How Pausing Makes Happier Leaders with GRACE UENG

Do you ever feel like the rat race of climbing the corporate ladder is draining every aspect of your joy, happiness, and fulfillment? I totally get it, as does our guest Grace Oun. She will help us all understand why learning how to be happier is absolutely vital to our mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health. She will also help us to ensure that we are not only helping ourselves but our team members to flourish. She will provide us tips and strategies for creating psychological safety for your teams by anchoring conversations, learning how to listen more and speak less, and why and how to use pauses to find joy in your work. After all, less is more. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Hall of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Grace, welcome to the show. How are you?

I'm good. How are you, Bernadette? It's good to see you.

You as well. And I feel very calming looking at your background. It's very soothing and very relaxing.

Oh, that's good. This was, um, son's nursery 26 years ago, so that's why it's blue.

Oh, it's beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful. And so as we get into this conversation, and I absolutely love this conversation about leaders needing to pause. And I'm one of those people. I mean, if I don't give myself some breath and some space, I'm miserable. So I love this whole conversation around how pausing can make leaders much happier than all the chaos that goes on in the world. But before we get into all that, share with us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about Grace.

Sure, sure. As I was saying, I also grew up— well, I grew up in Atlanta where you live. And now I'm here in the Triangle in Cary, North Carolina for the last 26 years. I started my own business 20 years ago.

Wow.

And it was started as Savvy Marketing Group because I had served at a handful of startups. Um, the last 3, I was head of marketing and I had started my career in Fortune 500 companies and then moved into earlier stage companies. And then so the initial work that we did was marketing strategy. So very similar to the work that I'd done in-house. And then over the course of the years, a couple things happened. One was, was asked to help CEOs with their personal branding, helping them improve their executive presence or helping them to soften their really tough sides. And then I realized how much I enjoyed the coaching and wanted to make that a frontline offering versus this hidden thing. Because 15+ years ago, it was not necessarily thought of as a good thing to have a coach. But right now it's like, oh, of course I have a coach. And what happened was on our consulting side, clients were asking us to do things beyond marketing, like overall business strategy. Let's come in and do a strategic audit. Um, come and help us on our overall business, help us sell our business, help us, um, marketing and beyond.

Right.

So now my firm, um, about 8 years ago rebranded to be called Savvy Growth. So helping companies, organizations, as well as the leaders in the organization be the best that they can be.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Well, and you know, a lot of them, they need the help. They need the support. Uh, and they, you know, so it's great that they can have someone like you to lean on in order to help them grow, not only financially in the business, but also personally and professionally. So that's awesome. And so being that you, you're very familiar with the, the corporate Fortune, you know, 500 level of business, as well as the startups, which can be very stressful and, you know, crazy and chaotic. Um, what do you find to be the biggest challenges for leaders when it does come to them kind of finding space and breath and pause in their day in, day out, versus, you know, just kind of getting lost in all the muck that, that, uh, many, especially if they're ambitious and they're growing and advancing, uh, they can get trapped in?

Yeah, so it's— there's always an endless number of things to have to do. There's always a fire to fight. There's always something that you need to attend to. And so it's often very hard for leaders to take time out for themselves for self-care, to, to pause. And, and it's hard for them to realize that that actually has ROI taking this step. So it's often a natural instinct to take action, to immediately take action and want to always sort of be like in nonstop whirl of activity.

Right.

And oftentimes just taking a moment to, if someone is saying something to you, like let's say in a team meeting, to pause and really listen.. And then it'll also increase the feeling of teamwork amongst the group if the leader does pause and listens a little more intently and carefully, and then allow other people to have a voice and to sometimes take ownership of certain things. Because some people are so, um, go-getter and so achievement-oriented that they sometimes take on too much and don't let their people think as much for themselves because they, they think, oh, my leader is going to figure it out.

