The 55-Year-Old Mom Who Spends Just $106 Per Month On The Gym & Supplements Is Reversing Her Age Faster Than Biohackers & Tech Billionaires: Julie Gibson Clark

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast.

And I've just always been pretty careful about 8 hours of sleep. I think I learned that from my dad, and I just kind of have safeguarded it pretty much my whole life. But, uh, I wear a sleep mask, I do the mouth tape, I make sure I'm for the most part in bed by 9. Again, having a teenager, that makes it kind of hard, but in bed by 9, and then I'm probably lights out by 9:15, 9:30, and my alarm is set for 5, 5:15 depending on the day.

Fitness, nutrition, biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this.

If you're listening to my show, you probably have heard of longevity and anti-aging and age reversal before, But maybe you haven't heard of this thing called the Rejuvenation Olympics. It's like this leaderboard where people can submit the results of a test. It's a very cool test. It's called the Dundin Pace Test. And I won't go into all the details of it now, but basically these researchers followed people for years and years and they tested their blood and their grip strength and all these different markers of longevity. And then, via what's called a regression analysis, they basically dialed in one single blood test that could, with pretty good accuracy, measure your biological age or more appropriately your rate of aging. So, I've done this test. There's this whole leaderboard at Rejuvenation Olympics. And, a lot of the people who you might be familiar with in the anti-aging industry have done it. Bryan Johnson is probably the most prolific guy who's designed this advanced blueprint. I interviewed him about these crazy protocols and hundreds of supplements. But, what's really interesting to me is that he's not necessarily on the top of the list. There are other people up there. And, of course, Bryan Johnson is very impressive with what he does, but he spent $2 million on reducing his biological age. I think that's his annual investment. And there are some other people on there who are, I guess, perhaps using an approach that might be a little bit more relatable to the average person. And one of those people is my guest today, Julie Clark. So Julie, in, in an article that I read about her, was described as a 55-year-old. Did they get that right, Julie? I don't want to say you're 55 if you're not 55.

I'm 55. Yeah, nosedive into 60.

You don't look 55, but she's a 55-year-old single mom, makes less than $100K per year according to the article, but her aging rate is 0.665. That's impressive. That means for every 100 days, she's only aging 66 of those days. But unlike a lot of these tech billionaires, the article goes into how her routine is a lot more ordinary like $27 a month on a gym membership and $79 a month on one supplement and eating a wide variety of vegetables and produce and not necessarily following a myopic trendy diet, playing pickleball, hooray, walking, doing some strength training. So, I was so interested in this article that I thought, gosh, I should get Julie on the show to talk about, I guess, what might be considered a more reasonable approach to age extension and longevity than necessarily getting your child's blood injected into you or something like that. So, Julie, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Ben. I am so honored and quite frankly very excited to talk with everybody today. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, yeah. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. There's actually another guy in the leaderboard I'm going to interview too who's also got kind of a more regular approach, Dave Pascoe. But for you personally, I'm very interested. Have you been interested in longevity and age reversal for a while. I'm just curious what led you up to even considering submitting your blood to a leaderboard called the Rejuvenation Olympics.

Well, we could walk around a bit of a longer block if you don't mind because longevity, I only really heard about since 2017, but my interest in health and performance and nutrition, that was probably as early as, gosh, I was 8 or 9 years old. And then, we can get into the Rejuvenation Olympics and how I got into that a little bit later if that's okay.

Yeah, for sure.

We got time. Okay. So, I was a swimmer when I was younger. I think my older sister was a swimmer as well, so I started pretty young. She's 8 years older than me, so I think I was maybe 6, but somewhere around age 8, 9, my dad would go to my swim meets with me and he'd be like, okay, you've got the 100-meter fly coming up in 30 minutes. Let's give you X amount of a Snickers bar and you need the glycogen load for your muscles. I'm 8 or 9.

You're reminding me of You reminded me of me yesterday at my son's jiu-jitsu tournament. I'm standing there with a massage gun doing his thighs and giving him a little bar so he times it properly. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

So, that's totally my dad. But I did feel better in those races because obviously, I was practicing all week. But these races where I had the sugar in me or the "glycogen load," I was like, "Whoa, I can kind of really go faster. This is interesting." So, it just kind of impressed on me that there's some relationship between nutrition and performance. And then, just kind of watching him as I grew up. I mean, we're talking late '70s, early '80s. He's making smoothies and what I'd probably call protein lattes. We called them concoctions then. It was like, "Oh, Dad, what are you mixing up now?" And, he was reading newsletters on nutraceuticals and things. I mean, it was part of his career but not necessarily the focus. So, anyway, fast forward to my 30s, again, kind of considering myself somewhat healthy, but I had gone through a really stressful period, 36 months. I was married, divorced, I moved about 4 times, I left my career that I had gone to college for. I was an engineer. And, with not really knowing what I was going to do next, I had really bad acid reflux, extremely bad. What happened? I was told I had 2 lumps in my left breast and a man tried to kidnap me at knife point. I was just excessively stressed. I went to my doctor for the acid reflux and she said, "Well, why don't you just take an antacid every day and you'll be fine?" And, I was already on an antidepressant that she had prescribed and I just thought, "This doesn't seem right. I think there's a better way to fix this problem. Let me at least try." I was in Portland, Oregon at the time, so this is around 2000, and I went to see a naturopath to just see if they had any ideas for me. And sure enough, she said, well, you know, the first thing she said is get off all wheat and dairy. Oh, okay. So, 2 weeks later, acid reflux completely gone. I went to see her and she said, you know, we could probably help you get off that antidepressant if you were interested in trying. And I was kind of past all the things that, you know, preceded needing that. So, I thought, yeah, let's give it a try. And so, that was kind of the first time I was introduced to this idea of like nutraceuticals as a protocol and that they could help your brain and body. That was very successful and I went on to really kind of take my health very seriously from that point forward from age 30. So, fast forward to my 40s, I'm exhausted, my hair is falling out, and I'm thinking, "I work out every day. What I thought was a very healthy diet, a vegan diet, I was constantly researching nutrition and what to do." So, I was really mystified as to why I felt so horrible. And so, I went to see— a friend of mine had said, "You should probably go get tested for heavy metals." So, she had a doctor who was like more— it wasn't called functional medicine doctor at that time, but she was basically practicing functional medicine and tested me for heavy metals. And sure enough, those were like— there was just tons. I mean, everything from tungsten to lead to mercury to all kinds of— so that's, you know, was clear that that was what was causing the issue. I went through chelation therapy, probably about 15 rounds of chelation therapy. And, somewhere around round 6, it was because you do them on a weekly basis, somewhere around week 6, I remember driving home and it was like this fog had lifted from me. And, I thought, "There really is something to what she's doing." I mean, obviously, I could see that the metals were kind of coming down to healthier levels. Yeah.

