New Biohacks You Haven't Heard Of (Including A 1-2 Combo For Unique COGNITIVE Powers!) & The World's Best Health Conference With Tim Gray

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast—

when I went carnivore and I added in creatine, 20 grams, and I was having hydrogen water throughout the day, literally the best I've ever felt in my entire life. I literally felt like a hot knife going through warm butter.

Wait, it was carnivore, hydrogen, and what else?

And creatine. The three. I felt alive.

Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, physiologist and nutritionist, and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond.

Ben Greenfield: Tim Gray, multi-time, at least annual, maybe even biannual if that's the actual term that means twice a year, podcast guest now. Tim, usually when I introduce you, I introduce you as the biohacker, but now I'm seeing that you're beginning to be known as the health community guy. Did you just decide you wanted more friends or?

Yeah, I'm short of friends these days. I think what I've seen is that so many things have changed in the biohacking space. And I think one thing that really makes it stand out now is that everyone that goes to these events don't necessarily remember the speakers too much or the supplement they've tried, but they always go, that's where I met blah, blah, blah. And we, you know, so, so always, you always remember the friends you make or the people you meet, not necessarily the technologies and stuff.

Unless, unless, unless you've like met 'em in the ice bath. That happens sometimes.

Oh, or that.

Or curled, curled up together spooning in a hyperbaric chamber.

Exactly. Exactly. And I just like, It's just like, I think, you know, these events are kind of excuses to get back together and hang out with all friends. And I think reuniting the tribe in Austin after Paleo FX's demise and us bringing it back in Austin really made me realize that, holy crap, now I've brought, you know, nearly 4,000 people together in London each year and 2,500 people in Austin. It's kind of like I built quite a health community here and it's kind of the theme for the year. And I think with what you guys are doing, um, with Caleb and Life Network is the community, online community and bringing everyone together as well. So I feel like it's tribe leaders all aligning and bringing everyone together. So, I was just like, actually, I think this is kind of my niche in the biohacking space these days.

Yeah, yeah. For people who are new to the game, Tim runs the Health Optimization Summit originally just out of London. We just did one or he just did one in Austin. I go to most of them or all of them because they're some of the most fantastic health events of the year. So, first of all, if you're listening, show notes, how you can get into the event, VIP tickets, all that, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2025. Tim, the event in Austin obviously had a lot in there regarding community. I talked about the science of loneliness. You're right, that was kind of the idea of bringing the tribe back together. But, was there anything else that kind of stood out as far as the Austin event?

Um, just that everyone really wanted to get back together again. And it was just this massive, great, you know, health hole with so many micro pockets that was just great to come back together. That was really the takeaway from it. The other, the other thing was, um, that was a big learning for me actually was, um, like becoming a, say, a tribe leader. I cringe a little bit saying that, but I guess I kind of am these days.

Well, when you say that, you should have like a loincloth and like a feather sticking out of your hair.

Yeah.

Not the stereotype.

But no, I mean, it really is. I think, who would you sit around a campfire with in the olden days? Who would be around your fire? And I think it's a great analogy for a fireside chat. Who would be around your fire in your tribe? And I think when you have a tribe and you have connection to, you know, we're doing 300, about 300 million views a year at the moment on social medias, which is pretty, pretty insane stuff. And it's like you have a responsibility as a tribe leader to communicate the best you can and act like a king. You know, how would a king behave? And it, I think there's a lot of drama that goes with an event and lots of opposing forces. And I think, how do you behave like an absolute awesome human and become a, you know, a king opposed to an evil ruler? And I think it's a big learning for me. It's a really big learning for me.

Yeah. As long as it's not like a Monty Python king. I mean, you could probably do the accent, but I'm getting better.

I'm getting better, sir.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

All right. So, King Tim, kind of the funnest part about you and me get a chance to chat a few times on this podcast is it's kind of like the random show of what crazy gadgets and new biohacks has Tim discovered and found. So you probably anticipated this question, but sometimes we rabbit hole quite a bit. But fill me in on some of the sexy new stuff you've been testing in anticipation of the London Summit or just trying out for yourself.

Oh, man, there's just so many things going on at the moment. I think the ultimate thing between all of the connecting dots of biohacks is pretty much nature links all of them back together again. And we're using a lot of these things to reverse the damage of technology using technologies. And it always seems to be something that fits into that. I mean, I think, you know, I'm playing with a few new compounds.

I'm not sure.

Have you played with IP6 yet?

IP6? No.

Yeah. Inositol hexophosphate.

Okay.

Have you not heard of this?

I mean, I've heard of inositol for sleep..

So I was put on it about 3 weeks ago by, I don't know if you know him, actually. Do you know Justin McGuire, who's Autonomic Coaching? Looks like Incredible Hulk, but white, not green. No. So he's a very good friend of Dr. Dom Nischwitz and myself and one of our speakers.

Oh, wait, was he— I think I did meet him. Was he in Austin? And he's like a super yoked, like, nerded out dude who's also really smart. You told me in the back room because the last time we were on the show, you shared with me this super powerful antihistamine called ketotifen that actually is pretty good for sleep. Since our podcast, I use it about once a week, but my issue, and I brought it up, I think Justin was standing there, is that it makes you groggy the next day. And by the way, the reason I use it once a week is it's so effective, I stay in bed too long. So, I can only use it if I don't have anything going on the next morning. But he said take saw palmetto extract. Apparently it binds to a similar receptor or somehow kind of like viewing light after you use a whole bunch of melatonin, it somehow kicks it off the receptor or something like that. And I tried it and it actually works. Like, you wake up, you take the saw palmetto, and it kind of reduces a lot of the grogginess.