Right, right. No, and I, I used to be right there, so I could, I, I could feel my heart racing, starting to race, and then I'm like, okay, no, I just need to breathe because that's not the where I live anymore. Uh, but you mentioned several things that I want to I want to drill into. So first off, you said there's ROI in pausing. So, uh, so help us understand what you mean by that and what that looks like, you know, especially because ROI is obviously a benefit. So if they hear this ROI and say, wow, okay, so I can get more benefit out of pausing, what would that look like?

Yeah, well, maybe, um, if it's okay, I'll step back and look at the bigger picture of perhaps why I even went into the study and the overall, overall why happiness in a workplace does bring ROI. And so, so many businesses now, if you look at the data, people are burnt out. The vast majority of businesses are. And it's a variety of reasons, obviously, because of COVID and stresses in the economy and in the world.. And so people are leaving, they're quitting. If people— if you have a happy work culture, work environment, you'll have people stay 4 times longer. They'll put in 65% more energy. They're, they're going to be flourishing. So it's in life, it's happiness that creates success, not the other way around. So in our society, there's this thing called the hedonic treadmill. We're always nonstop looking for the next thing to achieve. But it's actually, if we're happy, then that's when our brain is the most open to being creative, to being the most innovative, to being the optimized. And that's when we can flourish the most. And so if you bring that analogy to the workplace, when people are happier, that's when you'll have a more successful company. And people want to be seen and heard. And by pausing as a leader, you can hear and you can see your people more instead of you taking up a lot of the airtime and taking action and having that whirlwind, right? Then you, then you help your people be happier to be seen and heard. And then they'll take more ownership, they'll have more things that they will innovate around. And then you're going to have more, you'll have that ROI that you asked about.

Yeah, no, that may, and that makes perfect sense. So you said, you said pause, meaning, you know, listen more, so forth and so on. But What does the scope of pause look like? Because it's beyond just the listening, right? You know, slowing down and listening. So, you know, can you give us a day in the life of pausing as a leader?

Yeah, so definitely it does include the literal what I was saying of pausing in a meeting. I think that in taking— looking at a whole day, So I talk often with leaders about if they meditate, if they do things, they have some kind of ritual in their day that helps them to reflect. And many now are starting to take, add the 10 minutes or carve out the 10 minutes or so in their day to meditate. And it's something that I have thought about for years to do, and it was really, really hard for me in the beginning. I actually would set my— on my— I would— I downloaded the Insight Timer, and it was a struggle to go beyond a few minutes, like under 5 minutes, but building up to it and then just really, really being present. And that's what meditation really teaches you, is to be present, because the data shows that we spend the vast majority of the time worrying about the future or thinking about the past, and then we can't be present. And we can't be there for our people, whether at home or at work.

Right.

And so I think, first of all, in a day, I think it's important to carve out that time. And usually people, when they haven't done it, they think it's a waste of time. But then once they start doing it and once they get in the practice and seeing the benefits, they realize, wow, I notice when I don't have that 10 minutes in my day, how I don't have that ritual, that habit. Then it really makes me a little more stressed out. So I think actually outside the workday, having that helps you operate the most effectively during the workday.

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Do, uh, having a little more calmness about it and more thoughtfulness and therefore more respectful Everyone wants to be respected. Yeah, yeah. It's the way you act, uh, it's the whole way you carry yourself. And I think that's what is reflected in, in people will notice that.

Yes, yes. And do you really— let me ask you something from what you commented, um, earlier on around, you know, especially nowadays with the pandemic. Do you really see, um, that it's any more stressful, or, or are they different reasons that people are stressful? But it's always been— there's very, you know, go-getter, ambitious, aggressive, action-oriented people who all have always needed to learn how to pause and reflect and slow down? And they— there was challenges 50 years ago as much as there's challenges today, they're just different. Or has the last, you know, several years added an additional weight?

Yeah. So I think, of course, everyone's different. And for some people, they like the Zoom culture more because they think it can be more efficient. There's no commute time. They don't need to go anywhere and they can actually have more meetings and ask for more things to be done.

