How to be an Unapologetic Leader with Patricia Suggs

Have you dealt with inequity of pay, imposter syndrome, workplace bias, or simply being overlooked for promotions? Sadly, too many women have at many organizations up and down all levels of an organization. Instead, would you prefer to be unapologetic in your leadership that will take you straight to the top? In this episode, leadership and conflict resolution expert Dr. Patricia Suds with Arise Leadership Consulting, will share strategies and tips for ditching the need to climb the ladder and instead take a smooth elevator ride by navigating bias, standing up for yourself, dealing with imposter syndrome, and dealing with conflict effectively with great compassion. Today we are transforming you into the powerhouse leader you are meant to be. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch. The podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Welcome to the show, Patricia.

How are you?

How are you?

I'm great. It's wonderful to be here.

It is wonderful to have you here, especially to talk about this topic, which I absolutely love, unapologetic leadership. And you cover like a great deal when it comes to this subject around being unapologetic for, I'm assuming, who you are. But I'd rather hear from you. What does unapologetic leadership look like to you in a leader?

Okay, for me, it's because I specialize, I work largely with women typically, and the unapologetic for me is that they are willing to stand, stand up within their true power and leadership and not apologize for it. Not— they can be authentic, they can be female, they can be everything they are and not apologize for that and not have to make excuses or try to be like other leaders. They can be who they truly are.

Yeah, which I absolutely love. And I know I want to get in a whole lot because in the intro we talked about how you really kind of look at it as them needing to ditch the ladder and find the elevator or take the elevator. But you also talk about the fact that this is all about navigating bias and You know, standing, standing up for yourself, so forth and so on. What brought you personally, what brought you to this area of focus and expertise in your, from your own experiences?

Yeah, I think actually I know it came from my experience as a minister in the late '70s, you know, coming, going to seminary very few women there, starting to serve churches for a while, and they had never had a female pastor. I'd never had a female pastor, so I didn't know what it was like. And facing the bias from the hierarchy in the church as well as just individual congregations. But we're Methodist, so we have a conference, and there was bias there. There still is. So I think it was facing that and learning how to navigate it Sure. And also, I then went on to become an associate professor in a medical school, and they had the same kind of issues. They still do. That is just, you know, it's going to come out. And for me, the bias was pretty blatant. I mean, they didn't hesitate saying it's because you're female or because you have a baby, you know, whatever. Now it's more they have to cover it up with other excuses. I really want to help women learn that sometimes when they're told things, there's bias underneath it that's keeping them held back. Yeah, you really don't— you know, I don't want that for any of the women.

Right, right. And I don't know about you, and this just popped into my head, but, um, I'm one of 12 children. I have 6 brothers and 5 sisters. And this whole subject that we're talking about stunning to me that women are still dealing with it because we have dads, we have uncles, we have brothers, and they have, they have daughters, sisters, mothers. And to think that they accept, you know, kind of the discrimination and then the inequity.

Oh, absolutely. It blows my mind too. And I, I even had one friend one time say that she didn't experience any bias in the ministry. And I'm like, oh, really? But yet she told me issues she was having and I'm like, yeah, okay. Well, that's a good point.

So have you found in your career and in your experiences that people just don't understand the concept? Like they don't really truly know what bias means and looks like, and therefore they express it, you know, in, in what you just said, um, in their own encounters, but at the same time they're not labeling it bias.

That's true. I do find that. I think because it is more covert now, you know, it's not politically correct, it's not legal actually to say things that are blatantly biased. So they, they do cover it up and they make other reasons or other excuses. Yeah, they may say things like, well, you're just not ready, you know, maybe down the road. I mean, there's all kinds of things they can say. And as long as you accept all of those, it's going to keep happening.

Right, right.

Yeah.

So what do they need to do to not accept it? What steps do they need to be taking to ensure that they don't accept those type of new excuses?

I think when they hear them, to ask for a lot of, a lot of the reasoning behind what they're being told. I mean, not to accept it at face value, to begin asking questions. Now wait a minute. Or if they have seen their male colleagues in particular, have the same kinds of issues, but they're going forward, but yet they're holding the female back. It's bringing that out. I had that experience when I was just entering seminary. You have like all this hierarchy stuff you have to go through. And I remember talking to one of the men, young men, who was going through the same system I was. And I remember saying, well, gosh, didn't you think that was awful having to do da da da? And he goes, I didn't have to do that. And I'm like, oh, really? Well, this is interesting. Oh, no. Oh, that was years and years ago. So I know it still happens. And you just have to keep questioning it. You know, you can do it in a, in a nice way. You don't have to be, you know, belligerent or aggressive, but just say, you know, I really need to understand what's happening here.