Yeah. So that's Justin, Justin McGuire. I mean, I work with him personally on some health things, but he recently put me on IP6, and I was like, what is What is this stuff? And I found it to be really interesting to support your immune system and whatnot. And essentially it chelates iron and inhibits abnormal cell growth. So what that does is it supports your immune system somewhat, and it's a form of inositol, which is obviously a sugar molecule with 6 phosphate group attached. And what it does is it acts as an antioxidant and a metal chelator.. And you obviously don't wanna do that too much depending on your iron status, but I found it to be really, really quite interesting.

So this would be like if you, if you, let's say you're like a man, cuz men have more of the hemochromatosis issue, the high iron, this is something you could use to control that instead of say giving blood.

Exactly. I mean, I, I do think giving blood is one of the best, I, what a great biohack as well, to be fair. Let's be honest. But it is kind of offloading a load of toxins to other people.

Yeah, potentially.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously I think there's some screening and filtration that takes place, but you're right. So the iron thing, were you doing that because you have high iron?

No, I was doing it for immune support, actually, because I've been fighting a sinus thing after a bone lateral sinus lift about a year ago now. And I keep on getting sinus issues here, but that's supporting that. For that. And also my liver enzymes are a little bit high because I've been on a heavy anti-parasite protocol. And so just wanted to support my immune system while coming off of those.

Now the IP6, if that's a metal chelator, I think you said, do you have to have any concerns about it just causing metal to wind up elsewhere in the body, like in your brain or your neural tissue, or does it just kind of pass out in the stool or something?

Exactly. Yeah, it draws it out through the stools. It's quite, it's almost like rice. It feels like rice powder. In fact, I think it actually comes from rice in some form. I'm just gonna check on this.

It feels like, right, like when you poop it out, it feels like rice powder?

No, no. I mean, it feels, it's quite a heavy powder, like when you go in with your drink. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. So it comes from whole grains like oats and corn and seeds and legumes and nuts and things like that. But yeah, it acts as a phosphate storage molecule. And I found that it's really interesting because my sinuses have got significantly better since being on it for about 3 weeks now. And I've just come off it this morning. And, uh, yesterday I thought I was coming down with, you know, when your, the back of your throat starts feeling a bit funny and you're like, oh, I'm going to come down with something. Yeah. I woke up and it was completely gone. It was like bloody fantastic. So I think that combined with my colostrum powder, um, every day seems to help my immune system so much. You know, people around me have had colds and coughs and everything, and I don't seem to get anything when I'm on these two.

So this, uh, this IP6, is that like an over-the-counter or pharmaceutical? Yeah.

Over the counter, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it seems to be well researched and well used as well. Not traditionally medical, but yeah, I found it to be awesome for immune. So anyone that's suffering, getting too many colds or whatnot, or has high iron, but if you have low iron, I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah. So you think like Amazon or iHerb or something like that would have it?

iHerb, I think, got it. Yeah. I mean, Justin actually shipped me some from South Africa. Oh. In this case, but yeah, it comes in like a nice little jam jar. Is great.

So legit South African IP6. You heard it here first, folks. Yeah. What, what else is cool?

So something I've been looking into recently, which is super good, is exosome eye drops, potentially for glaucoma. Not for myself, for a friend of mine. So I've got a very good stem cell friend of mine from Stockholm, and I'm going to have some stem cells done with him. And a friend of mine, I just happened to be at the time, and he said, I got glaucoma. Can I get stem cells for my glaucoma? So I asked the stem cell guy and he was like, well, actually, no, I'm not really too comfortable about injecting anywhere near eyes. I think I'll give that one a miss.

Did you hear about the story in the US? I think it was the Stem Cell Institute in Florida. 3 people wound up blind from stem cell treatments in their eyes. This was like 3 years ago, maybe more.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I didn't know about that.

So maybe that's why he was a little gun-shy.

So, He said no, but Exosome eye drops are fantastic for this. 'Cause it helps obviously reduce inflammation and helps repairing various other things as well to go with that, like astaxanthin. But yeah, so Exosome eye drops I think is quite an emerging biohack for eye health.

So where do you get those?

Flown over from Florida on dry ice, apparently.

And are they like something you can just like go to a website and order or?

You need a doctor. Yeah, I think it needs to come via a proper doctor.

Yeah. I wonder if they're coming from the company Juvexo out of Florida. There's a company called Juvexo. I interviewed them on my podcast a few months ago out of Miami. I forget the guy's name, but apparently, they're very purified, clean exosomes derived from umbilical cord tissue. And, when I talk with them, we were talking about the injectable version or an IV version or intranasal, but Maybe they do the eye drops too.

Yeah, I've got some news I'll tell you offline afterwards that maybe we can share in a year's time on the next podcast about this.

All right. So when you put them in, do you notice anything as far as vision or clarity?

Haven't used them yet, but from what I've looked up and read into, obviously for my friend, it's actually quite interesting how well it works for glaucoma. But obviously, as you know, glaucoma comes from sugar— well, often comes from sugar metabolism and too high sugar diet. And genetic component as well as a methylation component as well. So I think exosomes is a good, an amazing plaster, but not necessarily the fix long term, but it does seem to have some good results. But again, anecdotally.

Yeah, I like how you say plaster. We say bandaid, you say plaster. It's amazing plaster. What else? What else has been turning your head?

Well, you know, Qualia, this is a good one. You know, Qualia, the nootropic that's been around forever and a day seems to be the longest. Yeah. Qualia. Mind. Mind. Yeah. I love this stuff. I always had, even before I was known as Tim Biohacker or the community guy or whatever, whatever, whatever label there is this, this year. But I have always used Qualia and really like it, but obviously it's got choline in it. And what I've really enjoyed doing is stacking it with piracetam, aniracetam and piracetam. Because I don't know, have you played around with much with piracetam or aniracetam or any of these smart drugs?

