How Female Leaders Are Changing the World with DAWN ANDREWS

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse experts each week to share tips advice, and sometimes tough love that will allow you to create the riches in your work and life you deserve. So let's do this. Welcome, welcome, welcome into Shedding the Corporate Bitch podcast, where we are transforming corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by helping them shed their overwhelm and challenges, along with the fears, insecurities, doubts, and negativities that are holding them back from being the powerhouse leader and creating riches in their work and life they deserve. My name is Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching. I'm so excited that you're here today because we're gonna have a great conversation and we're gonna dig into the changing world, or the change that the world needs, and that is more female leaders in key roles in organizations, whether that is in corporate or their own company. Now, our guest Dawn Andrews of Free Range Thinking and the founder of Female Leadership Accelerator will dig into this question: What would the world look like if more women stepped into their leadership shoes? So help me welcome Dawn to the show. How are you, Dawn?

I am so good, Bernadette. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Oh, you're so welcome, welcome, welcome. I love this, this subject, um, because yes, I think women are changing the world already and will just continue to do so more and more, uh, and it's a conversation too true to my heart because when we're talking about the benefits, almost like the ROI of women in the workplace, um, it's just astounding. So before we get into all of that, help us understand who Dawn is. Give us some background about you personally that then will help everyone relate, and then we'll dive into all of the, all of the other conversation.

Sure. I, so I am the founder of Free Range Thinking and of the Female Leadership Accelerator. Free Range Thinking is a business strategy consulting company, and we help founders become CEOs, but we also work with women in corporate to help them become stronger leaders and to stand out and move up.

Nice.

And that was a long journey for me. I started out working behind the scenes for people, entry-level jobs in entertainment and beyond. And I had to find my courage, find my voice, stake my claim, put my elbows out and take my spot at the table. And it's been a lot of hard-won knowledge that has gotten me to the place of owning my own business, owning the accelerator, and making space for women in the world as leaders, right? So I'm excited to be able to share that journey and help more women do the same.

Yeah, I love that. And where are you located?

I'm located in Los Angeles.

Just curious. I figured as much when I saw that you work within the entertainment industry, and that we can have a conversation on, uh, forever and a day.

That's a whole other ballpark.

That's a whole other ballpark. But you, you used a phrase, and I'm just curious as to, for you, what it means. But you used the phrase hard-won leaders. Is that— did I hear that right?

One knowledge. Yeah.

Oh, hard-won knowledge. And what exactly does that mean?

That means that I've had to face a lot of my own personal fears, doubts, concerns, insecurities to be able to start— to be able to believe that I could start a company, that I could lead a company, and that I had something to say as a leader and to other women as a leader. A lot of that is not only your own personal psychology, but also what you're putting out in the world and how you're behaving that shifts people's perception of what is possible for you, what is possible for you in their business, how you could be a benefit and value to them. But it all starts with being able to believe that of yourself first. Right.

If you don't believe it, you're not going to, right? You're not going to step up and speak up. And it'll hold you back.

Well, and the irony too, Bernadette, that it's, it's one of those loops that drives me bananas is that if you don't believe in yourself, other people won't believe in you. But you can't think yourself into believing in yourself. The courage and the transformation comes when you take a risk and just do it anyway.

Yeah.

Even when you're not feeling, you know, feeling yourself.

Right, right. Well, and quite honestly, Dawn, uh, there's a lot of controversy about the, uh, the long-term term of fake it till you make it, but that's exactly why I've lived by that mantra my entire life. And it— because it doesn't— for me, it doesn't mean that you're in, uh, unauthentic or you're not true to yourself. It's just simply, for me, it meant just take the— take the risk. Like you may not think or believe that you could do something, but at least take the risk and do it. So is that— how do you feel about that whole, you know, kind of fake it till you make it idea? Yeah.

So I think there was a time that that statement absolutely held true and especially held true for women. And I think men were doing it all along anyway, not to be totally gender biased, but I mean, I think men are masters at, like they don't even necessarily distinguish it as faking it till they make it. They just talk their way through something, do it, and then it happens.

Right.

What I think, I think we're in a very different era now, which I'm super excited about. And I see it happening, not just in women, for women in leadership, but for men, is the rise of vulnerability and empathy, the power of those two things in leadership. So I feel like fake it till you make it is going away. A little bit because you can just be real about what you know and don't know and then still do it.

