Is There One Perfect Diet For All Humankind, Keto vs. Plant-Based, Hunger & Carb Cravings Pro Tips & More With Matt & Wade, Authors Of The Ultimate Nutrition Bible.

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast, a lot of people get into a diet and they try to restrict their way to health, and they mistake the getting the crap out of their diet in the early stages of restriction as the benefit itself. But ultimately, every diet has a hole, and those holes are gonna become apparent. So when people switch from one diet to another, what happens is they mistake the new diet as the fix. Really, the new diet had things that the old diet was missing, and then the fix is where they get the benefit.

Fitness, Nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this.

Look at that, folks. That is called the nutrition bible, the ultimate nutrition bible. I'm holding it up right now on the camera. If you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/nutritionbiblepodcast, you'll be able to see it. As a guy who likes to write big books myself because I'm not as good as— who's it, Mark Twain, who said, "If I had more time, this letter would have been shorter." I just can't push pause on books and neither can my guests on today's show. Matt Gallant and Wade Lightheart wrote this beast. I'm going to drop it and try to break my feet or my desk. And if you've been a fan of the podcast for any time, you might be familiar with Matt and Wade. Not only are they the well-known figureheads behind the company Bioptimizers, which makes a lot of stuff I talk about on a regular basis like Magnesium Breakthrough and my favorite, Gluten Guardian, which lets me actually have bread and pasta at restaurants. But these guys also have taken a deep dive into the science of nutrition and strength conditioning and exercise. I mean, Matt is a strength conditioning coach. He's got years of formulating supplements and experience in that industry. He's a ketogenic diet enthusiast. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's built over 14 companies. Wade actually happens to, in addition to being just as prolific a businessman as Matt, a bodybuilder, 3-time national bodybuilding champion. He competed in IFBB Mr. Universe. The INBA Natural Olympics. And at the age of 50, he came out of retirement to win the open men's and grandmasters category in bodybuilding. And happens to eat, I believe, I can catch up with you on this as well later on, Wade, more of a plant-based approach. And these guys joined me for a podcast on probiotic enemas and digestive enzymes. And we did another one on fixing metabolic mistakes and the ketogenic diet. They helped me pen a couple of super popular articles. At Ben Greenfield Life about nootropics as they're also involved with this company Nootopia, which you hear me talk about as, as like a really great nootropics company. So, they're obviously all over the map and we're incredibly blessed to be able to get them on the show today. So, fellas, welcome.

Great to be here.

Thanks for having us, Ben. And we have to give a shout-out to Boundless, your book. I remember when that came out, kind of set the standard for voluminous writing. So we're obviously the same camp, right? I share the same challenge that you identified. Like, how do we summarize that? And that started out as 1,100 pages, I think, wasn't it, Matt?

Yeah. The first draft was 1,100. Actually, fun fact, Ben, our publishers or literary agents used your book as a reference to negotiate our book deal with Hay House because they say, well, hey, Boundless was successful, so. This will work as well.

You know what, that you're, you're the third person who's, who's told me that they take the BookScan numbers and they pull it to look for, is there any successful book that anybody would actually want to read and take on an airplane that weighs 2 pounds? It's, you know, 600+ pages. And Boundless did fall into that category. I think it was, well, like 1,800 pages before I, you know, kissed goodbye to all my babies and edited it up a little bit, but I don't think I've told you this, but behind the scenes, I'm working on Boundless 2.0. So, I'm back in the throes of writing for 2 to 3 hours a day and researching and doing all the updates. As you guys know, this industry moves lightning fast as far as health research, nutrition research, biohacking technologies, and all the things that people are interested in to the extent to where Boundless is what, 3.5 years old and already I feel like it's getting a little bit outdated and needs a refresher.

Yes. One thing is Wade and I've talked about is how many years can we go by before we refresh it and write the next version.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, the last time we talked, Wade, you were bodybuilding on a plant-based diet. Matt, you were a little bit more involved in the keto diet. And since really based on the title of your book, we're going to be talking a lot about diet today. Catch me up on this. Like, where are you guys at as far as your own personal nutritional practices? Go ahead, Wade.

Yeah. So one of the things that I always find challenging is becoming too identified with any single diet strategy. And so I haven't eaten any flesh since 2021.

Oh, you make it so gross when you say it like that. Eating any flesh.

Yeah.

So cannibalistic.

So You know, I've had eggs occasionally, I'll have ice cream occasionally, and I'll have cheese occasionally, usually on my spike days, right? Like, it's like, okay, I'm, or I'm at a social occasion. So I'm not like a vigilante vegan. I don't buy into the ethical story about killing 'cause plants are alive and communicate and stuff. So I kind of strip away all of the ethical or moral grandstanding that people tend to do on diets. I'm seeing kind of that happening also right now in the carnivore space. There's like a, creating sort of this polarity between a carnivore versus a vegan. One of my favorite, one of my favorite influences is Jordan Peterson, and him and his daughter saved their lives because of a genetic condition by going on a complete carnivore diet. So I just say, oh, you're evil and bad because you've, you know, avoided yourself. That, that makes no sense to me. And, and why I'm saying that is because a plant-based diet I've developed largely in part to address some genetic conditions, as well as to explore what could be done on a performance side on a plant-based diet, which most people said couldn't be done. And so I realized that there was a gap between what people, what might be common versus what might be possible. And so I got interested in it and it worked for me. And I, you know, one of the interesting points is that if I wasn't in business with Matt and had so many discussions for so many years, there were major holes in my plant-based strategy that the ketogenic perspective helped me fill so that I could hit my performance and health goals. So what I, what the whole design of the book was designed is to let's, let's strip past just dietary, like cult dynamics. And let's get into what is your goals, how do you best achieve them, and how do you enhance your optimal genetics and offset your suboptimal genetics. And so for me, that turns out to be a plant-based diet. For Matt, that turns out to be a ketogenic diet.