A little bit. The only smart drug I kind of have that I occasionally use is modafinil. If I'm super sleep deprived, usually international travel, I take that. And then, I think Nootopia has Aracetam in one of their products, I believe. I might be misspeaking, but it's not like a— I don't have a bunch just laying around. Just describe Aracetams to people.

So racetam basically opens up the receptors for choline or acetylcholine in the brain, whereas pretty much every other smart drug there is plays on acetylcholine levels in the brain, whereas piracetam actually opens up those receptors so that you actually use more acetylcholine so you have better brain power. So when you stack something like Qualia Mind, which has choline in it as well as various other things, and you use piracetam at the same time, you're giving your body more levels and more ability to use those. So, yeah, I find it to be almost euphoric as well when I stack the two together, which I find super interesting. I usually like listening to music or whatever, and I'm in focus mode, and I feel like I just wanna, I just feel like I've, I'm coming up on something, something I shouldn't be.

Yeah, it's kind of, that's kind of the choline things, like the concept of the brain omelet, you know, eggs, a little bit of smoked salmon and some like walnut pesto, you know, with two very dense sources of choline. I've, I never put the brain omelet in any of my cookbooks, but you know, that those are dietary sources of choline. And supplemental sources tend to be a little bit higher. But either way, that's an interesting stack to combine racetam with the choline. And so, you would just take something like Qualia Mind and then a piracetam or aniracetam along with that.

And you can buy those over the counter or online or whatnot. But it's actually interesting because you mentioned modafinil. I've never really liked modafinil. I always found it to be a bit jittery and weird for me. And some people say that they feel like more like themselves when they're taking modafinil, but I feel jittery and like I've had some non—

Yeah, I feel the same way. Almost robotic, like very analytical, like wide awake, especially sleep deprived, but yeah, not quite myself.

Yeah, yeah. I don't enjoy it and I really enjoy piracetam. It's really like, I really don't enjoy modafinil at all, but piracetam is a fantastic one when stacked with qualia anyway. I mean, I think, you know, I've just, put them head to head here just to, just to see how they sit. And it's like, you know, piracetam is a cognitive enhancer versus modafinil is alertness, focus, and anti-fatigue, which I can't sleep on the stuff even, you know, 12 hours later.

Oh yeah.

It's me.

Yeah. Usually after you dose it, you can't sleep well at night and you usually have early morning awakenings. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's useful if you gotta get through a really tough period of sleep deprivation, but I think there's some biological implications to long-term use, especially. And I know some people have been taking acid for years, just like every day for years and years. And I mean, if you can do it, great, more power to you, but I don't think I could get by on that.

No, I don't think so either. I mean, I really don't enjoy it, but I think if you tried Piracetam, anyone that's on modafinil and want to try Piracetam and stack it with Qualia Mind, I think you're going to be extremely happy with the new stack. 'cause it makes you a little bit happier. I find, so the mechanism increases acetylcholine use, um, and in brain enhances brain signaling, whereas modafinil boosts, um, dopamine, histamine, and, um, improves wakefulness.

And where do people get, uh, racetams?

Good old Google. Good old Google. Yeah. Okay. You can, there's, there's quite a few different, there's oxiracetam, piracetam, aniracetam. Like a whole load of different ones you can have that have different strengths. So you might want 5 milligrams of oxiracetam, but 100 milligrams of piracetam.

Which, which one do you think works best if you stack it with Qualia Mind?

I think piracetam specifically is my favorite.

So we got, we got a piracetam Qualia Mind combo. What about technologies? 'Cause you know, whenever you do these expos, this is what I like about the, Health Optimization Summit is I describe it as the consumer electronic show of biohacking where there's just a huge expo floor full of all these things you can try. And, you've usually got some things there that I haven't seen before that folks haven't come across before, products that have freshly launched and don't have a lot of market penetration yet. Is there anything like that coming up in for the London Summit or something that was at the Austin Summit that's kind of stuck with you? Being really helpful or at least really intriguing.

Yes. The latest bit of tech that I've been playing around with actually, and I saw it at Bryan Johnson's event in Miami first actually, and it's NeuroSim, which you clip onto your ear. What do you call it? This bit here?

I don't know. I just call it the inside of the ear, the other little hard bumpy thing.

Yeah. So, you clip it onto there and then you set the strength of it and it's set emits a shock just slightly, and you can turn the volume up of it until it becomes almost uncomfortable.

Oh, wait, I think I have one of these and it just goes on one ear.

Yes, that's right.

I have one of these. It arrived. I use it like twice and I don't know why I didn't use it more, but is it like an ear stimulation of the vagus nerve? Is that what it's called?

Yeah, exactly. For the left branch of the vagus nerve. Apparently it's unsafe to use the right-hand side supposedly, but I'm not quite sure how correct that is. But yeah, so I've been using it now for about 6 weeks and I found it to be really— I find working with it on to be really great. And I use it, I'm actually using it for 30 minutes twice a day right now. I found that my digestion is slightly better from it. I find that when I'm working out, I seem to have more flexibility, being able to move my spine better. And I've always had postural issues and tight muscles. So, I feel like it's really, really working very well. So, they are Neurosym. They're at the summit, which is going to be great.

Ben Greenfield: By the way, with Neurosym, I always thought about using it for relaxation. So, the couple of times I used it, I was using it with headphones, and maybe that's why it didn't stick because it made the left headphone sound weird. But, I never thought about just sticking it on. I could be wearing it right now while I'm talking to you or during a workout. That's it. I mean, I'll have to drag it back out and mess around with it a little bit.