And, by the way, for people who might not know chelation therapy, what would an average session of chelation therapy look like?

So, I would sit in a chair. It was an IV therapy with— and I'm going to get this wrong. I don't know if it was EDTA or— I think it was EDTA, not DMPS. There's two chelators. And so, that was day 1. And then, the very next day because it chelates out all your minerals, so you have to go back and then have them replace all your minerals the next day.

Right. This isn't like a DIY take EDTA at home type of detox. You got to be careful with those type of things.

In fact, I have a— I won't get into the story, but definitely please do not do this on your own. You have to do this with a doctor who's monitoring all your different levels. And, because I kind of went sideways at one point, it really caused some hormone imbalances. And, that was just in one session with one day. How it kind of went off. So definitely do not do this without the help of a doctor, for sure. So at any rate, I— that's when I really— and she was also looking at my blood and saying, you know, this vegan diet is not helping you. And so again, nothing wrong with that diet, it just was not for my body and my genetics. So that's when I really kind of started taking things seriously. And once we got all the metals down to kind of quote-unquote safe levels, there was still a lot of them. I mean, you know, and I just kept thinking, isn't there like a cumulative effect of having so many different ones? So, I thought, well, enough, you know, chelation therapy, let me start just kind of naturally detoxing, looking at what are natural chelators and started researching it. And, that's kind of when the ball really started rolling. My dad was an astronaut on Skylab 3. And, this is like, you know, you got to go back to like 19, what, mid-'60s. And up until that point, the space program had always been like, you know, military guys. And they placed an ad, my mom found it in the newspaper, that NASA was looking for scientists for their next mission. And this was the Skylab mission. So 2,000 guys applied, and of those 2,000, 3 made it, and one was my dad. And he was just, you know, a scientist. He wasn't military. He wasn't, although he was on the football team, probably in high school and college, but he wasn't like a military fighter pilot or anything like that. So, he was always really into his health and performance. And, I think that's where the motivation came from that we were always told, "You could do whatever you want, be whatever you want, you just got to work for it." Okay.

So, you did the metal detox and then you started doing your own stuff.

Yeah. I started just because now the internet is a thing and I'm like, looking up detox, I find the work of Dr. Klinghardt. He's up in Washington.

I don't know if you've— Yeah, Dietrich Klinghardt. He's great.

Yeah, he is great. And then Russell Blaylock, Mercola, and then from Mercola, all his different people that he would have on and I would go and read their books. So, again, fast forward, I learn about fasting through— well, I was following the AIP diet. AIP kind of led me to Rhonda Patrick.

AIP, autoimmune paleo.

Correct. Yeah, because my family, my mom's family has quite a bit of autoimmune diseases, so I thought, let me follow that, and which is so restrictive. But at any rate, eventually was led to— was it Jason Fung's fasting? And then when I heard about the fasting mimicking diet, I thought, well, this sounds great because I can actually eat a little bit, you know. So Valter Longo's fasting mimicking diet, and that's what the first time I heard about longevity and then started like, ooh, what is this? How can I be healthier, you know, have a completely healthy lifespan? So, you know, eventually found David Sinclair and then I learned about senolytics, which again, I thought, oh, that sounds like, you know, detoxing zombie cells, detoxing. Let's do that. You know, that sounds interesting. So, that led me to, I don't, I'm going to maybe mispronounce this, fisetin, that ingredient fisetin.

Yeah, yeah, fisetin, fisetin, tomato, tomato.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, I started researching that. And, in the process of researching that, I learned about this company called NOVOS and the product. When I researched their product and all the different ingredients, I was like, "Oh, these are other things I'm reading about, glycine and rhodiola." And, I was already taking magnesium.

And, NOVOS is— I think I mentioned before on a show, N-O-V-O-S. They actually have a what I would consider to be pretty good longevity tests, the NOVOS Age. And then, they've got— yeah, it's a supplement that covers a lot of the bases that you would expect for anti-senescence, for longevity, et cetera. I actually have some in my pantry. They have a powder and then they have a capsule, correct?

Yeah, yeah. So, the capsule is NMN and the powder is a mix of different nutraceuticals. So, yeah. And again, I just want to tell everyone out there, I don't work for them, I don't influence for them. Receive, you know, they're not paying for this podcast. I just want to be very clear because I think when something's really good, I think people should know about it. And so, they were kind of a startup at the time. And so, when I was ordering it, they asked if I wanted to be part of a study. So, that's kind of how I found my way to the Rejuvenation Olympics because they said, "Well, as part of the study, we're going to take your blood and take a look at— I honestly at the time didn't understand what they were measuring, but— and they wouldn't give me my score at zero. So they did— I think I measured at zero and then 6 months and 12 months. And at zero, they wouldn't tell me what my score was, you know, just as a study participant, I guess.

I don't know.

So I have no idea. And I didn't really think of anything about it. I just wanted to see if there was a difference. So at month 6, it had They gave me both scores and then that's when they asked me if I wanted to be uploaded into the Rejuvenation Olympics. And then, we continued for another 6 months.

Were you surprised when you saw your results compared to, like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people who are spending a lot of money and doing some pretty crazy things?