And you brought up genetics a couple of times there, and you specifically, the first time you brought it up, said that one of the things that drove you towards more of a plant-based approach was to manage genetic predispositions. What do you mean by that?

Yeah. If you look at my genes, I've got a couple of interesting challenges. One is, um, I have suboptimal genetics for cardiovascular health. Two, I have suboptimal genetics for feeling full. In other words, left to my own design, I'll overeat. The other thing is, is I have, uh, suboptimal genetics for blood sugar regulation. So if I followed a traditional bodybuilding diet, which I used to do before I went plant-based, I can stay lean, I can stay fit, I can stay on a high-performance side. I had a lot of success in that, at that type of diet. And I would likely have some sort of cardiac event, cardiovascular event when I'm, you know, in my late 70s, early 80s, you know, stroke, heart disease, something like that. So I was like, okay, well, the cardiovascular outcomes are on a plant-based diet are really good. The problem is it's not so good on a blood sugar level. So I had to adapt the bodybuilding mentality, upping my protein content, which can be an issue on plant-based diets, improve my digestive capabilities so I can get more amino acids out of the protein I am consuming, which is generally less than someone who is con— uh, control or eating animal products. I had to supplement with essential fatty acids that I wasn't getting, uh, sufficient levels in my diet. And I used fiber as a way to offset my tendency to eat too much because I have a delay in my fullness feeling. And by doing that, I've been able to keep my blood sugar at a level that when you do like a HOMO-IR test, it looks like I'm on a ketogenic diet. I don't have food cravings even on calorie restriction, and I have a spike day every, every week where I get to eat all the fun foods without any guilt and association. Now, do I know if I'm going to offset that cardio cardiovascular risk? The data says that I'm in a good place right now. I don't know what's gonna happen when I'm 80, so I'm betting on that as I opened up a bet when Dave Asprey attacked my plant-based diet and made all these crazy accusations about phytic acid and I was gonna have kidney stones. And the reality was, is all of the things that he said, I actually have data to support that. I have none of the things that he was stating that was problems I was going to inquire from that diet.

Okay. So, so the spikes day, by the way, some people say that and refer to it as like a carb refeed day. Others is more like a, a growth hormone stimming day. For you, what do you mean when you say spikes day?

Yeah. We, when we talk about this in the book and all kudos to Scott Abel, my former bodybuilding coach who created what he called the cycle diet. And the concept behind the cycle diet is that you eat below your calorie maintenance levels for about 6 days a week. And ideally you want, for a male, you'd want between a 500 minimum and ideally about a 1,000 calorie deficit, part from diet, half from diet, half from exercise deficit. You run that from 6 day for 6 days, and then on, on, on the spike day, you kind of just load up on the calories, refill your glycogen stores. The hormones inside your body aren't able to adapt to start putting on body fat. You'll get some water retention and you'll, your weight will shoot up. But what the benefit is, it keeps your body from lowering its metabolic rate from extensive dieting. And that allows you, so if I go through that cycle, and by the way, in order to set that up, you need probably at least 12 to 16 weeks of dieting prematurely so that you get your body into a, a continuous deficit state for an extended time where you wouldn't have spike days. Get your body fat into a reasonable level. And then it's going to work better. And then what will happen, you'll spike up, you'll gain maybe anywhere between, for myself, that's around 185 pounds. I'll gain about 10 pounds on that one day. It's just intestinal bulk, water retention and stuff. And by the end of the week, I'll be down a pound to a pound and a half of body fat because I'm keeping my metabolism high while I'm doing that. So that's what you're offsetting. It's, it's really well done in his book, The Cycle Diet, for people who want to get into the nuances. And it also fits within, we've adapted it for different styles of diet in the book.

Yeah, it sounds like a little bit of a variant of like keto cycling or carb cycling or something like that. Hey, hey Matt, when Wade talks about having the genetic predisposition to not feeling full enough, have you ever just recommended Ozempic to him?

Well, I've experimented quite a bit with terzepatide, Ozempic. We've chatted about it.

And what's your take?