Yeah, I really like it. I really like it just on its own, you know, walking around the house, doing housework, whatever. Just leave it on for 30 minutes twice a day. So I think, you know, I think our vagus nerve is so important for so many reasons, and most of us aren't stimulating it enough. We're not doing breathwork properly. We're not necessarily stretching in the gym properly, you know, living sedentary lives and I think giving it a little shock for 30 minutes twice a day actually works really well. I found that my sleep is slightly better on the days that I use it, minimally, but a little bit better. And my cognitive performance seems to be better as well. So I'm not quite sure what it's doing exactly on a full physiological level, but this is a device I really like. And they haven't paid me to say this, by the way. I just really, really like the device.

Yeah. Are they going to be at the summit in London?

Yeah.

Try it. Okay, cool. What about that thing that was in Austin? And I first saw it at the summit in London. It's like the big bed. It's a human regenerator or re—

Human regenerator. Yeah.

Yeah, the human regenerator. Is that thing still kind of around? Are they going to be at the summit? Because I've only ever seen it at your events and everybody who tries it really likes it. But how do you describe it to people?

It's a MedBed. So first thing is that, yeah, MedBed is a new label, I guess. And it's based on cold atmospheric plasma, which is generally used in, you know, focal areas of healing on the body. And what the bed does is it's taken it from a focal treatment, you know, in clinics to a full bed size. What it is, I think it's a 30,000-volt static electricity field. That goes over you, and then you have grounding plates on your hands and on your feet. And what this does is it's almost like turbo grounding.

That's what they should have called it, the Turbo Grounder 3XZ.

I mean, it— the thing is, it, it bloody works. Like, I, I got this email probably 2022, and, you know,, as I'm sure you do as well, get loads of emails and everyone's saying that they've got a life-changing device that just please, Ben, I really need you to use it.

Yeah. Break Olympic records and yada, yada, yada.

Yeah. And everyone's got this life-saving device and life-saving supplement and it gets a bit overwhelming. But for some reason I opened up this email and I read it and I was just like, actually, cold atmospheric plasma. I'm gonna look into this. So I dug into cold atmospheric plasma quite a bit more. Actually, yeah, this is really scientifically backed.. And no one has done it on a full body scale for some reason, but these German engineers, um, had, so they flew me out to Germany, put me up in a hotel, got me to test out the device. And they were very science-y German tech guys. And I found it to be, I found, I felt so in parasympathetic very quickly, scarily quickly. It's almost like my body was just in a symbiotic, super calm state in a place where, you know, rest and digest on steroids, basically.

Yeah.

And I was just like, there's something in this. And I was yawning like crazy, which I only ever get just at the end of a hyperbaric session when your body is actually used to more oxygen for a while, and then you go into almost as a starved state of oxygen, right?

Like rebound hypoxia kind of.

Exactly. And then you, I find that I start yawning at that point 'cause my body's going, oh, I really like that oxygen. I need more of this stuff. But I had that on the Human Regenerator and there's nothing to do with oxygen on there. So I was like, I knew there was something in it. So I, I, I used it a few times and then I spoke to someone that said, oh yeah, I had had immune issues for quite a long time, she said. And I, I used to get warts, warts on my hand quite badly and I couldn't ever get them cured. So, but after a week of using the the Human Regenerator, the warts went away. So, it's obviously giving the body something it needs and obviously free of electrons. If you're deficient in electrons, we know what it does to cortisol levels. They either go too high, go too low, the body doesn't heal properly, then the blood doesn't flow as freely. So, having hypergrounding in this context, the Human Regenerator is fantastic. And, I actually labeled it 2023 biohack of the year for me, just because I found it to be so effective. And since then, since then, they did the US show and they sold devices, I think, 150 or 200K. They sold devices at the show off the floor, which is unusual for a B2C event like that.

What about fitness? Like, whether it's devices or protocols or anything new in the whole kind of like fitness department? Because when you go to the expo, you got the AirX and the Carol bike and some of these things that have been staples in the biohacking community or the time-efficient exercise space for years. Anything new in the fitness department?

There's a couple of fitness devices coming on board. Can't share them yet because they haven't signed up. Gosh darn it.

Sign up, people. Come on. What are you waiting for?

We've got, like, literally 3 booths left, so I'm hoping they do sign up. But it's interesting because the whole fitness space is a really interesting space right now because gyms aren't evolving and yet biohacking labs are. And I, I'm seeing a big shift in this whole fitness, you know, uh, moving from aesthetics of muscle bros to, you know, optimizers, health optimizers, optimizing from the inside out. I mean, just look at our friend Chris Gevin, for instance, you know, hardcore bodybuilder turned biohacker. And I think this is what's really happening to the gym space and the gym industry in general. So Yeah, we got a few technologies from this, from this area coming to the show. I won't disclose them just yet, but I think you're going to have some fun on the playground there.

Yeah, I think kind of for better and worse with the whole shift in the fitness space towards cold baths, PMF recovery boots, sauna, you know, time-efficient exercise. I think you also run the risk of people forgetting that at the end of the day, you do have to just like lift heavy shit. And it kind of sucks. And you do need some iron and sometimes an unpredictable kettlebell or sandbag instead of a machine. Every week when I work out, I'm always thinking, okay, am I slipping into that category of just strapping myself into some fancy machine or can I still carry a sandbag up the driveway?

Yeah, it's a very valid point. I think this is one of the things a certain biohacker gets slammed for because, you know, some of them don't want to work out, but they want the results from doing it. Right.

Six-pack abs in 15 minutes a week, whatever.

It's like, I mean, that's one of the things that actually I like the Carol bike very much. I mean, minimum effective dose exercise is kind of smart. Um, you know, but you're missing the psychology aspect of working out and lifting.

