The Best EMF Protection Devices, How To Build A Smart Home That's Low EMF, Fraud In the EMF Industry & More With Hagen Thiers Of Qi Technologies & Waveguard.

My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life.

Podcast, we put our device inside of the room. And then what we saw is that this field strength is being reduced. And this is literally how we were first able to verify our devices and the field strength protection. And this is something which is really nice because it's actually according to the World Health Organization that it says radiation protection means you're exposed to a lower field strength. And this is exactly what the waveguard devices are doing. And we are able to reduce the field strength by up to 85% in the 5G frequencies, depending on how close you are to the radiation, Fitness, nutrition.

Biohacking, longevity, life optimization, spirituality, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Ben Greenfield Life Show. Are you ready to hack your life? Let's do this.

Well, if you've visited me at my house before and been wandering around, you may have seen these strange circular items on each floor of the house. Or if you open my refrigerator, maybe this kind of, like, cylindrical object that almost looks like it fell off of an alien spaceship. These things that are scattered around my home are called Waveguards. They've been developed by this company called Qi qi. And the whole story behind them has to do with this concept of something called electro hypersensitivity. I'll let my guests explain a little bit more about what that is, but if you're interested in things like EMF protection, electromagnetic radiation, smart homes versus dumb homes, and the like, this is gonna be an interesting show for you. My guess is Hagen Thiers, Hagen is the inventor of this technology. I realize many people are kind of skeptical of these technologies and how they work and whether you're just paying for.

Some overpriced chip that is just full.

Of a placebo effect. But I'm very interested in this whole field myself, of protecting us from emf. So I figured I'd get Hagen on the show and chat a little bit about this. So, Hagen, welcome to the show. Ma'. Am.

Thank you. I'm so pleased and happy to be here.

Yeah. Hey, so I just have to ask you right off the bat, do you have electrohypersensitivity? I'm just curious if that's what got you interested in all this in the first place.

Yes, I have been diagnosed with electrohypersensitivity when I was a child. That's true. And I still suffer from that.

How do you test. How do you test for something like that?

For me, it is really obvious. For instance, with sleeping disorder. So when I'm not protecting Myself and my environment from the EMF effects, my sleep will go. If I'm exposed to a 5G signal, it will go pretty much down to, well, 12 hours a day, which I can only fall asleep and sleep really. So it is for me, my sleep quality drops tremendously and also I get headaches and other problems.

So when you were a kid and I'm assuming your parents brought you to a doctor or something to get this diagnosis of electro hypersensitivity, were they just like, hey, he's not sleeping well and the doctor said he's electro hypersensitive?

Well, it was kind of like that. I was always getting the pain at my ear and in my headaches when I was using the wireless phone which they just installed into the house.

Wait, how old were you?

I was at that time around 11.

Okay, all right.

Yeah. So they found out like that, that it's causing damages to me. And I'm coming from a family which is the fourth generation of mechanical engineering family. And so my father then really looked into that, what he can, you know, do to our house in terms of shielding, in terms of any kind of changes in the environment and what kind of devices and solutions are there to really help me with that. And then we were going there a little bit on an embargo and we were looking to get everything and we tried everything out and we found like, wow, that is really a problem. And then you look into this issue and, and you find out that so many people seem to have some issues about this and even most of the people don't even know they have an issue, but they are affected. And if you're talking to the people, then you find out, wow, yeah, there's really a problem there and the people are just not really aware about it. And so when we found out that I'm not the only one with that issue and shielding is not always the perfect solution and it's not very handy. Then we were going on a mission to look, okay, is there a possibility to mitigate the effects from EMFs to our bodies?

You and your dad went on that adventure of learning more about this. So back to the electro hypersensitivity thing. Very curious, because it seems kind of loosey goosey like, hey, I'm not sleeping well. Because obviously, as you know, that could be, I don't know, drop in melatonin production, it could be the temperature of the room, it could be a food allergy, it could be inadequate intake of specific nutrients or vitamins or minerals like magnesium. So in our day and Age. It seems like there's gotta be a more precise way to analyze for this like HRV or.

Some kind of a better test for electro hypersensitivity than just, hey, I'm not feeling well and it seems to increase when I'm around electricity.

Well, I would really suggest sleeping analyzing devices, some real good sleep trackers like the OURA ring or Biostrap or something like that. Since usually we have a pretty clean baseline when it comes to the regards of sleeping. So usually we're not changing our bed every day. We're usually having somewhat the same temperatures in the same period and season time of the year. And we are usually also pretty consistent in our diets, most of the people. So when you're then starting to say, okay, I want to find out how sensitive I am about this, then shut off WI fi, then start to shield yourself and turn your phones off and don't have them into your bedroom, don't have electric devices plugged in when you're having a bedroom with a tv, you know, pull it out at night and things like that. Reduce the amounts of EMF in your bedroom. And see over a period of seven days when you're just taking those precautions when you're going to bed, how your sleep and how your sleep index is improving. And usually that is really significant. And for people especially, which are in the range below 80% of their sleep efficiency, I would really strongly suggest to go to this protocol to really find out how strong already their effects on their body are. And when we find out that our index and our sleep efficiency is having an effect, if we are reducing EMFs and it gets better, then it is also showing us very clearly we have a sensitivity there. And that does not just occur during the night, but it occurs during the whole day when we are also exposed. And then it's really starting to become an issue that we are saying, okay, then I also need to take some precautions during the daytime to reduce oxidative stress, inflammation and other problems in our body.

Well, does that mean though, if you don't sleep well? I mean, let's say if you do this test right, I'm going to unplug as many things in my bedroom as I can, make sure my phone's in airplane mode, and then compare my sleep when I do that versus when I don't. Does that mean you're electro hypersensitive or you have electrohypersensitivity? Or does that just mean like you're a person and everybody is subject to some amount of sleep disruption? Just from stimuli, whether it's light or electricity or anything else. Like it seems like there's kind of like a fogginess around, whether it's a condition or whether you're just reducing stimuli and sleeping better. Does that make sense?

