4 Leadership Strategies to Keep You Moving Up with Janice Fraser#

What challenges do you have achieving your goals? What keeps you from elevating your leadership style and impact? Well, my guest Janet Frazier, author of Farther, Faster, and Far Less Drama, is giving you specific tips for just that. She will share how and why the 4 leadership motions increase organizational effectiveness, productivity, and alleviates organizational Friction. She's going to talk about how orienting honestly early enables women leaders to make progress more quickly with greater alignment to strategically implement action plans that drive success. She'll also share how to leverage the 4 Leadership Motions to lead and thrive during dynamic situations, reorganizations, and other surprises. Stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm, along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Follow Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work life you deserve. Let's do this. Janice, how are you?

I am so good. Thank you so much for having me.

Oh, you're so welcome. In this conversation, especially around 4 leadership motions, um, I'm very intrigued about. And so, uh, but we will get there in a second. What I like to do when we kick off is our listeners and viewers to get to know our guests. So could you share a little bit about you and, you know, where you're from and what you do and all that kind of good stuff?

Sure, sure, I'd be happy to. Well, I live in San Francisco, but I split my time between San Francisco and Minneapolis. So we have a second home in Minneapolis. We spend a bunch of time there. We love it. My husband is there right now. I have 2 kids. I'm about to be a grandma, and my son is— he's 21, and he transferred himself to a university in Berlin. So I have this really lovely family life, and that's you know, that's a lot of what I do. I have a dumb, derpy kind of dog and a very mean cat who loves to hate on my dog. So, you know, like, my, my life is real family oriented.

Um, awesome. Well, getting into, you know, our conversation today, because it's all about really helping to empower women, get them moving, uh, farther, faster. And I love your whole platform around. Farther, faster, and less drama.

Less drama. Who doesn't want less drama?

Who doesn't want less drama? So where did all— where did that come from?

Sure. Well, you know, I, I grew up— I'm the youngest of 4 children, and I, I was much younger than my siblings, and they bickered all the time, and they— and I couldn't get a word in edgewise. So I started my career just like please God, stop bickering. I just don't want to hear it anymore. Like, grow up. I don't know. So, you know, early in my career, I just started to notice, like, who are the people who could get more done? And it wasn't always the person on the top, but it was always a person who had these qualities, which I now call leadership, um, who could just get stuff done. And when they were in the room, think the temperature would lower, and they just developed momentum. And so I began to really look for what are the patterns in, um, you know, in the folks who got stuff done regardless of what their title is, and what was it that they're doing that was different than the people who seem to have, um, a lot of activity but not a lot of progress, a lot of, um, you know, energy but not a lot of progress. And, uh, and so that led me to kind of really casting a wider net. Um, and I think, you know, at the same time, I felt really left behind by a lot of leadership books. They just didn't seem to describe me. They described something that I thought I was supposed to aspire to, but, but it never really felt right. And, and so those two interests intersected.

Yeah, that's fascinating. But I— before we move on and get too far into it, and you had mentioned regardless of title. So a lot of, a lot of individuals will ask me or will make the comment to me, well, I'm not a leader. I don't have— I don't manage people. And so why do you emphasize regardless of title? What does that mean to you?

Sure.

Yeah. What does that look like in regards to what I just commented as to the observations I'm given?

Well, what I found is that people who lead tend to lead wherever they go. And it kind of doesn't matter what the context is. If people need to come together to accomplish something important, there are certain folks who are able to identify what that thing is that needs to get done, put some structure into that, and help people move toward that outcome. And to me, that became my definition of leadership. And I think framing the problem becomes a really big part of what a leader's role is. And there's the kind of designation of leadership that comes with job promotion. But I think much more, there's the kind of leadership that is effective and functional. So I've started 6 companies, either as the founder CEO or as you know, part of the founding team.

Nice.

20 years. That was my primary career. And I would do consulting in between times, just, you know, while I was trying to think up the next thing. And what I found is that starting the PTA at my son's urban kindergarten was way harder than any of the 6 companies that I've ever found—

that I ever founded.

