Hating The View From The Top with ALLISON FRYE

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Have you ever been told that you're perfect for the next level, but you're too nice? Or that you have to become more of a bitch in order to be successful? If women continue to have to change who they are to be successful, corporate culture will never truly get better. The things that make us who we are are the reasons we can make positive change. Unfortunately, we are expected to change those things about ourselves in order to break through the glass ceiling. Today I'm talking with Allison Frye of Allison in Wonderland, and she's joining me to discuss how women can remain exactly who they are and at the same time find the riches in their career and work that they love. Help me welcome to the show Allison. Allison, how are you?

I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really excited to talk to you today.

Oh, you're so welcome. I love this subject because I've been there, I've done that, and it just kind of hit a nerve, hit a nerve with me. So we're talking about hating the view from the top, and so many women out there, that's what they're striving for. That's what they're, you know, just clawing their way up the corporate ladder in order to achieve. So what was your experience to where, you know, you now have a foundation of conversation, of tips and strategies around hating the view from the top?

Yeah, absolutely. So I've spent 20 years in marketing. I kind of fell into it and then just kind of gradually moved up. I did notice, you know, 20 years ago, no one was talking about corporate culture or anything like that. And I think people were a little bit more aware that women were lower on the totem pole, but weren't talking about it as much as they are now. So, you know, we're, we're still in the spot that we're in, but at least people have some knowledge that, okay, this needs to be fixed. There's more exposure online. There are women professionals able to talk to each other, but I know even early in my career, I look very young for my age, and I would never even mention that I had children in an interview. I would get to the first day of, you know, a job and put up the pictures of my kids, and people would be like, you have children? Because they would feel like when you're interviewing for a job and you have children, then you're obviously just going to not be reliable, and you're constantly going to be out. So I would very carefully not mention that I had children, and people would just assume she's too young. To have children anyways, no big deal. And so I kind of, my career was a little slow at the beginning because my husband did bring in all of the money. So I would have to be the one that would have to, you know, take off, or if we moved for his career, I would leave a job and then, you know, kind of start over, which is, it's great that he was able to provide for everyone, but then, you know, I, yeah, I mean, it's great, but I'm thinking that maybe most people's careers don't take 20 years to reach the, a C-level executive role. I also am a very empathetic person. I want to be 100% my authentic self and very honest. I like to nurture and help other people grow, which means I was never going to be one of those women that climbed over other women in the office to try to get ahead. And sometimes that meant that I was the one being climbed over. And I just, I did not want to sacrifice that part of myself to get ahead in my career. But recently, in 2019, I did secure that executive level, you know, marketing role. And it's really interesting. Every time I interview with anyone, I get towards the end and I'm like, okay, you've seen my resume, we've talked. What's the one thing that you think that maybe I'm lacking that I can address, you know, for you? In that position that I started in 2019, The owner of the company's response to that question was, "You're a perfect fit, but you— I'm worried you are too nice for the tough conversations." And, you know, at that point, I was like, you know, I've been a manager for years. I know how to discuss performance issues. What I did not realize was that at that company, just about every conversation you had was a tough conversation. And it continued to be one of those issues where, Instead of being able to lift up my team and the things that they were doing, I was told that I needed to highlight everyone's success as my success in order to succeed in the business. I was told that I really needed to be more stern with the team where I was definitely more of a mentor and a servant leader, and that was the type of leader I wanted to be. Right. And it really came at great sacrifice to my personal mental health, which is my passion. Mental health is my passion. And I reached this point where, when I first started this job and I would interview people, I absolutely believed, yes, the corporate culture is great because I was making all of these changes within my departments. And when I finally reached the point where I was like, okay, I can't work here anymore, it was because I was interviewing people. We went through this great resignation. I was constantly interviewing people to join the team. To backfill other people. And I realized that the things that I was saying were all lies. That yes, I had been told, and I believed at the beginning, that leadership really did care about the company and the team and the progress, but that was just what they said. It was not how they expected us to work as leaders within the company with the team. And I did not want to be a liar. I did not want to con people into a job that sacrificed their mental health. So I reached the top of the corporate ladder and I hated what they wanted me to be in order to succeed at that level. I am sure there are businesses out there that don't feel that way, but I have worked in a lot of boys' clubs and a lot of places that promote women to leadership positions specifically to be able to highlight, we have 35% senior leadership of women and, you know, to talk about those things. But that's not really the place that they have. I was in leadership meetings that were supposedly the leadership meetings, and then a couple of the other women that were in those executive positions, and I realized that the rest of the leaders that were not women had separate leadership meetings outside of those without any of the women. So it was very eye-opening, and I reached this point where I was like, okay, I I am really amazing at what I do, but I'm gonna do it for someone that deserves my talents and my skills.