Well, well, if we take it really serious, then let's face it, electrosensitivity is nothing. Which is really saying, okay, you need to have this kind of diagnosis and then you're for sure electrosensitive person. But what is it about? If you're having symptoms, if you're having reactions, if you're having a disorder in your body which is caused by this kind sources, then it means that's an issue. And if you can embedder your help by taking some precautions, that's a good thing. And the World Health Organization is, for instance, very clear about their ways of viewing, about radiation. And they're saying the lower the amount of field strength is which you're exposed to, the better that is. And so it is always a safe way to go that. And we have to remember that this is nothing natural which we're anymore exposed to. You just had Dr. McCollor on your podcast some time ago, and he was also just explaining it again, right. One billion times higher is the exposure even bit more compared to 100 years ago. And this is something which we just have to remember that our exposure is nothing which our body is used to. We are also working in a very similar principle that we are using this electro stimulations that we are using signaling in our bodies, that our cells are communicating. And this is all usually in a frequency which is below 100 hertz. So when we are surrounded by fields which are using much strength, higher frequency and much more power, there's almost always some kind of interference. And the thing is that almost every person is having a reaction in the form of stress. So cortisol production and adrenaline production is going up when you're exposed to radiation. And this is in the unregarding if you're electrosensitive or not.

Yeah, exactly. Everybody's going to be a little bit sensitive to. You said hertz frequencies that are above 100. It's my understanding, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of the natural frequencies you'd get if you were say, like walking barefoot outside or grounding or earthing or swimming in the ocean, they range from 0 to 100 and not a lot higher. Even a lot of these health devices, like the PEMF devices, the max hertz frequency, you could set them or like A red light stimulating device on is 100 hertz. So you're saying like once you go above that, but that's where damage would set in. But then at the same time, if I were using say like a PEMF mat for inflammation or sleeping on a grounding or earthing mat or something like that, and I'm getting exposed to Hertz frequencies that are below 100, that's not the kind of electricity that we're talking about as being bad.

Exactly. So everything which is coming to the regards of communication devices when you're going everything which is, you know, above the 100 Hz usually. I have started to study the things and focus on my research. Everything above 800 MHz. And there is also a very clear relation that when we look into the studies that it shows us the higher the frequency, the more is the non thermal, biological, unhealthy effects. And this is something which we have to be mindful about. So everything which is using a higher frequency is usually having a higher disturbance in our body's functioning.

And when you say non thermal, what you're referring to is not the heating of the tissue. But that's still an entirely different issue. Like if I hold my cell phone up to my head, that can actually cause thermal radiation in addition to non thermal radiation, right?

Exactly. So when we're looking into the studies and there is a big research community which is saying we are not just looking at the thermal problem, which is about that we're heating our tissues by around 2 degrees Celsius by a 30 minute phone call, that this is somewhat the maximum limit of what the safety standards are and which we find in the user manuals and the government obligations which they put to the mobile phone production companies. And so. But the more concerning part for me is, and this is according with the scientific community, is that the higher the frequency is, the more there is side effects happening in your body, that there is not any more the right communication going on, that there is hormones, hormonal disbalance, that you have oxidative stress reactions, maybe fertility issues and things like that. And that's why for me, if I'm looking on a chart of dangerousness, then it is about having lower frequency exposure. So many people also ask me, you know, what is more, what is, what is worse, you know, like using the phone on my ear or using maybe some Bluetooth headsets because it's convenient, you know, and I don't maybe have so many mindful and good choices by hand. So then what is the better Choice. Well, if you have a choice to go for something below 1000 MHz of a signal, which is Bluetooth, compared to using the phone on your ear, which is maybe using 5G in the United States with 5.5 GHz, then definitely Bluetooth would be still the safer option in the terms of the frequency exposure, which is very near to your body. And this is something which we can also keep in mind with where, you know, not maybe completely aloe foil, guys hats and trying to protect ourselves all day in every scenario. But we still, you know, want to do some mindful choices. This is the first one, you know, reduce the frequency which you're exposed to. And this is by distance, using maybe the speaker on the phone or voice messages, keep them in airplane mode, the phone, and then just after you have recorded everything, you know, just put it into the corner and shut the airplane mode off and be far away from that device if you're, you know, if you're having connection to it.

Yeah, I got that advice a long time ago. I think it was Dr. Mercola, and I do that quite a bit. I'll record a bunch of stuff, do all my stuff in airplane mode or as much as I can, schedule things, reply to things, then flip the phone on and it sends everything. It's a great tip. It works pretty well. You could do a lot just phone in airplane mode. There's still some limitations, but it's a good general practice. The Bluetooth thing, you might know more about this than me, but it's my understanding that there's different class levels of Bluetooth and like a class one signal is going to be a little bit more of a problem than say like a class two or a class three signal. Is that true?

Well, you have different ones and they have also changed that. So in the previous generations I think they were around 800 MHz. And nowadays the newest ones, which are really much stronger, in the newest generation, you're going up to 2.4 for 2.5 GHz. And this is one of the newer technologies. But if you're comparing that to a phone which is using already 5.5, you're already speaking about a significant drop there. But for sure, the safer option is to go without Bluetooth headphones. For sure. I'm not recommending to go for them, but if it's about having one or the other choice, then you might be mindful and it's good to know what is what.

Yeah, I mean, I just upgraded to the Apple iPhone 15 the first thing I did was I went to Amazon, I bought two sets of the USB C wired headphones because that's what I use half the time. Getting tangled up with those in the gym or putting them. Yeah, put them in your pocket. Creating the strongest knot known to humankind is not that convenient. But I still feel way better than when I wear Bluetooth all day long. Like with the EarPods. Do you think the Apple EarPods is that, is that the 2 plus gigahertz frequency that you're talking about with Bluetooth?

I believe so, yes.

Okay, I wonder if, do you know if there's earpods that are slightly lower in terms of the hertz frequency or if there are things to look for in EarPods? They're all the higher frequencies.

They're all there pretty much at the same standard. Yes. And they're using usually now the same technology in the Bluetooth. And you're much safer to have distance to your, to your phone, to use voice messages and things like that. But you know, if you have to be on a call, then I would still rather be on a headset connected than using the phone straight at my ear.

What about the wearables that a lot of people are using, like the aura you mentioned, the bio sensor? These obviously have Bluetooth. Is it as high a frequency as EarPods?