True. Okay, fair, fair. That's, that's a fair statement. And so I'm willing to shift, you know, my belief system in regards to that. So, Dawn, I'm really curious. Your company's called Free Range Thinking, and I found that very interesting. What exactly does it mean? To you, for you, and for your business?

So Free Range Thinking, like, God's honest truth, I literally woke up with it one morning before I started my business. I was like, I just like the sound of that. And so that, that's all the significance it had at the time. So there's that. But what I think is great about making choices like that is that then you live into them. So like, if you're designing a vision for your business, if you're designing a, you know, and have dreams for your life. You make a choice, and then you live into it. You move towards it. And so Free Range Thinking now, to me, means being able to consider what's established or what are best practices, but also to let them go. To be able to consider other voices and opinions and to include them. To be able to synthesize different ways of doing things. To make a new and better way. So those are the 3 things that free-range thinking means to me now. And it's how I approach working with my clients. It's how I approach thinking about my business and the businesses that I support. And it's how I think about this topic of women in leadership. Where, where things have come from, how people become leaders or have become leaders in the past, has always been somebody tap— somebody higher up tapping the person down below and saying, "You're the next in line." Right. And to me, the challenge with that is that it's been so predominantly male-driven for so long that if we keep waiting for that tap, there's never going to be a change. And so by applying some free-range thinking to it, we can build our own tables; we can find ways to make ourselves more visible. We can think of new ways to express ourselves and show ourselves and show up in our work. So that's what Free Range Thinking means to me.

I love that. And would you say your clients feel the same way, or what, when they hear Free Range Thinking, how are they taking that in?

Yeah, I would, I would say another great thing that it has done is that it has, it has been controversial enough to divide the people that work well with me or will not work well with me. So if you're buttoned up and your tie's all tightened up to the top and you like to follow the rules and believe that there is one way of getting things done and there's only one right way, we are not the right match, right?

That's awesome. And it is a great qualifier. It's like, I don't need to waste my time because you're either with it or without it. And that's fine if you're without it. But let's move on. You find your right person and I'll find my right person. Love it, love it. Because we all do need to be true to what it is that we're working toward and working so hard to accomplish.

Absolutely. And, and no, no shade to anybody that follows a more prescriptive path. Like, we each have our things that work better for us, but I, I work best with, and people work best with me, if at minimum they are open to considering new ways But especially if they're creative folks, and that's part of the reason why the entertainment industry is a large group of my clients, is that they're creative thinkers, right?

Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. Aren't they? Yeah, so much time, so much so that you can't kind of control them sometimes, but that's quite, that's quite all right. Um, you also used another phrase that, um, I want you to kind of dig into. You said to build our own tables.

Yes, girl.

Yes, yes, yes. And I love that. Uh, so help our listeners understand, how do they build their own table? And but before even that, what does that mean for those that may not be at the table?

Yeah, so back to the, you know, I feel like there's the before and after times, and I do feel like we're on the cusp of or in the after times. The before times were men ran the show. Men were the one— ones in the driver's seat, leadership seat, head of the table, predominantly raising the funds, having access to opportunity, however you want to look at it. That's the table. We rarely had seats at the table, if even in the room, if even on the same floor. And women now have the opportunity, more opportunity than ever before, to create their own tables. The first way that that happens is, if you're able to, starting your own thing. Starting your own business, your own small business. Even if you're a solopreneur, that's your own table. Or if you're inside a corporation, started or start a subset employee resource group. Become a leader. If you can't get a leadership position in a more traditional role, can you be a leader in a subset group inside your company? Like the employee resource groups? Can you start a group with the, a networking group with the other women that are on your floor or cross-functionally? Like if there are teams that you collaborate with inside your org, inside the organization, can you even just, you know, cocktail hour, right? Like start and, and take some time to get to know other women in other areas, because women lift as they climb, right? So even if you're not the next in line to move up, somebody in another department, another area gets to know you. And as they climb, they can help lift you.

Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Now I do want to, because this is a very sensitive point you just made to me. I definitely believe that, yes, I love that women raise up other women. Absolutely necessity. Absolutely, you know, mandatory. However, when it comes to networking and groups and initiatives and associations and conferences, I often find— and I'm curious if you do— I often find that these women's associations are just purely women. And yet, if we want to resolve a lot of the history and legacy, we have to have men in the room. We have to have men up on the stage. We have to have men in the you know, the breakouts. And yet a lot, a lot of them don't. What is your thoughts on when and how men are included, you know, and inserted into— what we do want is women masterminding together, but how do you insert, uh, men appropriately to that?

