HIRE HIGHER: How to Attract, Interview & Grow Your Dream Team with Andrea Hoffer

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast to help transform you into a powerhouse leader by shedding the challenges and overwhelm along with the fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding you back from creating riches in your work and life. My name is Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, and in this episode, my guest will answer a question I get all of the time. About hiring the best employees, not just any employee. That is, how do you discover who it is you truly need so you attract the ideal candidates that will knock down your door for the opportunity to work with you? My guest today is Andrea Hoffer of AHA Recruiting Experts. How are you, Andrea?

I'm great, Bernadette. How are you?

I'm doing fantastic. Thank you very much. I would really like to hear a little bit about you, your background, how you came into this particular area of expertise and focus.

I actually started in higher ed. I first went off on a career to work on college campuses and specifically in student development. So I have years of experience and actually a master's with a focus on higher ed student development. And I feel like that was an amazing foundation for what I do now, because a lot of what we do with our clients is grounded in everything I learned to do with students to help them to be the best that they can be and to be great, great leaders.

Sure.

But somewhere along my journey within the higher ed realm, I started getting put in charge of revenue generating units. And they essentially worked like a small business. And I realized, hey, I enjoy this and I'm good at it. So I went back to school at night and I got my MBA. And then once I completed that, I left and opened my first business, which was— I invested in a franchise. So it was a Massage Envy, and I had that for 10 years. And one of the things that I saw I was doing terribly was hiring. And the funny thing was one day I'm like, why are we doing hiring the way we're doing it? Like we're just kind of doing it from the seat of our pants. Whoever walks in and wants a job, we talk to them. And I'm like, this is not what I did in the college environment. We had a very detailed process and there were reasons for everything we did. And I, so I learned the correct way to hire. So I said, I'm going to start taking that, seeing what else is out there and doing that in my own business. And so I put together a program that really worked. And at the same time, I had a small consulting business called the Ha in my client where I was working with teams, helping them to work better together, helping with develop leadership skills. A lot of what I was doing with students, but now with business professionals. And, uh, my clients are saying, can you help us with hiring? We hear you're doing some, some different things. And eventually AHA Business Consulting became AHA Recruiting Experts.

Oh, nice. And so when you say recruiting, help explain that, because I had my own kind of perception the minute I saw that. But AHA Recruiting Experts stands for what?

We are a combination of a recruitment marketing meets full-cycle recruiting company.

Okay.

Our, our target market are small to mid-sized growing businesses. And one of the reasons for that is when I, when I owned my spa, I always said I wish there was a recruiter or some type of recruitment business that worked well with the small to mid-sized business, you know, that could teach us what to do, could— we could outsource to, but really was more of a partner than what I was seeing from the traditional recruitment models, which I couldn't— I didn't have the budget for, you know, for traditional recruitment model anyway.

They were more geared for the big corporate organizations.

Exactly. Yeah, so you would pay a percentage of annual salary. There was no— it was more about finding a person for that seat than for building upon that. So what we do is we spend a lot of time in the beginning doing a discovery session with our clients, helping them figure out who that person is they need, building that candidate persona, which may have heard that terminology before. Learning about not only what do they need in order to be successful in the job and to get the results that the employer wants, but also how do they show up every day? You know, what are the core values that this company lives by that they want everybody on their team, no matter what the position, to, to live by? And we, we take all that information and create a recruitment marketing campaign around it.

Right, right.

We have a whole formula for that. And then we marry that with sourcing. We have full-time sourcers who go out, you know, to all the different databases that we have access to and invite passive candidates who may not be actively looking for a job, saying, hey, we have this opportunity. And now we have this, you know, recruitment marketing material that we can share with them that makes the position so much better.

Sure, sure.

And then we help, you know, we teach them how to interview effectively, the clients, the employers, because a lot of them don't know that. So we're really a full-service firm. It's almost like recruitment marketing, recruiting, and coaching.

Right, right, right.

All in this room.

Okay.

What have you found in your experiences, whether it is with the small market, maybe even the large market, the corporate market? What do you find to be the greatest challenges for employers, both higher like HR hiring managers? What do you find the greatest challenges to be?

Well, there are lots of different challenges. Probably one of the biggest ones right now is a lot more people are looking for remote opportunities as well as flexible opportunities. And some businesses, corporate or otherwise, are just not set up for that.

And just before you move on, flexibility in what?