Right, right. Well, that is powerful and there's a lot to unpack there. I was scribbling as you were talking, so I'm gonna kind of go back from the beginning and then just ask the questions based on what it was that you— your story is just Sadly, your story is many women's stories out there. However, however, I will say that not as many of them have kind of reached and had the courage to make the decision that they are not going to compromise. I was one of those women that decided that I was going to compromise. So first off, the fact that you had a high, that you were a mom. Now we are talking a very different time, not to make excuses, because it happens still today. So, you know, you made the conscious decision, I'm just not going to mention that I'm a mom. I'm going to work off of my expertise and my resume, basically get the job because I'll be awesome at it. And then I'll start to share more of my, my personal side. What would you say to other women that are dealing with that same struggle? Would you recommend that same advice that you took for yourself in regards to, you know, kind of holding back, not lying, just holding back? And/or would you, because of the stance that you've taken in regards to, I'm not compromising, would you suggest to them, no, own your life, own who you are. And if they want you, they want you. And if they don't, then you're better off.

Yeah, I think it really depends on the person's situation. So, you know, I can say all of those things and also say that I, while I grew up with nothing, I am a little privileged at this point where my husband's very successful. And that is a terrible— I feel like that's really awful. I'm like, well, my husband's successful, so I can I can take a step back or I can be a little more picky. And that it really, it's like the inner feminist in me is like, gosh, that's a terrible thing, but it is there. But if you're absolutely reliant to support your family based on that job, then the decision to hold back in an interview may be really important. If I was to do it again, I probably would be more myself. But I'm talking about today in today's culture where people are able to work remote, people's babies and kids show up on camera all the time. My cats do. I mean, it's just one of those things that culture has changed a little, but then you also kind of have to read the room if you're on a Zoom call or in an interview with nothing but men around you talking about your kids or really talking about anything personal about your life gives this very feminine view, which men seem to— and I know I'm overgeneralizing, I'm not like hating on men— but those corporate leadership men very often feel like if you're oversharing, or they feel like sharing it all is oversharing. And so you really have to feel what is that balance for you. Do you want to kind of hold back and keep it close to the cards in the interview and then shine as yourself when you, you start the job because you have to have that job, or do you want the perfect job? And if you have the opportunity and you have the availability in your life to hold out for the perfect job and be able to be yourself, that is what I would recommend. At the stage that I'm in my life now, I am 100% my authentic self. On interviews, because if you don't want me based on the interview, I'm not going to be happy in this role and you're not going to be happy with me. But I have the ability to do that at this point in my life.

Right, right. Again, there's a lot to unpack there. First off, blessings to you that you are in the fortunate position that you have a successful husband, which you should not be ashamed of. You should not feel you know, less than because of— you should be very proud. And the fact that you could stay at home and choose to do that, and yet you want a career, your, your husband supports you with your career. All right. So I just had to say that. But I was like, no, no, no, that is such a blessing that you have. But to your point, others don't have that, that blessing, and therefore their choices may be different than yours. Now, you also made mention around that fact that, you know, you were told that you were too nice to be able to deal with the tough, you know, conversations and circumstances. When you say tough, are you saying that they're combative tough or that they're just challenging conversations that one must have, especially a leader? And they were questioning whether or not you were going to be able to step into that, or did they want you to be combative and they thought that, no, you're not going to be tough enough in order to be combative?