I don't, I don't know if there's ever a right answer to that. The way I take it on, and the way I encourage the women that I work with to take it on, is to start looking for the the men that have already identified themselves as aligned or as allies.

Yes.

You know, because there, there are men that, for instance, I was working with a large, an international, a global pharmaceutical organization. There were already men that had made it a point in their teams to go for parity, to, to see if they could get to 50% parity in their teams, 50% women and men. Those, those would be potential allies. You could do, have a quick mentorship conversation with them. You could say, "Can we spend 15 minutes and pick your brain?" Depending upon where they are in relationship to the group that you might want to invite them to, are they somebody that has more information or seniority, and could they come and be a speaker to provide some insight? Would they be willing to do a Q&A with your group so that inside that networking moment or that women's conference, there could be a Q&A with a man that is in a position that is already allied with women, right, to give some insight and some feedback to the group, right? So those are some of the ways that I see the timing of that. You just kind of— it, you know, like we started at the beginning, you got to go for it and then see how it goes, right?

Right.

But you do believe men have to be part of the conversation?

Wholeheartedly. The goal here is not— it's not to flip it. It's not to— there's a great book, Bernadette, called The Power by Naomi Alderman. It's a recent book. It was one of Obama's favorite picks for 2017. It's a fiction book about what would happen if women literally had more physical power than men. And what would the world be like if women could exert that physical power over men? And the book basically flips, you know, flips the script so that imagine we were having this conversation and men were having a separate podcast saying, "How do we, how do we get more spaces in leadership? How do we get in there?" Right. The goal is not to flip it, right? The goal is to take, you know, reasonable and/or equal or equitable space in this— in operation of business so that we all benefit from it.

Yeah.

Yes, it's, it's just to be fair and equal. I mean, you know, because we all have so much— which is a good segue— we all have so much to gain, we have so much to contribute, uh, and so it doesn't have to be a, you know, you know, he and her, or he versus her. Um, so that brings— that is a good segue. What have you found to be the key benefits when— of women when they step into key leadership roles?

Oh, so many benefits. There's so many benefits. And, and I'll share this, some of this is going to be related to what it's like to run your own company, but these these qualities translate into being inside a corporation as well. Because depending upon where you are, it's like you're running your own small business inside your company, right?

Right.

But women, women are already known for being more collaborative, empathetic, and empowering, just straight across the board. And if you're looking at making your team perform better, helping your team to perform better, those qualities are absolutely essential. Women do tend to be more vulnerable, more open and more inclusive. So all of those sort of what we've considered soft skills over the years are actually what help nurture people, teammates into better performance. And if your team performs better, you get greater results inside your particular group or team. You might create even greater financial results. Just to give a little perspective outside corporate, female-founded businesses usually exit a year faster than men, sometimes up to 60% higher in terms of the return on investment. So if you invest in a female founder, she's likely to return your investment 66% higher than a man would, and a year earlier than you intended.

Nice.

It's incredible statistics. And yet female founders get very little funding. So if you can put that inside a corporate environment, right, what's it like if you have women in leadership?

Yes. And there is studies, and I wish I had it in front of me. There is studies that show from a corporate perspective, when women are inserted at a VP or higher level, the, the profit goes up. The, you know, revenue goes up, employee satisfaction goes up, retention goes up. Like every metric increases when a woman, woman is inserted in a key leadership role within a corporate organization.

Yeah.

And I will share that link to that information with the show notes along with all the other information that you're sharing as well. Because I think that's, that's the information we want out there. Um, and okay, so what are some other benefits that you have found for women?

Benefits of women in leadership?

Yes. Yes.

Yeah, well, usually it means that there are more women moving into leadership. So if a woman is leading, she is likely to see other possibilities and potential in women and lift them up.

Yeah. Yeah. All right, so Let's flip that conversation for you for, for a second. What is your observation when women don't support and when they actually hate on other women? Do you see that in business as well, whether it be corporately or entrepreneurially? And what is that effect on not only the women but the businesses as a whole?