I like it, but then at the same, like, I went on a 2.5-hour hike, uh, 2 mornings ago, and there is just something different mentally. Physically, the rigorous nature of it, the necessity of the shift towards fat burning if you're not doing something like that fed, and I think there's benefits of that. And just the time spent on your feet. When I used to race Ironman, I was the minimalist training guy, but even for me and all my athletes, we always had at least one session per week where we were going past just the quick 30, 40-minute HIIT sessions and getting 2 hours on the feet out on the running trail or 4 hours in the bike saddle just to get the butt used to what that feels like. And I realize that's racing-specific, but I do think there's something about just some long endurance session outdoors or, again, lifting a kettlebell or a sandbag that a stationary bicycle or an exercise machine is difficult to simulate with. Yeah.

I love that you said this, actually. That's really funny because I was in Greece, Corfu, last weekend. I went for a holiday, but I know the owner of the hotel, and we're going to do a retreat, health optimization, VVIP retreat for about 100 people next April. And it's funny because my friend who owns the hotel, said, let's go for a hike tomorrow morning. And it, you know, it was early and I was like, it's gonna get hot. And I started coming up with all these excuses in my head and I was like, yeah, let's do it. So I just, I committed and did it. And we did this hike all the way up the top, you know, behind, and it's like all through these paths and everything. And I remember going up these, uh, this rock where someone probably 300 years ago chiseled out the side of the rock. So there's steps up in the side of it. And I'm like, my calves are killing. This is absolutely insane. If I was in a gym now, I would've stopped 10 minutes ago., but I'm still going through necessity because I have to get to this peak up there. There's a real goal, and I can't go back because I look weak, and I want to get to the top and see the view. And it's like, actually, this is going to kill tomorrow.

Fantastic.

And it's like the necessity of doing the random stuff and climbing up and moving around. And so it's funny you've touched on that.

Yeah. If you were on the stairmill during that time in the gym, you probably would have moved on to the percussion gun or stability ball. But yeah, when it's out there in the wilderness, you just got to keep going. I'm interested in the Greek. I love grape leaves and feta cheese and ouzo liqueur. So, keep me posted on that. Greece is a country I haven't been to. So, speaking of grape leaves, what about the whole food and beverage space? Because there's always some new bar or protein powder or camel, yak, goat milk Camaro combo or whatever. What about that space? Is there anything new, whether new vendors or new things you've come across?

There's a few bits and pieces on the floor in terms of food. And in fact, this is the last area of the hall that we curate. The reason being is that we fill up the hall and then at the end we open up some startup or smaller booths for brands that are trying to break through but can't afford to do an event like ours, to be honest. And I, it's how I support startups and smaller brands and generally the food The few food brands generally are newer, smaller startups that they can't afford these things. So we put them on the map last.

Right. It's like the biohacking equivalent of a lemonade stand.

Yeah, basically. And I like to support these guys because unfortunately we are in London and we are in a very prestige venue with lots of expensive things going on and very, very high risk financially and very low reward financially. But an amazing fun playground and it's an event I always wanted for myself. So it's great. But yeah, to support some of these smaller brands that come in last minute is really important. So there are some, um, I can't disclose them just yet. There is one that I do support that I love very much and it's a brand called Fudi, F-U-D-I. Um, they were there last year and they are healthy oils, all ethical, healthy oils. So really good olive oils, a spray one that hasn't got any of the nasty additives in it to make it thin and stuff. And healthy fats and things like that. So I'm seeing a trend, actually a trend of a few different brands of healthy olive oils and things like that now coming out from, you know, Europe.

Do, do you think that's like riding on the back of the Bryan Johnson olive oil thing or something like the seed oil craze or just a combination of factors?

A combination of everything. I mean, if you look at, that's one of the things about Maha, again, politics to one side, cuz I don't wanna get into that, but Maha really is driving innovation because so many companies are now going, okay, we need a seed oil-free version of this because we want to, we want to be first to market with this new thing, or it's driving so many areas of innovation and health now from these chemicals. And I think, you know, big industries are going, okay, we're going to have to change our compliance. Do we want to be ahead of this? Are we going to go and acquire some of these brands now and bring them in? And so it's really interesting to see how many products are coming out because I've heard this so many times from smaller brands now. They're going, well, Actually, we were the first in the market with this. We're scaling like crazy. And we know that we're going to get acquired in a couple of years' time because all the big industries are now looking at this stuff that we've been talking about for 10 years. So there are a few of those brands there. In fact, one of them, I, when we were in Austin, you came out, we went out for dinner and I took my mentee Gaëtan, uh, the founder of Mythos with us.

Yeah. He has like the face tallow stuff.

Yeah, exactly.

What's it called again?

Yeah, Mythos Men and Mythos Women. Yeah, so it's copper peptides, so it repairs the collagen matrix and niacinamide to help increase blood flow to get the nutrients in, and then microfiltered tallow for the nutrients. And people, it just works. The amount of people that come up to me in the street and say, Tim, I love your face cream. I was like, I'm an investor in it because I just love supporting the 25-year-old founder. And the product just works. But that's a classic example of how someone, in fact, he, like I told you when we went for dinner, he spent 10 hours a day working in a steel factory 2 years ago, listening to Ben Greenfield podcasts, hearing about these crazy things like Tallow, and then created this product, which is now scaling like absolutely nuts. Like, like he's gone from, you know, being an employee to having a very successful company in no time just because the market really needs products like this.

Yeah. And inspirational, by the way, that somebody can go from steel factory to pursuing their dream and creating a health product.

After listening to the Ben Greenfield podcast for 10 hours a day. I'm not joking.

Seriously, let's say that part.

I don't think you knew this.

I should probably just be getting more royalty checks from more people after inspiring them to start weird businesses.

It's funny because I didn't know the full story of everything before, but when he sat down across the table from you and you didn't—

I don't think you knew this, but he was just sitting there like, Oh, that's funny.