I think that when I had that interview, I felt like what they were saying was, if someone's performance is lacking, you're going to have a hard time with that, or if you have to fire someone because of performance, you're going to have an issue with that. And in my mind, I have always— and, or in my heart, I've always felt like if someone's not supporting the team, it's more of a detriment to the team to keep them on. So while it breaks my heart to fire someone, even if they deserve it, I want to protect the team as a whole. So I thought, oh, I can do that. Right. But it was very much, if there was an issue, you had to constantly be digging people, you know, like pushing them down. There was constant conflict and even conflict that was created in between the leaders of other departments. So it's amazing. I always talk about how the gossip mill and the rumor mill through remote work is so much bigger than I've ever seen in an office. And it would create all of these difficult situations. And it was like, okay, well, it's just that the women are not getting along. So let's, you know, let's fix it because the women aren't getting along. And then if there were any, you know, there was a lot of layoffs and we were showing them These are the statistics for a lot of willing churn of employees because everyone was getting that, you know, hot next job in 2022. It was like, you know, 7 jobs for every 1 job seeker. And it was very much, well, you need to bring people in and be stern from day 1. And I was saying, no, we need to give them a corporate culture that makes them want to stay.

Right.

And so, in my last 2 corporate leadership positions, I have invested so much time into the corporate culture because I'm told they want my feedback and my insight, and then none of the suggestions were brought up. So I was spending a lot of my, you know, extra— I say extra time, but when you're working 70 hours a week, it's really not extra time anyways, trying to make things better and then told, well, we're not really going to do that. That's not how we want to run the business.

So you believe that you did kind of and took all the angles you could to be able to be as authentic and as, you know, servant as you can be. And yet you did come to a wall of absolute resistance and stubbornness to change. And therefore that's what had you make a decision.

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, really it was The person I directly reported to, owner, the ownership of this company would not talk to me directly about it, but the person that I directly reported to would come back and tell me, I'm trying to save your job on a daily basis because, you know, they feel like you're not, you know, running the department in a really great way and you're doing this. My department had a 79% gross profit margin where other ones ran in the red. I'm like, what do you mean? Like my department's I carry the company, you know, I'm managing capacity. I'm doing all of these things and still working with the adjustment of the inflated salaries that people are getting. But they couldn't even have the conversation directly with me. It went through someone. So it seemed, you know, very much like this is an issue. There was an issue. I've only in my entire 20-year career, I've had 2 employees work under me that have had an issue with me. And in this last position, the fact that I came in and did— I was hired in instead of someone being promoted up into the position, and it created conflict. And instead of letting, you know, me work directly with that direct report the way I would and the way that I would nurture the relationship and repair the relationship, they required mediated HR sessions because women just can't sit and have those conversations without there being a risk of hysterics. And so it's very stressful. Yeah.

So do you have any recommendations for women when it comes to breaking down and transforming those mindsets as far as how one demonstrates or behaves? Do you have any recommendations as far as what women can do if they're dealing with the same type of A wall?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that what makes us women and what makes us stronger— because let's face it, there was a time where women were revered because we're the ones that create life and we're the, the ones that actually keep the society nurtured. And now we're trying to fight to get to where we're, you know, actually seen on the same level. But I think the things that make us innately women are the feelings and the emotions. And so obviously you do not want to get extremely emotional when you're working with people, but connecting with them on a human level, being empathetic. And those are the things that, you know, we may do in our regular life, but shy away from because we don't want to look weak and we don't want to look like we aren't this strong position of authority. And I think that you can be a position of authority and still, you know, have genuine conversations with your team because no one's a better person than anyone else or deserves more respect than anyone else based on an org chart. You have to earn respect. The org chart means nothing. I don't care where you're at on it. We all deserve the same amount of respect and we need to behave that way.

Right. How do you define empathy? Because I think that's a, that's a word that's being thrown around these days. And I don't know that a lot of leaders are really intentionally sitting down to say, do I even understand? And there's no fault to not understanding what it is, but do I really understand what empathy is and then how to apply it in the workplace?