I think, you know, one of the, my favorite parts of the book, and you know, if I could just disseminate one key concept into the world, especially on the weight loss side, is the realization that the reason people have failed is because of genetics. And not in the same context you've heard before. The context we're referring to is if you diet too hard, too fast, the starvation survival mechanisms kick in. Whether it's hunger driven by ghrelin or NPY in the brain, leptin decreasing, metabolism decreasing, loss of lean body mass, new fat cells being developed, which is actually something a lot of people don't know. Like, if you get really lean, one of the defense mechanisms is actually creating new fat cells. So before we thought, well, your body's going to create new fat cells once you're— so existing ones are overfilled and then just creates new ones. Well, it just so happens your body will create new ones again so that it's sending more signals to your brain, to your body, start eating again and putting on weight. So when we look at Ozempic, any GLP-1 agonist from that lens, what it's doing, it's helping people override that survival mechanism. And obviously the results are incredibly impressive. So I think, and I've been a proponent of that, Wade can attest, I've been saying this for many years, that I think the endgame solution for weight loss is probably some sort of gene therapy. I mean, right now you can inject GLP-1 agonists and you got to keep reinjecting every week. But ideally it'd be, you know, go in, get a shot once every year, 2 years, or a permanent upgrade where you're eating because you should, not because you're hungry or being compelled by these survival mechanisms.

There is this dopaminergic response to food that's like part of the joy of being a human, you know, just like going out of the steakhouse and like, you know, ordering some great things and having a fantastic meal. And part of me wonders, you know, if we get into gene therapy that downregulates that response, if you're going to all of a sudden create kind of, you know, not that Not that enjoyment of food is doing us any favors in the obesity department with full-time access to hyperpalatable foods, but I sometimes wonder, it's like, man, you are supposed to sit down and just enjoy a meal every once in a while and get that neurotransmitter response to it, right?

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. I think if you're eating hyperpalatable foods like your favorite foods, there's a massive dopamine response, massive serotonin response if you're eating a lot of carbohydrates. If you're eating fat and sugar together, you will, your brain will light up as if you're doing heroin, which I've watched Wade eat a Sidecar Donut in LA. It was, it was pretty, pretty much a heroin-like response. So yeah, there's a massive neurochemical response to food. And, and I know people that consider themselves food addicts or have food issues, and for them, that's a real problem, right? Like, that's what's driving a lot of that unhealthy behavior with food is the pursuit of those neurochemicals. So anyways, but yeah, I think people, even when you're on it, of course you're not going to gorge the way you normally would. You still enjoy food.

Yeah. So, so it's not black or white, all or nothing. And in terms of the food enjoyment piece, that's helpful to know. What were you going to say, Wade?

Yeah. So I wanted to circle back to just, you know, why not use Ozempic? And so, one of the constraints that I've put onto my whole process is, you know, when I'm competing in contests, these are all drug-tested contests and stuff like that. So I can't use TRT, I can't use any of the, uh, enhancements that could distort the results and give me a competitive advantage against my competitors. Now, that's not to say I'm against all those things, or I think people should, should or shouldn't do it. That's an individual choice. And I'm all about people make the freedom of choice. However, when I'm communicating to the audience, I'm communicating from an experiential base as saying, hey, this is an unaltered hormonal profile because, you know, I train at Gold's Gym in Venice, so I can get to the world championships in bodybuilding. I can't win the, the champions in bodybuilding on a natural level, but I can walk down to the gym here in Gold's Gym and I can probably on any given moment find 30 to 40 guys that could walk into the contest and win the Natural Bodybuilding Championships, but they're enhanced. And so what I feel is disingenuous to the listeners is that, or people that are buying into stuff, is there— if, if I'm using, uh, hormonal augmentation, it's very hard to separate the hormonal augmentation or whatever chemicals I'm using from the strategy itself, because I don't know how much is corrupting that data. If I was doing exactly the same thing I am now, and I was on TRT, and let's say I was on Ozempic, and let's say I was stacking a few, you know, anabolic peptides into the program, I would probably be somewhere between 8 and 15 pounds heavier on a competition stage., and it'd probably be a couple of percentage lower. That takes me from an also-ran at the world-class level to competing for the championship title. That's the difference between those two things. So I, I, when I talk about these things and when I go down that route, I'm trying to kick that can as far down the road. For example, on TRT, when I go down that route, I would be clear that I would announce that. And I, I believe that's important as an advocate that we're transparent. With our listeners so they know all of the things that are maybe influencing our result because some people are, you know, not comfortable sharing all the things that they might be doing that's influencing a result.

Now, on page 99 of the book, you guys start an entire chapter devoted to managing cravings. You have like the Japanese pre-meal prayer and, you know, protein and fiber and ginger and all sorts of stuff. But if I were going out to eat with you guys, let's say tonight for dinner, and you wanted to use some kind of hunger management tactic, what would be the top of the totem pole for you guys right now?

Two things, protein and fiber. So if you are more on an animal protein side, you, you probably want to have some protein. If you're on more on a vegetarian fi— side, protein. And if you, and if you're not supplementing with a protein per se. And I think for most plant-based folks, you probably should be. You probably don't have enough pool of protein to extract the amino acids out. But the killer is fiber. I mean, I am the fiber king according to Matt. I shoot for somewhere around 85 grams of fiber a day, about 3 times what the average person is getting in in America. There's a lot of data supporting that. The 4 different types of fibers for a reduction of all-cause mortality, anywhere from 12 to 35%.

Wait, the 4, 4, you said 4 types of fiber. Is that beyond just soluble and insoluble?