Well, that's usually the thing that if we are talking about Bluetooth headset, we need to have a constant connection. And most of the wearables, they are only building up a connection when they're connected to the phone. And so for instance, I was testing out the BIOS trap and they are literally just turning on the Bluetooth at the time when you're going into the app and synchronizing your data of the day. And so when I was tracking my sleep assist devices and with this wearables, it was actually kind of fine because they don't have an active connection. And then just in the evening when I wanted to see my data on the next morning after some sleep diagnostics, basically, then I could take off the tracker, I could put it next to the phone and put my, you know, go into the app and upload it. And until this time it was actually not having any Bluetooth connections.

Okay, that's useful to know. So the electro hypersensitivity piece, it's interesting because I kind of scoffed at that for a while and then I met multiple people, I don't think they were lying to me, who just freak out when the WI fi was on or who literally couldn't Go to an Airbnb or a hotel. I've done consults with these people because they asked me about what dirty electricity filters to buy or the clothing like the lambs or the no choice you can wear on an airplane. And it's obviously a big issue for them. I don't think it's all placebo. I don't think it's in their heads because they can just tell when they walk into a room and their heart rate goes up and their stress levels go up and their HRV drops and they don't even have to check to see if there's WI fi on in the room or not. So I believe that it's a thing. But I'm just curious. I kind of have this hypothesis that a lot of people who struggle with electro hypersensitivity, they also have things like poor toxin clearance from sluggish methylation pathways, possibly a little bit of what would be called cell danger response syndrome from previous mold or mycotoxin exposure, or even a stealth co infection like say Lyme or Epstein Barr. And of course, what goes hand in hand with many of these conditions is also high metal load, mercury, lead, aluminum, et cetera, which could in a way, if you think about it, almost serve to turn the body into a little bit more of an antenna that's more sensitive to these type of signals. So could you say, well, you could set up a series of tests where you're not just looking at sleep data, but you're saying, hey, are you poor methylator? Do you have high metal load? Do you have excess sympathetic nervous system activation, perhaps sluggish detoxification pathways, which you could also determine from a genetic test. And then you could step back and say, okay, you're definitely someone who has a cluster of testable problems that would render you to be more electro hypersensitive and make you a person who would really want to pay even more attention to, to the type of things you and I are talking about right now.

Well, I think that is maybe a little bit distracting that subject because it takes maybe away the part that you think, okay, I'm maybe not electrosensitive in the first place. We have to remember we all are affected by these issues and to protect ourselves and have some conscious and mindfulness behavior with our devices, which we use is the key in the first place to protect ourselves, to do some sorts of shielding and protection and to be mindful. And this is the first two parts. And it doesn't matter so much if you're sure, if you're Having more heavy metals in your body, more amalgam, if you have some metal in your teeth, of course that is going to increase your problem. But in the first place, you've got to stop the damage of happening to your body and then you can also start to reduce it. And also, you know, also those metals, they can contain more energy, they can contain more of the radiation in the body and store it in that way. And then that is a whole different subject. If we are talking about recovering from the radiation damages which happen to ourselves, then we are in more of a medical field and we are talking about the recovery part. But first of all, I think it's most important that people establish a baseline, which is that they are having a safe surrounding, that they're having a safe home, that they're sleeping well, and that they're giving their body time to also heal from this constant stress and inflammation which is being inflicted to their body. And this is the number one thing which we have to be mindful about to stop the damage of happening in the first place.

Yeah, I certainly don't disagree with you. That's a good point that you brought up by the, with the amalgam and the mercury in the mouth. That's another big issue that I think would probably correlate with this. But I mean, you brought it up in the first place, right? Like diagnosed as a kid. And just the fact that there is a diagnosis floating around out there of electrohypersensitivity would dictate certain people are going to be more sensitive. Even though everybody's sensitive, there's varying levels of sensitivity. Is that fair to at least say that?

Yes. So we have, for instance, the Electrical Hypersensitive Club in Germany.

Oh, there's a club. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. And we, we donate devices there. And there's like, there's are people which are really highly affected there. And I met some of the clients, I met their leaders and I spoke with them. They were visiting, you know, some presentations of mine and so on, and I spoke to them and something which is actually recognized is that it can go so far that you're literally your eye, your eye tissues, your eyelid is basically starting to react and that your, that your eyes literally turn blind even if you're opening your eyes when you're exposed to radiation. And this were some of the really, really sensitive persons. So. And there are some. If you're going into the extreme paths of electrosensitivity, then you find some real interesting, well, interesting people. And it's fascinating to learn about their effects on them. And they have been really diagnosed, they have been having a very, a very different life because they can literally not anymore go into a city. They cannot, even when they're wearing shielded clothing, they cannot anymore go into a city because their face is exposed and they're literally losing their sight and losing variety of sensors in their bodies. And this is then when it becomes very serious, obviously.

Yeah, probably just because we know that there's excess calcium influx into cells in response to non nav above 100 Hz frequency. What those people are probably experiencing is excess depolarization of the ocular musculature or some of the optic nerves. Don't you think?

Yes, well, it's in Germany, it's called netal, I'm not familiar unfortunately with the English name of it, but it's literally the, the tissue of your eye which is, which is being affected by it by higher frequency above 100 hertz which is starting to react and literally give off its function of passing off the optical signals which we are receiving in our eye and passing them through the brain. This is literally stopping to function.

So this is true that you live in like a radiation free home.

I'm building that right now. I have lived in a variety of places, been a little bit, well, traveler, if you want to say. So I built a radiation free house completely without electricity in Finland, where my two kids are born in that house. And then a couple of years later in Germany I was building a house which was actually kind of a smart house, you could say, but it was still EMF free, which was very interesting that you. I tried to find a balance between convenience and low radiation. And right now I live in Dubai. And here I think it's a much easier, more interesting challenge to actually live an EMF free life. But it also is actually working quite well. And I have created some EMF free curtains which are blocking out everything which is coming from the inside. Everything is wired. I'm also wired now to the Ethernet cable. And so you can actually experience that I have a Faraday cage around my home as of the waveguard devices which I have here and which I use to further depolarize everything. And so actually I'm doing pretty well on the part that I have almost in the whole apartment now. Almost zero field.