Right. Okay. So, I'm just going to apologize to Bryan Johnson right here. I did not know who Bryan Johnson was at the time. More like— because when it— he— I think he started it. I don't know. When it first came out, there was only— I don't know, there wasn't tons of us. And I just was like, what is this? This is so interesting. People just like me that, you know, geek out on health. And because for anybody who hasn't gotten on there, you get to see people's pace of aging, also their change from when they started to, you know, where they are now, and the protocol they're using. And that's the thing that I was most interested in was like oh, we can now look at how different protocols are impacting different people. I wasn't so much interested in like, I have this score versus somebody else. It was just, what is the total difference from beginning to, you know, 6 months, 12 months?

Yeah.

One point, you know. So that was the part that was most interesting. It wasn't until I think, you know, the Fortune article that people— like, I was kind of like, oh, this is sort of a big deal and learned about Bryan Johnson and really what he was doing, which I think is pretty cool. I just wish it wasn't just an N of 1. I wish we could get 100 people doing what he's doing and be able to study it.

Yeah. And, even then, there's the biochemical individuality and the genetics, the fact that a lot of what he does is still going to be specific to him as is the case with you or me. A lot of this stuff is based on genetic individuality and your response. I did want to ask you that. As far as genetics go, I do a lot of stuff at least relative to the general population when it comes to health and longevity. My wife does not. And, I still, not that I want to manifest this, but I joke with my wife that she's probably going to be around for 20 years after I kick the can just because she's this hard Montana rancher genetic profile and all of her grandparents live to 90-plus. And, She barely works out and stays super fit. And, every time she does blood work, it comes back and it's perfect even though she barely uses any supplements. And so, I'm curious with you, do you have a genetic profile in your family in general, especially maternally of long-lived people?

I think so. So, my maternal grandfather— my maternal grandmother died before I was born. She had lupus, so that's thus the AIP. Protocol and autoimmune diseases all over that side of the family. But, my maternal grandfather, I mean, he smoked, drank, and was living well into his 80s. So, I'm sure there's some genetics there. My mom is 80, I think she'll be 85 this year. She does have Parkinson's, but I would not consider her somebody— she wasn't following my dad's program, that's for sure. She wasn't exercising, lifting weights, eating the concoctions, any of that stuff.

Yeah, but the mere fact that they're in their mid-80s, that's beyond the general population when it comes to longevity.

Yeah, yeah. And, only recently developing Parkinson's. So, yeah. And, I have my genetic— I think it's Livewello, I can't remember, but I had run a report on longevity. Yeah. And, I do have, I think how many, it was 4 different SNPs that indicate longevity and then 8 more that are just normal life, but I don't have anything for a shorter lifespan.

Ben Greenfield: Now, based on that genetics testing, have you— because when I tested, for example, I have higher than normal risk for colon cancer, so I prioritize things like careful with how much red meat I take in, my fiber intake. I do a coffee enema every week. So, there are certain things I do for colonic health or for diabetes. I have a higher than normal risk for type 2 diabetes, so I'm cognizant of carbohydrate intake, I wear a blood glucose monitor, et cetera. For you, did you find things on your genetic test that have influenced the way that you live your life or how you eat?

Yeah. I didn't go too deep into it. I did notice I've got that MTHFR gene, but what was interesting is that too much folic acid or, what do you say, methylfolate doesn't necessarily help me. And, if I look dug a little deeper, there was something about taking a lot of choline. So, I fix it more with choline than the methylfolate. I still take methylfolate, I just don't take the high doses. Every time I take a high dose, I tend to get very, very anxious.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah. And, it's really more synthetic folic acid and fortified cereals and grains where— and a lot of common, say, energy drinks, for example, where you see the label and it says folic acid, not necessarily 5-MTHF or a natural form of methylfolate that you need to worry about. But yeah, I mean, certain people need to prioritize choline intake, organ meat intake, et cetera. I'm what would be called homozygous for the MTHFR gene. So, I also have to pay attention to that slightly sluggish pathway. Is there anything else that you pay attention to on your genes?

I haven't dug too deep into it quite honestly. I just don't understand it as much. I would love to work with somebody and develop a diet, somebody who knows all that stuff and would help me figure out exactly what I need to be eating. Not that I would eat that way 24/7. And, we can get into my diet here, but I just—

I was going to say, I'm sure everybody's wondering, how does this gal eat? And, I should also mention, by the way, I'm going to take notes and put them all at BenGreenfieldLife.com/JulieClark. If you want the show notes there, BenGreenfieldLife.com/JulieClark. So, What's your diet look like?

Gosh, let's see. I'm kind of switching it up just recently, but what it's been for a long time is I don't usually eat until about 10:00. So, I usually get up and work out first thing in the morning and I don't usually eat until about 10:00. And that is usually greens. I just do kind of some kind of powdered green drink first.

When you say powdered green drink, you mean one of those done-for-you like Organifi or Athletic Greens or something like that?

Yeah, something like that. Sometimes I add some maca to it. I was doing a lot of moringa too, but I think it was messing with my thyroid. So, I'm just taking a little break. I was also doing a whole tablespoon a day with lemon and greens and just having some sluggish issues and I thought, I think this might be messing with my thyroid.

Yeah. So, some of those including moringa, they're kind of what would be called goitrogenic, right? Interfere with thyroid function in high amounts.

Yeah, exactly. So, I thought, "I'll just take a break, but I'll go back to it. I think it's a good product." But, at any rate, yeah. And then, at some point a little bit later than that after I've kind of digested that, I'll go and make either a concoction as we would call them, a green latte, and in the winter at least. So, that's usually bone broth, greens, and it's a great recipe actually. There is a doctor out there, Kara Fitzgerald, and she wrote a program called Younger You. Yeah, and she has a better broths and healing stews or something. I'm gonna miss— we'll get it in the show notes, the name of it, because she's got a sweet latte in there, and I swear it's just like every time I make it, I'm like, this is a cup of Christmas. I could just like drink it every day, which I do. You know, here it gets hot in the summer, so like right now we're just in that shift, you know, where it's getting warmer, and I— the last thing I want to do is have a hot latte. So, I start making smoothies. I made a smoothie yesterday. So, it's pretty much the same stuff, it's just mixed up with frozen fruit, still some greens. And, I cook my greens, again, worrying about those goitrogens. I cook all the greens ahead of time and then just put a little bit. And, it's really easy to get. So, I'll put about 4 ounces of greens in there and that's nothing. So, that's the morning.