Well, that's insoluble is a whole other level. So you got legumes, you got fruits, you got vegetable fibers, So to, you know, I just did a couple of articles on those things specifically on my site to, to, to, you know, illustrate. And then you have cereal fibers is, is the other one. And there's a meta-analysis of 14 studies, for example, and out of the, out of those studies, it was over, I think, 1,400,000 people. It was a 12 to 35%. Reduction of all causes mortality. And I kind of outline how much fiber, but from a satiety factor, that's a longevity factor. From a satiety factor, I mean, fiber's great. I also believe, and we have evidence from her lab in Bosnia, that it's supportive. Different types of fiber are more supportive for a diverse microbiome. So I'm working on creating a working theory of what fibers could be used in conjunction with repopulation of microbiome. Because ultimately the goal is, as you get healthier, I think you should have an, a, a far greater array of choices than less. And you know, a lot of people get into a diet and they try to restrict their way to health and they mistake the getting the crap outta their diet in the early stages of restriction as the benefit itself, but ultimately every diet has a hole, like holes in it, and those holes are going to become apparent. So when people switch from one diet to another, what happens is, is they mistake the new diet as the fix. Really, the new diet had things that the old diet was missing, and then the fix is where they get the benefit. And I'm dietary agnostic. So, uh, I know I kind of diverted there, but I just wanted to expand on the fiber piece a little bit.

Yeah. You're also like a horse or a cow. Geez, 85 grams of fiber. That's nuts. Matt, I'm curious what your strategy would be. And I also, if you care to tack on after you reply, I'm curious about this secret Batman lab in Bosnia that Wade referred to.

Sure. Well, first of all, I can confirm that when Wade goes to Whole Foods and he puts the salad on scale, it's 3 to 4 pounds.

Man. Yeah. That's an expensive salad at Whole Foods.

He's the king of fiber. What do you say?

You know, I don't know why, you know, Jeff hasn't given me a Bentley or something as a customer of his or something.

Seriously.

You know, we're hoping.

Yeah. From the hunger side, I think the number one thing is getting enough sleep, which is not a tactical thing on the day of, but the day before. And if you look at the research on cravings, also blood sugar response. If you have a bad night's sleep, it's night and day. And I've certainly noticed that myself. I have bad sleep. I'll just be craving more food and tend to eat more. There's, in terms of a drink you can have throughout the day that actually helps, decaf coffee is the best. So that's a great solution if you want to kind of drink something all day. And I like putting salt. So decaf coffee and salt, it actually tastes almost like a soup. It's more savory. And I'm a big fan of that. During the meal, I remember being on a plane ride a few years ago, and the guy next to me told me he lost over 200 pounds. And he told me a couple of things that I had never researched, but then as I was writing this chapter, I dove into it and ended up being true. One of them was not drinking carbonated drinks, which before I used to do a lot. I used to drink carbonated drinks and the data shows that it can increase hunger. So that's one thing that's interesting.

Can increase— that's kind of paradoxical because a lot of people say the bubbles fill you up.

Exactly. So again, the references in the chapter. And the other one, which I do, is like smaller plates. They told me about smaller, smaller plates. And then if you look at the data, Chinese food buffets and all these restaurant experiments that have been done, people will eat in proportion to the plate size. So if I'm having, you know, a little bit of Halo Top ice cream at night, I'll use a small cup and a small spoon. And I know it sounds trivial, but it makes a difference. I really feel it does.

Ben Greenfield: Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Well, I'm cracking up right now. You see me smiling in the video. My family laughs at me because my wife and my sons who are both significantly smaller than me grab these big dinner plates for dinner. And I have 2 plates and I'll usually just go into the dishwasher and wash them at dinner because there's only 2 of them in the house. So, these teeny tiny minuscule appetizer plates, and that's what I put dinner on. And then my ice cream bowl, they laugh at this too. My ice cream bowl is like a little larger than a shot glass and it's a total appetite control strategy for me. And yeah, I even like, I go back for seconds regardless, but if I go back for seconds after a tiny plate and a shot-sized glass of ice cream, I'm still eating fewer calories than the big version. It just sounds like a silly tactic, but it works. It also messes up all the food on your plate, but I think it's worth it.

Yeah. Yeah. As far as our lab, so in 2019, I went to visit our CTO who lives in Bosnia, in Sarajevo. And as I was touring the university that he's a professor at, there was a whole biology department that I didn't know existed. Met the head of the biology department. She's a part-time professor there. And then we created a partnership where we supply them with equipment the university would never buy. So we've supplied them with well over a million dollars worth of equipment. Equipment so far. And we get brilliant either master's students, PhD students, or PhDs doing nonstop experiments. So I like, I meet with them every Tuesday morning, met with them this morning. Right now, just to give you a kind of a, an example, we're rebuilding Magnesium Breakthrough. So we just ran a whole battery of experiments on red blood cell absorption and how much the water that each magnesium Draws in. So we're basically using all that data to build a better version. We did enzyme experiments 'cause we're always working on new versions, better versions for our enzymes. We did a whole battery of P3OM experiments, probiotic experiments, including Seed. So we're, we're not just testing our stuff, but we test other people's. And we're using basically laboratory split testing where we'll test combinations in a different array of experiments. To create the most powerful products in every product class that we're in.