Yeah, but if you have a Faraday cage around your home, you would have to make sure if you are inside the home, connected to technology, you're doing as you're doing and everything's wired right, because otherwise signals are just bouncing around and trapped inside.

Well, but if you're earthing it, also, the electromagnetic field is also being picked up and also being grounded. And that is something which most people underestimate. The part of the real grounding. And if you're just having a Faraday canopy, silver baldachim kind of thing, which you're thinking throwing over your bed, you're not going to reach the results after a short time, after a couple of hours, you're going to already have again, electromagnetic fields inside of your bed. And so it is really about to actually ground the conductive fabrics, and that's actually doing the real trick. So then also the bouncing around doesn't happen because then we are almost talking about like a lightning which is traveling to a house and then being grounded. And so the EMFs are going out of your apartment if you're grounding it. And this is what I have done here. So I have taken some metal clips, conductive wires, and I put them to some grounding sockets.

Yeah, that's the same as I have in my bed. In my master bedroom is a Faraday cage that I had shielded healing design for me. And it is grounded. So when it goes down around you, you're not bouncing and accumulating more EMF signals inside of it. It works really well. I can't make a phone call, send a text message, so it definitely works. They'll cut off to the world. My wife doesn't like it so much. She doesn't think it's that sexy. But I actually sleep better when that thing is closed down around the bed. What was interesting, though, was something you said about how you kind of figured out how to get some of the conveniences of a smart home. And I don't know what those conveniences are. I'd love to hear you talk about them, but still be able to mitigate the amount of radiation in the home. Do you have any examples of what you did?

Well, for instance, so I built a whole house with KNX so that you basically can shut off every socket and every electricity plug in your house.

Wait, wait, wait. Do you mean like a master kill switch in the circuit room?

No. So basically a real smart house. Like we build it in Germany, and I know we're a bit crazy when it comes to engineering, so we have to level up a bit here. I don't know where you guys are standing there in the US but basically we are using the system here called knx. And basically what this is doing, and this was nice since we re renovated the house completely from scratch. So we also did all of the wiring. And so what happens there is that every power socket which you have in your house is getting an additional cable and is being numberized. So basically you can tell the electricity to stop flowing to that exact plug. So if you're having, you know, three, four electric plugs in your living room, in each corner, maybe one, then they all can get a name, they all can get a, some kind of link and address which you can address it. And then they all shut off individually. And so this is something what we use in Germany. So you can basically say power off living room light or something like that. And then the power is completely being shut off to that socket so that it's empty. And so the whole house was built like that, that you could basically single handedly and verbally even could actually control your whole house. So we had there like a tablet which was attached to the wall and it was also plugged in and wired in. And you could give it voice controls and you could control every socket in your house like that. And you could also say, okay, you know, turn on the garage gates or turn off the outside lights and things like that. Since everything was communicating by cable, had a name, was addressed and then literally the power would go on and off according to your commands. You could also specify at which times of days and nights it would turn off. And then additionally to that, at each bedroom we had, we had a kill switch for that bedroom completely.

That's pretty impressive. I thought my home was tricked out here in Spokane because I have a kill switch in each bedroom and then a master kill switch in the circuit room. But man, you're going above and beyond. If somebody is listening and they aren't, they have access to rewire the whole home. Could you to a certain extent just use like a dirty electricity filter in the outlets of each room? That's, that's going to help a little bit.

It's not really the same to not have an electromagnetic field and to have dirty electricity in your home. Those are, you know, heaven and earth apart. You know, we are talking about that you're not taking up any of the high electromagnetic fields to your body. And this is, you know, this is one level and dirty electricity is a more dangerous level. But you're not with a filter for dirty electricity. You're not taking away the problem of being affected by electromagnetic fields.

Knx so this isn't like a technology you develop. This is a technology that someone could outfit as they build out a home.

No, this is one of the common standards for building smart homes in Germany, which is not just that you address everything with Alexa and so on, but that's basically when you're building a house. Then every socket and every power line gets an additional data cable which is communicating. And then you have basically a software which is regulating that. And you can use that all wired. And then you have somewhere. We had it in our living room. We have basically one tablet which. Which could listen to you and you could give voice commands, but it would not have any WI fi on. It wouldn't have any Bluetooth on, and you could say literally any power to go on and off. And you could also, for instance, control everything, which is regarding electricity, which is really nice. So you didn't have to use any WI fi and you didn't have to have any of this, but you could interact verbally with your whole house, or just go to the tablet and do everything manually and say, okay, I want to open now the gates to the estate, or something like that.

That's cool. That's almost like a hardwired version of Alexa.

Yes, exactly. That's basically what it comes down to. It's just a hell of a lot of wiring which is being done there.

Yeah, for sure. I'll link, by the way, to some of these technologies. The Shownotes are going to be@BenGreenfieldLife.com Waveguard Podcast. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com Waveguard podcast. So you were talking about your dad before I derailed you, and we went into some other avenues and how he's a mechanical engineer and started to build out technologies with you when you were a teenager. Is that what led to the development of the waveguard technologies?

Well, ultimately it did, yes. So my father and I, we were testing out all kinds of products, and also the first couple of harmonizers were out there at the market already. We didn't really find any significant effects from that.

What's a harmonizer?

Oh, that's like this kind of stickers and pendants which you can put on your phones and put on, you know, like your electrical meter in your house and so on, which is from trying to harmonize the negative effects from you.

Okay.

I think that's the stuff what you find most on Amazon under 50 bucks if you're looking for EMF protection.

Yeah, okay.

Those kind of stickers and patches, so. And usually they call themselves harmonizers, since, you know, that's not really a qualified word, since they cannot say that they are reducing or protecting you. So it's a different Thing, So they're just trying to make it less harmful.

Okay.