Right? Because isn't there a fear? Do you find that women also have a fear of challenging and pushing back? Because then again, that's going to be used against them. Is that your experience? Uh-huh.

Because many will say, you know, well, they're afraid of losing their job if they confront their boss. They're hesitant because maybe, you know, he'll take it the wrong way, and— or they'll be called bitchy, if I can say that. The show is called Shedding the Corporate Bed, so yeah, being called that, or being called— because when women use their their talents. And when they come back at someone challenging, then we're called bitchy. Whereas when men do it, it's what they're supposed to do. I mean, men, and men question everything. I mean, they're not going to sit back and, and take all of that. So I think we have to be willing to just begin to probe a little bit more, begin to understand a little more, find out the history of what usually, what has happened in the past with this particular boss. Is something like this pretty common with women, or is it common with everyone? I mean, all of those issues you have to understand. And too many times women just feel like, you know, if I just put my head down and do my job and I don't mess with anybody, I don't cause any trouble, that they will recognize my talent and I will move up. And that is so far from the truth.

Yes. Like someone's going to walk in your office and tap you on the shoulder and go, okay, it's your turn.

What's up? Without— good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That way. It really does not.

Right. So what is your thoughts on the fact that they just need to find a different means of communicating and asking those questions and probing for that information, as opposed to, you know, just going— like you said, they don't have to be bitchy about it, they don't have to be aggressive about it. So do you find that there's things that they need to be doing to formulate that conversation?

Yeah, I think so. And it's using a lot of the skills. And this is the one training I really love doing because I think even men— well, I know men and women need it. It's how to deal with conflict or difficult situations. It's how to stand up for yourself in such a way it's not seen as aggressive. Da da da da. And there are ways to do that. For example, if you go to someone and you're just asking for clarification, I need to understand what's really happening. You said this, tell me what that really means. And do it in such a way that you're not mad, you don't go storming in. The tendency, at least that's the way I was before I learned all the skills with conflict, is I just get defensive and get angry. And of course, it looked bad on me.

It didn't help anybody.

And we just kept going in circles. It never got anywhere. But when you use skills like Two that are really important are you learn how to do deep listening, you learn how to really hear what the person is saying, and you question until you understand it. So you'll say things like, okay, here's what I'm getting from you. Is this correct, or is it— are you trying to say something else? Um, and powerful questions when they talk to you, you know, just be curious. What is it I want to know about this? And the big thing that I think really too to start with is to begin learning to start out with your intention of being, I want to make this work, I want to have a good relationship with my colleagues and my bosses, that's what I want. And so you approach it with that kind of intention instead of, I'm angry, I'm gonna get them. You know, I've— there were times I wanted to do that in the, in the church especially. I wanted to I could have gone and complained and all this kind of stuff, but it wouldn't have done me— there's something I let go. I mean, I learned which was the battle and which was the war, and I make it to where I could still win what I ultimately wanted to do without having to win every battle.

Yeah, so don't react, kind of take a pause. And do you talk about like them really being purposeful. You said intentional, purposeful about thinking about how are you going to ask these questions?

Oh yeah, you think about it before and you train yourself. This took me a long time. Well, not huge, a long, long time, but it did. For a while I had to practice a lot learning how to keep in conflict training. They call it non-anxious presence where you're— you don't have the defensive you know, arm folding. You don't have a defensive stance.

You—

and you don't show it in your face. I mean, typically people can read me like a book if I'm angry. But I learned how to really keep it totally neutral and just say, okay, I just— let me ask some questions, you know. And I kind of prepare myself before I go to this person or group and just know this is how I want to approach it. And don't let what they say derail it. Yeah, it's easy to do that. Sure, sure.

Well, and wouldn't you say that it's easy to have the conversation shut down, especially? Oh, what is your thought process on open-ended questions versus just yes or no questions?