Time. So we, you know, do they need to always be there 8 to 5, 9 to 5, whatever, you know, whatever it is, or can they be a little more flexible with the hours they work? Is the focus on the results that you need or that there's somebody tied to that desk, you know, during certain business hours. Now, certain positions, they have to be, right? But some jobs can have that flexibility. And so many more people, it's been happening for a long time, but the pandemic just sped it up. It just accelerated it. And people are more interested in having flexibility to go to their kids' soccer game or go to the dentist if they need to, happy to make up the hours, another time, but just having that idea that they're not going to get in trouble, you know, for asking to change those hours and that they're still going to bring in the results that the employer needs.

Well, and I think that's important because I've been extremely blessed throughout my career because I would say, you know, as early as 1995, I worked for, for a company that because of the travel and because of the amount that we were on the road, whether domestically or internationally, it was like when you get home, stay home, you know, you don't have to come into the office. And they were very good, even as even a Fortune 500 company, they were very good with the fact that we're more concerned about you meeting your deliverables, you meeting your milestones, you meeting your deadlines. Than we are about the fact that you're there, you know, at 8 o'clock in the morning to 5 o'clock in the evening. So if you would all of a sudden, you know, be out at the gym at noon to 1 or whatever the case might be, you know, who cares? As long as you're kind of fulfilling your job. So you do see businesses, small and large, kind of moving more toward that in order to you know, as we were talking about and in the description about having the best, you know, candidates show up at your door?

I do. I do. And I think especially those larger corporations that always had the focus on, well, let's have a ping pong table and, you know, in the break room and every coffee flavor you can think of. I think they're realizing, yeah, some of those things are nice, but that's not necessarily what the best employees are looking for. They want to know that they have some flexibility about when they can work, but they also want to know that they're contributing, that they're bringing a lot of value, and there's opportunity to move up and learn. And so I see a much bigger shift towards that and towards offering that. And of course, money has become a little bit of a challenge as well, because more people are looking to make more than they have in the past. But I still think there's actually, there's a lot more room for negotiation there if you add in that flexibility option. I feel like a lot more people are willing to give up some money if they can have more of that flexibility.

Okay. So, and I definitely will want to get it more further into that when we talk about kind of what does it take to get that best candidate. But you said something interesting. You said that as you were mentioning remote and flexibility, that companies are just not prepared for that. They're not structured or set up. Is that what you were saying?

Yes. So some of the things I've heard is that so much happens just in the office, just naturally, and even giving to-dos out or delegating. Some of what I'm saying, we're not being prepared. It's not just about the technology and that connection that way. It's also learning different approaches so that you can still work effectively with people online and learning ways to create connections, to create that culture you want online. But one thing I've noticed is people in the past think their culture kind of comes out of just being around each other, right? And it does, but not necessarily the culture you intended. And now with remote work, I hear a lot, well, if I allow people to work remotely, we won't be able to build that culture and we'll have to work harder at it. Well, if you're not working hard enough at it, even in person, you're probably not creating the culture that you want, that's going to be most successful for your company long-term. So it's actually forcing companies to start to think about, well, how do we intentionally create the culture that we think we have or we want to have? And how do we do that either in a hybrid situation, remote, you know, and remote as well?

Right, right. No, I absolutely agree. Not, you know, there's There's aspects of a manager now needs to be able to communicate effectively and needs to be able to figure out how to motivate and how to engage everybody. But at the same time, have you found that there's also a control issue that, you know, if, if people are at home, they don't know what they're doing or not doing or when they're doing it or when they're not doing it. And so does a lot of it come down to trust? From the managers to kind of recognize that if we give them this kind of this box to work in, we just then have to trust that they're going to fulfill that box.

Yes, and truthfully, that trust has always been a factor. I mean, did you really, depending upon how many people you supervise, did you really know what every single one of them was doing, even if they were in the office.

Right, right.

That's true.

I slept behind a report that was this big, you know, as often as I could when I was in my 20s. Yeah, it's true.

I think it's so apparent if you're looking at the results, at the productivity that's coming across, at the quality, you'll know whether or not you can trust them or whether they need some extra support. Because sometimes it might not be a trust issue. It may just be they don't have the tools that they need to be successful. But it really, I mean, it comes up, you know, sometimes people are worried, well, if they're remote, they could be holding two jobs at once. Well, that's gonna come out pretty quickly. If that's really the case, you're gonna see that they're not being productive.

Right, right.

They're not available at times, you know, pretty often that you need to speak with them.

And at the same time, if they're making their deliverables, if they're meeting their deliverables and making a contribution and being effective in their role, it's almost like, who cares?