And, can I ask you a quick question about the fasting? You know, I've talked about this before and I'm just curious your take on it or if you've thought about this at all that for females, particularly premenopausal females to do long bouts of fasting seems to downregulate some of the hormones responsible for, say, fertility or muscle maintenance or bone density. Chispeptin is one, for example. And then, in postmenopausal females, it's kind of the same as guys around a 12- to 16-hour daily intermittent fast versus more of a recommended 10 to 12-hour for premenopausal females. So, for you, for the fasting protocol, hopefully I'm not getting too personal here, but are you postmenopausal or perimenopausal?

Yeah. No, I've been postmenopausal for a long time. Unfortunately, I probably hit that a bit early too. So, I don't know. I mean, it felt early.

Right. Yeah. So, that 30-year-old lean active female listening in don't necessarily mimic Julie's exact protocol from a fasting standpoint. But, especially once you reach postmenopausal status, it's a longevity strategy. And then, oddly enough, premenopausal, it can kind of backfire on you.

Yeah, exactly. And then, that's kind of the thing I'm sort of changing up a little now because— and we'll get into this— but I'm trying to get whatever the 100 grams of protein a day. And I just quite frankly find it very hard if I have that short window to get that much. So, I'm sort of looking at maybe I should start just having a protein shake or something right after the workout. That would just add another 20, 30 grams of protein quite easily without messing things up too much, I think.

Ben Greenfield: And 100 grams, I mean, it depends on your weight, but technically, I was just talking with Gabrielle Lyon about this. That podcast comes out this week. It's 1 gram per pound of lean muscle. So, if you weigh, let's say, 200 pounds and you're 20% body fat, you're still looking at, what, 140 grams of protein, right, which is well above 100, you know, depending on your size and your body weight, of course.

Yeah. So I'm 130 pounds, so I know I'm supposed to be shooting for 130, but I'm like, it just feels impossible. Well, not—

no, not necessarily 130 because it's a gram per pound of lean mass, so you'd, you'd be less than 130. Yeah, so, so probably around 100 is, is a decent target for Yeah, 95.9.

95.9 is my lean muscle tissue.

Yeah, yeah.

So around 100.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so I'm kind of looking at trying that. I am always experimenting and fine-tuning. I'm sure your listeners are always doing that as well. So anyway, so back to the diet. Noon, I go downstairs and I'll grab a bowl of vegetables, and that's anywhere from 6 to 10 ounces of veggies. Because again, this goes back to the paleo days. I don't know if you ever remember that book Well Fed. I can't remember the author's name, but such a great cookbook. And, she was always talking about, "You gotta eat your veggies. You gotta eat your veggies." And, I thought, "Yeah, she's right. You gotta eat your veggies." So, I just kind of started doing that then and I became kind of addicted to celery and other things.

Sure. Plants are going to kill you, but you got to eat your veggies.

Yeah. You got to be careful, I suppose. But anyway, so that's always varying what's in there. I always try to throw a few olives in there too for the salt and the fats. And then also just some source of protein. So, some days I'm just cooking up chicken breasts, which quite honestly get, you know, old after a while. So, maybe it's just, I hate to say it, but some cheese sometimes for the calcium. Other times it's just something leftover from the night before, but kind of focusing more on the protein, not so much carbs at that point.

And, by the way, I definitely wouldn't be embarrassed about the cheese. Fermented dairy, hard artisanal cheeses, a lot of these are superstars of many longevity-based diets. So, besides lactose intolerance, which often with fermented dairy like yogurts and kefirs becomes a moot point because the lactose sugar is broken down or the lactose sugar is broken down, I definitely wouldn't have qualms about dairy being on a healthy diet.

Yeah. And sometimes it's just a bowl of, what is it, goat milk yogurt. The regular yogurt doesn't, the cow's milk, I don't know, it's just not working for me these days and it's tend to get a little backed up.

Yeah. That's pretty common. I did a podcast on goat versus cow back in the day with a goat farmer. And, it's the protein thermodynamics, the size of the protein, and also the lower levels naturally of lactose in goat dairy products that often make them. Like me, I can't do cow's dairy very well. I'll get bloating. Whenever I have ice cream, it's coconut or goat milk or something like that. But yeah, that's pretty common.

Yeah, yeah. And I love the flavor of it. So, that might be my protein. And then, I don't eat again until about 5:30, 6 o'clock when I make dinner. And that is a mixed bag because I've got a teenager and I want us to have a dinner that both of us will enjoy. So, some days that's pizza, some days that's pasta. We don't do a lot of pasta in this house, but it's I'm always finding something. I love, love, love to cook. Yeah, I just kind of make it healthy. I mean, we even fry food. I mean, I just use healthy oils and I've even rendered my own beef tallow. In fact, I wouldn't recommend it. Stinks really bad.

But anyway, what about pizza with the teenager? Are you actually choosing like a healthy pizza or making your own pizza or you just take one for the team and order now?