Oh, you definitely want open-ended questions and you don't want— I mean, like what you said is exactly true. You don't want to shut down the conversation and depend— and yes, no questions are okay, but you're not going to get very much. From that. You're not going to get a good explanation. But you can ask those open-ended questions in a way that's not going to make them defensive. You know, if you point the finger, they're going to get defensive. If you begin to argue, they're going to get defensive. So the best way is to just very calmly say, you know, I really would like to have a conversation with you and talk to you about such and such, or just, can I have a few minutes of your time? And then do it in a very calm way. I have found that, golly, that works really, really well. And many times what I'm finding is I get the result that I want, which is the win-win for everybody, right? Absolutely.

Yeah. What is your approach in regards to even backing up and being more proactive in that you seek out those individuals as mentors, advocates, sponsors? Is there something that especially the female leaders need to understand when it comes to having those type of partners?

Right. You know, it's interesting. When I was in not— I mean, ministry and the medical center, my main mentors were male and I picked them carefully and they picked me. They were not putting me down. You know, we met, we, you know, worked on some committees together, and they would ask, you know, how I was, and they would give me ideas, they would help me, I could ask them questions. And the more I got to know them, I realized, oh my gosh, these are the mentors that I really need. And in a male-dominated profession, you don't always have female people that you can turn to, you know, that are in that experience. And so it took me a while, but I think it— you have to observe and you have to Don't poo-poo the idea of using males as mentors. They're wonderful when they're supportive. I mean, they're fantastic, right? And they can open doors that sometimes other women cannot. So, you know, it's not saying I'm going to limit who's my mentor, but I'm going to go for the person after observing and being around them for a while who seems to get me, to understand me, and they're not using me for their own gain. They're helping me in my own movement within my career. And they're doing it in such a way that it shows it's to help, not to hinder. But you have to be careful because some men will— of course, men and women too, you can be manipulated and you don't want that.

Right, right, right. Well, and isn't it— I mean, isn't it just also appropriate, I guess is the only word that's coming to me right now, in that they go to a man because if it's men that is kind of creating those walls and putting up those barriers, then you want to kind of figure out exactly how to navigate, right? Male thinking and male attitudes and biases, as we mentioned. So it would be more appropriate— not that it's missed that you shouldn't have a female, but it would be more appropriate to have a male mentor.

Oh yeah. I remember one time I was so angry at one. At my immediate boss. I was really mad and I had a right to be. I mean, it was— it just wasn't a good situation at that time. He didn't really know what he had done, but he had really ticked me off. So I go to one of my mentors who was male, and he said, well, number one, don't go to him like you're feeling right now. I mean, if you go like this, you've lost, right? Because they'll get immediately on the defensive. Right. And so he said, take a couple of days, make an appointment. And I did all of that. And it worked beautifully. I was open, I was honest, and my boss said, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I'd done that. Or I didn't, you know, I didn't realize. And so we ended up forging a much closer relationship. But had I gone in the way I was feeling, things would not have— no, it would not have gone well.

So you mentioned two things in there that I want to drill into. One was you said, I think you used the word criteria for who it is, the type of person that you would want. What was that criteria for you and/or what should women consider on that little checklist as far as who they should be looking for as they're observing other people?

Oh, that's a great question. I watched and noticed, for example, in the medical center, we worked on grants a lot and I had never written one, so I was looking for someone to help helped me with that. And I began watching, who do my bosses work with? Who do they— what is their relationship? Is there an influence? Who influences them? And one of my mentors was great because he was a great influencer. You know, he got me into areas that I know I don't think I ever would have gotten into. So I look for someone who— and it takes time, you gotta give yourself time to observe. But those persons who seem to be where you'd like to be, but also who seem to know, who seem to just understand how to work with other people, and they have relationships with the higher-ups. Yes. And you want that kind of person. You don't want someone necessarily that, yeah, I like where he's at, I'll go with him, but then he ends up— yeah, I mean, I had a boss too. I mean, I'm sure everyone has at one point or another that was very, you know, kind of micromanaging. There was no way I'd use him as a mentor. I mean, that was not gonna happen. And he wouldn't have been one. He just wouldn't have done it. But the other— and we never had a formal, "Will you be my mentor?" It's— I just began going to them with questions. And I'd help them when they needed it. And they would help me. If I had questions about a grant, they would involve me in those. And so I just began developing those friendships and began to see how they really worked. And the ones, the Winters that I had, I mean, they were phenomenal because they were selfless in that way. I mean, they made sure they got what they needed within their job. I mean, that they were climbing the ladder, but they didn't put that on me. I mean, they just helped me do it too. They didn't do anything that seemed like they were enhancing themselves at the cost of me. Right, right, right. And that's what you want.