Yeah, absolutely. So I have two degrees in psychology and I've taken probably every personality test that's out there during those, those courses. And empathetic is always one of those traits. And so I think that when you look at it in that context, it's a, a trait that people have. Um, you can try to nurture it and grow it. Um, but I used to always say I'm cursed with the gift of empathy because it means I'm carrying other people's things with me. But if you're looking at it from, okay, this isn't a natural thing for me to do. It's really active listening. And instead of constantly thinking of what your reply is going to be while someone is talking, it's really listening to what they're saying and then helping them in the situation based on like meeting them where they're at and acknowledging the way they feel. So the person that was upset with me in that position, I had to take a step back and realize that I felt like I was taking stuff off of their plate. So they weren't having to work all of these extra hours a week. I'd rather work 70 hours a week than make other people work overtime. And to that person, they had been doing all of this work in the department and I was taking things away as if I didn't trust them to do things. So I had to step back and be like, okay, in my mind I'm helping, but I did not realize that to them it meant that I didn't trust them to be an authority on the team. So really meeting them where they're at.

How does someone find out? That's a great example. That's a great example of leaders needing to recognize and be self-aware of the impact they are having on their people in the words, their actions, in their behavior. And so what did you do? To then, or if you weren't given a chance, what would you do? To then make sure that that individual understands that you recognize them, you recognize their fear or their insecurity, and therefore their angst that they're potentially feeling, and, you know, coming to a solution around it.

Yeah, it did take a little bit longer in that situation since we were not allowed to talk individually. So once we did get past these mediated sessions where I guess the company didn't feel like there was going to be a risk of being sued or anything like that, I did start to see what the issue was and that, you know, they wanted to help. They wanted to be an overachiever and work, you know, just kind of the— that was their style. It's my work style. And so instead of constantly delegating task, I would be very much like, "I am really, really busy. Could you take this off my plate? I understand if you can't, but it would be really helpful." So really letting them know that I was being genuine in that, but it was kind of outside of my nature to say, "I know you've got 40 hours worth of work, but can you help me with this other project?" And that's what I did because that was what that person needed to know that they were still, you know, someone trusted in the department. Where I, I was trying to be like mama bear nurturing, and I always want to protect people's time, but that wasn't what they needed. They needed to know that I trusted them. So I started delegating more, which helped me. I mean, I didn't have as much work to do. It was great.

Sure. How did you help them understand that when you were taking work from them, you weren't looking to diminish them or make them less valued? You were looking to kind of support them?

When I was finally able to really have an honest conversation with them, I was— I made it very clear. I just flat out said it. I said, you know, this position that I'm in has been open for 6 months. They've been trying to find the right person for it, which means that you and this one other person have been doing your jobs and what is supposed to be my job. And I felt like I needed to come in and once I got the lay of the land, which you helped me so much getting up to speed, I felt like I needed to take those things back so that you wouldn't continue to be overworked. I, I never meant that you couldn't do it and you weren't doing it the right way, but I kind of want to earn my keep and I wanted to do the things that I needed to do. So let's figure out what we each like to do the most and kind of figure out, you know, the balance and. I think that that conversation helped because it was very important to say it had no reflection of them. It was me trying to make sure that I was performing. I wasn't having this crazy imposter syndrome of, oh, I don't really belong in this position. And one of those things that women deal with so much because I was actually doing all of the things I told them I could do. Right.

Well, and I just love that. And there was so much meat in there if someone re-listens to this or re-watches it as far as how they can communicate with their people to get a better understanding and to be empathetic. And first observation would be none of that was weak. None of what you just explained makes it look as if, you know, either party is weak. So to think empathy or vulnerability makes one weak, that did not show up in that exchange. Wouldn't you say?

I definitely think that being empathetic is a strength. Right. It takes a lot on when you take on other people's hardships, but I would rather help carry someone's, you know, hardships than have them do it on their own. So that's part of empathy. And I think that that is how we get to the point of a great corporate culture. That's how we are really great leaders is By realizing that we all deserve the same amount of respect, by realizing that we can meet people where they are and we can interact with them where they are, because as leaders, we've got that experience where we should be able to meet other people where they're at that are, you know, our direct reports or other people in the company and not always make them come to where we're at because you've worked up to being the leader, you should know how to lead, you know, you should. And meeting other people where they're at and helping them, you know, in the position that they're at or on, you know, grow into the career that they want.