Right?

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. So flexibility, remote. Is there any other big challenge that they are dealing with right now when it comes to hiring?

One thing that I think we're just starting to learn as employers is we live in a review society, right? So if you're going to buy something, you typically will look up Yelp or whatever review, Amazon, before you buy it. I know I do. I look at all the reviews before I buy anything. It's the same thing with hiring. And it's becoming stronger and stronger. So keep in mind that whatever size company you are, you want to work on marketing what your culture is about. And you want to keep an eye on what people are saying about you. One of the easiest things to do that I even see large corporations not doing is claiming your Glassdoor page. And, you know, it's a free thing. Information about yourself there, because people are going to leave reviews on Glassdoor whether you claim the page or not. So you might as well know what they're saying about you. And you might get some great insights that you can work on changing within your culture, or you learn about who's not a good fit, right, for you. And so I think that's a big challenge when it comes to hiring is being proactive with not only the culture that, that you create for your company, but how you market that.

Is there a term for that?

What is that?

Brand?

There's an employer branding. So just like branding your company, who you are as an employer, what value do you bring to, to the people who work with you? You know, what, what is the heart of your company. And then recruitment marketing is marketing that, getting it out there, helping your team to share what it's like to work at your company, because then they'll bring new, new people on as you need them.

Absolutely. Love it. Yes, I love that. They will bring new, you know, other people on. So it comes down to what, what was mentioned in the intro about, you know, how do you find those ideal candidates that will knock down the door in order to be able to work with you. Before we get there, though, before we get there, I want to understand what mistakes— because the one you just talked about, about the fact that they're not necessarily, you know, ensuring that they're focused on their, you know, brand value. What other mistakes are businesses making when it comes to hiring, especially hiring for that best candidate?

The biggest mistake that's been going on forever is taking some job posts off of a job board like Indeed or LinkedIn that look good to you and just copying it. I mean, people are busy, right? So they take it, maybe tweak it a little bit, but not putting the time into, is this really describing who would be successful, not just in my position, but my culture?

Right, right.

And then you end up— it's going to speak to a certain type of candidate. And if that's not the type of candidate that would be successful in your organization, well, you just ensure that you're going to get the wrong candidates. I mean, you might get lucky, but you're not purposefully reaching out to people who speak your culture, who live it, who are attracted. Buy it. I mean, I really— the biggest mistake is not going through that discovery process and learning and looking into yourself, into your company. Who is successful here? Who do we want here to grow? How do they show up every day? What is, what is most important?

Right, right, right. Yeah, really kind of building an ideal candidate profile. That us entrepreneurs and, you know, business owners, we know because it's beaten into us every day of our business. Our business world is, you know, build that avatar, build that, you know, idea of who your perfect client is and in this case, who your perfect candidate is for a particular role. Not all roles.

Yes. So we talk about success traits that are specific to the position. So how people who have been successful in this position in the past have shown up, or maybe you've never hired for this position in the past, but you've worked in other organizations with a similar position and you know the characteristics. And we, we're big on stories. So thinking about these stories, thinking about the people you've worked with who were very successful or not very successful, and that helps you to start to think about what the success traits are. But the core values are true for any position. Position in your organization. That's your guiding stick of how people make decisions each day in, in, you know, in your organization. So we always talk about the success traits for the position, the core values for the company, and then if there's anything, you know, very specific to the position as far as they have to have a certain software knowledge or certain experience or results even better, results that they've accomplished in the past that you would like to see happen at your company.

Right. Now, does soft skill, emotional intelligence, does that all get fed into when it comes to building that profile of, you know, the type of person that will fit our culture based on, you know, even these intangible, very hard to measure but critical traits of an individual.

Yes, it will typically show up in success traits and also sometimes in core values. You just want to define it a little bit more specifically. So it may show up differently for each position or each culture, right, of how, you know, how that emotional intelligence shows up. But we, you know, Years ago, we were working with a wedding company, a wedding shop, and they, they had specific scenarios where emotional intelligence was, was extremely important in order to be successful in their stores. And so we wrote down those stories, you know, and we should— the recruiter who was in charge of it knew those stories inside and out. And as they, as they interviewed they asked for stories from the candidates, and we wanted to hear stories that were very similar. We're not going to find exact, and you don't want to find exact, everybody's different experiences, but that mirrored the stories that they want to see more of in their company.