Yeah.

So for some personalities, they prefer the remote culture. And then for other personalities, they really, really miss the in-person type of communications, reading in between the lines, reading more body language. And then being able to share more in that format and get to more of the meat of certain topics if they're in person.

Right.

It really differs per person.

Yeah.

So some people think it's better, some people think it's not. I, I think that companies should strive to have some form of hybrid so that they're— they don't lose that human touch, because I think you can't replace that.

Sure. And I love what you said about, you know, there's just different styles and there are, right? And do you find that many leaders even pause to recognize that when they're in a room with all their people, there are very different styles and very different means of being productive and effective and being motivated and being and feeling like, you know, they're being valued beyond the fact that there's a checklist that everybody gets and they're kind of operating and managing their people as if they're all the same. Do you find that at all?

Yeah. So I think traditionally people were told you need to move toward what your boss's style is like because they're not going to change. That's sort of like the traditional mode of thinking. And it is true that it's really hard to change somebody, especially after they get to a certain tenure and age and years of experience. I think now the mantra is more that leaders need to listen to, especially with all listening to many voices because of DEI, listening to a lot. But I think it's very hard. I think that people say that a lot, but they may not. It's hard for them to actually— it's easier to say the words. It's harder to actually reflect than action. And of course, actions speak louder than words.

Yeah.

So I think to that end, it takes an extra effort to really reflect back and understand what you're doing. And knowing thyself is the essence of leadership. And a leader who is self-aware is, is the most enlightened leader. And when I conduct 360s for clients, it can often be really career-changing in the sense that they can have some ahas and realize, wow, I'm doing that. I have that impact on my people. And then think through how they're going to change. And some people, it's really hard for them to, or they don't. It's really about your intrinsic motivation. Do you really want to?

Right.

And those people who I think really care about other people and really doing the right things, they will really take note and put together an action plan on how they're going to change. And then some people, you can't— I don't ever advocate someone to change their core essence and who they are and just the way they're wired. So it's sort of like realizing, okay, in this role, What are people feeling and thinking about my leadership? And then what can I do to change? And what things will just not— I can't be myself.

Yeah. Right.

So, so it's, I think it's really good to understand yourself and, and knowing yourself and how people view you is going to help you be a better leader.

Right.

Right.

And then at the same time, it also helps you to recognize that the, the, you know, the other people, their people, um, you know, they may not align or agree, but at the same time, if they use them, really understood the other people's natural styles and essence— as I love that word, an essence— they can accept that, okay, well, this person, you know, it does prefer remote, for instance, or does require a lot of like go-getting, or One requires stroking, the other requires direct talk. And so do you find that leaders also need to really tap into being able to observe and understand their people to find the best way that person— not them— that person needs to be drawn out and have their essence leveraged to the point where they're very productive and they do flourish, in your words?

Yeah, I think that the leaders who take the extra step to know their people, even personally, their team will definitely take note and be like, wow, they take a personal interest. And so I think that asking that extra question about how are things going with your parent who's ill or whatever the situation might be, And then doing that helps to understand the person and what you're saying as far as what they're like and what motivates them and how they like to communicate. Just knowing your people better, like knowing yourself, and then you're saying knowing your people, right? That is— people take note because it's not the norm. It's more unusual. So leaders who take that personal interest, people take note and they comment on it.

Yeah, fascinating, fascinating. And then because of that, and I love the whole focus that you have in your business in regards to people will flourish, you know, leaders can pause and then even learn about other people and then to the point where they then feel safe, their people feel safe in very even challenging times to broach a very difficult subject or bring up something that they don't agree with. So help us understand psychological safety and how that too works toward a very flourishing, a very healthy team and a group of individuals.

I had a big aha last year. I was back on campus in Boston at Harvard Business School at my 30th reunion. It was delayed a year, so it was actually 31 years. And I was able to be in the classroom of Amy Edmondson, who is the guru of psychological safety. She wrote The Fearless Organization.