So. And yeah, we looked into that and then what we found out is, and we, we came across that liquids have some potential. And we were, we were experimenting and working there with the University of Milan in Italy and working with them and we found that, okay, if you can let radiation and a radio wave interact with the conductive liquid, that actually there is happening something which seems to be very positive for our biological being and for our body. And so this is what we were then experiencing. We built prototypes then. And you know, this was really early on. We tried to find a solution for myself and you know, then becoming into those electronics, electrosensitive clubs. And then we handed out also some prototypes to them. After I said, I feel better with this. And then we asked them, you know, we gave them like a survey and like the time for two weeks to test this out. And this prototypes which were using this conductive liquids, and they really helped them and they didn't want to return the prototypes. We said like, no, no, no, you really got to give this back. You know, this is like not on the market yet. Nothing like this. And they said like, we don't want to give it back. We finally feel better, our symptoms are getting better. And so they said, like, name our name your price. And this was when we started, like, wow, here's really something. We're onto something. And then I, you know, this. There was some big events happening in my personal life. I was gone and was living in nature for a couple of years, completely EMF free and polar circle area of Finland. And so then I came back and then we restarted this project. And then we also found out that there is now actually studies which were comforting and also validating what we have been already experiencing in our prototypes, which was that depolarization is happening and that you can actually depolarize radio waves if you're letting them interact or pass through liquids. And what's basically happening is that you're dispersing them on a wider area. And that's why the intensity is not anymore so focused to your body, but more laid out. And that seems to be something which is rather natural. So all of the radiation which we are exposed to from Earth is always affecting our whole body and not just a single point at our ear, at our brain, and not just affecting some specific tissue, very concentrated, but it's always laid out on the whole body. And this means that the body is also feeling, by all sensors and all cells, some kind of pressure and Starts to basically function and see, okay, I need to counteract this negative effects. And this is something what our technology is doing, that we are basically laying out the effects from a small area to a big area from the radio waves which come in from your WI fi, from your WI fi, or the neighbor's WI fi, or the 5G tower which you cannot turn off, which is around the corner and things like that. And so basically you're spreading out the exposure from a small area to big area. And this is how we found that the field strength is reduced. Reduced. So we could show that in, I think it's around 12 or 13 studies which we did on field strength reduction with our devices. And then we also found out, okay, that the biological side effects are also not anymore there. If you're depolarizing radiation, how do you.

Actually make a conductive liquid?

Well, that's the proprietary part of the waveguard, which is why we haven't been copied yet. But, but this is the fascinating part, because you need to be able to basically have this kind of effect to not just flood your whole apartment with this liquid, but actually have it conductive in a bigger area.

Well, yeah, that's what I was going to ask you because the way you just described things to me, it seems like I'd have to take my WI fi router or my computer or whatever and just put it inside a box that has this conductive liquid inside the wall of the box. But obviously you're not doing that. Like I have one of your devices, like one of your devices is five feet away from me. It's at the base of my desk. I keep it under there. I have another one under the kitchen table. I have another one on the third floor of the house. So these are the WaveGuard home protection devices. I'm obviously not surrounded by the thing. It's just sitting there. So how does that even work if it's full of this proprietary conductive liquid? As far as protecting me, basically we.

Have to see it in the way that we have measured the range and it's some of the parts which we get a lot of interest. Interesting questions about, you know, how does this really work in the distances? And so that's why we have just measured it. And basically what it's replicating is a scenario that you would just flood your whole apartment with salt water. Salt water would be also a very possible way of depolarizing radiation. So if you're just living in the salt water surrounding, then you also would have the same effect that you're having a dispersed radio frequency just hitting your body instead of a concentrated one. But that's not really usually the possible way for us to just live in the scuba diving equipment. And that's why the question is, how do you reach this result without flooding your apartment? And so this is basically what we have done with the key devices. And we have been measuring them in the most technically advanced institutions around the world. For instance, the Eurofin DNB or for instance, the tuf, which is, I think, the biggest technical institution around the world, which is, you know, verifying the builds of bridges, cars, engines, emissions, and everything like that, which is everything, which is regarding technical. Was around 250,000 employees, I think, just in Europe. And so they have the setup which they build up. And this is how we validated our technology and which is making us completely unique. Nobody else has done that yet. So basically, there is a shielded room. There's no kinds of EMS in any part of the room. Everything is completely shielded off. And then you're putting in a sensor and you're putting in an antenna. And then you're producing over a signal generator. You're producing the specific frequencies like Wi Fi, like Bluetooth, like 5G. And then you're putting, for instance, the 5G frequency, let's stick to that example with 5.5 GHz, and you're distributing it inside the room. And it's traveling from one place to another. And so the only thing in this room in that moment is this 5G 5.5 GHz frequency which is traveling. And you can say, okay, it's supposed to be 1 volt per meter in terms of power. And then we put our device inside of the room. And then what we saw is that this field strength is being reduced. And this is literally how we were first able to verify our devices and the field strengths, protection. And this is something which is really nice because it's actually according to the World Health Organization that it says radiation protection means you're exposed to a lower field strength. And this is exactly what the waveguard devices are doing. And we are able to reduce the field strength by up to 85% in the 5G frequencies, depending on how close you are to the radiation.

Okay, so what I don't understand is, you know, if I had the WI fi on, which I don't. It's behind me. It's in that closet behind me. I'm hardwired in right now via cat7 metal shielded ethernet cable, which is kind of how you access Internet most of the time in my house. But I have WI fi. I could turn it on if I wanted to, and if I did, it's coming from behind me. I do have one of these Waveguards, like I mentioned in my office, but it's in front of me. So technically the signal would be hitting my body before it even got to like passing through the same area of the room that the waveguard is in. Isn't that a problem? Like, like how would the waveguard actually reduce that field strength before it hits my body?

Well, this is exactly the part that we have found out that our conductive liquids, which are placed in a specific geometric order, that we are having effects on further reaches from the device. So you don't have to be more near to your waveguard device to protect yourself than to the source. And so, for instance, to verify this, we were the first institution in the whole world which published a 5G study. So we have done the first 5G study in the whole world, which was just mind boggling to me when I found out that they're launching this whole new technology without one study out there. And so we also replicated there the system that we had, an exposure system of 5G to human skin cells. And then we had the Waveguard device, which was like one or one and a half meters away from the cell probes. So the radiation source to the to the cells was very close and the waveguard device was further away, 1.5 meter around. And still the effect when we had the Waveguard device there was that there's not any more. The negative side effects happen. 5G was imposing to the cells. And this is actually was one of the most impactful studies which we did and I think which we have seen in the whole industry. It was really, it was really awakening for everybody because the results were just shocking. When we were looking at how a skin is healing and how it's closing a wound, basically a gap, it's doing this by replicating the cells and multiplying. And so then it's closing a gap. And when we are exposed to 5G, this healing process was prolonged by 400%. So instead of a normal kitchen knife cut in your finger, for instance, would take maybe normally three days to heal. When you would be exposed to a 5G signal, you would have a healing time of up to 12 days. This is what the study was indicating.