Yeah, I, I mean, if you're a female founder or a woman who doesn't appreciate or support women in your business, I have found in general that they will get ahead for a while. Like, I'm gonna be real about it, because if you play to and/or relate to men, then men feel safer with you, so to speak, and will give you their support and allow you to advance to a certain degree, but there's always going to be a stopping point. There will always be a wall that you hit. And I just like to think that we're sowing the seeds of our future with every interaction that we have, right? So it's not even a matter of is it about women hating on other women or not, it's about who, who are you being in your business to the people that are part of your business? Because without your people and something to sell, you don't have a business, right?

Right. Well, remember the old adage, you know, people are your number one assets? You know, the company said that all the time, what, in the '80s, '90s? People are our number one assets. I think that got so watered down and muddied for a long time that— and the greed just took over to where that became, you know, um, worthless. But now it's coming back with a vengeance. Is that your observation?

That is—

it is my observation, and I am so excited to see that happening. I mean, the fact that we now have chief people officers, right? Right. Not just an HR department, you know what I mean?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're taking away the, uh, transactional element of HR and putting it and evolving it into the people element of HR, right?

The field of, the field of HR has developed so much over the last decade as well, because now some of these softer skills that we've talked about— the ability to interact well with people, the be— the ability to encourage and empower and inspire people. There are ways of measuring that now that, that follow along with other things that a company might be measuring in terms of performance. Whereas before it was thumbs up, you're doing a good job, or middle, or no. You know, there wasn't much nuance to it.

Right, right. And, but are you finding that the companies that you're working with, because you work with, you know, companies all over the world, you know, small to big, Are you finding that they have some of those things, those metrics in place, or are you the ones helping them to instill that type of infrastructure?

There, I would say that, at least in my experience with the companies that I've, I've worked with, it's probably 50/50. So half of them have something in place, like quickly got something in place and/or have something in place that they've continued to grow and refine. And then some of the folks, folks that are engaging with me are— want it, have been interested and excited about it. And particularly if they're a smaller company, they may not even have an HR department that can put that into place for them. So then we'll plug in and help them with that.

Yeah. And what changes have you seen, especially around women in leadership and the impact of women in leadership? I love the whole idea of, uh, women wearing their leadership shoes. Um, as a result of the last 3 years?

So I wish I could say it was happier than what I'm about to share, but with the pandemic, so many women left the corporate environment because we needed to tend to things at home and there weren't other options, you know, especially in single, single-parent households, right? So I thought my impression prior to the pandemic was that we were gaining a lot of ground and momentum. And we were seeing year-over-year rise of women in leadership and the benefits of women in leadership. And I feel like with the pandemic, things have taken a hit, and quite a significant one. So I'm hoping that everybody is feeling a little more rested and has been doing some healing, and they're ready, ready to get back and take some space and get back into corporate and get back into moving up in corporate.

Right, right. And get— yes, because we need those, we need those women, we need those women in those roles to get all those benefits that you already talked about, Dawn.

Yeah, well, and you know, here's another benefit that we didn't talk about before. One great thing about having women in leadership is that they, they have, have more ability to support niche concerns. So for instance, yeah, so for instance women in leadership will be thinking about what it's like to come back from a pandemic, to be a single, single-female household, raising children or taking care of elderly or, or, you know, compromised parents or family members. Not that men don't, but traditionally, men have had someone else as a partner that is thinking about those concerns. It's that, you know, it's slowly becoming less and less. It's becoming a little bit more balanced. But women think more about that. They think more about what it's like to be a mom at work. They think more about what it's like to have children— not just be a mom at work, but what it's like to be a working mom with children and how they need to arrange their schedules and their time and their pay and their flexibility. And men just aren't— that's not a primary concern for them. And again, no, no judgment at this point. Let's just fix it and start doing something about it, right?

Well, and I'm glad you said that because my question was going to be Do you see that all of this focus and effort and work and training is all focused on women? And if so, where do the men come in in regards to needing to be coached and trained and developed and evolved around all of these things? Because we can make all the women to be those perfect, what I call, powerhouse leaders, But then if we still have these men who aren't evolved, then there's still going to be this clash.

Well, what I've seen over time is that the type of leadership training that is coming into corporations is more evolved, and it includes this part of the conversation, right? So any men that are in any sort of leadership development conversation are going to have a diversity, equity, and inclusion piece of it. They're going to be discussing workplace bias. They're going to be discussing like all of these topics that were minimized or only brought up if there was an, uh, an emergent issue before are now part of the standard practice of leadership development.