Ben Greenfield: Oh, that's incredible. Have you guys seen the Mass Spec guy on Instagram? He's kind of catching on. Like, he does mass spec analysis of a whole bunch of popular stuff. Like, what do you do? Prime Energy Drink recently is one that I saw. He did some other herbal, you know, Ayurvedic supplement. I actually, I'm not going to say which supplements I sent him, but I took about 5 that my listeners ask me about all the time. And I'm shipping him a few key formulations. He's going to test it. And, we're going to do a podcast and using mass spec analysis to see if what's in your product is actually in it. But, you guys are just kind of running that on a weekly basis, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. We have a HPLC machine and that was about half a mil. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. They're not inexpensive. Matt, I didn't get a chance to give you the opportunity to fill me in on what your diet looks like because last time we talked, It was pretty hardcore keto. And obviously, I don't think you're ignorant of the fact that it seems that the keto diet has been a little bit more vilified lately as far as the potential impact of long-term carbohydrate depletion on endocrine or thyroid function or glycolytic capacity in athletes, et cetera. So, I wonder where are you at right now with the keto diet?

Yeah. Just to bring up the listeners that didn't listen to that podcast up Really quickly started first ketogenic diet when I was 15. Came home from school one day, my uncle said I was fat, pissed me off. Decided to start running, do an Atkins diet, went from like 190 to 147 in 6 months, and then got into bodybuilding and then discovered the anabolic diet from Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale, which was a cyclical ketogenic diet. Basically, you would carb refeed. You know, a couple days a week. And that worked. Um, looking back, I was making a ton of mistakes, but I went from like 147 to 235. 3 years, I was training 12 times a week. Um, definitely added some body fat, but it was a ton of lean muscle mass as well. And I would say right now, yeah, I'm really focusing on rebuilding my nutritional strategy in a completely new way. And not even Wade's heard this, by the way. So a lot of us influenced by the book and the methodologies in the book. So Wade referenced Nutrigenomics. A couple of big ones for me is one, I have bad genes for saturated fats. And being on a ketogenic diet, that's a big worry. So now what I'm doing is shifting my cuts far leaner cuts, replacing the fat with olive oil. So I'm, I'm consuming olive oil pretty much daily. I'm looking at increasing fiber intake. 'Cause the one thing I haven't been able to optimize in my biomarkers is my lipids. And I think I wasn't aware of the saturated fat genetic issue, and I was probably over-consuming saturated fats, under-consuming fiber. So now I'm looking at my diet. I'm thinking, well, Well, what's the optimal quantity of all these critical nutrients from a weekly perspective? You know, if you look at your diet, you got calories, so you gotta optimize your calories based on your goals. You got macronutrients, which carbs, fiber, fats, protein, and then you got nutrients. So I'm trying to optimize my nutrient, my micronutrient intake. Got bad genetics for zinc, bad genetics for selenium. So that means I need to intake more of those. And yeah, I'm just looking at my diet from a nutrient perspective. Like, 'cause, you know, calories and macros are pretty dialed in, but can I switch my fats to better fats? We're doing a ton of fat research in our lab. So we've been doing, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of experiments on algae oil, krill oil. Trying to break them down into fatty acids, you know, what are good fatty acids, what are bad fatty acids, and, you know, trying to optimize kind of on that level. So, yeah, that's where I'm at.

That's interesting. You know, I've kind of intuitively taken a similar direction in terms of my own approach to ketosis. I still eat what a lot of people would probably classify as a low-carbohydrate diet, but pretty much every night, I'm eating 200 to 300 grams of carbohydrates while restricting most of the rest of the day. And, like you, primarily based on concerns about PLAC scan and calcium scan scores along with some of the genetics components because I'm hardwired similarly in terms of the inflammatory response to saturated fats have shifted towards fatty fish, monounsaturated fats, a more Mediterranean approach, less butter, less lard. Unfortunately, less saving the fatty caps of the ribeye and the pork chop for just me and a few things that I enjoyed for a long time. But, it is interesting. I think I've talked to many other people who have adopted what I would say is a more Mediterranean fat-based approach to a ketogenic diet with some amount of cycling thrown in for a lot of the reasons that you've just stated. So, there's something that I think is important for people. It's probably a quick question, But when you talk about nutrigenomics, there's obviously a lot of different ways to test. What do you guys prefer as far as the type of test to get?

We're actually working on our own tests. So obviously if you get a genetic test, a 23andMe or any sort of test, you get the raw data. So what a lot of companies are doing is they'll pick certain snippets, certain variants, and then essentially create an insight report. So what we're working on is one that's pretty much hyper-focused on nutrition supplements so that we can, you know, give people really powerful insights. And I feel like it's one of the greatest investments anyone can make in their health. I mean, what's the value for me knowing that I shouldn't overconsume saturated fats? Maybe that's adding an extra decade, 2 or 3 to my life. You know, what's the value of the insights for Wade to know that he's also predisposed to cardiovascular problems? It's massive, right? We're making corrective actions years and decades before alarm bells are ringing. And I think for everyone listening, I would assume everybody listening is focused on health, lifespan, healthspan. So the value of it is massive.

And then that, that, that'll be, uh, that'll be at-home salivary.

Yeah, yeah, at-home salivary. And then we've also built an app. So our goal is to feed your data into our nutrition app that's going to look at it and then make personalized recommendations based on your goals. We're trying to make it as simple and easy as possible to have a truly personalized nutritional experience.