So when I think about what it is to be a leader, I started to notice that the people who are most effective it really had very little to do with whether or not they were in an appointed role that comes with that cachet of being a leader.

Right.

So sometimes it's the vice president's chief of staff in a corporation that's going to get the most stuff done. That the titular leader is valuable and important and what have you. But it's really somebody near that leader who is the one who does the effective functional leading. And both of those roles need to know how to do it successfully and how to be effective. And we had this moment, my husband and I wrote this book together and part of it derives from this company that we started together in 2010. It was early in the startup accelerator times. And it basically, what we did was we created a startup accelerator for early-stage technology products.

Nice.

And so we had 50 companies come through our studio and they would work for 10 weeks, 1 day a week in our studio. And we had 5 teams at a time. And so we could just watch differentially, like, what is this team doing that's causing them to go slow? And what is that team doing that's causing them to go faster? And how is that a leadership thing? So we were able to really just wrestle down and experiment with what are the things that actually they're doing differently? Like, what are the That's where we got motions.

That's what I was going to ask. My next question was, was that momentum actually the motions?

Yes. So I always want to tell people, here's something you can do. I'm really practical and pragmatic. There's mindset, and that's important, but then there's the activity.

Right.

And if you can have a mindset and then match that with a couple of techniques and activities, then you're going to be in good shape. So why don't I just tell you what the motions were that we saw, the things to do. The first one was that what I mentioned about framing a problem. So point A, we think about it, point A thinking, like, where am I right now? And what makes this moment complicated that it takes a leader to help move forward? Like, and this really, this thinking is really informed by this woman from the '60s. Her name is Barbara Minto. She was in the first graduating class of women from Harvard Business School. And she went on to establish the sort of communications and research protocol for McKinsey Consulting, still used today. She's amazing. And she said to— I use the word orient honestly. It's just how I describe it. But she said situation, complication, question, answer. What is the situation? What makes it complicated? Use that to frame your question so that you can begin to approach the answer. And what I found is that all of these really effective leaders, whether they're titled leaders or just people who get stuff done with others, that they all have a real skill in framing the challenge. And that Situation, Complication, Question, Answer is a way that we can do that on purpose.

OK, right. So I want to be clear, though. So is that— is framing the challenge the first motion?

Yes. Orient honestly is the first motion. And the second motion is value outcomes. So if you're framing a challenge, you have to say, where are we now and where are we going to? Right. So that's the whole frame. So the first is situation complication. The second is valuing outcomes more than on-time, on-budget delivery according to the deliverables in your plan, because times are too dynamic right now to know that you can plan ahead with accuracy.

Sure.

But if you put the outcome at the other end, that allows you to flex all of those little steps in between to get you to that outcome.

Right. Okay. All right.

So I think of that like sailing a boat. Like, the wind can change directions and you just shift your sails, but you're still sailing across the bay.

Right. Okay. Oh, that's a great analogy.

It helps. It really does.

It does, especially for us visual people.

Yep. Like, Raising my hand for that one.

Yes. Yes.

So then the third one is something we all do. And I think women tend to do this. I think all diverse leaders tend to do this. And that's we leverage each other. We lock arms and we make good use of all the different minds in the room. So we call that leverage the brains, right? Who are the right minds to have with you? And how can you engage them in co-solving the problem? That includes all this about delegating and respecting other points of view and taking in lots of information. And there's a degree of humility that I think is a hallmark of this new modern type of leadership that a lot of us come just innately with that. But we can now name it and do it on purpose. So leveraging the brains is our third motion.

All right. But before you move beyond that, though, you made a comment about the fact that, like, and I'm not necessarily quoting, But it was more around, you know, and the majority of the leaders, you know, have this capability. Do you really find that? Do you find that, that they really do leverage? Because I know a lot of micromanaging leaders at all levels. Yes.

This is why I don't think I, I really differentiate between people who get a lot of stuff done as the real leaders.

Okay.

As opposed to the people who have maybe a title that sounds like a leadership title who don't actually get a lot of stuff done. So the micromanagers, the know-it-all know-it-alls. I could go on about the 20th century great man myth of leadership, which let's just say is not getting us where I think we all want to go.

Right. I agree.

And I don't think it's right for them or for me, frankly. And so this idea of naming the thing that actually works, hopefully we can say, you know what, how might I more effectively leverage the brains in this situation. That's kind of why we want to put this out there into conversation, is so that we can do it on purpose, right? And say, oh, I'm, I'm clinging to my own sense of my own knowledge and my own sense of my own importance. What I really need to be do— do is get 3 or 4 other people with me, listen to them, right? And allow myself to mature my own thinking in this situation. Right.

That's where the humility came in because of the fact that it does— it takes a lot of humility to be able to, and vulnerability to be able to do that.

Yes. But also confidence. We have to know that if we allow other people to be smart, it's not in any way going to denigrate ourselves. This is where concepts like emotional maturity and emotional EQ come into play. Right. So this is why if you're like, how can I be a leader that creates psychological safety and uses a high degree of emotional intelligence? Well, one of the things you can do is just think about leveraging the brains, right? How can I leverage brains? So then once you start involving other people, you need a better way to make decisions. And this is where a lot of the drama comes in.

Okay. But before you move on, you're giving us a lot. And I love it. For those listening who may not understand, when you used the phrase, the term brains and not brain.

Yes. Oh, that's a beautiful nuance. Yes.

Yes. So when you said brains, can you elaborate on that?

Sure. Um, so I always look for 3 kinds of people to involve in any situation, especially if it involves a decision. The people who have the subject matter expertise, right? There's somebody out there who knows whatever it is better than I do. Let me learn from them. Then, then you have the people who have to live with the outcome. These are the people who are usually forgotten, right? And the It's like you can think about the customer service representative on the other end of the phone who hears the customers complaining all the time. How often are they actually consulted about what customer needs might drive our product roadmap?

That's so true. That is so, so true.

So this is where I think letting go of ideas about leveling as the reason to listen to somebody or invite them in, right, can be really helpful as a leader. And then the third, often we are afraid to do this, but it's include the people with the authority to say yes. Right? So if I'm going to make a decision, I want to leverage the brains of people. Somebody has the accountability for whatever that decision is. I need to actually go say, "Hey, tell me what you're looking for. What are you interested in? What is your point of view?" So that we're going not just across to our quote unquote stakeholders, we're actually involving the people above and below. So you can think of it almost like a 360 review, right?

Right, right.

But you do it in a really small way, right? So those 3 kinds of people, you invite them to any decision and you have a much smaller group than, you know, have you ever had a corporate or, you know, organization who wants 20 people involved in every decision?

Yes.

And it's It's a nightmare. It's my nightmare. It's just like watching my brothers and sisters around the dinner table arguing about something dumb.

Yeah.

Right.

So you can only imagine. Oh, I can only imagine.

Yeah.

No, I would've, I mean, maybe at a certain point you just opt out of, I just sit in the middle and just quiet and then I insert myself.

Yeah, okay, I could ask you about that forever.

Yeah, that's okay. This is about you. This is about—

yeah, all right.

Um, now, so that gets us— since we had a lull, I'm gonna stop you for a second and I'm gonna edit this in because, well, I just noticed that I'm not sure how that happened, but your website wasn't in here. Oh, what am I doing? So let me make sure I get your website in here.

JaniceFrazier.com.

Yep, I'm just slow.

It's all right.

And I'm trying to like— this should have been done already. Learn more at— oh, Bernadette. Okay.

I have a dear friend named Bernadette.

Oh, is that right?

Yeah, she runs our local coffee shop. She was a regional manager at a chain, and then she's like, F that, I'm gonna do my own thing. And we've become really good friends.

They're fiery. They're absolutely fiery.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay, so we were talking about the brains, and that's fabulous.

Yes. And the 3 kinds of people.

And the 3 kinds of people. Yeah.

So why don't I just— I'll just summarize. So the 3 kinds of people, just to summarize, we want the people with the knowledge, the people with the authority to say yes, and the people who have to live with the outcome. And those, if you always include just somebody from those 3 groups, you're going to get such a rich picture. Even if it's just 3 people, you're going to get such a rich picture. And I think we forget sometimes to invite those other voices.

Yes, absolutely. I can't agree with you more. And it's causing our businesses to lose a lot of value.

That's right. And we treat people like stakeholders. So this word like stakeholder management, I understand where that's coming from, and I've done a fair amount of it myself. But if we think about people as stakeholders, and we think about managing them, that's really different than thinking about leveraging the people who have the subject matter expertise.

Right.

It's just, this is one of those, like, it's like, it's a language shift that represents a different way of being together.

And a different action, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's a different action that you're going to put in motion based on that reframing.

Yeah, yeah. I, I like to get people in a room together and extract all of the value out of them that I can, all the knowledge, all the wisdom. I'm like, I just give me all the good stuff, and then I still get to, I still get to feel like I own the decision if I need to. Yes. But so that's where the relationship between humility and confidence really comes together, and I think the best leaders You know, the most admirable leaders I've ever worked for had this really beautiful balance of confidence and humility.

I, yes, I have to absolutely agree with you. And I have to also ask you to elaborate a little bit more on— you just made a comment around the fact that you get more buy-in when you include all of— leverage all of those people. How important is buy-in and how valuable is it to the leaders to where they absolutely should be?

Yeah. So I deliberately stopped using the word, phrase buy-in about 15 years ago because I felt like it was covering a lot of interpersonal nuance. And so I developed this model, this this idea, and it's in the book as well. Where's my book? There. I can't— left and right are all confusing on video, right? So the model is a diagnostic model for whether someone supports my ideas or the things that we're trying to get past, let's say. And I call it You Bad. And I apologize if that's dumb, but like understanding belief, advocacy, decision-making. And it kind of like each layer sits on top of the previous one.

Okay.

Do they understand? If they understand, do they believe? If they believe, can we see that in how they're advocating? Right. And are they making decisions that are aligned with that direction? Sure. So here's an example. So of how these things stack on top of each other. I used to work for this company called Pivotal Software, and it is the, the part of the company that I worked for was a, um, a, uh, consulting, you know, build your software for you but also teach you how to build software, right? So large companies, you know, the Air Force would come and, you know, work with Pivotal. And, um, one very large financial services company came to Pivotal once, and it The way that Pivotal Belt built software, the company was acquired long ago. The way that they built software felt like magic. Like it was fast, like crazy fast and very high quality. And they didn't have any quality assurance people, like all these things that felt really magical to the executives who would come walk around the office and see everybody in their hive of activity. And they'd be like, I want this. So they would take a tour and within a couple of weeks buy. And they'd be like, here's $5 million, I'm going to buy soft— please teach us how to make software. Well, this financial services company came and landed a team of 5 software developers. So they had bought, they had belief, but they did not have understanding because they didn't understand that that meant that their software developers would be involved 8 hours a day in pairing, 2 programmers sitting side by side talking to each other and developers are not allowed to be in meetings during those hours. And so they bought because they believed, but they did not have understanding. And so those software developers showed up, got angry, and walked out a week later. Like, just, you know, table flip. I'm out. What do you mean I can't be in a meeting? I have to go to these meetings. I have it. I have 30 hours of meetings a week, right? And so this company had to learn how to get people not only to believe but understand what they were buying in order for their customers to long-term be satisfied.

Right.

So, so like, were those executives that walked through, did they have buy-in? Yes. Was that buy-in valuable? No, it was actually dangerous.

Yeah.

So, so trying to get a more nuanced understanding, right, where We try to create belief and understanding, and then we test that by looking for advocacy and decision-making.

Advocacy and then— Right. Okay. But if there was one word, is it belief that you're using instead of buy-in or—

No, I call it support. Right? Because that's really what it is. So belief isn't enough. Support is active. Belief is passive. Support is active. Right. And so what we need is action in alignment with belief that is well-informed through understanding.

Gotcha. Love it. I love it. Love it. And you're right. You love practicality.

I really very— yep. I try to take the big hand wavy stuff and break it down. I keep a sticker. There's a sticker on this computer. I almost I don't want to replace this computer even though it's getting old because it says regular people. And that's what I just want, regular people to be valued. Yeah, like, because I, I'm a regular person. I think, I think most of us are just regular people, right? And, and so anytime I see, uh, people who think they're special trying to keep the special thing for the special people, I'm like, no, no, no, no, let's, let's deconstruct this and make it something that's accessible for everybody.

I love that. Love it, love it, love it. All right, but we— I think we need to go back, right? Okay, we only got to 3, correct?

Yeah, there's one more.

Yeah, I didn't want to miss that 4th leadership motion.

This 4th one is really good. And so it's about— I think that a lot of drama comes from decision-making, and there are 2 different kinds of, um, problems. One is the decision that takes a long time, the like We've been talking about this forever. We can't make a decision. All of that kind of stuff is kind of version 1 of decision problem. The other kind is, version 2 is like cowboy decision-making. You've ever been on a call and a decision is made and people didn't feel heard and you could just hear like, ugh, they're not You know, it's just not going well, but somebody makes a call anyway, and then everyone from that call goes away and does whatever the eff they feel like, right?

Yes. Yes.

And now you have chaos, and now nobody trusts that decisions— that people are going to follow through with the decisions they've made. Like, so both versions are really problematic, and both of them cause a lot of drama, and ironically, they have the same solution. So in the first case, usually what you hear are things like, do we all agree? Is this the best decision, right? Is this the right decision? And the answer is, how can you possibly know if it is best or right? That's far too high a standard. Like, you never know, right? Wouldn't it be much better to say, does this move us toward our outcome? Does it move us forward? And can we all live with it?

That's a powerful one.

Yes. Not do we all agree. Like, we don't all— if we all agree that this is the best decision, we will never get to decision because that's an impossible— that's, that's too high a standard. Yes. So let's like calm down a little bit. Does it move us forward? Can we all live with it?

Right.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And what do you call this fourth?

This is make durable decisions. Right.

Love that.

So I think of decision-making like Carhartt pants. If you've ever gotten a pair of work pants, they might not be the most fashionable, they might not look cute, but they get the job done.

Right. Right.

And so if you have the other problem where decisions are made haphazardly or through some sort of executive fiat or whatever your personal version of this is. The same standard is true. Because if you ask the question on that call where people are feeling like they're not heard, if you actually ask the question, "Listen, can we all live with that?" If you've got psychological safety, someone's going to say, "You know what? I really think it's a problem." And shouldn't you listen to that? Like, can we all live with it? No, I'm going to go out of this call and I'm going to do my own thing. Like, no, no, let's take a minute. So in both cases, we just want to take the right amount of time to make a decision we can all live with that does move us in the right direction.

Right.

And if we just do that over and over again as an organization, time after time, we're going to start making a lot more progress. And we're going to have a lot fewer arguments. We're going to reduce the drama. We're going to get more done, and we're going to go faster.

Love that. Love it, love it, love it. And yes, anything to reduce the drama that can happen when you get more than one person in a room.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is all the— these are my favorite things, my least favorite things. The meeting before the meeting to decide what's going to happen at the meeting so that when you have the meeting, then everybody hears that the thing happened at the meeting. All of that culture revolves around creating obligation to follow through with a decision. That's it, right? Like, do we need to do so many machinations to create peer-to-peer accountability? Like, wouldn't it be nicer to just make decisions that we can all live with?

Right? Yeah, sounds simple. Why is it so hard for them to implement?

Oh, because people are complicated. Yeah, but also because, you know, we use these shorthands and we need to take a moment to think, right? We think that if we do industry best practices and we make the best decisions and we go for consensus, like that, that all of that is going to keep us safe. And what we're seeing is that actually it might keep us safe, but it doesn't make for a good outcome, right? So this is just about like, what are a few things that as leaders we can do on purpose to kind of get more done in a positive way without worrying about fanfare and glory and be moving toward the outcomes. Yep.

And be focused there as opposed to any kind of high, high, unachievable expectation or standard that really doesn't allow anyone to ever get to the end goal. Right. Basically what I picked up.

That's right. And, you know, I don't want to let this sound like it is lacking ambition. Or, um, like I have one of the startups that I advise. I have a handful of startups that I'm an equity advisor to, and one of them is this husband-wife founder team. And, and the, the woman, her name is Sassy Duggleby, is the CEO of the company, and they're making a Mach 9 space plane. It will get you from LA to Tokyo in an hour.

Okay.

And it doesn't burn carbon.

Wow. Right?

So let's talk about ambition.

Right.

Mega ambition. And they were able to very, very simply create an outcome statement, set of outcome statements that organized the company's goals for the first year. One of their 3 outcomes was make fire. Right? So they're now 4 years in, I think, to their journey. And that first year they're like, Step 1, let's make some fire with our rocket or like, or whatever. I'm not a technology person. So like, I'm like, yeah, Sassy, whatever you say.

That's all you have to say is mine.

They're doing great and they're doing it without a lot of drama. They're doing it in this very kind of, um, you know, pragmatic. That's what the word is. It's just, it's very ambitious and very pragmatic. Right, right, right.

Wow, that's fascinating. And I'm gonna have to look it up and get some progress reports on that.

Yeah, Venus Aerospace. Unbelievable. Wow.

Yes, yes. Now, commercial or private, just as an FYI?

Uh, it, it will be commercial use or for private use? It will be commercial use, and it will be probably, you know, government. And, you know, who knows, who knows. I mean, they're They're a spaceflight company. They've got another probably 10 years before they're going to make any money. If that.

If even that.

Yes.

So what, what is one last piece? Because this has been fabulous and what great practical information and tips for our listeners and viewers. But what would you suggest of those 4 leadership motions and everything that we've talked about? What would you suggest they can start focusing on right now as they leave this conversation?

I honestly think that the place to start is Orient Honestly, right? Just take a moment before your next— if you're hosting the next meeting of whatever, you say, what is true right now? And what makes this moment complicated? And then do we all see it the same way? And, and you're like, well, how do I know that there's something complicated? Well, you have to have a meeting. Yeah. So just get really clear. Situation, complication, question, answer. Yeah. So that's where I like to start. It's very mindfulness-based. So a lot of leaders right now are working on mindfulness techniques, and this is mindfulness as it applies to your business challenge. That's all it is.

Yes.

And if you study mindfulness, you realize that simply noticing and naming is half the game. Agreed.

Yes, yes. And it's, it's, it's very doable if you have an open mind to kind of take all that in.

Yeah. And it's the kind of thing where when you practice, you just get good at it, and then it becomes second nature. And then suddenly you've improved your leadership skills and you haven't even really worked that hard at it. Right.

And then all of a sudden you're wondering why you can breathe fine.

Right, exactly.

Because before, all of a sudden you're realizing you were holding your breath the last 20 years.

Or you realize, oh, that's why I can't breathe.

Yes.

Like, look at this. This is really a mess. Sometimes it's simply validating to be able to tease apart all the different layers that make a situation hard and complicated.

Right.

The analogy that I often use is like, if I'm in Denver and I have to get my team to an offsite in Albuquerque and I write out driving directions, and I send it to my team, it doesn't help if they're all in Miami, right?

Yes.

You're like, true. Oh crud, I see it like this, but half of the folks see it this other way, right? Okay, maybe that's the problem that we gotta fix first. We're taught so many ways to set goals— SMART goals, OKRs, OGSMs, blah, blah, blah. Nobody has ever— nobody ever taught me how to notice where I am right now.

Right, right now, and what your desired outcome is.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Say right now, present, which is something I've been working on for like 5 years, just being very present in the moment. Yeah, that takes practice, but once you do, it becomes such a, you know, such a freedom tool.

And, you know, it's so simple, and you think if it's this simple, it can't be helpful, but it really, really is.

Yeah, I didn't find it simple, Jen. It's not— I have to tell you, because I was always in the past or up, you know, in the future, and it took me— and it takes me time to really just kind of say, nope, you're right here, right now. Enjoy it right here and pay attention and listen and be alert and don't worry about everything else. It took me a lot of time.

Absolutely. And I have studied— I mean, I've studied it actively with a teacher, as a leader, as a human. So I think I took my first real mindfulness class in 2018. So I think we're on the same time frame. Well, speaking of being mindful, Thank you so much.

I so appreciate— this has been a fabulous conversation.

What a joy. Yeah, this is great. Thank you so much.

Oh, you're so welcome. But I want to remind everyone, first off, follow her on LinkedIn. You could just look up Janice Fraser and you're going to find her, um, very easily. Pick up her book, it's on Amazon, Farther, Faster, and Far Less Drama, uh, which is also just— what a fabulous title. Uh, and then also go to, uh, janicefraser.com, learn all about her, and, uh, reach out if you need more information on the Four Leadership Motions and just everything that she does. Thank you so much, Janice. I appreciate it.

My pleasure, and thank you for everything you do.

Oh, you're very— you're very welcome. What a fun, lively, and powerhouse conversation with Janice Fraser that was. What did you walk away with? I walked away with loads. I was scribbling throughout the entire conversation just because she was offering such rich, rich, rich tips and strategies and models for all of us leaders out there. So she talked about the 4 leadership motions that will help with your organization effectiveness, your productivity, and more. But as she led herself into that part of the conversation, she really talked about what leaders should be doing. And it was also her very last and final tip that you should be going off and working on right now, is to really understand before you go into the next meeting, for instance, ask yourself, where am I right now? Like, you know, get your head on straight about whatever it is that you're going in to discuss, to make decisions on, even to debate. Um, and she suggested using the model, and she referred to Barbara Minto, who is a leadership guru that is quite renowned. And she talked about her model that she leverages all around what is the situation, asking yourself questions. What is the situation? Why is it complicated? And it doesn't mean that it's outrageously complicated. It could just be What is it about this situation, this decision, this topic I'm going to go talk about that might have some complications in it? And then what are the questions that are going to come up for it? What are the questions I have about it? What are the questions other people are going to bring? And then what are the answers? And so whether you're or not you're initially evaluating that for yourself before you get into, you know, a critical meeting, but you're also making sure that the discussion that you're having, if you want to have productive gatherings and conversations and meetings with your people, then ensure that these 4 things are looked at as well. Okay, so what is the situation? Everyone— who does everyone have a clear understanding of what the situation is? Why is it complicated? What are your feelings about this situation? And then what are the questions that everyone's bringing up? And what are the answers to those questions? So before you kind of think that when you leave that meeting, everything's been taken care of and everybody's supporting it, and everybody understands exactly kind of what was discussed and what the outcome was. Make sure you walk through those 4 things and get validation from everybody in your meetings. And then she went on to talk about those 4 leadership motions, as I mentioned, and she really broke them down. Just fabulous, very practical, as she likes to call herself, offering very practical tips. And then of course, the fourth of those four leadership motions is all around drama. And who doesn't want less drama in their life? I know I do. And then she really honed in on a concept that she calls orienting honestly and doing it early. So making sure that you're really kind of orienting yourself to whatever that situation is, or a situation is that you're getting yourself into. So what did you walk away with from this conversation? I'd love to hear your comments. If you aren't already following me, be sure to do that on LinkedIn at Bernadette Boas, and then send me a direct message. Put a post or your comments and questions in one of the many posts that we share out there and let us know what you're taking away from the 4 leadership motions that'll help you move further, farther, and with far less drama, um, through your career. I am so thrilled that you were here with us this week, and I'll look forward to having you back for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Take care, everyone.