Don't Take Workplace Bullies... Lynne Curry tell you how!

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Hello and welcome to Shedding the Bitch Radio, where you can discuss, debate, and get advice on how to discover and shed the bitches of fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negative mindsets so you can realize your dreams and life purpose and create and accelerate the riches you want in life. Join us here live every Tuesday at noon Eastern and dialogue with us at 818-572-2910. You can also chat with us at blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitch or share your stories on our website at sheddingthebitch.com. Whatever the bitch is that's holding you back from living your life to the fullest, it's not worth giving up the riches in life that you deserve. So call in now and let Bernadette Boas know what's holding you back. 818-572-2910.

Good day, good day, good day everyone, and welcome to Shunning the Bitch Radio. Yes, this is Bernadette Boas. I'm so excited that you are joining us. We're gonna have a great conversation today in regards to workplace bullying and how do you deal with it and how can you overcome it and how can you actually outsmart that workplace bully. But before we get into that, also next Tuesday is Ask Bernadette. So I take your questions, stories, and challenges that you might have posted on Facebook or Twitter. You can send them through LinkedIn. You can even send them directly to me at BernadetteBoas@sheddingthebitch.com. And it might be a question about your boss or a question about how to deal with a difficult situation that you're struggling with. Whatever it might be, get your tips, advice, sometimes tough love. Don't just sit there feeling like you're the only one sitting on an island all by yourself. We all, we all have our challenges and our struggles, and there is a wealth of information within the Shedding the Bitch community. So post your questions, stories, challenges out on Facebook, out on Twitter, on Shedding the Bitch. Go to LinkedIn or email me directly at BernadetteBoas@sheddingthebitch.com. We'd be more than happy to provide you some tips and advice you can be leveraging today. Okay, that'll be next Tuesday. You believe we are in September? Oh my gosh, where did this year go to? Now, turning to a more serious note, I want to ask everyone to just kind of sit quietly, um, for some time, even if it's 30 seconds today, and really count your blessings and say your prayers for all of the people of Texas, all of the people of the Houston, Corpus Christi, Rockport, the Bayou area that are dealing with this unbelievably devastating both hurricane and storm and flooding. It is overwhelming. I can't imagine being there. And so I've had to find myself going quiet and reflecting and being so grateful for being safe and being dry and having food and having my home and having my dog as I watch all of those images of people, you know, doing anything and everything to save their lives and their families. So if we can all just take some time today to really pray for them and for their recovery, and they will recover, and yet it's going to take a long time. If we can also pray for those who have lost their lives, because there has been a few, and just for a very, very, very speedy recovery and a great response from the community and even the government. And then if we can also just say a prayer and count our own individual blessings of how grateful we are to be alive and how grateful we are to be safe and sound and dry. Because that, that can't be overlooked or, or brushed under the rug. So prayers go out to everyone there.

Also would love, love, love, love—

and I actually need to do it myself— but every one of us can make a difference, even if it's $10. If you were to call 1-800-RED-CROSS, or you can even text Harvey, the name Harvey, to the number 90999. And I'll— Deborah will post this information as well throughout our tweets and our Facebook posts. But if you want to contribute, and again, it just takes $10, but if you obviously have more, that'd be great too. 1-800-RED-CROSS or text Harvey to the number 90999.

Now, we do have a great show today.

We're turning the tables on workplace bullying, and we're going to or our guest is going to tell you exactly how you can avoid, how you can confront and deal successfully, or how you can overcome a workplace bullying type of situation. So we're going to take a brief break. When we come back, we'll get into this conversation. And your rich question for today is, what is that one thing that you could do to minimize confrontation and minimize a potential situation around workplace bullying? Do you know what that might be? And if your answer is no, that's okay because that's what Lynn will share with you today. So your rich question: What is that one technique, one little strategy you use to mitigate workplace bullying situations? And your rich tag will be workplace bullying and of course, shed the bitch. So, When we get back, now we will get into this conversation and we will talk with our guest Lynn Curry of The Growth Company, and we will be right back.