I like that. Well, there will be a Because, you know, I still, right now I'm coaching 10 people on diet and fitness. Will there be a trainer feature? Like, could I actually use that with my clients?

That's the goal.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah. The other, the other quick question I had for you guys, just to make sure I'm cleaning up things as we go here, is you, you both mentioned some of your micronutrient and calorie tracking. I'm aware of Cronometer is one good tool for that. What do you guys prefer to use for that?

In terms of tracking my calories? Yeah. Yeah, no, I use our app. So we built an app that can do that, Ultimate Nutrition app.

Oh, and that's like available? Yeah. I didn't even know you guys are holding— I thought I read your book thoroughly. I must have missed that part.

Yeah, it's out. Again, we're a bunch of recipes. We support a bunch of nutritional diet styles. We've got barcode or you can scan barcodes, ton of cool features and yeah, just download and use it.

And on my side, Ben, because left to my own devices, I just, I just will go off the rails. And so I just eat the same thing every day, all week long. So I keep that calorie deficit that I was sharing with you. And so I keep that calorie deficit about 1,000 a day. And then I have my spike day where I can just go, you you know, let my inner, you know, lizard man just go to the buffet and go wild. I love that. And then every year on holidays, I take a holiday in December and I take several weeks off where I just eat whatever I want. And then I try to put the binders on and the binders never come on fast enough. You know, I'll gain, I can gain weight so easily. Like, like I could just become a fat doughboy and like time. And so I, as a reminder every year, the Christmas holidays, 'cause I go back to my cultural roots and my, we're from the fattest, unhealthiest province in Canada. And Christmas is a bonanza of just everything that you would never put on any kind of diet regimen at all. And I go to it and I don't disappoint all my relatives and, you know, it's bad enough that I'm a vegetarian. That's weird enough. And I just go crazy. And then, you know, it's, I spend the next 6 weeks after Christmas to get myself back to my, my normal weight. And then I celebrate that for 6 months and I go on a vacation maybe in the summer and I do something for a couple of weeks and go off again. And so I, I know that those little cycles and those little, those little nutrition breaks on the holidays allow me to sample foods that I wouldn't get access to. Like, you know, I went to Turkey. A couple years ago, and I mean, I was just overwhelmed with the plethora of cool foods there. I went to Dubai. I found a whole bunch of foods over there. So I like those, those food tours where I get exposed to things that are outside of my range. Because before I was so restrictive, I would just never, I would just never deviate from my diet. And then I was a real party pooper, uh, you know, that side. So I try to make, I try to limit the amount of fun I have in my diet to to calculated times.

I deviate all the time when I travel. And the only trick I have for that is I rarely Uber or take public transport or taxi when I travel. I walk. I average about 25,000 steps a day when I'm traveling. Well, people will be like, "Hey, where's the event?" It's 3 miles down the road. I say, "I'll be there in 50 minutes." And I just brought my backpack and walk. And because I'm such a foodie and like to try a wide variety of foods, especially when I travel, I think just that simple step alone, I'll come back from a vacation or a workstation eating 4,000 calories a day and I've often lost 4 or 5 pounds.

This is interesting for anyone who wants a done-for-you complete biohacked home. I am selling my entire tricked-out house located on 8.5 acres of forested land in Spokane, Washington. It includes a guest house, pool house, barn, whole setup for garden, goats, chickens, herbs, fire pit, along with a ton of biohacking goodies. The air, the light, the water, the electricity is all completely tricked out for optimized human biology, the highest quality air filtration systems, natural lighting friendly to circadian rhythms, low EMF, dirty electricity filters, EMF-blocking equipment throughout, built to be off-grid when necessary with buried propane and solar grid, toxin-free and low VOC construction materials, the most advanced water filtration systems one can find, a massive vegetable garden, greenhouse, herb garden, outdoor fire pit, goat and chicken grazing pasture and barn all in a beautiful forest that's about 25 minutes from the airport and 20 minutes from downtown. This can all be yours if you're looking for a place to get away in a safe natural area and you're looking for the best of the best biohacks done for you. Here's where you can go to check it out and to fill out a form with your interest, biohackedspokanehome.com. That's biohackedspokanehome.com. Check it out.

Yeah, it happened to me last year. I brought my family on a cruise and I lost weight. I was in Europe 3 weeks and there was just a walking, a lot of walking. So, yeah, it's a great shot.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got to ask you guys because I think people would get upset if I didn't since I get asked this all the time. Because there are a lot of people still championing the Seiko message. Calories in, calories out. What's your guys' take on that?