No, no, we make— but I should back up, like, you know, so I'm really strict 5 days a week. Very, very strict. And I learned this from my Italian friends. I used to live in Dubai. And, I had this Italian friend who was older than me and looked much younger than me, believe it or not. And, I just thought, "My God, what are you doing?" And, it was like just she was very careful. There was a lot of fasting. She was very careful during the week. And then, it was the weekends, enjoy. Have a nice dinner with your family, but have a little less on the weekdays. And then, on the weekends, kind of enjoy yourself. And, I don't go eating a box of donuts or anything like that by enjoying, but A couple weekends ago, we made cinnamon rolls, but I try to make it myself. I don't like Krispy Kreme. I don't like— I don't like even— my son doesn't really even like the taste of fast food. I mean, In-N-Out Burger, yes, but the rest, no.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm similar. I probably average once a week out to a restaurant and I don't have the "I'm allergic to seed oils" card that I bring with me and I have a cocktail. And I'm still careful. I'm not ordering a bunch of fried calamari and having burgers and fries. I'm typically makes maybe the roast chicken or the steak or the fish. But yeah, typically, that meal is enjoyed with a lot of people. It's very social. There's some evidence that there's almost a protective effect of eating in a parasympathetic state with people even if the food's not 100% on the healthy scale. And so, yeah, I do think that— I'm not one of those guys who says you got to live a little, don't deprive your kids of McDonald's. And Chuck E. Cheese's, but I am okay with going out and enjoying a nice meal at a restaurant that a lot of people would still consider to be healthy if they saw what I order off the menu. But yeah, I agree, at least once a week having something where you kind of let your hair down is a decent idea.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's important. And, I thought it was funny you were talking about eating with other people and the parasympathetic. I just remember my friends in Dubai were always shocked that because at this point, this was when I was much younger. I didn't have my son at that point. And they're like, "Well, who do you eat with at night?" And I said, "Well, I just kind of grab something and eat it over the sink." And they were just horrified that that's how I was taking care of myself, that I didn't sit down with friends. And so, this is really important. I think the rest of the world, that really matters. They're not eating by themselves.

Even when I travel a lot of times or when my kids are gone and my wife's gone, I'll still set things up, put on a nice YouTube show. I'll watch Alone or Naked and Afraid or I like cooking shows like MasterChef or just a cooking YouTube channel like Joshua Weissman or Guga Foods. And, I still set things up so that I'm not working during dinner. It's kind of a nice little party by myself even if I'm on my own because as you know and as you've alluded to, just eating hunched over emails is a bad way to feel full adequately and to digest the food properly. So, yeah, it's important even if you're alone.

Yeah, yeah. I don't do that. I do eat while I'm working for lunch, but at night, yeah, it's definitely a sit-down kind of thing.

Yeah, that's a good point though. I do that too, Julie, for lunch. So, I save my more reactive work for lunch or replying to some emails. But I never schedule a phone call or jump into a deep edit on a book chapter. So, it's basically I get to choose my pace of work during lunch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah. And so then, I don't really eat much after that. Sometimes I have some berries. Last night, I had blueberries. I was craving some. I knew we had jelly beans in the house because we're going to have Easter here soon. So, I was like, "Oh, I want some of those." But I thought, "No, I'm going to keep the sugar to a minimum. I'm noticing with menopause, like, I just can't seem to have sugar at night. It really causes some hot flashes and things. So, I just— in fact, I've been using your— what is the apple cider vinegar? So, like, if I eat kind of a little too late, I had heard about it. I think it was in your book or one of your podcasts or Boundless. I can't remember, but I thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to try this. And sure enough, it was like sleep like a champ because my blood sugar wasn't going so high.

I wanted to ask you, and then this actually gives me a good idea of your diet, right? You're eating a diet, wide variety of vegetables, plants, herbs, spices. You're mindful of eating in a parasympathetic state. You're engaging in some element of fasting or calorie restriction. But besides the NOVO supplement, some of these greens powders, do you do anything else like digestive enzymes or probiotics or anything along those lines?

Yeah. So, as part of my work when I had the heavy metals and things, so I had learned I'm pretty much chronically deficient in magnesium. And, I don't know, maybe that's in my genetics, I have no idea, or maybe that's just what everybody is. So, I have been taking magnesium for years. I mean, something like— I'm trying to think, it must be 400 to 600 milligrams a day throughout the day. Fish oil, I've always been taking ever since my 40s, and vitamin D3, K2 as well, and a B complex. I've been taking that for over a decade, 15 years now. So, long before I started NOVO. So, maybe that's where the score of 75% came from. I don't know.

Yeah. We got to bust Fortune Magazine. Maybe it's a little bit more than $79 a month on supplements, but you're not swallowing 100 capsules a morning.

Right. I would be doing those whether— I'm not doing that for longevity. I'm doing that so I literally just can function. If I don't have the magnesium, I just start crashing.

And those, those really are some of the fundamentals, right? Creatine, vitamin D, magnesium, good greens powder, and some fish oil, right? Like, those are kind of like— I almost consider those to be base foundational parts of the diet. Not— I mean, they are supplements, but they're really just like the natural stuff that works that isn't that expensive in the long run.

Yeah, yeah. I don't take— I experiment with creatine and had like half my hair fall out. So I know people say it doesn't do that, but it definitely— like, it was not, it was not a good experience for me hair-wise.

Yeah, you can look that up. Like, if you upload your data to SelfDecode or Genetic Genie, you can see if you have the genetics that cause hair loss. And I think it's about 20% of people can experience that.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought I just went off of that and let's see what else. I think I wrote them all down. So let me make sure I'm accurate about this. Yeah. So that's, you know, it's magnesium, vitamin D3, fish oil, B complex. That's what I've been taking for pretty much decades. Then I added the Novos and their, you know, their core and their boost. So the Novos core is people can look up what's in there. But, and then the boost is NMN. Before, at one, at some point before NOVOS, I was experimenting with NR and I just, I did it for a little bit and I felt pretty good, but then I quickly switched to NOVOS and started taking their NMN. And then, but I've kind of pulled the NM out and I'm experimenting with NR again. And I hate to, because I know there's a big debate about this, but I think I feel better on NR than I do NMN.

Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit of a silly debate, I think largely driven by commercialization. NAD, NR, NMN, oral consumption, you're still going to get some cellular delivery. NMN might make it into hypothalamus and the brain a little bit easier. It's still a good idea to do occasional IVs or transdermal patches or even suppositories for a higher dose if you're sleep deprived, if you're inflamed, if you want to top off your levels as you age a little bit. But in the long run, all you're doing is elevating levels of niacinamide in some way to increase NAD availability. And I mean, if you had to, you could even go with dirt cheap niacinamide. But I think what you just alluded to is a pretty good idea. Try NAD, try NR, try NMN, see which one you feel best on or see which one results in the lowest levels of inflammation or the best results on an aging test. And, you know, some of it is pretty subjective.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it was like— it's not like— I want people to know this— like, it's not like you are like, "Woo, I have a ton of energy, like I just drank like 10 cups of coffee," or anything like that. It's just that it like almost raises the floor. So say like the first 6 months of that, the NOVOS test, I was in a, yet again, a very, very stressful period. I mean, I hate to say it, but almost a parent's worst nightmare. So, the only thing I was doing, and I think that's what people should know, is this magnesium D3, fish oil, B complex always, and the NOVOS. My workouts were haphazard. I was barely meditating. I was definitely not sleeping. I mean, I would go 3 days without sleep. But, that's when I noticed I wasn't so tired. Before, I would lose 1 night of sleep and I couldn't function the next day. Here, I'm going 3 days because of stress and everything. It's like that floor was raised, and I just notice with NR, it's like raises that floor a little bit higher than NMN. Again, that's somewhat subjective, but that's how it feels.

How's sleep now, particularly as you age? Because obviously, as melatonin decreases, a lot of people, they sleep less as they age. I'm curious what that looks like for you, and if you do anything in particular to prioritize sleep. You obviously understand it's important, so I'm curious what you do.

Yeah, and I've been like that my whole life. I mean, again, being a swimmer, you got to be in the pool for practice at 5 AM. So even In high school, it's like nobody had told me to go to bed. I was in bed and asleep by 9:00 PM every night. Not that I didn't go out on the weekends, but, you know. And, I've just always been pretty careful about 8 hours of sleep. I think I learned that from my dad and I just kind of have safeguarded it pretty much my whole life. I mean, I go out and have fun and everything, but it was like, "Got to get your 8." So now, I wear a mask. I can't black out my room enough. Just given our house. But, I wear a sleep mask, I do the mouth tape, I make sure I'm for the most part in bed by 9:00. Again, having a teenager, that makes it kind of hard, but in bed by 9:00 and then I'm probably lights out by 9:15, 9:30, and my alarm is set for 5:00, 5:15 depending on the day.

Ben Greenfield: Yeah, that's good. By the way, I do the sleep mask even though I have blackout curtains. It's interesting. They actually did a study on this. It was It was pretty recent like last year. The pressure of the sleep mask against the face regardless of how much light it blocks can help with relaxation the same way that a gravity blanket or kind of a heavy pillow on your chest for a lot of people, that's very comforting, it's very soothing. And, a sleep mask kind of does the same thing for the face. They even have weighted sleep masks now, they're kind of gravity sleep masks. And so, it's not just about blocking the light, it's actually the pressure against the face. Isn't that interesting?

That is interesting because it makes sense because last night I was going to sleep and I realized I couldn't really just turn out. I realized, "Oh, I didn't put my mask on." I put it on, right to sleep. So yeah, there's got to be something to that for sure.

You got to try this little device called a Sensate. It vibrates on your chest. That thing knocks me out on a plane. It turns the vagus nerve to the collarbone in your chest. It vibrates kind of like that Apollo vibrating device, but unlike the Apollo, it syncs to music that's on the Sensate app. I swear by it. All my friends who I have try mine when they come over to my house, they're like, "I got to get one of these things" because they're inexpensive and they're a game changer for sleep on an airplane. Do you use any of these other kind of, I guess, technologies, PEMF and hyperbaric and red light? Do you ever implement any of those?

So, I don't want to say I experimented with HBOT, but My son, when he was kind of going through things, we learned he had a TBI when he was a baby. So, we were working on that with him. So, we giving him HBOT sessions and I thought, "Oh, let me try that." But I've done a few sessions. It was cool. I mean, I'd love to have one in my house and just do my daily meditation on that. So yeah, I don't do any of the light or any of that kind of stuff.

Ben Greenfield: This is interesting for anyone who wants a done-for-you complete Biohacked home. I am selling my entire tricked-out house located on 8.5 acres of forested land in Spokane, Washington. It includes a guest house, pool house, barn, whole setup for garden, goats, chickens, herbs, fire pit, along with a ton of biohacking goodies, the air, the light, The water, the electricity is all completely tricked out for optimized human biology. The highest quality air filtration systems, natural lighting friendly to circadian rhythms, low EMF, dirty electricity filters, EMF blocking equipment throughout, built to be off-grid when necessary with buried propane and solar grid, toxin-free and low VOC construction materials, the most advanced water filtration systems one can find, a massive vegetable garden, greenhouse, herb garden, outdoor fire pit, goat and chicken grazing pasture and barn, all in a beautiful forest that's about 25 minutes from the airport and 20 minutes from downtown. This can all be yours if you're looking for a place to get away in a safe natural area and you're looking for the best of the best biohacks done for you. Here's where you can go to check it out and to fill out a form with your interest, biohacktspokanehome.com. That's biohacktspokanehome.com. Check it out.

And, by the way, that's surprising. You would be an anomaly in kind of the biohacking longevity industry just based on the fact that you don't have an elaborate morning routine that involves 8 different devices.

No, no, I do not. It's called get out of bed and get your happy butt over to the gym.

Okay, well, I do want to— I do want to talk about that. I want to talk about the gym. Do you still swim, or what's the— what's the exercise routine look like?

Some days I swim, but I don't know, I just like— swimming is so boring. I mean, I look like I'm convinced I'm good at math because of swimming, because I'd sit there and go, like, I've got 20 laps, I gotta do 40. Okay, that's half, you know what I mean? You're gonna like sit there and do all the math in my head as swimming. Anyway, so no, I don't do that anymore. I just, I like going to the gym, but I really don't love working out. I just, I like going for the sauna. So I joined the gym for the sauna, and I usually wake up in the morning thinking, I'm not going to do my workout. I'm just going to go, I'm going to have a sauna, and that'll be kind of my cardiovascular for the day. But as soon as I walk in, I'm like, okay, you got to do like one set of something. So my routine is usually Mondays. I kind of switched it up since the Fortune article, and I'm always kind of experimenting. I kind of switch it up either between 6 months or 12 months. So now, I'm doing a full-body workout. Let's see. Monday is actually VO2 max because I figure I kind of got a lot of, back to my dad, glycogen in my muscles from eating extra stuff over the weekend. So, Monday, first thing, I do the VO2 max and I do a Norwegian 4x4.