I'm like, I'm sitting across the table from Ben Greenfield, who I learned from. It's like quite hilarious.

Yeah. And he, uh, I remember he doesn't get into, uh, I guess it's called, I learned this new word a few months ago, pink labeling, where you take a product that you're producing and produce a female-specific version. Uh, is that what's called like pink labeling, right?

Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, there's like greenwashing as well, which is the one where you put in green.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, in fact, my ex-partner kept on nicking my Mythos skin cream so much because it worked better than her stuff that we decided we'd bring out a female one, add another peptide in it for female skin, and then it doubled the company overnight. Yeah. And it just works. It just really works.

So, yeah. What do you think about that? That surge? Because, like, JJ Virgin has— JJ, I love you. I'm not totally in love with the name. Yet, but she has like shiitine, shiitine, which is like a female version of creatine. I guess I just think it sounds a little too close to like shit to me at least, but I could be wrong. Sorry, JJ. I know that you— JJ, by the way, is responsible for naming my book Boundless, so I know she knows how to name stuff. So, she's got shiitine and then your buddy's doing like the female version of Mythos. What do you think of this seeming surge towards female-specific products?

I think it's bloody fantastic because back in 2019 when I started the summit, uh, my at the time COO, uh, or event manager Dasha, being female and had her, her health issues for years, said, you know, female health is super important, but biohacking is very bro science, you know, bro, all the biohackers are male. There's no real female biohackers. So what that's done is it's now fueled so many more female biohackers to come out there. I mean, we obviously, we got role models like JJ. Um, and we've got people like Alicia Vitti and we've got Jolene Brighton and we've got all of these, you know, some, uh, Mindy Pells as well. I mean, like, you know, and Mindy's gone mainstream. I mean, she's gone, you know, she's grown amazingly. And now we're talking, now we've got the generation that's peri and postmenopausal and all of these things. So I'm, it's really great that the female space is growing and as the female space is growing, so are like products and brands that fit that category. Obviously females are far more intuitive than us guys for the most part, and they know what they need naturally. And a lot of them sit with more natural products a lot of the time. But education is a key piece. And I think, how many times have you heard in the last however many months women that have been on the pill and been on Accutane and had all sorts of hormone issues and liver stress and acne? It's widespread. And I think there's been— female health has been so—

yeah, there's consequences to artificial cycle suppression, believe it or not, massively.

And I think because of pregnancy and fertile years and how studies work and how men are so stable through the hormones throughout the month, and it's a better baseline for doing tests, women have kind of been sidelined, unfortunately. But now it's swung back around the other way. And, uh, there's a lot of innovation in the space for females. You know, Sheerteen is perfect in, in, I think it's a funny name now you say it like that, but I think, you know, one thing I've learned in the last year or so is many good new brands that come out are just better at promoting and branding something so people understand the value of it. And, uh, you know, there's a creatine brand I heard about last week, a couple of weeks ago, that they're doing $30 million a year in creatine monohydrate. And what have they done? They've just branded it better.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a huge part of it. And also the female demographic, you know, I don't know if you know Angelo. Have you met Angelo, my CEO and co-founder?

I've spoken to him many times but never met him.

Yeah, he's a great, great guy. We should get him out to one of the summits sometime. But we were talking demographics the other day. Our top customer base by far at Kion is the 50 to 55-year-old female demographic who is super interested in health, wants to spend money on good supplements. And, it's interesting because at least I would have thought looking at some of our products like aminos and creatine and protein powder that it would be maybe a 30 to 45-year-old male demographic, but older females are probably the top demographic in the world right now interested in health, biohacking, fitness, pretty much anything related to body optimization.

Yeah, I mean, they're much more intuitive and now it's much more pro, pro-female. Yeah, I just want to jump back onto one of the technologies actually that people get to try at the summit because I've just remembered one. I've seen my notes stupidly. Munk ice baths.

Oh yeah. I, I, people hear about a brand of ice baths though, and they're like, well, what could be different? Like, they're all just cold water.

Yeah. I mean, this is a smart ice bath with, I think it's ozone filtering and it looks fantastic. I mean, it's proper show home stuff, but with a really good price.

I saw it last year. It's, it's pretty.

Yeah, it's very pretty. They've, they've launched, they've launched recently. They look fantastic. And, Yeah, really excited for them to be back at the summit. I mean, ice baths really are mainstream now as well. I mean, everyone seems to have—

Yeah, I mean, it's June here. I'm in mine like 3 times a day. But you know what I started using? I finished building one in my garage. I got a generator from this company called Lumati, L-U-M-A-T-I. It's a hydrogen bath, meaning like you get a preexisting bathtub And, I put this just out in the garage and then you connect it to a water inlet. The water flows in through the Hydrogen Unit, hydrogenates the water, and then that's what you bathe in. And, you get massive amounts of transdermal hydrogen absorption in the bath. I've done it. I mean, I just finished the bath last week. I've done 3 soaks now and you just feel pain-free, low levels of soreness, pretty much anything you get from a high dose of hydrogen, but you just lay there in the bath.

It's funny cuz the first time I went around Gary Brecker's house, um, his, we went around to record a podcast and he was busy and it's like, dude, just enjoy my, you know, my biohacking castle for a while. And he is like, I'm gonna put you in this bath. And he is like, turned on the bath and hydrogen water comes out almost milky into the bath. And he was just like, there I am in my Y-fronts pretty much, in my, my, my, my Calvins, skinny little, skinny little dude next to Gary who's like, uh, monster. And sitting in this little bath the first time I've gone around Gary's house and I'm like, dude, you do some weird shit.