The key thing you're also saying too, and the mistake that possibly that is made, is that don't copy and paste from other job descriptions, put some time and energy into the, you know, to the job description. And would you say that a mistake that's made is making sure that that also translates to the interviewing process? Because you can have a beautiful job description and then the person shows up to get interviewed and it just is, you know, nothing is congruent, nothing ties back, and it's a mess. So what happens with the interview process?

Excellent point. So first of all, I want to define— we define job description differently than job posting. So job description is, I mean, that's about the results you're looking for. It's an internal document between you and whoever you hire. The job posting may have a lot of elements from the job description, but it's marketing. Your job posting is to speak to that candidate. Persona that you're looking for. So we take the job posting, and then when we're creating the interview questions, each one, each question ties back to something in that posting, something that's going to give us more information that shows, that will either tell us this person is this candidate persona or this person is not. Always use that job posting as our, almost our cheat sheet when we're interviewing. So when we're writing the interview questions, we're making sure that each of those questions tie back to something that we said was important in the posting. And the question is designed so that it pulls out of the candidate about their past experience and how they've shown up in the past to see if they actually are a fit for the candidate persona that we outlined.

OK. And then it's really critical that that's then used for the interview. So everything ties together.

I was just going to say, one of, one of the things that we hear often is sometimes people want to interview tons and tons of candidates and then just hire the best out of them. So they're comparing candidate to candidate. And I was taught early on, even in the college setting, that you want to be comparing the candidates to your candidate persona, not really against each other. Now, when it comes down to maybe two finalists and they're both a good fit for the persona, you might wanna see, well, which, does one have a specific skillset that the other doesn't that could add additional value? You can do that, but in the long run, you want to be comparing against your persona. You wanna keep coming back to what you created early on of who you need, who you're looking for, instead of trying to— because otherwise you're going to keep— it's going to be a never-ending process. And I see that sometimes with clients where, well, we love these 3 people, but we want to see 10 more to see if there's anybody any better. I'm like, well, we've already interviewed 50 people for you, or whatever it is. Are these a fit? For your free candidate persona. And especially right now when things are happening so quickly and these candidates are getting job offers all over the place. If you're really interested in someone and you, you know, you've done your due diligence that they're the right, the right fit, don't always be looking through another door, right?

Well, could you, because I had this situation happen to me. When I was in corporate as a leader. And it was because I had— I thought I had the perfect candidate and it turned out to be a nightmare. And so— and it was more work to unfortunately, you know, cut ties with this individual than it was, you know, in the hiring. And I was very, very gun-shy, you know, for a little bit after that. I was just like, maybe someone else can go through, you know, and I was only one part of the interviewing process and yet I was the kind of the endpoint. And so, you know, do you find that too, though, is that some people kind of keep looking because they just want to ensure they do have the best fit and they don't have a problem down the road?

In that instance, I would imagine, and I find this with a lot of people who have said, oh, I hired somebody and they were a nightmare. If I would go back and look at the interview questions you asked and how they answered it, go back to the references, 9 times out of 10, you're going to see that red flag and it's going to be very educational for you. So I wouldn't just keep looking. I would first figure out, well, what's holding me back from hiring this person? Or I hired this person and didn't work out. What You know, can I pinpoint why before stepping back? It's not a volume game, right?

Right.

It's being very clear on who you're looking for, who's the right fit, and then designing your process, especially your interview questions, around bringing out enough information to help you see. Nobody's going to be 100%, right? Nobody's going to be perfect, right? But to help you see is this person the, the right fit? So if somebody says to me, you know, I like these two candidates or three candidates, but I want to see if there's someone better, that I want to know, well, what is that better you're looking for? Show me in the interview, show me in the references of what's not a match before we go out looking for more people and just keep making, you know, bringing in the wrong people, or we might have the right person here and you're just not recognizing it.

Yeah, no, valid point, very valid point. Yep, absolutely. All right, so we wanted to come back around to what does it really take to attract that ideal client? And you had started talking about, well, you know, um, or making, making the hiring process to where you have the ideal candidates wanting to knock down your door. And you started talking about, you know, the remote consideration, flexibility consideration, whatever. And really knowing your kind of your brand or your culture, you know, brand. What are some other things that really cause candidates out there? And you mentioned passive candidates. So all of a sudden they have to wake up, right? Right. And all of a sudden say, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I got to have this job with this company, you know, What are those things that kind of allow that to happen?

Employee testimonials are one. Video, employee videos. You can get your employees, your current team members in every position to get, do a little video. It doesn't have to be polished. We, from their phone, talking about what they love about working at your company in that specific position, those are great because then people will either connect with it or not. And you only want to talk to people who connect with it.