That's the classic, yeah, 4 minutes hard, 4 minutes easy, 4 times through.

Yeah. I do 3 minutes easy, 4 minutes hard. I do that 4 times through and then just 2 minutes really easy. And Monday is usually abs as well. So, I'll do those two, then I jump in the sauna, then I take a cold shower. And people have asked me this, so I'll mention it. My cold shower is as cold as I can get it in Arizona, which in the winter is actually cold and it's about 4 to 5 solid minutes. And, I wash my hair. I do everything I'm supposed to do in the shower but just in the cold. And, most days I don't want to do it, but it feels really good once— it's like a natural antidepressant for sure that, I don't know, it's like a dopamine curve apparently that lasts pretty long. So, yeah. So, that's Monday. Tuesday is a full-body workout.

Okay. I was going to ask you how long you average at the gym each day with these workouts.

Yeah, it varies. So, that Norwegian 4x4, I mean, that's 35 minutes, 30 minutes for that, 5 minutes for abs. I stretch too. Some days I forget, but stretch and then the sauna is 30 minutes and showers 5 minutes.

So, maybe in and out, all done, a little over an hour or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, on Monday. So Tuesday, I do a full body weight workout, and I do Tuesdays with free weights, and I do it at a different gym that doesn't have a sauna. So, we've got like a gym in my neighborhood, and it's just a little less crowded. It's easier to kind of get everything done. They've got, you know, all the equipment. So, I do a full body that, and that probably takes me a solid hour, but I'm doing, you know, step-ups and all kinds of other things to so I don't have to do cardio on top of the weights. And, I'm just messing around with all kinds of different stuff every day. I don't really have any routine except for to just get the upper body really well, get the lower body, and I try to just kind of mix it up. So, that's Tuesday. And then, Wednesday is just abs and I do just a Zone 2 cardio. And, it just depends on when my first meeting is that day. So, sometimes it's 20 minutes, sometimes it's 30, sometimes it's 45. And, I'm always working out on either a step mill or I sometimes use an elliptical trainer.

And is that fasted or is this after your green?

No, fasted. Yeah, fasted. Yeah, fasted. I cannot work out on a full stomach at all or anything.

Yeah, I did one the other afternoon because I had a house guest and he wanted to work out. And yeah, 2 hours after lunch and I'm burping stuff up. I have my best workouts fasted in the morning. Sometimes some ketones or some aminos if it's going to be a hard one, but that's about it.

Yeah, I haven't tried the ketones yet. It sounds really interesting. I, I do— I am experimenting with pre-workout. My son kind of got me into this, so I've been using this. Of course, like, he wanted to get the kind of unhealthy pre-workout. I'm like, no, no, no, we're getting the healthy stuff, you know. So I ordered something from like a nutraceutical company. I don't know. Anyway, um, we didn't really talk about it, but like my morning routine, I do get up in the morning and drink green tea and pray. That's kind of my quiet time. But, I don't drink coffee, I just cannot have a lot of caffeine. So, when I do pre-workout, I'm like, "Whoa!" So, the VO2 max day, I'll take a pre-workout. And then, Monday and Tuesday basically pre-workout and then sometimes on Saturday. Okay. So, let's go back. So, Monday VO2 max, Tuesday full-body workout, Wednesday just kind of zone 2 cardio, Thursday is zone 2 cardio, Somewhere between Thursday, Friday, or Saturday, I'll do another full body workout, but I'm in the gym and I'm using like all the machines, you know, just things that kind of, I don't know, honestly limit your range of motion, you know, different. So, and that's not as intense, but I definitely like enjoy the leg presses and various things that they have there. So I'm doing another full body workout either Thursday, Friday, or Saturday. Lately it's been Saturday because my son likes to go with me and he works out. And I'll do pre-workout with that one as well. But the others, so Thursday, Friday, I'll do zone 2 cardio and then nothing on Sunday.

Like nothing, nothing? You don't go on a walk or anything like that?

I've been getting into this rucking. And I don't really have the rucksack or anything like that, but I just grab my backpack and I have this old cookbook from 1977, which is Gourmet. It's basically a year's worth of magazines in one book. So, I put that in there. I think it weighs 7 pounds. And then, last weekend, I put in another. So yeah, I'll just go for a walk or the weather's beautiful here and the hiking is gorgeous. So, I go out hiking. It just depends on how much time I have and what's going on.

Ben Greenfield: Now, you mentioned kind of a change-up here. You mentioned that part of your morning routine is prayer. And obviously, spirituality primarily intrinsic religiosity, right, having some kind of a moral code, belief in a higher power, prayer, dependency on some external source of strength, the sense of purpose, these are all things that seem to play into longevity as well including some of Buettner's work on the blue zones. What's that look like for you as far as your spiritual life?