Okay, so that's interesting that it does that. But what's the proposed mechanism of action here in terms of it not being surrounding me or enclosing the entire space, but rather just sitting in one part of the room. Have you hypothesized as to why you're seeing the results that you see?

Well, basically we have something which is by this conductive liquid which we were looking at, at the torus field, which is kind of a creation of that. You are having two electric fields which are counter interacting at the same time in two different directions. And this is basically what we found is responsible for this. And this is what we are intending to do. But it's nothing which you can validate. Since the torus field.

Investigation we have found out costs around 2.5 millions. So we have stopped to investigate that. So we are aiming for this functioning that we are creating this kind of torus field which is covering your house. And you can determine how fast there is the electron spin and how it's working the E field inside of the device. And then you actually can see how far is the distance it's covering. But again, we have been having a big change in our marketing in 2019 since we published and did there around 19 studies to validate our products. And so we moved to away from that point of saying, okay, this is how everything works. And we are claiming things, but we are just saying okay, everything which is on our website is validated by studies. And we have done now studies with the most recognizable institutions in the world. And now we have just last week we have just been officially funded by the European Union and by Germany, since they have validated now our technology and are starting to sponsor us. Which also has something to do because we got the inventor of the year prize for the key technology which is inside of the units. Just 20, 23.

Key is the technology that you named for this conductive liquid?

Yes, it's a key liquid which we are using inside of the units. But the part about the torus field and about how we're reaching this far field effect is something which we are using mostly in the scientific area where we are starting to research further and where we're working on. But it's nothing which we can't officially claim. I would say so. But in the most important part is that we are seeing it in the real life scenarios and in the field strength reduction tests that we can place a unit 2, 3, 4, 5 meters away from a radiation communication signal which is happening and that we are still reducing the effects. And this is something which was punishing the labs. And they were saying how you do this, but it doesn't matter how you do it. And then it's important that you can measure it, and that's why we can claim it.

Yeah, I guess I'm just curious on the how. How do you spell Torsfeld?

T O R U S. T R.

R U S. Okay, so I think I understand here. In the same way, that let's say a human being produces an electromagnetic field, right? We know that the Heartmath Institute has been able to measure it. The human body also produces light. You could actually measure that also via gas discharge visualization camera. What you're saying is that when I have this device on the floor of my office, it's not just the size or the diameter of the device, that's the coverage area. It's actually creating an electrical field that emanates out a certain number of feet from the device. Thus, it technically is blocking a WI fi that might be coming. A WI fi signal might be coming from behind me. Do I understand that correctly?

There is no doubt in that. This is not an explanation. There is not about, you know, do we believe in this? This is what we can measure. We can see that if we're placing the device in the center of the house, in the center of a test environment that 5 meters away, the field strength is reduced by WI fi, which is passing. And you know, you have it in your living room, the device, it'll stay in your example. And then you're having maybe, you know, 20ft away, you're having your master bedroom, and you're having their WI fi router, and you're having there, your phone. Our studies are showing that even if the device is 20ft away from your WI fi router, which is connected to your phone, for example, that's still there. The field strength reduction is visible and measurable.

But the size of the device seems to impact this because I went to your website and you've got one that'll cover a whole office building. Like one of my clients, he just got when he travels around within his backpack. I've got one in my refrigerator. I've got one on the floor of my office, and one underneath the dining room table, and then one upstairs in the master bedroom. These are like the home devices, but I noticed the office one's a lot bigger. Is that because you've got more of this conductive liquid inside the larger ones?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So walk me through the different devices and the coverage area that they each produce.

So the most popular device we have is the keyshield device, which is kind of a hybrid device, which is not just for stationary Use, but also for mobile use. And this is basically the best proven and scientifically proven product in the EMF industry. There's no other product which has done so many studies on just this singular device. And this is the device which you travel, which it's, it's around like a water bottle, which is around. Yeah, like 120 ounces or something like that.

Of a water bottle. And so there you have this mobile device which you can carry with you, which is really handy. You can put it in your backpack, you can put it in your cup holder in your car. And it is having a field which is covering 2.5 meters, I think that's what is that, around like 9ft or something like that. And so this area is then protected and you can put it usually at your nightstand if you're sleeping, and you can take it with you in your car into your office if you're going on about your day. And this is basically a device for single households or something like that, where you can just have one device with you and have everything kind of done.

It does go through tsa sometimes they pull it out, but you can get, you can get it through.

Yes. I've been traveling almost everywhere with it.

And I assume the reason you wouldn't have that as like a wearable, like a necklace, is that the amount of conductive liquid that's necessary would make a wearable too large, too bulky.

Yeah. And so this device is around $1200 and it's our entry level product. And this is basically for carry with you and use at home. So it's kind of a hybrid device. Then we have the key home device, which is covering a house with the EMF protection effects, which is usually covering something around 3,000 square feet of a house. And depending on your layout.

If it's really similar sizes on the width and lengths of the house, then it's reaching its optimal reach and efficiency. And then you have the Keymax device, which is for larger spaces, which is covering bigger houses, mansions and offices.

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And I would want that in as central a location of my house as possible or my office as possible, right? Yes. Okay.

But there where you spend most of your time.

Yeah. Now if it's reducing the field strength as you noted, will that impact my speed like my signal speed?

Usually not significantly. You can notice it depending on where you place it. But it's a way to find out if you're using it near the connection when you're really putting it near your wi fi router, then you can really start to see the effects on your speed. But anyway, I recommend to go for Wired.

Okay. What about, have you ever thought about say clothing? Is there a way to manufacture clothing that has the conductive liquid in that?

I guess the normal silver fabrics could be still something which is more interesting than clothing filled with liquids from a weight point of view. But indeed we are bringing out again smaller devices here. I can give you that much. Probably we see again at the health optimization summit in London, I believe.

Yeah, I'll be there.

Yeah, yeah. And we're planning of having there also our newest device. We had a key mobile, we had that in our line some years ago, which was a really small device which you could literally carry in your pocket, which was smaller than a phone. And that one just didn't have enough space to have enough liquid for reaching the 5G protection.

If I were to take a hammer and smash this thing, would liquid come out?

Yes.

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Okay, that's good to know.

And then you have. And so we are now planning of releasing this year the second generation of this T mobile which will be 5G proven and which will contain much more liquid on a smaller space. And so that will be one of our new releases this year which we are working on and so I think that will be very nice. And so it's a very low entry product and which is better than filling all of your clothing for with key liquid.

What about phone case? Could you make a phone case and fill it with the liquid or would be too heavy?

No, you could do that. You could do that. But in general the idea is to not just protect yourself from your own devices. This was one of the most principal parts which we set in Waveguard. We don't want to always lower your devices. You know, I have a phone here, down here in the. In the side of my desk which is not almost having any kind of radiation. I use that, you know, when I really have to do calls and things like that. And it's really pleasant for electrosensitive person to use it. But you know, it doesn't have all the nice gadgets which we sometimes like to use and fancy in our devices. And the same would be about clothing. Then it comes to fashion size and everything. Right. So the thing is we are not speaking about want to dictate a person what kind of devices they use and that they have to harmonize their own devices. We want to really say we want to create spaces which are safe and this is our ambitions. Especially we have the satellites, we have the WI fi's neighbor. We have so many sources of radiation which we cannot turn off. And this is really something where we say, okay, we have seen in WI Fi that the effects on the body are still and when you're 100 meter away, you're still having stress reactions as a sensitive person to WI fi. And this is just crazy since you can never escape it. And so we say, okay, you place a device here and in this way you actually have the benefits that all things which come inside of your house from the outside or which you produce yourself are being in better condition and less harmful.

Yeah, you brought up hardwiring the phone a couple of times. I wish more people knew this. It's like less than 10 bucks to get a USB C to ethernet or a lightning to Ethernet converter cable on Amazon. And in my office my phone is plugged into Ethernet which is great because I don't have that powerful of a signal, a cell signal in my office anyways, which means the radiation output is going to be even higher from the phone. But a lot of people don't realize you can literally plug your phone into the ethernet and it works just fine. You app downloads anything you normally do. It's actually kind of nice if you have the WI fi off in your home and you don't want to rely on a cell signal. It's super convenient. I wish more people would do it.

Yes. And so therefore, with all our products we're aiming towards not, you know, producing phone cases, not producing clothing, but having a device. Now the new one is going to come out this year which is going to be extremely small, which you can put in any jacket, in any vest and you know, which you can still put into your sport leggings as a woman, if you're going jogging and don't have a bag with you, you can still going to be able to carry that device with you. You and have everything covered. And when you're speaking about clothing, how are you going to protect your hat when you want to protect yourself with clothing from emfs?

Hey, how big of an issue is Starlink, do you think?

Well, it is one. It's just the next drop in the whole barrel which is already almost full. We are speaking about obviously signals which are pretty much exposed everywhere. We are not having any more blind spots basically in the world where we can go where we can live without a signal. Signals, those are getting harder and harder to find. And from my point of view, it was never really a solution to say I'm moving somewhere because there is lower radiation, because you don't know when they're going to pull up the next mobile phone tower next to that. And Starlink, you know, just tries to reach 100% coverage around the world. We have with Starlink 5G network on Mount Everest top. So you know how far more remote off the wilderness you want to go to escape radiation. It's not anymore really possible possibility. Installing was just speeding up that process.

So in your home everything's Ethernet. You don't have anything that would be like a wireless signal.

We have everything with Ethernet. But I'm also now testing a new technology which is actually wireless but with allowed radiation. And this is something that I'm playing around with for new series of homes so that you can actually have some sorts of adapters to your, to your phones, to your TVs, to your tablets. And then you can have a device inside of your house which is plugged into the Ethernet. And by that you're actually connecting your devices to the Internet without any radiation. So basically you literally, you would have. It's like a small USB adapter which you can put into your phone or into your tablet and that enables you to connect to the, to the Internet without any radiation. It's not using Bluetooth it's not using WI Fi, but it's using a new technology which is being invented and produced, and I'm working on bringing that also to mass market.

Does it have a name yet?

It's lifi.

Say it again? Lifi. Like lifi.

Yes.

Oh, it's actually a good name. But how far out are you?

Well, it's already there. It's just not really available for consumer market, and so we're working on that.

Oh, I'm sure a lot of people will be interested if I get more updates on it. I'll keep the show notes updated, folks. Go to BenGreenfieldLife.com Waveguard podcast. You can access it there.

And so basically, you can have a phone case which has like a LI FI adapter inside it, incorporated in it. And in this way you can connect to the Internet without any radiation, but it's traveling by light.

Got it. Why do you think it is a lot of these companies that are making, like, the stickers, the harmonizing elements that you referred to earlier are publishing studies that indicate that they're having some kind of an effect. Like Aristec.

Yeah, well, Aristec. I have looked into the sense. They sound really great. But you're looking into studies which come only from Russia, from a long time ago, from people which are not there. And so in Russia, there is also paid scientific work being done and so on. And we're not speaking about independent studies which are really looking into the pathway of electromagnetic fields. So. And this is something where we have to be specific about, you know, in the first way, you need to have a pathway of how this is working. If we are going to study, we can say, okay, our field strength is reduced, and we can show that, that our device does that, and it does that by distributing the radio wave on a bigger area. And that's why we also think there's biological effects, which is not any more harmful.

Yeah, they're more measuring biological effects. They're not measuring field strength. They're measuring like red blood cell clumping, for example.

Yes. Which is nothing. Which is scientifically approved. Red blood clumping is something which is very commonly referred to. But we are not speaking about something which is used in real scientific publications. And so when we're. You have to just, you know, when we are looking in this kind of product, there is a huge market behind that, and there is a lot, a lot of scam going on about this. I'm not saying that Aerotex is doing that, but you have to look at the quality of studies. And when you're looking at the, when you're looking at their studies, it doesn't just tell you that the energy is conductive, that there is a sensor inside which is conductive and that may be having something to do with that. So it sounds always very nice. And there's many companies which are hiding behind the word of quantum and things like that. And you know, usually I heard that from a lot of biohackers, always when they hear it's how it's functioning and then the word quantum comes run away.

It's a good, it's a good, it's a good cop out. Because, because quantum, why you follow a carnivore diet, you know, because quantum. Yeah, that is interesting.

And this is usually, you know, then when you hear this, you gotta be cautious. And it's usually a synonym for we haven't been able to test it, we don't know another way to explain it. And so this is something where you got to be careful. But in this ways we want easy solutions. We want to just buy a product for 50 bucks, put it on our phone and think, now we did something. In the regards of EMFs, you're actually.

The first person I've interviewed, by the way, about EMF protection technologies who has not used the word quantum during the entire interview until towards the end where you're pointing out that it's an inaccurate way to describe what these things do. So, so yeah, that makes sense.

And this is usually there is no pathway and this is the first part we can relate to the University of Athens where this is being studied and investigated and that our principle which we are following is something which is familiar with the scientific world. This is how we got to the Fraunhofer Institute, which is the biggest scientific institute of Europe. We worked with them, we did a double blind study with them over seven days where we were giving the people a key shield and there was a control group, there was a placebo group, and there was the real group and we gave them the products, we gave them placebo devices and we did the whole thing and we measured everything, all the pathways, all the biological parts with HRV blood testing, everything, sleeping surveys and everything. And then it gets published by the university and not just by one scientist of Russia, but there is a whole university and a scientific institute with 60,000 people standing behind that. And it takes years to get to that level, to even get access to do a study with them. You cannot just go to Fraunhofer, you cannot just go to Harvard or mit. And say, do a study on my device. I put here a million bucks on your table. This is not how it works. You have to have some reason to believe that you find results there. And this is what is really important. And therefore you also gotta explain how is your principle of action. And if you cannot prove that, if you're saying, this is a black box, this is just a plastic card which you put on your phone and now the effects are going away. And then you ask AirTechs how is that doing that? And you gotta, you gotta have a trouble explaining, like, what's different about this plastic than about, you know, tin foil.

I know I almost called you out on when you said proprietary conductive liquid until we actually got to the explanation, but it actually does make sense. Especially with my father being in the structured water industry. I understand a lot about the potential of liquid to generate a field. So it's very interesting. And by the way, I will be curious to hear what Aristech has to say too, because they run ads on this podcast sometimes. So hopefully somebody from their company can jump into the comments section and if anybody from Aristech is listening in and pipe in with your feedback, because I'd love to hear the opposite side.

If you look at the explanation, then you don't really find something there. And it's really just saying, okay, there has been some conductive field strangers happening and so on. And then you're looking at professors and single scientists from Russia which have been publishing something there. We are very close to paid research. And this is. I'm going to now call here something out. And this is, and this is the crazy part, Ben, when you're working in this industry, there is so, so much money behind this. It's crazy and it's not pretty, it's not nice, but there is so much paid science behind this industry. It is crazy. So normally what happens is if you're, how's the letter going there? And this is really important to understand because studies is not studies. It's like not like, you know, like you are not a medical doctor. We have to earn our stripes, we have to earn our rights. We can have some kind of knowledge, we can have some sorts of education and so on, but then there are certain barriers which we also have to pass. And so the same is in the scientific world. So the first thing, what you can do is some kind of case studies. That's like me giving 10 biohackers bio straps, letting them fill out surveys and giving them the devices and ask them how they feel and so on. And this is a case study study.

Yeah, I understand that. By the way, as you're going through this, give us the basic overview because I don't have much longer for this interview.

Well, so next part is then you can take this once to an institute which is doing this under controlled circumstances. And there you have to pay them really high money to get some very un, well uncontrolled results still because they are usually giving your certificate of hey, this is emfs harmonizing and they are giving you some random approval. And then you take this one to the next bigger institutes, when you're speaking about bigger institutes or universities and they're going to ask you show me some real studies from an institute and not just a case study and then maybe we'll take you and then they will take you. And usually what you see is that the results are dropping significantly. We have spoken to, we had offers then from three universities which came to ourselves after we published a study on the 5G set cells and that we found out, okay, does the university come to us and say we want to replicate this? Because this is mind boggling what is going on here. And this is where it gets interesting. And we have seen it ourselves. I have seen that researchers which we worked with, they faked some sort of studies which we paid them to do and we didn't want them to fake them, we didn't ask them to do that. They just wanted to give you a result that they say hey, you know, you work or something like that and then you go to the higher grade peer of an institution and then you don't see those effects being replicated. And this is a real big problem and it's really about finding good research. And there, this is what we have put on our flags that we say everything which is on waveguard.com is being scientifically proven and we are going the full way to the most recognized institutes in the world.

I respect that, that's fantastic. And and again I saw the studies on the website, I did some research before the interview and it actually is pretty impressive the amount of research you guys have committed to that's not just funded research or non controlled research. So it's super interesting. I'm going to link to your guys website from the show notes people go to BenGreenfieldLife.com Waveguardpodcast Like Hagen said, they're called keyshield. These devices you can see the different sizes and, and maybe try out the small one first to see how you feel. But it actually is, it's a very intriguing field. I'm super grateful that I was able to get on and talk with you about this, Hagan. And I guess I'm going to be seeing at the fantastic Health Optimization Summit in London. Yeah.

Yes, we are. We're our main sponsor.

Oh, cool. Oh. So people who go to that will get to try them out. So I'll put a link to that London summit in June in the show notes too, because I'll be there. It's a fantastic, fantastic. It's like a consumer electronic show for health and biohacking. It's incredible. You get to try out all these things. So shout out to the Health Optimization Summit. All right, I got to go. The shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com WaveguardPodcast and until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Hagen Tharis from Key Technologies and Waveguard signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com have an amazing week.

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