Right.

Being a leader in your industry, if you're online a lot and you're sharing blogs and you're on LinkedIn and whatever the place is for your industry and you're sharing best practices, good information for people who you may want to hire in the future that, you know, would be interested in it. You'll get known as an industry leader, and you'd be amazed at how people will, will flock to you. And I get messages fairly regularly from people. The other day, a recruiter just messaged me on LinkedIn and said— all it said was, I want to join your team, explanation. And it, you know, it's because I'm active on LinkedIn and I'm always sharing information that are hopefully helpful to both candidates and recruiters and, and business professionals. And so the more you're out there, the more you're sharing valuable information. I'm not saying just advertising, but sharing information that could be of interest not just to your potential clients, but also to people in your industry, showing you're a leader in your industry. The more of when you put a job posting out and saying you have an opportunity, people are just going to flock to it. And also having your team share that with their colleagues is invaluable, right? Even when you're not, you don't have a posting, but hey, my, you know, my boss shared this article. I just, you know, I went, here are all the people I went to school with. Let me share this article with you. I think you're going to find it so insightful. And then I'm telling you, they're going to get messages saying, is your company hiring? Or when do you think they'll be hiring? How do I get in there?

Nice. I love that. And again, that can be applicable at any size of company, no matter what size they are, what industry they are. Tips, employee testimonials, be a leader, put yourself out there as a thought leader, and then have your team share amongst their own colleagues and their industry and their network and their community. Well, how do you know when you're hiring the right person?

Well, after you have a solid candidate persona and you write your interview questions, take a look at your interview questions. You want to make sure that they're very specific. And what I mean by that is if I ask an interview question of 3 different candidates and they all give a similar response, then it's probably not a good interview question. You want questions where you're getting to know this person, how the experiences they've had and how they showed up. So One of the things we do is all of our talent consultants go through the Mark Murphy Hiring for Attitude certification program. And so it's one of our, one of our processes or one of our formulas that we follow. And we kind of tweak it with the way, with some other processes as well. But I'm a huge fan of him. And he talks about asking for specific examples. A specific example, that's your power phrase as an interviewer. And so you want to bring in what typically happens at your company for this position. So we can do— use something easy, right? So if you're looking for a customer service person, right, something that may happen quite frequently is you have a difficult customer. So you can say, could you share A specific example of a time you had to work with a difficult customer. Now you'll notice I did not say, and how did you resolve it? Right. Because that's giving away the answer. So this way, the people who tend to complain, don't really like dealing with difficult customers, they may actually start to complain. But if I had said, and how you resolved it, I'm cueing them to tell, to, you know, to find at least one example where they actually resolved it. And so if you have a series of questions like that and they all relate back specifically to things that come up on the job frequently, you're going to be hearing different stories. And the thing you want to keep going back to is specific example, because what's going to happen is a lot of the candidates are gonna be talking very vaguely. You know, they'll talk in generalities. They might say, "You should do this." And so what I typically do is say, "You know, I really wanna hear about you. Could you share a specific example?" And if they still are talking in generalities, I move on, because now that I know they're not a good listener, Right. Or they don't have good stories to share with me. So they're probably not, not a good fit. That one little piece alone has changed our hiring results incredibly. Now you have to do the discovery work first to know what you're listening for.

Sure.

And then ask the right interview questions and connecting those two, the results are incredible.

Well, what I'm hearing, Andrea, is that what I assumed was not simple process, but a pretty straightforward. It's an art. It's an art to come up with that right job posting, that job posting. And it's an art to come up with the interview questions. Formulated in such a way that you're going to get the feedback or the answer.

Yes, exactly. So it's a very intentional process. You asked about mistakes earlier, and one of the mistakes I talk about in my book is that somebody just kind of do it shooting from the hip like I was with my spa and not having an intentional process to follow. Because you also want to make sure every candidate is going through the same process. Otherwise you're not being fair. Right, right. And it's also difficult to figure out who's the right fit.

Right. But I think it was also key what you said too, about if you're getting the same answers from a question, then it's not the right question or it's not formulated in the way that, you know, that you need it to be to get different responses. That one was a kicker. That one I was like, oh, wait a minute, I didn't even consider that.

Yeah. And it's probably more true now than it was decades ago because all the answers are on the internet.

Right.

Right.