Yes. You know what? I've been on a hydrogen inhalation unit next to my Roxiva lamp. So I lay there and do my Roxiva session with a hydrogen mask on. And now I'm taking hydrogen baths. So I went from doing the pills every day to now I just decided to go. And next thing, it'll be like a hydrogen enema or suppository or something. But I'm just going for as many delivery mechanisms as possible with hydrogen. And it works. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I, I've been— it's one of my, one of my hacks that I really appreciated this year very much was— and Gary got me onto this as well, actually, was the hydrogen Echo water bottle. I didn't realize that Gary was like, dude, you've got to look into this hydrogen stuff. And this was like a year and a half ago now. Dude, you got to, you got to check this stuff out. And I started using it religiously, and I found that when I went carnivore and I added in creatine at 20 grams, and I was having hydrogen water throughout the day, literally the best I've ever felt in my entire life. I literally felt like a hot knife going through warm butter.

Wait, it was carnivore, hydrogen, and what else?

And creatine.

The three. Okay.

Huh. No, felt alive. I mean, after I lost too much body fat, I needed to add in some carbs again, so I couldn't be fully carnivore for too long being an ectomorph hard gainer skinny dude.

So the event in London, you know, I encourage a lot of people to go and I realize many people listening in, they're like, man, I don't wanna like buy an international plane ticket and go all the way over there for like a, you know, a health conference. But talk to me about what goes on? Like, how do you describe the London Summit to people?

3,500 to 4,000 people, one massive, great, naturally lit hall in the center of London with 35 to 40 now keynote speakers such as yourself, Gary Brecker, Peter Crone, Rangan Chatterjee, Barbara O'Neill. You know, the list goes on, like, all top-tier speakers, um, with 8 talks on each stage, 3 stages a day, a playground of 140 brands, you know, ranging from red light therapy, ice baths, MONQ, for instance, you know, Carol Bike, Katalyst EMS suit. You can try out the technologies.

It is kind of nice because you don't have to work out before you go because there's just like cold baths and workout equipment all over.

Um, one thing I always think about whenever I see you at an event anywhere, and we, we You're always able to test stuff out. And I— how do you get past everyone that stops you just for one? Ben, just need 30 seconds, just want to ask you something.

Oh, I have a super simple secret. I'm really good at being an asshole. That's— I will avoid eye contact, be like, you know what, I'm going to work out right now. You can follow me and talk to me while I'm doing a chest press on the ARX if you want.

Every wrap-up video from every summit I've ever been to, there's you in an ice bath, there's you doing a carol, there's you having IV. And I'm like, you know what, I've only been able to walk the hall for 2 minutes.

I, you know, I talk to a lot of speakers, go to these events, and they do a great job networking and, you know, in the green room with the other speakers. And I, I can't help myself, dude. Like, I am actually in this industry because I love it, and I'm like a kid in a candy store. Even when I go to a conference with stuff I've even seen before, for me it's just like a playground, you know. All my friends are running around, I get to try crap, and I'm pretty bad at just like standing around and sitting still and talking to people. So You know, I just go out there and mess around with shit. And then that's, I don't know. I'm, I, I love it.

Even when you're in a talk, right? And I've seen you at quite a few talks these days. Even when you're in a talk, you're at the back stretching, like leaning up against the wall, pulling your legs out, doing all sorts of different things. It's like, it's, it's very active approach, but I'm, I'm in the space because I love it too. And that's why I created the Health Optimization Summit so I could enjoy the event and playground. It's almost like, you know, I felt like I built it for me, but I can't quite get to enjoy it fully because it's quite a stressful thing to run. But everything that I try throughout the year and more, everything's vetted by me. Nothing makes it to the show without my approval. It's all approved. No seed oils, no nasty additives. If there's a supplement that's got something like silicon dioxide in it, for instance, I say you can exhibit on the agreement that you do remove it from your next version. So that way people get to try these and get to know this stuff. So it's a really big playground for health. But the most important thing is the health community, making friends. You know, I knew no one in this space when I started my meetup in 2017. No one. I had no friends in the health space at all. Now I have friends in every country around the world who are incredibly heartfelt, amazing humans because they're all being humbled by either health problems or they want to make the world a better place. Some amazing friends. Like, for instance, when I first— I mentioned Gary again because I was so astounded by how much of an amazing mission mission-led human he was when I met him. He was like, dude, wherever you are, like, I'm with you. Like, let's, you know, mission-led, nothing else.

That dude's got a really big heart.

And this space is full of these guys that are just out to help make the world a little bit better than they found it. And that's what I take from going to these shows. It's like you make some incredible friends. Like JJ, for instance. I'd wanted to meet JJ for many years, and I saw her at A4M in Vegas. Couple of years ago, walked past her. I just like, that's JJ. I gotta say hello. Next thing I know, we're working together. She's speaking at the events. I go to her events. I got to know her husband Tim. Well, you know, and it's just fantastic. Everyone wants to make the world a little bit better. And I think you get to meet those tribe, you get opportunities to hang out with these people, you get to start a new business in this space, you get to make the world a little bit better instead of just working behind a desk for a cause that you don't even know or believe in.. And I think that's what I take from the event, and that's why I like to be the health community guy, because I see podcasts happen, I see people hanging out, I see photos of people hanging out around the world that have met at the show, and it just, it's just so rewarding, you know, on a deep level of legacy and helping to make the world a little bit better. So that's why I recommend coming to the show.

There's obviously a lot of new faces in the industry in terms of like experts and influencers. One guy that comes to mind who I haven't interviewed yet, but he's on my radar for sure, super smart, Nick Norwitz. He's like an MD PhD, like public science educator on YouTube. So, it has a pretty good head on his shoulders. He's one guy I've kind of taken note of as somebody who seems credible and knowledgeable putting out good content. Nick, it's Norwitz or Norwitz. I think N-O-R-W-I-T-Z. Anybody you think of as like, an up-and-comer to keep your eye on or someone whose content you would recommend that people follow when it comes to maybe a new name or face people haven't seen before?