You are listening to Shedding the Bitch Radio with Bernadette Boas. We are inspiring individuals around the globe to discover, confront, and shed their bitches of fear, insecurity, and negativity so they can create the riches in their career, business, and life they deserve. Be sure to check out Bernadette Boas' book, Shedding the Corporate Bitch: Shifting from Bitch to Rich in Life and Business, available on Amazon and sheddingthebitch.com. We also want to thank our sponsors, TSR Consulting, who offers a broad range of tax services for small to corporate-sized clients. Go to TSRConsulting.com to learn more. And Parker House Virtual Services, who provides virtual assistance and social media support for small to medium-sized businesses. Email Deborah Parker at deborahparker78@gmail.com for more information. To become a sponsor or advertiser on our program, email us at mediarelations@sheddingthebitch.com. Shedding the Bitch Radio airs every Tuesday at noon Eastern time. Be sure to go to blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitchradio and follow the program for all the updates and announcements of our guests and show topics. Now let's return to Bernadette and Shedding the Bitch Radio.

Welcome back everyone to our conversation regarding turning the tables on workplace bullying, and we have an awesome guest with us today, Dr. Lynn Curry. She is the president of the Growth Company, a human resources and management consulting firm based in Anchorage, Alaska. I think this is our first guest from Alaska. Kari brings her clients a track record in management consulting, board, manager, and employee training, human resources, and organizational strategy consulting. Once a victim herself, Lynn has used her experience, education, and expertise to provide workplace bullying, discrimination and anti-harassment training, as well as she is the author of her latest book, Beating the Workplace Bully, which is available now through Amazon and Barnes Noble. So I want you to go out right now and look up Beating the Workplace Bully. And at the same time, before I say hello, I want you to go to thegrowthcompany.com and check out all of her resources and Lynn herself. But Lynn, welcome from Anchorage, Alaska. How are you?

Hey, thank you very much. And I'm really enjoying the concept of shed the ditch. In other words, shed what you don't want to have, and that totally relates to bullying. And as you were talking about it, I was thinking of what your listeners might really find jazzy, and that's how to really get the bully out of their mind. And probably everybody would agree that bullies, their poison, their verbal insults seep into your mind and actually control you at a primary level sometimes. They attack your own sense of self and feed off your reaction. So it— great. So it becomes how do you handle that and how do you step into your power? How do you find the courage to express what you want to say and how do you, if you've in the past been bullied, how do you completely turn that around? So I'm so open to your questions.

Right. Absolutely. And I do— yeah, go ahead.

Well, Bernadette, do you want me to launch into the types of bullying or do you want to wait for the first question or where are you?

Yeah, no, no, no. I'll provide kind of the— I'll help facilitate you and the discussion. Because what I want to kick off with is kind of you mentioned in your intro that you were once a victim yourself. And obviously that did propel you into wanting to get into this area. So could you just share with us, let all of our listeners get to know Dr. Lynne Curry before we dive into all the mechanics about kind of what did you deal with and then how did you deal with it yourself and therefore lead into what it is that you're doing today?

Absolutely. It started early on from childhood and I think a lot of people who are targets in the workplace started by being targeted in childhood and the same antics that go on in a schoolyard then— that we need to help our kids with then happen in the workplace and even though I created I created my own business, I wound up inadvertently hiring people who did the same kind of bullying, aggressive manipulation that you would expect out of your boss. I married a bully and I had to figure out what was going on, how was I participating in that, how was I choosing them, how to turn that around, and as I began to do that, I had I had more and more clients who came because I write a weekly newspaper column, and that's one of the things that some of your listeners might be interested in. We have a blog called WorkplaceCoachBlog.com and another one called BullyWhisperer.com and write articles every week that say, here's how to do something, and sort of a workplace Dear Abby. And one thing that happened was people would come into my office and say, "I really need some individual coaching. I have this bully boss. I have this bully employee. I have this bully coworker. What do I do?" And I would give them help. And they would call back the next week and say, "Boy, that changed my life. I tried that out. That worked." And it was simple things. It was how to turn the tables on a bullying comment. For example, one woman, every time she— walked up to give a presentation in her organization, the guy who was her competitor for a promotion who would sit next to the front of the table would whisper something like fat thighs to her, which would totally throw her off her game, and she would wind up, even as she was presenting a topic that was financially related, wind up thinking My thighs are fat. So she came one day and said, what do I do? And I said, the next time he makes a comment to you, turn it on him with a question that completely embarrasses him so when you present you can feel the victory of that. So we brainstormed anything he might say and 2 weeks later when she walked up to the podium And he said, "Fat butt." She turned and said— asked him a question, which was, "And how does that matter to you?" And all the people around her and he laughed, and he was the one who sat embarrassed as she launched into her presentation and hit a home run. What we need to learn how to do is how to turn the tables on the bully, how to get the bully out of our mind, how to change things so that the bully doesn't see us as easy pray anymore.

Right. Is it— okay, and I kind of want to back up a little bit, but we'll finish here in saying, is it that we're looking to embarrass them, or we're just looking to have them recognize that their comments are not going to kind of ascend and penetrate us, and therefore we're going to call them out on it? Not whether that— if his outcome is being embarrassed, that's one thing. But do you see what I'm trying to say? Is it really to embarrass or we're just trying to stand up to them and get them to recognize that they're not going to, they're not going to offend you?

Great question. It is not to embarrass the other person. It is not necessarily even to stand up to them. It is to stand up for yourself and it is to make sure that they realize you are not easy prey and it is—

Right.

—to not lose yourself in the interaction and not become someone other than you are. To actually become who you are in the workplace, showing up as yourself so that a bully who's trying to take you out or make you the butt of a joke or slander you or intimidate you doesn't rule your workplace or rule you. Right.

Absolutely. Okay. So backing up just a tad, let's get everybody's head around what a bully looks like and what bullying really is or isn't because I think, you know, some people, you know, I often ask, as to how do you define what a bully looks like, especially in the workplace. Because you made a comment earlier about the, you know, what you would expect from your boss, but at the same time, that's not even kind of— you wouldn't even expect your boss, who's supposed to be a leader, to have any characteristics of being a bully. So in your mind, what does a bully look like that people on this listening to the program should keep in mind?

Absolutely. Bullying is psychological violence. It's someone who repeatedly, intentionally is trying to intimidate or humiliate you. Many people might bully. Many people might say something really strong to you. That's not bullying. Bullying is when there's this pattern of intentional undermining, and it can happen in 3 forms. There is verbal bullying, which is ridiculing, insulting, name-calling, slandering, making you the butt of mean jokes or offensive, abusive comments, which ultimately saps your mental and physical energy. Or in some workplaces— Whoa. —it's physical bullying. And then there is the COVID kind of bullying, which is the situational bullying, the sabotage, the— what this gentleman was doing to her as she got up to present. So— Or— Potential interference with you, maybe trying to whisper things to your coworkers or to your employees or to your boss that put you in a negative light. Because sometimes what happens is you're bullied because you represent a promotional opportunity, your job does, to the bully, and they figure they'll take you out. Right.

Right. Yep. Great. Okay. So we have the various types of bullying and let me also dissect into that because, you know, everybody knows if they've ever been part of the Shedding the Bitch community that I, at one point in my life, for too long, and I'm not proud of it but I use it to teach and educate now, is I would be deemed, I would have been deemed a bully and I was deemed a bully for quite some time. And what we need to understand is what are the extremes of bullying? Because like you said, let the bully, you know, get the bully out of your mind. Because, you know, there's many of us, especially with social media, you know, they're judging, they're hiding behind computer keys, they're doing things that they may not say, oh, that's not bullying. Because I certainly said that to myself. That's not bullying. So what would you say is the not so adverse, but what would you say is kind of even the common things that people do whether at work or at home and it is bullying even though they may not want to acknowledge that? Because I think everybody on this listening to the program needs to recognize if they have any of these tendencies within themselves because it only, you know, unless they do that will we be able be able to change the effects of bullying. What would you say to them?

Again, it's a great question, though I'm going to come at it a little bit differently, which is to say we might bully, which is we might try to undermine or insult someone else, but that doesn't make us a bully. A bully is doing it intentionally and repeatedly. It is— One of the things about you, Bernadette, that I've already noticed is you have a conscience. And what is true is bullies from early on learn that they can get what they need and want out of other people by pushing hot buttons. Now, you may have, as you were moving up the status in your organization, pushed buttons, or you may sometimes with your interviewees push buttons to create something. But that doesn't mean you would enjoy it or you would intentionally do it or you would do it repeatedly. A bully is doing it once for effect. A bully does it again and again and again. And it might help to realize the types of bullying. For example, there are the forms of bullying, the verbal, the physical, the sabotage. There are the types. Right. For example, there's the angry, aggressive jerk who blames and demeans and belittles and fault-finds. And that's probably the most common type. And then there is the character assassin who tells destructive stories and defames other people, or the silent grenade who rules the workplace because he or she looks like he or she might blow up. And we get around that bully maybe in a staff meeting or maybe that's our boss, and we see the jaw tightening and the, lips whitening and we get scared. Yeah. Another type of bully is the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the person who is so charming to everybody else but us, who can actually create a lot of havoc in the workplace because the charming Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde coworker can make the boss love them and then mention funny little things about his or her coworkers that— Right. —change how the boss views them. There's the narcissist who feels rules don't apply to them and doesn't mind creating damage to his or her coworkers. And they think the world revolves around them. So You might have reached an agreement with the narcissist and thought everything was great, and all of a sudden they completely unraveled their agreement. There's the scorched earth fighter who will pull out all the stops to destroy you, and for them it's not enough that they win, but you've got to lose. Right. And another common type that I named the rhino, having watched a National Geographic movie where I watched how the rhino galloped and roared with vengeance, is that ill-tempered, when disturbed, individual in the workplace who really wants to run things, including you. And back to your initial question, Bernadette, I don't think you were trying to dominate everyone. I think you were just trying to move things forward, which meant that maybe you used a bullying tactic but not that you were a bully.

All right.

Well, I won't even go to defend myself in that arena. However, okay, so if anybody sees any characteristics of those things that you just described, because that was a good delineation between, you know, what somebody might think is a bully but what bullying really is. That's awesome. That is great. So how prevalent— I mean, beyond the statistics that I read from your— that I read in the intro, how prevalent is workplace bullying? And when I say that too is how acceptable is it? Like, are organizations doing anything about it, do you find in your work?

I think it's incredibly acceptable in the workplace, which is horrid. There are 3 states, California, Nevada, and Utah— no, Tennessee— that have some law against bullying in the workplace, but for the most of the rest of the U.S., because folks think they can't define bullying and because they don't know how to get their arms around it, Bullying happens. Now, some organizations have a code of conduct against bullying, but that's rarely enforced. And generally, how do you prove somebody else has bullied you? So bullying happens all the time. When we teach courses, we teach annually many organizations anti-harassment courses and EEO discrimination courses. And lately we've been throwing in the fact that we can cover bullying. And I've noticed that 80% of all the questions that we get during the course of the course relate to bullying. I think folks want to know how to handle it, and if your organization won't help you, it winds up being you who has to figure out how to handle it. And that's the catch-22. You might expect your manager or your employer to fix it, but they might not know believe it's happening. They might not see it because it's not happening to them. And even if they know it's happening, what exactly do they do?

Right, right. Well, and I'll throw another one out there is, um, is it, you know, if even if they see it but that's a high-producing individual, they choose not to do anything about it.

Absolutely, there's that bully exemption where the CEO will say, "Gee, that's not the guy I know," or say what you might, "That person produces results." So if the bully is a high performer, the bully can get away with murder. Yep, it's so true.

It is. Well, let's hope it's not literally murder. Murder, but yes, that is very, very true. So what, Lynn, in your area of expertise and work that you do, where is it fitting? Where is workplace happening? Is it at the employee level, so it's an employee with an employee, like at the staff level? Is it peers, like manager peers, and/or going down to their team members, or is it like the big guy? Who is then trickling down? Where is the biggest area of workplace bullying going on?

There isn't a biggest area. There are women who bully and men who bully. There are employees who bully and bosses who bully. There are coworkers who bully. So bullying happens throughout the workplace. Not everyone bullies, of course, but enough bullying happens that when surveys are done and people are asked, "Have you been bullied at work recently? Have you witnessed bullying at work recently?" The statistics you quoted at the beginning of the program are true and valid, which 3 to 4 of us witness or experience bullying. And the question is, how can we become one of the other 6 of the 10 and not one of the ones who's the direct victim? Right, right, right.

Well, we're going to get to— and I definitely want to talk about obviously, you know, what the victims can do. But I think too, there's this element of the bystander or the witness that, you know, like your statistics state, that there is 30— no, 28 million of us witness workplace bullying. Now, of that 28, what percentage of that do you think are those that step in and do something or just simply kind of, you know, turn a blind eye because of fear of retaliation or fear of confrontation? What do you see in that regard?

All of the surveys show that most witnesses don't do anything. And that is— that is something that really needs to change. To change because there's truly no witness protection. If you're watching someone else be bullied, most bullies are serial bullies and you could be the next one. The other piece is that it erodes something in you to watch someone else be bullied and have you do nothing. And your silence sends a message. Your silence sends a message to the victim or the target that you don't matter enough for me to step in. And it sends a message to the bully, "I'm going to watch what you do and I'm going to tolerate it." And you don't want to send that silent message. What you really want to do is intervene and as soon as you intervene, you say, "That's not okay. That's not the way I want my workplace to be." And you send something even more important to you personally, which is, "I'm not easy prey," because bullies tend to— to test you and see are you prey or not. And that's a test you want to fail.

Yep, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. All right, so that brings us kind of full circle. Now, you know, I would, I would say to everyone listening out here, um, well, first off, you have to go to thepromisedcompany.com and look up information, um, in regards to Lynn and the work that she and her team does And at the same time on Amazon and Barnes Noble, you know, check out the book Beating the Workplace Bully. Whether you are a manager concerned about this area, maybe you're the victim, maybe you are a bystander and you just don't know any, you know, mechanisms or any strategies, and we're going to talk about some, but check out Beating the Workplace Bully, which is on Amazon and Barnes Noble as well. And then, of course, you know, Lynn, just like all of our experts, are quite engaging, and they share her knowledge and expertise very freely. So please go to Facebook. It's Lynn Curry Alaska, Lynn Curry Alaska. And that's Lynn with an E, so L-Y-N-N-E Curry. And then also her Twitter handle, I can never say that, Twittle, Twittle handle, Twitter handle is, I never had a lisp, but every time I go to say Twitter I do. Lynn Curry 10 is her Twitter. Twitter handle. And, of course, I did mention, if you have questions, challenges, or stories and you want to share them directly with Lynn, then you can, of course, go there. But if you want it even more privately, her email is Lynn@thegrowthcompany.com. Feel free to reach out directly to her. We don't need to know about it here in the Shedney Bits community. She's now your expert when it comes to workplace bullying. Don't not reach out if you're having an issue or you need some support or coaching. That's what she's here for. So, Lynn@thegrowthcompany.com. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to dive into the strategies and the tips that you could be doing to turn the tables on those workplace bullies because we have to work together. See something, say something. We have to learn strategies to Lynn's point about getting the power. Fully out of your mind, and we'll talk about that when we get back.

You are listening to Shedding the Bitch Radio with Bernadette Boas. We are inspiring individuals around the globe to discover, confront, and shed their bitches of fear, insecurity, and negativity so they can create the riches in their career, business, and life they deserve. Be sure to check out Bernadette's book, Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Shifting from Bitch to Rich in Life and Business, available on Amazon and sheddingthebitch.com. We also want to thank our sponsors, TSR Consulting, who offers a broad range of tax services for small to corporate size clients. Go to TSRConsulting.com to learn more. And Parker House Virtual Services, who provides virtual assistance and social media support for small to medium size businesses. Businesses. Email Deborah Parker at deborahparker78@gmail.com for more information. To become a sponsor or advertiser on our program, email us at mediarelations@sheddingthebitch.com. Shedding the Bitch Radio airs every Tuesday at noon Eastern time. Be sure to go to blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitchradio and follow the program for all of the updates and announcements of our guests and show topics. Now let's return to Bernadette and Shedding the Bitch Radio.

Welcome back everyone. We are talking about turning the tables on workplace bullying and what each and every one of us can do in coming together as a community and whether individual or gathering people around you. If you see it, you say something. If you're part of it, you do something. And then, you know, Lynn's going to share with us— our guest Lynn Curry of The Growth Company will share with us some tips and advice for you. So Lynn, you know, I love the fact that you were able to link what we do here at Shining a Bitch with Get Bullying Out of Your Minds because that's exactly what we're trying to do is get people to get all that junk out of their head that causes them to act out in certain ways and not be the best person that they can be. So what do you see as the characteristics of many of the victims? You had said that there's typical people that are targets, and what does that person look like so we can paint a picture for everybody out there? But then what can they do and what do you kind of what do you help people with in your coaching and your training to help them overcome being a victim?

Well, there are so many ways a person winds up being a target. You can be a target utterly through no fault of your own. You can simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could, and this is a real common theme that I find in the people come to me for coaching, You could have not noticed what was happening or thought, "Maybe I'm making this up," or, "I wonder what I did to provoke it." And so you've allowed the bully to do a few things, and now the bully thinks you're fair game. You could be one of those individuals who has something the bully wants. Maybe it's your reputation. Maybe it's your place in the organization. Organization chart. Maybe it's your friendship. You could be someone who the bully considers a threat. You could—and this is a frequent theme—be someone who the bully decides lacks allies. If you've ever seen a wolf—and here I am from Alaska—a wolf when they come into a caribou horde—herd—will take out the weakest calf. You could look like you're somebody with not enough allies. Maybe you're somewhat isolated in the workplace. Maybe you're a new employee. And then the bully decides, "My friend wanted that job. I don't want you to have it, so let me get rid of you quick." And here's the primary one that undercuts all of us. You could be somebody who the bully underestimates, because most of us have a lot more personal power than we use, and a bully will underestimate you. Your ability to stand up to them. And you asked such a great question earlier, Bernadette. Are you intending to embarrass the bully? Not at all. You're simply intending to stand up for yourself. Right.

And that's why— what I thought you meant and what I really want everybody out there to hear from Lynn is this is all about you standing up for yourself and not allowing this to happen to you, but at the same time, to those bystanders, I would say, Lynn, wouldn't you agree that to bystanders, you too need to work on getting the bully out of your head so you're willing to step in and do something? Would you agree with that, Lynn? Absolutely.

Most of us, we're kind of like Bambi in the headlights in the car. We can't imagine that someone in front of us said something so rude to someone else or was so mean or so nasty. We just wind up speechless, and my theory is the fastest thing you can say if something inappropriate happens in front of you is, "Pardon me?" As if you can't believe that happened.

Right. So that's a tactic you're recommending is that someone just kind of says, "Pardon me?" That's good.

Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things I teach a lot of people come to me for coaching is real quick responses to bullying that happens again and again. So there are classic things a bully will say to you and you could say things like, "Nice bait," "Game over," "Not going to play that game," or you can— and this is my personal favorite— you can turn the tables on the bully by asking a question because if the bully slams you you or someone else in front of you and you only respond to the slam, the bully has set a game in motion and you're playing the game. What if you ask the bully a question and then the bully answers your question? You have immediately taken control of that confrontation. So if a bully says, "This is not what I expected," and you ask, "Well, what is it you expected?" and they answer. You're in control. If the bully says, "You look like a dog," and you say, "What breed?" you have just taken control.

That's actually very good. Would you also recommend a question like such as, you know, let's just use the word Joe for Joe's sake. Would you also recommend saying something like, "So Joe, did you not get out of—" you know, Did you not have your coffee this morning? Or did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Joe? You know, are those types of comments relevant?

Absolutely, because that says, Joe, you were being really inappropriate, but I'm not going to be nasty to you. I'm just going to call you for what it is. It is basically shining the light on the bully.

Yeah.

Yep. Yep. Okay, cool. All right. What other things could people keep in mind when they're dealing with— because the workplace is just— it's uncalled for, but yet it is so prevalent, and we all can come up with 3 reasons why we think it is that, you know, tie into what you're talking about. So what, you know, what are some other things we could be doing? Especially, let's look at, like, if we could, a manager if we want to look at like what can a boss be doing about it, what can a peer do to a peer, and then what does an employee do when their boss is the one being the bully and they feel that they can't do anything about it because it's their boss and they don't want to lose their job.

I'm going to start with the employee, the person who might be the reader— listener right now, and to say that it really does start with you. What you want to do is get your game face on because the bully is assessing you and if you blush or stammer or turn white or turn red, you're actually rewarding the bully. Also, one of the common traps is to deny what's going on or to get sucked into the bully's game where you plead with the bully or you get angry yourself. You don't want to stoop to the bully's level because then you look like the bad person. And bullies have years of fighting dirty, and you're going to regret it. If the bully is your boss, expecting the bully to change on his or her own is a real trap, because bullies don't need to change. What they've done for years works for them really well. So it starts with you. You're assessing what's going on. Is this how you want to be treated? And then you're figuring how to change the dynamic. The bully has made some level of preemptive attack. What do you do that isn't defensive or tongue-tied? How do you respond and say, "Nice try," or "Give it a rest," or "What's your point?" And when you step back and look at it from that perspective, with the situation, and if you're being insulted, you simply declare the truth. You don't let the bully take you apart piece by piece. You have just handled it well. If it's your boss who's the bully, you don't want to go toe-to-toe with the boss, because the boss has all the power. You might choose to work with the boss in terms of— turning the boss into an ally. Seeing the good things the boss does and assisting the boss, uh, in terms of his or her goals or even ambitions. And notice that once the boss decides you're one of, uh, the people he or she trusts, they might change how they handle you. And, uh, You might also keep your eyes on the exit door and look for a new job. And certainly know your legal rights. If the person bullying you is your employee, they'll often distort your reputation to your other employees. So build your relationships with your other employees and definitely don't let the bully run the show in your department. If you're trying to get your manager to change things, realize that if you— the more reasonable you act, the better you are, because you want to seem credible when you bring the message to your boss. And bullies often produce great results for an organization. So when you're bringing the message to your boss, think the whole thing through, have some documentation, and have it be a conversation with your boss. If you simply present a problem to your boss with no solution, they frequently will shoot the messenger.

Sure.

Well, and I— that particular one is is I think very, very, very, very key because I've talked about it in the past that since these people are high-producing, had someone come to me and sat me down— so I want everybody to relate to this as what Lynn is saying— and said, "Hey, look, Bernadette, just between you and I, with all the great work that you're doing, you're severely jeopardizing that because of X, Y, and Z." and I think it's real key what you said about being specific, having facts, doing your homework, putting a problem and a solution in that conversation because had somebody sat me down and really laid out the risk I had to my advancement and to my overall career, I might not have changed right away, but I would have at least listened and paid attention to that, and I think that's what you're what you're saying, right, is to kind of feed off their ego, feed off their goals, feed off their ambitions to kind of have a conversation with them. Is that right? Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Although I'm sure many people are sitting out there going, "I'm not really sure how to do that." And that's why I want you to get her book. Beating the Workplace Bully. Go on to Amazon and Barnes Noble to check it out.

But go ahead. Well, let me explain what the book does. I'm a trainer. That's what I do in real life. So in two areas, one was weight loss and the other bullying, I thought, okay, both have been my problems. How do I fix them? And I designed a training program for me in both areas. How do I lose weight? Which is something I did in my 40s and I've never been overweight since. And then in my 50s, because I'm an oldie, I thought, okay, I've had interactions with bullies all my life. I'm helping my clients with bullying. How, on a step-by-step basis, do you turn bullying around? So what I did is I wrote a book. It's about 250 pages and at the end of each chapter are very practical exercises. Like early on, Bernadette, you keyed into this not having the bully have an outpost in your mind. You know, we wouldn't let someone step on our foot. How come we let them step on our mind? It's your mind. The bully doesn't own it. They try to rent space in it. You are the landlord. How do you get them out of your mind? And so I teach things in the book, and I say try this exercise. Try that exercise, and suddenly people try an exercise and then it changes the next day at work how they interact. I'm just going to give you all, your listeners, a quick example of how quickly your mind comes into play and ask you all to think of what color is snow. And even as you think of what color is snow, call out the answer answer, and you may just have called out the answer white. Now, what do cows drink? What do cows drink? And you may suddenly be thinking milk, except cows don't drink milk, they drink water. So our mind gets in there, and we have patterns of behavior. So if everybody could right now, unless they're driving a car, cross their arms They'll notice that either their left or their right hand comes over the top of their arm if they cross and pretzel their arms. And now, now that you know which hand comes over the top, it's either your right or your left, recross your arms so your other hand comes over the top. And as you try that, you may think, "That doesn't feel quite right." That's what is true about us. We're in habits of thinking. We're in habits of behavior. And what I teach in Beating the Workplace Bully is how to change your habits of behavior just slightly. You do not have to change who you are. You don't even have to confront every bully. You simply have to change enough patterns of behavior that the person who's bullying you decides, "I'll bully somebody else." And then— Yeah. If you happen to occupy a space in the workplace where you've got some power, you're in HR, you're a manager, maybe you can change the bully because I've coached a lot of Darth Vaders over the last 10, 15 years and they've all come out kinder, gentler Darth Vaders.

Wow. Well, and I was asked a long time ago I was like, "Do you really believe that a bully can change?" And I'm like, "Absolutely. Absolutely." And that's what you're saying.

Bullies can absolutely change. You have to make a case to them for how come they should change. And since bullying works for them, you can't make the case in terms of, "This isn't the right way to be," because now you're attacking them as a person. You can't make the change in terms of, in terms of these are the negative consequences to others because the bully may or may not care. We all listen to the same program, WIFM, what's in it for me. So you want to make the case to the bully of how they will benefit if they make a change. And I'm going to say that most of the people who organizations have sent to me to turn them around because they've been a bully or another type of jerk, when I've interviewed them, I've said, "Try this and not this. Here's what I see you doing. Try it this way." They've all come back for session 2 and said, "You know, my wife says to say thanks," or, "Oh, I tried that with my kids and it was good." So every bully has people in their lives who they care about, and when they learn different behaviors to use with that person, they then have a vested interest in trying those behaviors with many others.

Wow. Wow. Well, before we run out of time, I definitely want to ask you about the one thing that you talked about, and that is— You said that you want to recognize, you know, these traps or these bullies because a lot of times it's happening before you even realize it's happening. Could you kind of go into that a little bit deeper as far as what you mean by that and then what are those traps or signs?