Sure. And then you also then went on to say that they had given you ideas. This one particular one gave you ideas. And so what should leaders— what should leaders really look for or go to these mentors for support on?

I think, you know, for me, and I learned this really quickly, I had one boss that was a great guy, but he really was into hierarchy. And he didn't like you going— you definitely didn't go over his head and that kind of thing. But when— what I found out though, what I found out was when I went to him and asked for help on a project, like, "I need your insight. I need your help," he'd tell me anything and everything I needed to know. He was great. But don't go around him. Yes, that makes sense. And so, you know, I think go— if you have a project that you're doing, go with questions. Sometimes— I mean, this sounds really bad— sometimes I would make one up. I mean, I would say, okay, I really want to talk to him, but I need to figure out a way to enlist his help. And I always needed his help when I asked those questions. But there are ways you can do that. I found it was extremely beneficial and really helped me with that particular boss and with my project. So if you have a project that you have any questions on, go to the person you think can really help you. And you know, if you go to someone that you think could be a mentor, but they don't help at all, they just brush you off or they say, go to ask someone else, then you know that's not your mentor. That's not the person you want.

Perfect. That's perfect. So I love your, I'll call it a tagline, but the one concept that we were going to be talking about when it comes to ditch the ladder and look for the elevator or take the elevator. What exactly does that look like for leaders?

I think for me, it's instead of just going the ladder route, which is one rung at a time, and you're going up linearly, I think the elevator It's a broader concept. You know, there's— for me, it represents more collaborative. It's— it goes— I don't know, there's something about an elevator. It's faster and it's got more collaboration involved in it. It's not just saying, okay, I'm here and I'm going to take this step and then this step. I mean, there are lots of ways to advance without going straight up a ladder, right?

And only one person can take a ladder, but a bunch of people can take the elevator.

That's true. Oh, exactly. That's excellent. Yeah, you can't really— the linear way, it really is one step, one person. And the elevator, hey, you know, you got a group. You collaborate, you work together, and you move up at the same time. For me, it's just a beautiful way of saying, OK, there's many more ways to advance than that linear ladder way.

Love it. Absolutely love it. We both know, and a lot of the listeners know too, that to be unapologetic, it really requires a great degree of confidence and certainty, boldness and whatnot. What is really creating the unbelievable imposter syndrome within very smart, very capable, high potential individuals? What is creating that?

I think I read the other day, it was fascinating to me that Maya Angelou would talk about how she would— I mean, as famous as she was, she said, there are times I'm thinking they're gonna figure out I'm a fraud, you know. And I'm like, really? And there are other women high up in military I read about. There's a— there's moments where we have that. "Hey, I don't really know if I'm quite right for this position." I think a lot of it's just how we grow up. And it's not blaming, I'm not saying it's all parents' fault. I mean, it's society. It's what, you know, we're kind of expected as females to do more serving-oriented things. For example, I read something the other day about women, you know, why they want to leave corporate. Many of them. And one of the things they were talking about is that women, many of them in corporate, they end up doing so much more that isn't recognized. Like, they do more nurturing of team members. They show so much concern for their employees under them, and that they spend a lot of time dealing with what the needs are, dealing with what the team needs. Also, in DE&I activities, they're the ones But they're not always recognized for that. In fact, many times they're not paid for the extra time they put in, and they're burned out, and they're just tired of doing that. So I think for all of us, society kind of expects us to do that, to do a lot of unpaid kind of things, and we're not expected to speak out as much. I mean, even though we have come a long way, we've got a long way to go because I think there are still those in power, predominantly men, who just don't take our word as much as they take a man's. And so we're constantly thrown up against those kind of obstacles. So we, we incorporate it. We begin to think, maybe I'm not quite the best. Or they did a study on men and women applying for jobs, and what they found was women want 100% of the qualifications before they even go for the job. Men, 40 to 50% of the qualifications is enough because they figure they'll learn it on the job. They'll learn everything else on the job. They're taught to do that. Think about boys, you know, just in school. I mean, I remember that boys were, you know, kind of the, I don't know, teacher's pets many times. They, they were expected to speak out. Women weren't. I mean, young girls weren't. We weren't expected to do that. And if we did, it was not it wasn't seen as very pretty.