Dr. Karan Rajan. He's very big on Instagram, YouTube, and his podcast. I think he's got like 20 million followers across the platform, across the platforms. He's a UK doctor, NHS doctor, but he, you know, kind of picks holes in where it's got it wrong. So he's quite instrumental in helping to change the UK. NHS, I think.

How, how do you, how do you spell his name?

Dr. K-A-R-A-N, Karan. Okay. And then Rajan, R-A-J-A-N. And he's, he's quirky. He's a great, he's a great dude, actually. He's like, we became friends quite quickly cuz he's just such a good dude. He talks about gut health a lot and fiber and how to optimize microbiome and things. So yeah, Dr. Karan Rajan, he's a great, he's a great guy. You'll meet him at the show.

He's speaking. Oh, incredible. Of course he is.

And then you've got Barbara O'Neill, the Australian lady. I don't know if you're familiar with her or not. All the alternative healthy cures. So yes, we've got those guys coming. We've got Claudia Mühlenberg, who is the eye health doctor who looks at the eye health as an indicator that your car service light is on. So if your sight starts to get worse. That's because there's some inflammation or something in the body that needs fixing and how to figure it out, uh, one through psychology and through biohacking yourself. So that's someone that's up and coming for sure. Um, I, she did mention that she was on Dave's podcast a few years ago and it was one of the most popular podcasts of, of that year. And, uh, I found the same when I interviewed on my podcast. She's a fantastic woman as well.

Do you think she, or do you know of an app that would just like take a picture of your eyes? And do some kind of a diagnosis based on that? You'd think something like that might exist.

Yeah, I don't know of one.

Hey, if you're listening and you know of one, leave a comment. BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2025.

I'm interested. Who's the other one? Ooh, I like that. James Swanwick. Oh, do you know James Swanwick?

Yeah, we just had an alcohol debate on my podcast.

Oh, did you? Is it out? Is it out yet? Because I haven't seen this.

Yeah. So, I got some comments. People thought that I was being mean or questioning him too much, but he actually approached me and wanted it to be a debate. So, it literally was me as the pro-alcohol guy, him as the zero-alcohol-is-good-for-you guy. And we had a pretty good matchup. Yeah, it's out. I'll link to it in the shownotes if people haven't heard it yet. Yeah, you should take a listen. I'd be curious what you think.. And if I would, if I was too mean.

No, no, I, I, um, I'll have a listen to that cuz James is a good friend actually. Um, he was a guy that founded Swanwick blue blocking glasses, which is the, the OG brand. Um, and, uh, yeah, no, alcohol-free life is his thing and it's fantastic. It's doing really well for him, but he's very up and coming in the alcohol-free world and I think it's good. I mean, we are seeing the trend across the world with alcohol dropping, consumption dropping, and everyone doing sauna and Right.

Sauna and magic mushrooms. Yeah. Also, also that, which I mean, in all respect, like I know that, you know, there's questionable aspects of legality and maybe youth use and stuff, but I do think that something like a small dose of psilocybin is technically far more risk-free and can give you many of the socially lubricating benefits you might be looking for from alcohol.

Yeah, then I agree. I mean, obviously in a legal place, in with, uh, with a proper person and in a safe space and, and don't eat the whole chocolate bar. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's a, it's a really interesting lineup this year. I mean, I'm just looking at it now. We've got, uh, yeah, Rangan Chatterjee, who is I think the biggest health podcaster in Europe. Gary Brecker, Barbara O'Neill, some dude called Ben Greenfield, if you know him. Dr. Josh Axe, Vonda Wright, Dr. Karen Rajan, Alicia Vitti, Davinia Taylor, Dr. Darshan Shah, legend, Dr. Dom Nischwitz.

Man, it's a good lineup.

Oh, and Jay Campbell as well, who I'm really looking forward to hanging out with. He's a good dude.

Yes, the yoked peptide guy. Can't have too many yoked dudes at a conference. And also, Tim always gives my listeners some pretty cool codes and discounts to get in. And there's also a VIP ticket where you get this super cool VIP lounge and good food. And are you going to have IVs there again, Tim?

Yep. Yep. IVs. The VIP lounge is pretty amazing. I mean, it's a, it's an enhanced experience. It's accessible to everyone with the general admission ticket, but the VIP experience is pretty good because you get to hang out in the VIP lounge and chat to speakers and try out a few extra cool things. Yeah.

If you can't find me, that's usually where I'm at. So, bengreenfieldlife.com/hos25 is where you can register for that. And then, I will also put all of my other interviews with Tim, my interview or my debate I should say with James, everything else that we mentioned. If you go to bengreenfieldlife.com/tim2025, Tim, I'll try the piracetam qualia combo and the neurostim during work, and I'll let you know how I feel when I see you in September.

Yeah, nice one, dude. I want to leave with one note for those of you that are wondering whether you should come to the show, or even if you want to create your own show, which I'm a big fan of. It's not what's in your fridge, it's who you're with when you shop and when you eat. Make sure you surround yourself with the best. Because that's when your decisions become better and easier and you all hold each other accountable. And this is such an important point to remember. So come and meet those people, hang out with them. And yeah, Ben Greenfield.

I was hoping you weren't going to go the direction of a serial killer joke and say something like, it's not what's in your fridge, it's who's in your freezer. So thank you for clarifying. And on that note, folks, Thank you so much for listening. I really hope to see a lot of you in London in 2025. It's like September, what, 15th, 16th, something like that?

12th, VIP in the evening, 13th and 14th for the event.

Yeah. All right, cool. We'll see you there, folks. All right, Tim, thanks, dude.

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