Yeah.

So, so men, the people that are in the controlling seats of power presently, are receiving that training, right? And what I'm finding for women is that training is necessary as well, because we all have our own biases, even about ourselves and about other women. Sure. But what we tend to need more help with is taking space, finding our voice, being visible, finding our point of view, contributing in meetings, being willing to have difficult conversations, being willing to have confrontational conversations, and feeling confident to share those views.

Right, right. Step in there, ladies. Step up, step in, lean in, whatever you want to call it, just do it. Um, I love your free-range thinking process. That, um, that you kind of build your whole practice around, and it's all about teams, tools, and opportunity. Love it, love it, love it. So how does that approach, that process, benefit women, especially as they are evolving in their leadership roles?

So the teams part of it, obviously, just being part of any team is— I think is going to help someone improve their personal performance. If we're in our own silos working on our own list of things, some people are driven and will compete against themselves, but more people, and more women I find, are what, what, um, Gretchen Rubin discusses— Gretchen Rubin's 4 types in her, in her profile. Most women tend to be obligers, meaning they will cross the highest mountain to do something in service of someone else. And if you're not in a team environment, you don't naturally take advantage of that, right? Desire.

Oh, interesting.

So if you're in a team, I'll do anything for you, Bernadette. Like, if you need something, you know, if we're going to work on a project and you need something on Thursday, I'm there for you, right? If it's just me with my own list and I have to do it on Thursday, I mean, you know, maybe Thursday, maybe Friday, I don't know. You know, sometimes I hit it, sometimes I don't, but I will do for someone else. So the interconnectedness helps. And then the tools part of it, women, in general, people, but women, I think, do better when they know that there's a shared process that they're all following, along with the rest of the team. So if you have specific tools to get the job done, and you can measure your performance against that, it takes it out of a, is it a female or a male situation? And it makes it a performance. Situation.

And is that, um, regarding shared goals as well? Like, they'll all work together and partner and be very determined to ensure that goal is hit because we all have a share in it?

Yes, exactly.

Okay. And the opportunities?

The opportunities goes back to what we were talking about, being able to lift as you climb. So if we're on a team together, even if it's a mixed team, doesn't have to be an all-female team, but if we're on a a mixed team together, we have our teamwork in place, we have our tools in place, we have our shared goals that we're, that we're looking to reach, and we perform well, who we have been to each other in doing well on that project sets us up to be able to lead further in that group or to move up in the company. Because great, you met the results. You did, you delivered what we needed you to deliver. We see that you can work as a team, or we see that you can lead as a team. Let's elevate you to do more of that in more places in the company. And so then you're providing opportunities for others to either follow your path, to join you in those new and more elevated teams, to reach for higher and bigger goals, plans, and results. It just opens the door to opportunity.

Right. Agreed. Now, let me ask a question around But do you, even if someone is accomplishing or exceeding and they're, you know, they're elevating their contribution and the results that they're making, have you found that they're, they're, they need to be careful because not all individuals, male or female, by the way, make strong leaders versus team players?

Yeah, I get you.

What have you found in regards to that, especially because you work with entrepreneurial companies so much? Have you found that, you know, yes, the women, you know, continue to elevate, elevate, elevate. They now have their own company and/or they are heading up this big, big team within a corporation, but yet they're struggling to be that, that, that leader that is necessary.

So what I found is that it's a, it's a mutually beneficial cycle. So you exhibit signs of leadership, and you're given more opportunity. And then how do you do with that opportunity? Great, you're given more responsibility. Opportunity results more opportunity. So every leader at some point needs support. It's not, it's not like, you know, it's a one-and-done, you received the, the leadership training, and now you're a VP, and now we're done, and you'll never get training again. Like with each level of accomplishment and complexity that you, you know, traverse through, there's new skills that you need to develop. There are new conversations you need to have. So the, if, if somebody has advanced, like in the example that you gave, somebody has advanced, and they're not performing well, then they just need more support. Because they wouldn't have advanced if they weren't showing the possibility of delivering results. They just hit an inflection point where they need more intervention.

Right. I love that because I hit up on that. I hit that, you know, I get that, especially from HR managers or hiring managers. I'll get, oh, I think we made a mistake by advancing this, this individual because now they're in this leadership role and they're, you know, really struggling. Maybe I should have left them where they were. And so to Dawn's point, everyone, no, they just need development, development, coaching, training, mentoring, support, whatever. You know, don't necessarily give up on them, right?