Yeah, sure, sure.

And she talked about Project Aristotle at Google, which a lot of people know about. And the two things that— so for those who don't, it was a very, very extensive study that Google did because they were so interested in figuring out what makes the most successful team. What components are they? You know, what is it? How many? What schools do they go to? What are their backgrounds? Male-female ratio and all these different things. And they have, of course, so many analytical capabilities. They poured through tons of research, poured through tons of their data. And what they found out was actually quite simple. It was two things. One, the two components were one where everyone in the group was about able to have equal voice airtime. And the second thing is that people really could intuit how each of their teammates was feeling. And so this was the basis, it's psychological safety. And I had the aha that my first year at Harvard Business School where I did not perform at my best at all. I felt very psychologically unsafe because our grade was largely based on our comments, how much airtime we had. And it was really hard for me to get a word in edgewise. And I did not feel safe. I did not feel like people, anyone in my section— well, I shouldn't say that for all my sectionmates who might be listening. Um, I end up writing about it and there was quite a bit of debate. Some people privately wrote me and said, yeah, you go girl, that's so awesome that you wrote about all the sharks in our section. And they also have this thing where, um, I believe 5% are asked not to come back, and then 5% make Baker Scholar. So on either end, and then 10% make for honors. And so a lot of people are driven to be at the top, and people are paranoid. They don't want to be at the bottom, and everyone is, is really good. So it's not like the people at the bottom aren't good, they don't get as much airtime. So I was living in fear the whole time that I was not going to be able to get any airtime in, and I was going to flunk out. I actually wanted to leave. I was thinking about leaving. So I had this aha, oh, because I didn't, I didn't put a package in a bow around what this— I had it. So I ended up writing about it. And it was interesting because some people in my section wrote me privately and said, what are you talking about? Like they were against what I was saying. Um, and then some people really applauded me for saying it. So aha, from being in the classroom of the professor who writes about psychological safety about my experience 33 years earlier, because when I was a first year at business school. So it's always helpful when you can feel it in your own personal life, something, some theory, right? And then of course I apply it to my clients. And because it shows— so Google found out that the most innovative teams are such, and it's all because of the way your brain is wired, the way your amygdala works, because we're wired from, from our early, early days to flee if, um, if an animal is running towards you. And so that's so, so a lot, a lot of work environments, there's some fear and that fear makes your amygdala not— your brain not work as well as it could. And so when you remove that, that's when all the good ideas can come up. And that's what Google found out in their— they poured through a lot of data to come up with that. Simple conclusion.

So was your aha moment the fact that it was psychological safety, that you were feeling unsafe? Was that your aha moment, or was your aha moment that you found how to circumvent what you were feeling so you then were able to go on and be successful in, uh, you know, finishing and graduating?

Ah, okay. Um, well, when I was at school, second year was a lot different. It was calmer and you could work with your— I wasn't with my section, right? I just took classes that I wanted to take. Um, and, uh, was with different people. So I was outside of that scary environment, but as far as the aha that I had being in the classroom, so I write a weekly column and it's themed on happiness and leadership. And what happens is since I'm on deadline every week for that in my life, from taking my piano lessons to being in a classroom to Wherever I am, I'm always keeping a list of topics that I want to write about. And then sometimes when I process, when I'm drafting my column, I have the aha. And I think for that one with Amy Edmondson, I love being in her classroom. It was so intense. She's such a good professor. She's amazing. And we had such good dialogue in the classroom. And then I read her book and then, and then it all came together. It just like, I think it's all these different pieces of being there, experiencing it, reflecting, writing, which processes. Cause I was like this week I was sitting in with Teddy, my piano teacher, and we were processing something he was teaching me. And he knows now, cause I mentioned him several times in my column. I'm like, ah, that relates to business this way. He may not quite understand what I'm talking about, but he knows that my brain is processing for a feature column and he thinks it's pretty cool. So I like to interrelate everything I'm doing.