We're ready for this one, man. Um, yeah, I think we've settled the debate, right? So just to give everybody kind of the landscape, there's two camps. One camp that says calories in, calories out is a law of thermodynamics no one can escape. And there's another camp that's saying, well, there's all these variables. You know, hormones, leptin, et cetera, et cetera. And the reality is they're both right. And you know, when we look at, let's just take a look at calories in, I think it's pretty simple, right? You ingest calories, whether it's carbs, proteins, fats, fiber, your body has to deal with it. You know, I think the two key points to keep in mind is that when you're consuming protein, your body has to break down about 25 to 30%.— of the calories consumed to just metabolize that protein, break it down into amino acids, which is awesome. So, your net calories are lower if you consume a lot of protein. That's a really important point. And that's what most pro bodybuilders do. As they're getting closer and closer to the show, their percentage of protein just gets higher and higher and higher. And that's true in a ketogenic diet or on a carb-based diet. And then with fiber, you know, Wade being the Fiber King knows this very well, you only absorb about half the calories. So in terms of being satiated and, you know, not over-consuming food, it's a great strategy. But I think where it gets a lot more interesting and complex is looking at calories out. And probably the number one variable is anabolism. And, and I know this because I know some bodybuilders that have done some crazy experiments where they did a DEXA scan, they doubled their calorie intake. So they're trying to eat 7,000, 8,000 calories a day, like they're eating to their biological limit, you know, and they lost body fat on a DEXA scan after 10 days, despite gaining 15, 20 pounds of weight because they cranked their anabolism to the, to through the roof. Now, again, I'm not advocating doing that. They were doing a lot of things that I would personally never do, but it just showcases how powerful anabolism is. And for anybody who's had a child or has a kid, you know, that anabolic period, it's like, man, they're just consuming calories, growing like crazy. I remember doing the math with my baby girl, who's about to turn 2. If an adult was consuming the same amount of calories per pound as she was, It was over 10,000 calories a day. You know, that's how powerful anabolism— and we and I, of course, having had, uh, spent a lot of time bodybuilding, you know, you have to eat more. Your body's burning more energy. So there's a lot of natural ways you can improve anabolism. Great sleep probably being number one, you know, consuming mTOR-activating meals at least probably 4 times a day. Weightlifting, obviously a big one, a critical one. So there's all these things people can do that can probably increase their calories out 10, 20, 30%. So that's huge. And I'm not even talking about the metabolic boost of having more lean muscle mass, right? Which we know a pound of lean muscle tissue burns about 300% more calories than a pound of fat. So that helps over time. But there's other variables, you know, mitochondrial strength is a big one. Mitochondrial health, you know, Wade and I just did, um, a really hardcore brain training experiment and we did 5 days of 750 milligrams of NAD+. And the theory is day 4, day 5, you get mitochondrial fusion. Where your mitochondria are just at a new level. And I think Wade, you can attest that for about 2 months there's a boost there.

Yeah. I, I, for me, I get, I get a, my, uh, when I do NAD, I get about 4 months now and now I need less NAD. I've done about 4, I think it's maybe 5 courses. And now, like the last time I went, I only needed 1 day. Of NAD and I was good. I felt my energy levels were really high. So there is a cumulative effect. I do like those 5-day infusions, kind of like a Dr. Conover, uh, worked out.

Yeah.

And that's gonna vary from person to person, their age, their tolerance level, all that sort of stuff as well. So there is a lot of uniqueness and you want to have a medical professional. And just to finish off on Matt's side of things, in those anabolic conditions, people were taking a tremendous amount of exogenous hormones and, you know, energy partitioners and, you know, like, you know, insulin and growth hormone and peptides and testosterone and all these sort of things to totally activate massive amounts of anabolic effect. So, if you're not course-correcting for those things, same thing is I got a friend, I'll give you another example. And I had a friend that did the El Camino Trail in Europe. So he's walking approximately 20 to 25 miles every single day. And he's having these massive pasta meals and wine every night, like these huge dinners and everything. And he's losing weight. Like he gets back, he's like 25 pounds lighter after just going hog wild. And so, People go, yeah, well, I was, you know, I was all in walking in Italy and I ate pasta and wine every day and I lost weight. Yeah. Well, what was your activity level? So that's part of the calories out. And then there's, you know, all those variances.

Yeah. I'm glad you guys brought up NAD too, by the way. I agree with that idea of regular infusions or large boluses followed by keeping levels up with daily supplementation. I mean, literally I'll keep this PG rated, but on my butt right now, I have a NAD patch, one of these Ion Layer patches. And I slap a patch on 1 or 2 times a week, which gives me around 750 mgs a couple of times a week. And then, I just top that off with oral supplementation. So, probably my 2 biggest 2.0 hacks for that type of thing, just longevity, feeling good, sleep deprivation, inflammation, busted ribs from frisbee golf, whatever, is any mitochondrial peptide or mitochondrial supporting peptide and then NAD. So, right now, I'm on SS41, MOTC, and NAD. And, it's hard not to feel like a million bucks when you're optimizing those two parameters.

Yeah. Some other calories out variables, obviously, NEAT, non-exercise activity thermogenesis. And, I think I agree with Thomas DeLauer putting walking in that bucket. I think it's a great one. And obviously, I think everybody on this podcast is a big super fan of walking. And that's more of a lifestyle decision thing. And another thing that's really interesting that's gaining steam that I've been looking at for a few years is kind of microbursts throughout the day. And you get a huge boost, right? The delta, the difference between not moving and let's say sprinting up a flight of stairs or you know, doing a set of push-up after every Frisbee hole. You know, those make a big difference on calories out. And I think you're going to see a lot more research. I was hearing Rhonda Patrick talk about it with a guest recently. Those little microbursts, it's powerful.