No, don't do that.

Right.

Because, because again, I think that there's a— it's a myth and I want to dispel it for women right now, is that, that it is a one and done situation, that you're either a leader or you're not a leader. So there's a tool that I use with my clients, the DiSC, the DiSC profile. I'm sure you're familiar with it, where it gives you your, your either your workplace style or your leadership type and style. And in doing it, people naturally assume there are 4 different types: D, I, S, and C— Dominant, Inspirational, Steadfast, and Conscientious. And most people assume that all the leaders in the world are Ds. Everybody. If you're, if you're in leadership, you're a D because you're dominant.

Right.

When DiSC completed their, you know, survey, I think of some crazy amount of companies, like maybe even 1 million people that have taken this survey. And across the board, all 4 types are leaders and/or CEOs in major corporations down to smaller companies. So there's no one type of personality set of qualifications, presentation that makes somebody a leader or not a leader. And just, it needs to be taken off the board. But in the example that you're describing, if you're, you've advanced in leadership or you've been advanced in leadership and you're struggling, oftentimes the, the folks that are there to support you and/or mentor you probably need to take just a little bit more time to understand you.

Yes.

Because you may not be in the model of leaders in that organization that have come before you, but that does not mean that you are not, that you are not and/or don't have the great potential to be an extraordinary leader in that company. But there needs to be communication.

Ring the bell, ring the bell, ring the bell! And I bring that up because I had just about 3 months ago I had one of my clients say to me, I just noticed from our team that they're, they're a good majority of them are Ds. And he, you know, even though he's on the leadership team, he has a lower level position title. And he said, so I'm concerned because he's an SC. And he's like, so I'm concerned that I won't get advanced in this company because most of the, the senior executives are Ds. And I was like, oh, we need to put a stop to this, you know, belief system. So I'm so glad that you brought that up and, and discussed that, because I do— you have to take it off the table. It has to be taken off the table. Um, so what would you share with our viewers and listeners, you know, these women leaders that are trying to make a mark for themselves? What would you share, uh, to them about simply what they could be doing each and every day to help themselves in wearing their leadership shoes and, you know, and achieving the goals and the aspirations that they have for themselves.

Yeah, the starting point, to use the example you were just sharing of the group where most folks are Ds and then this person's an Se looking to rise in leadership. So the first, and honestly the main thing I would share, is know thyself. Like, what, what is your leadership type and style. If you have access to somebody that can put you through DiSC and give you some training on it, it'll give you some words to be able to express how you work, what your strengths are, what you prioritize, and what's most important to you as a leader. So know yourself. I also usually use DiSC along with the Gallup StrengthsFinder, OK, to give, to give people marketing language for themselves, right?

Sure.

Like how to express themselves and share with others in a way that they will get it. What makes you special and makes you a great candidate for leadership? And then the other thing is to know your company. So when you look around at the people who are already in positions in leadership, like, who's the next chair, right? If you're in this chair, if you're in the VP chair and you want to be in the SVP chair, is there a model out there in the SVP strata that is attractive to you that you're like, "You know what? If I could be a leader somewhat like them, That's really interesting to me. Or if you see that all the SVPs, they're Ds, they all look like this. If you have that information, then you can speak to the gap. If you understand that this whole group of people are like loud and they shout and they talk over each other, and you're the person who likes to sit back and ask questions and be thoughtful and analytical and, you know, gather your opinions before you get together and share them with people, then it is on you as you develop as a leader to figure out how to cross that divide and fill in that blank for the people that are considering you for that leadership position.

Right. Because it doesn't mean that you can't have that leadership position just because the, the hit, the legacy has been one style and you're a different style. Is that what you're saying?

Exactly. But, but it, it, the onus is on you to help the people that make those choices understand how you can cross that divide.

Well, because you're, you're creating a great, you know, 360 loop. Because at the very beginning you, you said no one's going to sit there and come along and tap you on the shoulder. You need it, you know, you need to take care of things yourself. And I think that's, that's the pure example of it too, is, you know, if you recognize a gap and yet you want something, you're— it's on you to make other people understand that gap and the benefits of you filling that gap, right?