A bully will say something to you and you will sit there and think, did that person They didn't really say that. They made an innocuous statement. I know a good example. This came to me from a client. She started a new job. She really wanted to be liked. And as she went to her desk, a coworker said, "By the way, there's a great coffee stand in the lobby." And she said, "Oh, okay." And the coworker said, "That's where we all get our coffee." And she says, "Oh, great. I'll go get a cup now. Can I get you one?" And the coworker said, "Yes, I want a grand latte with whatever." And so she brought her coworker a cup of coffee along with hers. And the next day, the coworker said, "Could you get me a latte again?" And she said, "Sure." So she brought back 2 cups of coffee again. And the 3rd day, she said, "You know, that was $3.75." And the coworker said, "Oh, I thought you were just giving it to me." She was expecting that every time she brought a cup of coffee, the coworker would reciprocate, but the coworker had no intention of doing that. Right.

Oh, that is a great example. That is a great example. Oh my gosh. All right, well, we have a couple more minutes. I really— like, what would be the top of mind, our listeners need to know this in order to turn the tables on these workplace bullies once and for all?

Top of mind is that bullying is a two-way interaction. You can't be bullied if you refuse to participate. You can refuse to play by the bully's rules. If you you don't play along with how the game the bully sets in motion, you change the whole interaction. And also top of mind, we created a website. My friend, who happens to be a trial litigator in his past life, Rick Birtzel and I, called www.bullywhisperer.com and We also— and if you go to bullywhisperer.com, you can see a lot of other people's stories about bullying and what they did about it. You can share your story and get some support. The other website that lists all of my articles for free, because I write— since 1982, I've written a weekly Dear Abby of the workplace column. In several newspapers, and I also write for SheKnows.com and WomenWorking.com and LawOfficeManager.com and MedicalOfficeManager.com and the AMA Playbook. I write all over the place. One of the blogs that lists all of our more traditional columns is www.WorkplaceCoachBlog.com, so work— placecoachblog.com. And you can get tons of free advice. You can email me, Lynn@thegrowthcompany.com. You can call us, 907-276-4769. If you ever forget that number, it's 276-GROW because I run the Growth Company. You can just get access really easily. And Bernadette, I'm going to turn it back to you because I know I'm just about out of time. Right, yes.

No, that's all right. I was watching and keeping things under control. That's wonderful. I really appreciate all of that, and yes, our listeners, I really want you to please go check out her book, "Reading in the Workplace Fully," on Amazon or Barnes Noble. I'll leave her Listing out all those other blog sites, I was trying to scribble as fast as I could, but I might not have gotten all of them. I did hear WorkplaceCoach.com and BullyWhisperer.com. And then, of course, Facebook and Twitter should you want to reach out to her. I want to thank you, Lynn, so much for your time. This has been a great conversation, and we should all band together, and our community certainly takes the lead. Lead in banding together to shed the workplace bully, and I want to appreciate— I want to thank you for taking the time to share your stories with them.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, and Bernadette, I'm going to email you those blogs, and I really hope people do write or call. The other book I wrote is called Solutions, and if you go on Amazon and put my name, Solutions will pop up as well as Beating the Workplace Bully. Oh, and Beating the Workplace Bully is also on audio. It's on CDs read by a really sexy French lady.

Beautiful. Hey, nothing like when you're reading or listening to workplace bullying, it's in French or with a French lady. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, thank you again, Lynn. It was fabulous having you. And everybody, be sure to check out all that information. We'll make sure that it gets posted with her recording on ShittingTheBitch.com. Of course, you can come back to BlogTalkRadio.com/ShittingTheBitchRadio to also download the episode. Thank you again, Lynn. And next week we're going to have a special rich Tweet Tip Tuesday next week because of the Fourth of July here in the States. So get your stories, questions, and challenges out on Facebook or Twitter, and we're going to bring them right here and drill into all of your questions with yours truly, and Deborah will be hanging out with us. And be sure to get those out there so we can address any of your business, career, or life questions. I want to thank everybody for listening today, and of course, each and every week. We'll be right back here Tuesday of next week at noon Eastern time. And for those of you celebrating Independence Day, have a fabulous, safe, and fun week. And everybody else, have a rich and prosperous week from everybody here at Shedding the Bitch Radio. We'll talk to you real soon. Bye everybody.

Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to Shedding the Bitch Radio with Bernadette Boas. Boas. Join Bernadette every Tuesday at noon Eastern as she helps you shift your bitches to riches. And the dialogue is always going on at sheddingthebitch.com. See you next week.