Synthesize. Yeah, absolutely.

It's interesting, my music columns, when I embed that in my work, a lot of people, because so many people also do play or enjoy music, it's, it's very relatable.

Yeah, sure. I do it with pickleball.

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, and of course, everyone now does.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I use all my experiences from leadership to competition to teaming, you know, I kind of all of a sudden on the pickleball court, I'll be like, That's a great subject for—

Exactly. That's great.

Yeah.

I tell people that usually I get my best ideas when I'm not sitting at my desk. It's when I'm running. It's when you're doing something else that you enjoy, where you can really think. Yeah, because your brain is comfortable. It's relaxed. Yeah.

So it's free. Well, that brings us back to the subject of pausing can bring leaders, you know, and teams, you know, a lot of happiness. Because, you know, so is that an element too that do you coach your clients to, you know, even step away, you know? And is that part of the pausing is the step away? Because once you let it all go, you have— you're opening space up for new ideas, like you said, innovation. So can you share with us too, you know, even from that regard, um, what leaders could be doing to create pause and therefore innovation and ROI? Yeah.

Yeah. That's not an easy thing for many people to do. And it took me going through a very dark place a couple of years ago, being— I went through a very severe depressive episode. That's why I re-energized my happiness studies. And I'm in a year-long certificate program with Tal Ben-Shahar, who created the course at Harvard on happiness, on positive psychology. So going through that really, really difficult time is what is now I'm a lot better at pausing because I, because back when I was going through all that, some people were saying, really encouraged me to work with my breath, like breathing and breathing forces you to pause in meditation. There's a lot of breathing and meditation. So I've realized that in the last year and a half, since I went to remission from the being in this, got out of this dark place, when stressful things happen, I'm a lot better. And people have noticed that. And it's, and also one other thing I do is I look at the situation, like I step outside my body and I like look into it. Like I'm not it. I look at it. And so you're not that stressed emotion. So you're looking at it and that takes some pausing to do that. Cause you're reflecting, right? And it's really calming the combination of pausing, breathing, looking at it and, you know, this too shall pass. So I think that the saying like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, it's so true. Challenges— we all have challenges. It's the toughest challenges that make us grow the most.

I would agree. Yeah.

And so I really— I created this body of work called Happiness Works, like capital H and capital W, because I've learned that the science of positive psychology works, but it takes ongoing work. And why I love going to companies, organizations, and putting together programs on Happiness Works is because I know there's so many people who are in the place that I was a couple of years ago, in a dark place. And I really want to help those people. And then, of course, there's a virtuous cycle that what you teach, it's that I'm doing my work too. So it's a very beautiful virtuous cycle.

Right, right. Well, and you know, as I've been doing this show for 12 years and, you know, having a lot very not similar topic, uh, conversations, but the themes are often overlap. One of them being, why do you think, Grace, that it takes someone to be in a dark place to feel a significant pain to just kind of be at the lowest, you know, point in their life in order for them to, to then kind of make a change and find that happiness. What, what is it about that? Which, which might sound, um, your story was like that, right?

What is your story?

Uh, yes, yes, yes it is, yes it is, yes it is. But why can't we get to the point where you know, even young people or educate, you know, the education system. What makes it so hard for us to proactively put the things in, in our lives and in place in our lives to where we're— we don't have to get to that dark place in order to then realize these beautiful transformations that you're talking about?

Yes, I think oftentimes a couple of thoughts. One is that until you experience something, it's hard to teach and want other people to have something better. Because until I understand— like, you read about suicide all the time. Until you are yourself suicidal and understand what it feels like to be in that bad situation, it's hard to want to go out and help people. I mean, you do want to, of course. Like, no one doesn't want to help. But once you experience it, there's just a deeper thing. Also, um, um, so that was the first thing. Um, there was another thing I was going to say. Let's see. I— because you're part of your other question was why it takes— yeah, so sometimes you don't have to get to that point. And actually, Happiness Works is— is so— so the, the whole reason positive psychology, the field of it, was founded 25 years ago is before When Marty Seligman at Penn founded the field of positive psychology, he counted up the numbers of research studies that were done on human maladies. So this is all within the psychology field because he was president of the American Psychological Association at that time. And then he counted up the number of research studies that were done on human flourishing. So this, this answers your question. And he realized that the ratio was a 21 to 1. Human maladies versus human flourishing. And he thought it was high time to flip that ratio. He also found out that the incidence of depression had increased tenfold in the last four decades. He also found out that the incidence of the onset of the age of depression had been cut in half to the age 14, about a time when a student enters high school. And that was not a good trend. So he thought instead of fixing things once they're really bad, And that's like when, when someone goes to that dark, deep place, right? Instead, focus on what helps people flourish so they don't get in that deep place. So, so it takes ongoing work to be happy, to flourish. And I realized it because I started my happiness studies 8 years ago when I was about to become an empty nester because I have a genetic predisposition toward depression. And so I did that in anticipation of becoming being thrown into despondency because as a single mom and with only one child, I thought, um, oh, when my son leaves, I'll— what am I going to do? And then many years later, because of a series of things that happened, my dad passed, my mom passed, I had some personal and professional, um, challenges, and then I moved homes, um, after 25 years. So there's a compounded grief that happened that caused me to fall into this deep, dark place. And that's when I Zoomed into my 30th Harvard Business School reunion. Arthur Brooks was speaking on his book, From Strength to Strength. And it's talking about finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in the second half of your life. And that's what gave me remembering my studies 8 years earlier with Tal Ben-Shahar because I did all his happiness, positive psychology studies back then. And then I realized, wow, that really helped me to be in that year-long study that I was in when my son was going to college. And then I said, if I ever get out of this dark place, I'm going to restart that. And because I was in such a bad place, I said, I want to help others.

Nice.

To, to exactly to your point, for them to stay good so that they don't get in this dark place, but also people who are in the dark place who get out and be that better place. You can stay at that better place. And that's why the field of positive psychology was started 25 years ago. It was founded in Acamel, Mexico. That's when Marty Seligman got together with Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who's the father of flow. And I had the opportunity to go study with Tal Ben-Shahar in Acamel, Mexico last fall. We were having a retreat with some of his students from around the world who were all happiness journeyers. Work for all of us who are teachers of this. And so we have to walk the talk and do all the things that we recommend in our workshops for our students.

I love that. Happiness journeyers. I love that. I'm scribbling. Yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. And, you know, you're right. I mean, it's— and I'm so thrilled to be able to share you and the fact that you are looking at it, you know, your Happiness Works. And you're looking at it proactively. And at the same time, you want to help those that are in the muck, you know, kind of rise up. And so, you know, that's absolutely awesome. So if there was one thing around our subject of pausing to find happiness, flourishing, helping yourself and your teams, if there's one really key tip or action, especially for our action-oriented people that are listening and watching, What would you suggest they can start acting on right now after they're done listening to us?

Well, I love what you themed the pause. And actually, I'm thinking about going back and creating a music analogy and thinking about the pauses in a piece, because oftentimes you kind of miss them, but they're just as important actually as taking the pause, like the rhythm. So I'm thinking about— I'm going to create some kind of musical analogy for your theme and the pause. I think learning— and it's different for everybody because there's many variations of a pause, right? How you take a pause, right? And there's different levels at which people are currently and where they want to be and where they can get to. And so my takeaway would be think about the importance of it. Think about how you are going to take action. How are you going to pause? What are you going to do differently? Yeah, yeah, that pause.

And it doesn't just have to be through meditation. It doesn't, you know, they can find their own modality, right, around what, what pause looks like for them. Is that right?