So if they're not personalizing it, if they're not giving you a specific example that only they can tell you, right. And they're just telling you something that they copied off the internet that they practiced or or read the 10 best responses to interview questions.

Exactly. Yes, yes. Now, it's not a bad thing to go and look for, you know, some questions, but then you have to formulate your own personal, personal responses. It can't be canned. Exactly.

Yeah. I, when I speak with candidates, I always recommend they have some sort of portfolio. Portfolio, whether it's electronic or, you know, an actual notebook where throughout their career they're writing down experiences they've had, lessons they've learned, results they've achieved, how they got through different things. So it reminds them. I did this early on in my— it started in my 20s.

Right.

And this portfolio, I bought this nice little black folder with loose leaf and nobody told me to do this. I'm really not sure what made me start doing it, but I would Every time there was something I wanted to remember about my career, I would put it in there. And then whenever I had an interview, I'd go and review. Oh yeah, that's a good thing to remember. Maybe it might come up in, in the interview. And that's the best way to prepare. And instead of just reading canned answers, I love that.

And that— what a great tip, everybody, is just to get yourself, you know, whether it's a journal or, you know, what did you call it, a portfolio?

I called it— I used to call it my portfolio. It made me feel special.

Hey, if that's what it takes, no one should judge that. But it's a great idea to be tracking it throughout your career, throughout your, you know, business, throughout your life, because there's life stories, I would assume, as well, that have nothing to do with work, but yet definitely kind of suits, whether or not you're a fit for a particular culture.

Yes. Excellent point. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's— no, it's your— it was your— I just happened to like go, oh wait, someone could do that for their life. What a great, great, great idea and great suggestion. All right. Share with us a little bit, if you would, about your book, Hire Hire.

Essentially, it's our process that we use at AHA. It takes you through step by step. It's a very practical guide that guides you through the discovery process onto creating a recruitment marketing campaign, and then talking about creating good, effective interview questions and what to listen for. And then it starts to talk a little bit about onboarding. And my next book will actually be more about onboarding. I just ran out of room with this book. And it also has a feature to it within the book. It gives you a link where you can join our Dream Team Community for free for, for 3 months. And on the Dream Team Community, there's even more information. We have sample interview guides, we have sample templates for reaching out to potential candidates, to passive candidates, all the different things that you might need to execute on some of the things in the book. We just wanted to make sure that, um, whoever had the book had tools to use.

Where is that community, that Dream Team community? Is that a Facebook group or is that a LinkedIn group?

We actually are hosting it on a, um, a platform called Circle.

Okay.

It's just, um, we, we, it's one of those platforms that allows you to create communities because people can post and ask questions. And we, we, we wanted to do it there so you can— it's not just a class, it's more of resources and being interactive. That's why we're calling it a community.

Right.

But the book has the link that brings you to Circle so that you can set up your account.

Andrea, is there any last tips or advice that you would have for those hiring managers when it comes to hiring higher?

You know, I can't say enough how important that discovery process is. And even if you don't buy my book, but you just download the free chapter, it walks you through 6 questions to do the discovery process. And I think if you just took some time to walk through those questions, you're going to see a difference. In your hiring. And if you also kind of recognize your interview questions and go back, if you have detailed notes from previous interviews, especially ones where the person didn't work out, reread them. And you wouldn't, you'd just be surprised at how much you would recognize, oh, it's right here in black and white. Yeah.

Right, right. Now, and for anyone that is watching or listening, Uh, it might sound easy just to go and get the 6 questions in her, you know, free chapter and do it on your own, but trust me when I say that a discovery process of any kind, uh, needs to be kind of deep. It needs to be really, um, kind of what I always call excavation, so you really get the, the meat and the juices out of what it is that you're working on. So go to AHARecruitingExperts.com. You don't need to do it on your own. You can engage her and her team to help walk you through it, and you'll, you'll get there that much faster and that much more successfully. So AHARecruitingExperts.com. And again, download a free chapter of her book Hire Hire at bit.ly/AHAffer free chapter. Andrea, this has been fabulous. Thank you so much for your time. This has been great.

Thank you, Bernadette. I've enjoyed it.

Yes, I have as well. And for everyone else, thank you for being part of Shedding the Corporate Bitch, and I'll look forward to having you right back here next Tuesday. But if you took away anything from today but you have some additional questions beyond what we discussed, then feel free to reach out to me and book, book some time to talk to me at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall. All right, for everyone here in the Shedding the Bitch community, I will see you next Tuesday at noon Eastern time. Bye everyone!