Right, right. That's it. That's it right there is leaders are meant to develop other people. They're not there to just dictate and dump and expect just, you know, those people who often they view as robots you know, to operate what it is that needs to get done. They're there to develop and grow people so they, they advance, their people advance. That was beautiful. But I also wanna highlight in the example that you used, that you walked through, is there was also a great deal of vulnerability on your part that again, if someone listened or watched that, would not say that that was weak or that was emotional or that was, you know, something that shouldn't be modeled and leveraged in the workplace. So I really would, to any of our listeners and viewers, to go back about 4 minutes and re-listen to her walkthrough of that scenario with her employee who was feeling, you know, maybe insecure and intimidated by the fact that— and devalued because of the fact that she was offloading work from them and how she handled that, because that was a perfect example of being an empathetic servant leader. So thank you, Allison. That was awesome. That was fabulous. Now, obviously, with all of that, You actually talked about a whole bunch of stuff, you know, I can talk. No, no, no, no. But around the fact that the mom issue, people wanting you to be climbing over other people, having to toughen up. And, you know, even the whole topic of our conversation about hating it at the top. You talk about the fact that, you know, people want you to be a bitch to be successful. And what was your greatest lesson through all of this around the fact of how that is so contrary to what any person— because guys can be bitchy too— any person should be bringing into the workplace?

Yeah, I really think being authentic is really important. That entire situation with that employee that ended up in the HR thing, it got escalated to the issue that it was because the person that was my manager that was telling me that leadership wanted to know what the heck I was doing and why I was there was in a Slack channel where this person kept questioning what I wanted to do. And he sent me a side Slack and said, you don't need to explain to her what you're doing. You just need her to do it. And so I was like, I, I'm busy. I'll explain to you this process later because it made me feel insecure and it made that imposter syndrome come up where they were just like, why are you sitting here letting this person question everything that you've got, you know, the team doing? Just tell them to do it. And I think that that is— I steered away from being my authentic self and it created 6 months of stress. And mental health issues, I think, for everyone involved. And I kind of go back looking at it, and I'm like, if I hadn't done that one thing, trying to prove that I was strong enough to have the difficult conversations and trying to prove that I could control a team of 30 people, which is what they wanted. And, you know, it's a bunch of adults. You don't control anybody. You can't control a toddler. How are I control 30 adults. So really just trying very much to stay yourself. Unfortunately, if yourself is a bitch, then you're gonna just—

No one's naturally— trust me when I say that's the whole premise of this show and who I am. No one's naturally like that. So that's what I was going to ask is someone being told just be yourself. Have you found that a lot of people don't really know who they are?

Absolutely. I mean, I, my youngest graduated high school in May and I've had to try to figure out what I want to do outside of also work, but I was, you know, on the drama board. I've, you know, been a theater mom for years. I've been room mom. I've done all of these things on top of it. And so in this empty nest phase, I have had to try to figure out who I am. That isn't just Allison the mother, Allison the wife, Allison the sister, Allison the daughter. And I'm realizing that if I am there at this point in my life, 20 years into my career, empty nesting it, how do people know who they are when they are all of those things? So it is a lot of trial and error and really just kind of figuring it out. And there are a lot of resources online and books that you can read about figuring out how to be the person that you want to be. You won't agree with all of those books. I mean, I've read a stack of leadership books, some of which were dictated to me by men to read, and I'm like, this is ridiculous. Why would I do this? But it teaches you how you don't want to be.

Yeah, I think you bring up a great point because that's what I have found. I mean, I was 45 when I finally said I need to kind of tap into who the heck I actually am because You know, forget the fact that I didn't— I really was realizing I didn't like who I was at that point, but more so. And the earlier you could do this work, right, the better. As far as asking yourself those questions of who are you, what's important to you, what are your values, what are your beliefs, who do you want to be, who do you not want to be? Because until you do that, you are showing up, wouldn't you say? You are showing up somewhat masked. If you know, if, and you're more vulnerable to, to be masked up, if you really aren't aware of who you truly are.