And it absolutely— and it starts with you. If you can understand yourself and have some language to speak about yourself in a way that crosses that divide for them, you've, you've done most of the hard work just with that. And that's yours. Like, you, you can get to know yourself, you can figure that part out, right?

Not easy though, right?

Those tools definitely help though. They speed up the process.

They do. They absolutely. And somebody like Adawn helps to speed up that process as well. So I know you have, and I love this because I think it's an area that again, some people struggle with. You have an ebook called Having Brave Conversations.

Yeah.

First off, define brave conversations and what the objective is of you addressing this particular subject. In a complimentary resource. And then for those of you watching, you can see the link below. And then in a minute, I'll share the, the link for everyone else listening. But so what is the objective for your ebook around having brave conversations?

Yeah, so there are the Ds in the group. So back to our tool, probably, maybe this is for you, maybe not. Maybe it will help you understand people who are not your type and style and what it takes for them to be able to speak up. Um, so if you're in a place of leadership, it is a natural part of your role to have challenging conversations with people.

Amen.

They're not meeting their deadlines, they're not delivering their results, something's going on in their personal life that has them not performing as well as you'd like them to, or the goals that somebody has, uh, put upon you are actually not in the right, you know, in the right strata for what you need to do, or you don't have the resources and you need to fight for the resources that you need to be able to reach the goals that people higher, you know, further up the food chain have passed down to you. It is always, there is always a difficult conversation. And difficult can be anything from, "Ugh, I'm kind of tired today, and I don't want to have that conversation," to, "Ooh, like my pits are sweaty, and I don't know if I can actually step up and do this." You know what I mean? Or I could be fired, I could be let go. You know, there could be— it could be that level of conversation to be able to speak up and speak your truth, right? I find that, that women have trouble with confrontation overall, and some of it goes back to, you know, sociological, anthropological reasons. Like, if we speak up, we could have lost our heads at some point along the way in the development of humanity.

Right.

It has been bred into us from very early times that we need to be thoughtful about speaking up. And, and it's especially difficult these days in a world that seems— seems, I don't think is truly— but seems increasingly divided, where we have different belief systems and we're coming from different places, right? But it doesn't mean the conversations don't need to happen. So I created this workbook to help women figure out how to structure these conversations. And in the workbook, workbook, there's a series of questions to help you identify what the issue is, how to identify what you want to see changed, and the outcome that you'd like to have. And it gives you an example of a complete conversation, top to bottom.

Nice.

So that you have a process, especially for those that like to take time or need a moment; they can't speak off the cuff. If you need a moment and you like to put yourself and your thoughts together before you have these challenging conversations, it gives you a structure to be able to do that from beginning to end.

Sweet, sweet. I, I just got triggered because you're gonna be back on Shading the Corporate Bitch. This is such a critical, critical conversation, you know, whether it's healthy conflict Or it's difficult conversations. This is such a, a critical skill, wouldn't you say, that women, especially in leadership positions, need to feel comfortable, you know, executing on? Because you can't be a leader without being able to have brave conversations.

No. Yeah.

The, the cost and the cost of not having them is Oh, it's huge.

It's huge, huge. All right, so for everybody having Brave Conversations, you can go to dawnandrews.com/resources/braveconversations. Of course, we'll have it, um, the link in the show notes and all the links to reach out to, to Dawn in the show notes. Um, but Dawn, this has been fabulous. Thank you so much. I know we, we covered a whole lot.

We did. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Oh, you're absolutely welcome. You're absolutely welcome. And for everyone else, please go to dawnandrews.com, learn all about her, uh, but also download her, uh, ebook Having Brave Conversations right there at dawnandrews.com/resources/braveconversations. Also check out her, um, core business, uh, which is freerangedthinking.com, and learn all about what, what her process is around free-range thinking— the teams, the tools, and the opportunities. Thank you again, Dawn. I am so grateful to you.

Thank you for having me, Bernadette. This is a great conversation.

Thanks.

Wow, wasn't that discussion with Dawn great? What are you taking away from our conversation about women stepping into their leadership shoes, not leaving women behind, and creating your own table to help help you succeed. There are a lot of old-school myths out there about what it takes to get recognized and to be successful. To complement our discussion today, download my free ebook, 3 Must-Have Myths for Success. You can go right to ballofirecoaching.com to download it right now. Thanks for joining me this week. Be sure to check out all of our shows at sheddingthecorporatebitch.com. See you next time.