Yeah, I'm pretty solid with God, that's for sure. And, it was I was always very— I was raised Lutheran, and it was, to be quite honest, like, you know, my uncle was the minister, so we had to go to church every— and I was just always kind of like, what is this? And it was kind of boring. And, you know, kids would be talking about, well, the God's up there, and I'm thinking, well, my dad's been there. Like, there's no God. There's no guy with a blue robe up in space, you know? Like, that's not happening. So I was kind of a skeptic, you know, my whole life. And then I started following Buddhism in high school, and love, you know, meditating and things. And then it was somewhere I was in— I was deployed. I wasn't a soldier. I worked with the military for the newspaper for the military with Stars and Stripes. But I was in Doha, Qatar, and I just thought I'll go to a— I went to a Catholic service and I just— it was like, oh, I could hear what Jesus was saying through like all I had learned about Buddha. I was like, oh, that's what Buddha was saying. That's what Buddha was saying. It just was really intriguing to me. And then of course, I was living in Europe, um, around that time as well, and going to all the cathedrals. And that was like the place that just always felt really, um, not only inspiring but like calming and peaceful for me. And, um, my ex-husband and my, you know, my son's dad wanted me to raise him Catholic. So, um, as he went through his, um, catechism, I decided to do mine too. And it really it was kind of— came at it from a very logical, reasonable— maybe it's worth people understanding. I was kind of just always searching for a set of practices because I think like many people, you know, I just knew that there's something bigger out there. And every time I remember what that, you know, that feeling of like, oh yeah, there's something bigger than just me and like this daily life out there, that's kind of driving force of all of us, like that life force or the Force as they talk about in Star Wars. I just wanted a set of practices that would remind me of that on some kind of daily basis. And I just, I looked at, you know, I looked at what are the practices of Judaism, what are the practices of Islam, what are the practices of Buddhism, what are, you know, and the place that I just always kept returning to was the Catholic Church. And it just felt so, um, I don't know, just felt like home to me. And that the practices for me felt, they felt comfortable and I could finally hear them after having studied Buddhism. So that just has been important to me ever since. And I did the whole Bible in a Year a couple of years ago, and it was the right, you know, right when I needed it, when I was going through some stressful stuff. And then I did my— I redid my catechism, like Catechism in a Year last year. And, you know, I'm not— I'm a cafeteria Catholic. But anyway, that's very important to me. And so every morning I read a little bit from the Bible. I'm reading the Gospels right now and just sit and kind of pray. And, yeah, and I'm at Mass, I'd say, 3 weeks out of 4.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. For me, it's Bible in a Year every morning, the one, Bibleinyear.org with Nikki and Pippa Gimbel. And so, that takes about 15 to 20 minutes to read. There's some different prayers that you do. As you're reading. There's an audio version, but sometimes if I put on the audio, I wind up walking around and doing stuff and not focusing as much and not stopping to say the prayers along with them. So, I like to do it. My best time is before I get out of bed in the morning because then it's just I do it. And then, later on, we all meet as a family at 7:00 a.m. in the living room and we read more Bible and we pray together and we talk for a little while as a family. And then, we have little prayer breaks throughout the day like before breakfast, before lunch, before dinner, and then at night, we all gather in my kids' room and we pray and we read the Bible again. And then, my wife and I go to bed and we pray again together. So, I've kind of woven it. Even the Bible says, "Pray without ceasing." And, that doesn't mean you're just— I'm not praying right now, but the idea of weaving that into your life the same way as you would exercise or healthy eating, for me, it's probably— I mean, it is the most important It's the one thing that I know even if I completely lose my entire body from the neck down, I can sit there and become stronger and more encouraged and happier just reading the Bible and praying. It's underrated and you don't do it as a hack to live a long time, you do it because it's good for loving God and loving other people. But, there's certainly some crossover there as far as just how you feel and your general satisfaction. And fulfillment every day.

Well, I think, I mean, especially too, you know, if we're looking at longevity, say, you know, and you asked me this and we'll get to that, but, you know, say you want to, you're going to live 100, 125 years. I don't, you know, life is hard. It's thrown me some really, you know, some serious curveballs. And you got to have your why and your like bigger push. I mean, like I had depression, you know, I was on an antidepressant a long, long time ago and it was like, like the Dalai Lama talks about this, like you got to get out and help people. And, you know, I think kind of always being reminded of prayer makes you aware that other people are struggling. There's just so, so much to it that kind of, it makes you feel like, I always just feel like I'm just this little piece of pepper in this whole grand scheme of things but also somebody who belongs. There's just the sense of belonging to that whole history that is the Bible, I guess.

Yeah. It gives a different perspective for sure as far as your own mortality and dependency. You mentioned there about how long you want to live. Obviously, some people on the Rejuvenation Olympics have named that like 160. I personally say I just want to live as long as I'm genetically capable. With a good enough lifespan and healthspan to be impactful and satisfy my purpose in life and hopefully play with my grandkids. And, I'm lucky my great-grandkids. How about you? Do you have a number or are you just doing this to be around?

Yeah, no number. I mean, for me, I think that's complete folly. I unfortunately lost my brother when he was 38 and he was a triathlete. He was ER doctor, amazing. And, you just know, unfortunately, no day is promised. So, I would hate to put a number out there and get hit by a bus the next day kind of thing. I mean, that sounds really morbid. But, so no, my goal is just to be as happy and healthy and mobile and vital for as many years as I live on the planet. And, obviously, I've got one son, he's got me, I've got him. And, I want to be here to help him as long as possible. And being a single mom, it's kind of, you know, you give up a lot. I say it's like, you know, there's just a lot of traveling that doesn't happen. There's a lot of things that you give up career-wise. And so I just kept thinking, wow, you know, if I could live another 60 years past the time that he leaves the home, I could have this whole, you know, second life and still be here for him. So That's kind of my goal.

Yeah, I love that perspective. You're an inspiration. I'm going to link to the Fortune Magazine article in which I first discovered you in the shownotes at BenGreenfieldLife.com/JulieClark. Send me the Goodreads thing. I'll link to that. I will. I'll link to the Rejuvenation Olympics for any of you who want to test your own blood and see where things stand. It's not that expensive. It's a little kit that gets sent to your home. You wait a few weeks. And then, you can just go to the Rejuvenation Olympics website and I'll link to that in the shownotes as well. But Julie, I'm just really glad we were able to connect and kind of share this holistic perspective on longevity with people. So, I really appreciate you coming on.

Yeah. Thank you so much. And I hope it inspires people that sometimes I imagine all the biohacking world can get confusing for people and just start where you're at. If you're not doing anything, just get the exercise, snack, toxin. Just start somewhere. Yeah.

Take a cold shower. It could be confusing thanks to guys like me putting out way too much information. All right. Well, cool. Again, the show notes are at BenGreenfieldLife.com/JulieClark. Until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Julie Clark signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com. Have an amazing week.

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