Yeah. It's a lot easier for them to shape who you are than for you to really know who you are. And I think that I came to this realization at 40. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, okay, I've spent 40 years not knowing who I was. In high school, I wanted to be the same person as the peer group and stuff like that. So it's a lifetime. Of trying to fit into the role that you're in and into this description of who the mom is supposed to be. So over-volunteering because you're supposed to be the room mom and you're supposed to do all of these things as well as work and be the wife and do all of these, these roles that we're given a description for and are supposed to fit into. So someone early in their career, early in their life, early in motherhood, if that's something that they're they want to be. I think taking time to really reflect on how you feel and how you want to be each day, just sitting down and, you know, doing a brain dump in the morning or in the evenings of just everything in your mind, kind of reflecting on that, you know, having a little bit of self-analysis of, okay, this is the way I've been. Is this making me happy? Mm-hmm. Yep.

I love it. I love it. In a minute or so, help us understand what your Psychological First Aid kit is. And anybody can download it at her website, which is alisoninwonderland.com, but then attach /pfa, and that's for Psychological First Aid, to that. So it's alisoninwonderland.com/pfa. But what is your Psychological First Aid guide?

Yes. So if you've ever been in a break room or a restaurant and you've seen that sign that has the Heimlich maneuver and you're or the steps for first aid. It's the same thing, only, you know, for mental health. So I think that women as leaders, they end up in these positions where there is a very stressful situation. There's mass layoffs. We've lost a team member to COVID, and that was very difficult. So Psychological First Aid has been created for people that are not mental health professionals, but that are in these,, you know, group surges is what they call them, of crisis response. And so there's only so many EMTs and things, and if someone's bleeding or there's been an explosion, obviously the medical personnel take care of that. But psychological first aid gives you the steps of really being in there. So it leads into the empathy, it leads into kind of seeing where people are at, how they feel, do they need to take further steps to get help. And so it's really just this 5-step system built by, uh, John Hopkins is where I took the course. And in my mind, I feel like it's a really great tool to have because anytime there's a major change, people can get thrown into a state of crisis. And I think that when we lean into what makes us powerful as women and that empathy, then having these steps can keep you kind of protected because, and I don't mean in like a legal way, but keep your heart protected because you know how to help. And when you feel prepared, or at least when I feel prepared to help, if those situations come up, then you can be more helpful and you won't come away from it with scars as much as you may.

I love that. Absolutely love that. All right. Psychological First Aid Guide. Get it at allisoninwonderland.com/psychologicalfirstaid. PFA. Thank you so much, Allison. This has been fabulous. I appreciate you sharing and being so open and vulnerable in regards to your story and how other women can avoid hating the view from the top. But thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Yes, thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.

Awesome. Wow. Now she is a powerhouse for sure. For sure. So what did you take away from it? What did you scribble down and make sure that you really kind of instill within your heart and your head in order to really ensure that you're not gonna hate the view from the top? Because you deserve, if that's what you want, to climb that ladder without everything that Allison talked about that she actually dealt with. So some takeaways from Allison is the fact that you have to be authentic. You have to be who you are. However, if you do not know who you are, then go and find resources around how you self-discover, self-assess who you are, who you want to be, what your values are, what's important to you. Also really understanding, because this was part of her story, was really understanding what you won't compromise on when it comes to being yourself, being a leader, and being within a culture that either is working for you or against you. Really understand what you will and will not compromise on., and then be true to yourself in regards to standing strong like she did in regards to those values and those wants and needs and beliefs. All right. Now, if you do need help in regards to self-assessing and really understanding who you are and how you're contributing or not contributing in your leadership role, and if there's any chance you are hating it from the top, then also book a call with me at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall. Let's discuss it. All right. We're gonna have all the show links and all of the links for Allison in our show notes. So be sure to check that out so you can learn more about her at her website. You can download her guide and you can see how she may be able to leverage her powerful story to help you love it at the top as opposed to hating it at the top. And always go to sheddingthecorporatebitch.com for our previous episodes. And thank you so much for being here, and I'll look forward to joining us for our next episode. Take care, everyone. Bye.