I 100% agree. You know, these days, you know, like I mentioned, being in book writing mode, I'll sometimes go in my office and just set a pact with myself that I can't open the door for the next 7 hours. And a lot of times that means I'm skipping the gym, but I have a very light kettlebell. So, there's not a big barrier to enter. It's a 16 kg kettlebell. I'll do some light swings with. I've got 4-pound hand weights. Again, low barrier to enter, but it allows me to just stop and do something like some overhead presses and some knee touches. And then, I have one of these Carol bikes. And so, I'll sometimes work for 8 hours in my office, come out, and still have gotten a good hour of exercise in accumulated with 5 to 10-minute bursts.

Yeah. Powerful. And then, you got cold exposure, I think both from the heat loss during and then brown fat activation, which again, obviously, you got more mitochondria being turned on and get stronger. And, by the way, Ben, we'll probably have to— you're one of the few guys I'd be willing to send this prototype to. So, we built a brown fat cap. That is so potent that we have to make it milder. The early product—

it's like, like cool, like cooling technology for the head.

No, no, this is a capsule.

You take the capsule supplement.

Okay. And then even if you're exposed to air conditioning, it's enough to activate it. And then a lot of people, I think, just scorch through their blood sugar. Because they're shivering. Yeah. And yeah. So, it's really potent.

Wow.

So, I'll have to send you some prototypes.

Geez.

I know you like that kind of stuff. Man.

Well, you guys, I know we're starting to run up against time here. Wade, I thought that you were going to throw some in. Were you about to say something?

Just one brief thing is the top of the pyramid, we'd go to gut biome supplements.

Oh, we didn't finish the pyramid yet.

That's right. Yeah. Food allergies and sensitivities, and then final lifestyle. Those are the top part of the pyramid. So at the bottom, spiritual and cultural, emotional, psychological, that's the bottom of it. Then goals, calories, nutrigenomics, gut biome, that's the middle of the pyramid. And then the final stages are supplements, food out, eliminating food allergies and sensitivities, and then getting into the lifestyle that you feel you're best at.

I like that. That's a good approach. You know, as you guys might know in, in Boundless, all I did was the last chapter is 13 different popular diets like the Weston A. Price, vegan, Mediterranean, et cetera. And then, the blood, the DNA, and the gut testing results that would indicate whether or not that might be a good diet for you. But, this idea of spelling out also values, goals, lifestyle, biome, et cetera, I really like this approach. So, It's obviously all spelled out in the book, "The Ultimate Nutrition Bible." Wade and Matt even put together this massive package of bonus recipes, pretty steep discount on the book, which is obviously big and heavy, so we know it's hella expensive. And I will put links to all of that if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/NutritionBiblePodcast. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/NutritionBiblePodcast. I'm kind of surprised, guys, I got through a full episode with both of you and neither of you told me of some new enema recipe because it seems like every time I talk with you, you tell me to put yogurt or whatever up my butt and hang upside down.

I've got one. Alright.

We'll finish with this.

What do you got, Matt?

And full disclosure, I have not tried it. I'm a little apprehensive.

Great. Great.

Thank you. But I know you and probably excited you. So, according to a Russian friend of mine, He says that proteolytic enemas are the ultimate thing. So basically taking Mastimes as an example, doing an enema with it. He says it's so intense that he tends to not do anything else that day.

So, well, I'm not gonna be the first guy to eat away the lining of my colon, so maybe I'll let you do it, Matt, first, and you can let me know how it goes.

There you go.

But I'll look into it. Honestly, if you send me the research or any info on it, I'll put that in the show notes as well because I've got at least 0.5% of the listeners who heard that and are adding that to their Sunday checklist this week. Guys, thank you so much. I'm going to link to the other shows we did. They're always wide-ranging and highly entertaining. Time just flies by when I'm talking with you guys. And this new book, it's good, everybody. I actually had to get it back from my friend who borrowed it within a week after it arrived. And, he was enjoying it so much, I had to get it back before this show. But, it's a nutrition bible, BenGreenfieldLife.com/NutritionBiblePodcast is where you can access the show notes, leave your comments, your questions, your feedback for Wade or Matt or myself. And, until next time, I'm Ben along with the guys from Bioptimizers.

Signing out. Do you want free access to comprehensive show notes, my weekly roundup newsletter, cutting-edge research and articles, top recommendations from me for everything that you need to hack your life, and a whole lot more? Check out BenGreenfieldLife.com. It's all there. BenGreenfieldLife.com. See you over there. Most of you who listen don't subscribe, like, or rate this show. If you're one of those people who do, then huge thank you. But here's why it's important to subscribe, like, and/or rate this show. If you do that, that means we get more eyeballs, we get higher rankings, and the bigger the Ben Greenfield Life show gets, the bigger and better the guests get and the better the content I'm able to deliver to you. So, hit subscribe, leave a ranking, Leave a review if you got a little extra time. It means way more than you might think. Thank you so much. In compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links going to products are often affiliate links of which I receive a small commission from sales of certain items, but the price is the same for you and some Sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mention. I'm the founder, for example, of Kion LLC, the makers of Kion-branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use, support, and with full authenticity, with authenticity and transparency recommend in good conscience. I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body, and spirit. And I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose.