more than 10 times, blood flow restriction bands, And then, the last one for me is just a cheapo doorframe suspension strap so you can get some of the pulling, rhomboids, scapular retraction, some of the stuff that's harder to get with push-ups. And, that's it. And then, like you, people often look at my hands like, "Why are your hands beat up? Why are your fingernails chipped and your knuckles are all worn out?" I'm the same way. I hit 100, 250 push-ups a day. So, my hands are always down on the gravel, fist on the concrete. And yeah, that's a free and easy one. Okay. So, next question, you are on a road trip. For some reason, you rushed out super fast and you don't have your fancy upgraded pemmican sticks or whatever in your car and you stop at the convenience store and you want to get some kind of protein-forward snack. You walk into the average 7-Eleven, what are you going to grab?

Hard-boiled eggs, yogurt, and most people have— most places have a protein shake, also beef jerky. And quite frankly, I keep beef jerky packed in my bag. I keep my stuff packed. So again, I'm planning to not be in that situation, but if I am, those are my go-tos. Hard-boiled eggs, yogurt. They almost always have Greek yogurt. Always have some kind of shake or some really gross hyper-salty preservative-filled beef jerky. Again, if you had to choose between some high-carb, non-valuable, no nutrient density option versus something that's not perfect, you can't let perfection get in the way of these are the standards that you've set for yourself. You know, we're not talking about goal setting. We're setting physical standards. And those physical standards are, again, what you put into your body, how you move. And it doesn't have to be perfect. That beef jerky might not be perfect. Again, you're in the convenience store in the middle of Arkansas. It's not going to be perfect, but it falls in line with your standard. And I think that that's a good way of thinking about things because people will go, well, I'm not eating that. That is a bunch of preservatives. And so I'm just going to eat the I don't know. I don't know what that other option is.

Yeah. There's always the birthday cake-flavored Quest Bars too.

So, there you go.

Not half bad. You don't want to be on a road trip with me if I've had a couple of those though. Okay. Last one. You're stuck on a plane. Let's say it's a cross-the-pond flight, 8 hours, 9 hours, whatever. Top moves to stay fit or at least stay somewhat healthy on a plane.

So, I bring a heavy resistance band because I plan for for it. I just recently went to Australia. Here's what I brought on the plane. I brought a thick band to put around my knees for, um, they're like clamshells, or you can do— it's almost like a kickback, like while you're sitting in the chair. Oh yeah, and then also standing up. Yeah, I have no shame. It's okay. Yeah, I do it in, in the aisle.

These— oh, these are little Powerdot devices. These are kind of cool too.

Oh, it's that.

Yeah. They're surprisingly strong for an electrical muscle device. I think Therabody makes those. Those are pretty good too just for a little bit of quad stimuli or put them on your arms on the plane.

Yeah. So, what I've used is I've used Firefly. I've put them on my quads and my calves. Okay. So, the exercise component is the really thick bands, as well as a thin band to do any kind of, um, like a row. Again, it was 13 hours, and you don't feel good. I personally don't feel good sitting in one small confined space to do it. And then, um, I'm a smaller person, so I can do push-ups in the aisle, and it doesn't matter. You can look at me crazy. Again, it doesn't faze me. That is one— is one way to do it. And then also I bring small compression sleeves that actually inflate and deflate.

Oh, those are awesome. Yeah, I have those. Those are incredible. That's a game changer for a long flight. We did Australia last June. So long. Yeah, you got to keep moving. Okay. So, BenGreenfieldLife.com/ForeverStrong. This is the playbook. Oh, this is the advanced reader's edition.

So, that is the hard copy. The real book is bigger glossy pages, has updates.

I always get the crappy review version, folks. So, BenGreenfieldLife.com/ForeverStrong. I will link there also not only to everything we talked about but my original podcast with Gabrielle where we also talked more about protein, muscle, muscle-centric medicine, and a whole lot more. Gabrielle, you're amazing as usual. Thanks for doing this.

I really appreciate your flexibility even with crazy kids running in and out. So, I really appreciate you.

That's right. Alright. Well, Merry Christmas. Everybody get the book. Pick out your crucible for the new year. I want to hear what it is. Leave a comment at BenGreenfieldLife.com/ForeverStrong. I read them all. Have an incredible week.

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