Yep, yep. And in thinking through the music analogy, how the pause is just as important as playing out. And Oprah, who many know is one of the world's best interviewers, she uses the pause and silence as a reflection point to give space and hold space. And as a coach, we have to be comfortable with pausing to hold the space for our clients. Yeah, pause is really important.

And so, well, it's funny, and we're going to continue talking on this point because you just brought up a couple of things for me. Even in sales, right? They tell you, you know, in sales they tell you that you have to kind of do your spiel and then shut up, like go silent and, you know, create that even uncomfortable, uncomfortable space in order for them, you know, to give grace, like you said, to the others. To, you know, to whoever it is you're selling to. But it also relates in so many places. I take up— I take stand-up comedy and in my pickleball, you know, pausing, you know, even when you're on a court and you're about to hit and yet slowing down and pausing, you know, it can change everything in so many aspects. So pausing was all your subject, by the way. I just happened to create a theme to it, but because I knew that that was a big, big element of your finding, you know, happiness flourishing in the workplace. Yeah, I think that's fabulous. But I want you to have the last, the last word. So go for it.

Yeah. So improv. Yes. And because you're talking about stand-up comedy, pausing will make you say 'and' versus 'but.' I think it does.

I've taken improv too. Yes, it does. I wasn't— I wasn't the most patient and pause-oriented, so it took me a long time to under— you know, to get to that.

As long as you say 'and' if you're correct, people, that's good.

Correct. I didn't do that all the time, Grace, but thank you for thinking that I did. Anything else you would want to share with everyone? And please, everybody listening, watching, savvygrowth.com. You can also follow her on LinkedIn at Savvy Growth. And in order to get her newsletter, before I ask her to share some more of her wisdom, you can join her Happiness and Leadership Community on LinkedIn at— it's a tiny URL. So just go to tiny.cc/happinessnewsletter and be sure to link in and follow her on LinkedIn and go, of course, her website, savvygrowth.com. But what, what last wisdom would you want to share?

Figure out what your pause is. Sweet.

Awesome. That's fabulous. Grace, thank you so much. This has been So enlightening. And I made a number of notes of the resources that you mentioned. And for everybody listening and watching too, I'll make sure all of the resources she mentioned, even the study, the books that she's mentioned, all those links will get into the show notes. So we'll get all of her links as well into the show notes too. Grace, thank you so much.

Thank you, Bernadette Boas. It's been fabulous speaking about this fun topic.

Wow. Now, Grace is a powerhouse, a powerhouse when it comes to happiness and flourishing and really being a leader that is grounded in pausing, self-awareness, and even being a happiness journeyer, which I absolutely, absolutely loved when she mentioned that term. Wouldn't you love to be a happiness journeyer? Let me, let me share some other takeaways that I had, and I would love to to learn in the comments below, what did you take away from the conversation? And what is it that you can even start acting on yourself in order to find more happiness in your work and life? So some of the things that really resonated with me is the fact that people want to be seen and heard, and when they are, they take ownership and they open up the opportunity in the space for major creativity and innovation. She then went on to say, knowing thyself is the number one success key for leaders, knowing thyself. And she went into further conversation in regards to that, leading into a conversation about her time in university and a class that she took around positive psychology with Amy Edelson, who is the author of The Fearless Organization. So take a listen for that. And then she went on to really talk about the ROI of happiness. Leaders, listen up. The ROI of happiness. There is absolutely documented proof that there is qualitative and quantitative benefits of really instilling happiness within yourself and your team members. So there was a lot that we discussed in this conversation.. And so I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, leave a comment. But if you are also struggling within yourself and amongst your team with trying to find that happiness, being a happiness journeyer, flourishing, or finding pause so you can find that space to really feel happy, joyful, and fulfilled, then book a call with me at coachmebernadette.com/happiness. Discovery call, and let's give you tips and strategies as well to really become that powerhouse leader or even that happiness journeyer. Uh, until next time, thank you so much for being here, and I'll look forward to having you with us the next time. Take care, everyone.