Do you, do you work with younger people to where do you see a change? Do you, or have you studied and researched and seen a change to where the younger people coming up behind like the baby boomers and, and whatnot, they are requiring and the women are stepping in more than older women?

I am slowly seeing, yeah, it's slow, but yeah, I'm seeing more of that, especially with Yeah, the younger generation like Gen Z, and I don't understand all of those acronyms, but the millennials, the Gen Zs, I mean, they have a different perspective, much different, and their expectations are higher.

Sure. Yeah.

When we came through, you know, we kind of knew what was happening and we just had to kind of go with a lot of it. But that's not true anymore. So yeah, I see hope.

Yeah. No, I'm the middle child of the 12. Patricia, I was bucking the system all the way. I was like, I I am getting whatever the hell I want and no one's standing in my way. I love that.

Well, and you know, in my growing up, I had an older brother, just the two of us. And I remember from the time I, I mean, gosh, it started early. My parents were like, you can do whatever you wanna do. You need to make that decision. And so it was always just understood we'd go to, my brother and I both would go to college. In fact, my brother and I both have PhDs. It was just, an important thing. We weren't forced, but they said, whatever you want to do. And that's helped me a great deal. I mean, even though I still had those issues. Yeah, I think another thing that's a sign of imposter syndrome is the perfectionist kind of, and I was always very much a Type A, and it had to be just right. It had to do it. And I still have to watch that because, you know, if it were up to me, I'd probably never put anything out because it never— I have to keep telling myself it's good enough. It's good.

Yes.

Yes. All of us as women, we have to begin saying it's good. You know, our, our best is good enough. We don't have to make it— nothing's going to be perfect. Right. Right. Need to have faith in ourselves.

Yes. And go for 80% instead of 100% and then work your way down. You know, go, go then for 60% as opposed to, you know, 180% or 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah.

Exactly. Well, in regards to kind of overall approach that women could be taking when it comes to them really becoming unapologetic leaders, what would you kind of like a little checklist of something they could be taking away right now in order to be able to be that type of leader?

Yeah, I think they need to really determine what they feel is holding them back. Is it something within them? And so many times you may not see it yourself, but you can get hints on, is it me hesitating? Is it me? You know, so be sure you understand where you're coming from, you know, and what's holding you back. And then begin to practice doing it better. Begin to practice not having those feelings. Make yourself— you know, my grandson said, I'm just going to act confident till I feel confident. I'm I'm gonna act it till I'm— so I thought, you know, that's not— you don't want to do that completely, but that's not a bad way to do it. You mean show confidence even though inside you may be trembling and going— and because I've done that many times, you're shaking, but you show it and you just stand up and you don't show that you have all those fears. And but you have to practice doing that and practice speaking out when you can. If you really are hesitant about speaking out, just start slow. Start with in a meeting, for example. If a male or even a female talks over you in a meeting, don't let it go. Don't let it pass. Don't make a big scene. Just say, I'm not done yet. I have the floor. You can speak next. Just be very, very confident and show them that, look, you're not going to talk over me. You're not going to steal my ideas. I mean, that happens a lot. You know, they— a woman says something and it's not received. A man says the same thing and it's, oh, what a wonderful idea. It's so true. Yeah, it is. And so you start, you know, don't try to do it all at once. Just start slow with small steps.

And before you move on, I'm sorry, but before you move on, what would you tell and coach a woman who that exact scenario happened to them where they brought up something, it was dismissed, a man brings it up and it's accepted, but yet you don't want to just let that pass. Right.

Right.

Just that they say so they can be recognized that that was their initial idea.

I think just before the conversation, you may have to even interrupt, you know, after it's— they're being cheering for this man's idea. I think you need to stop for a minute, make them stop and say, you know, that is a very good idea. And I really believe that's exactly what I said a few minutes ago. So I just want it known that I brought that up. I approve of what he says. I'm supportive. But I, you know, and just in some— whatever's comfortable for you, right? Yeah. But just don't do it in a nasty way. Definitely don't just cower and not say anything. It's really important that they know that you're listening and that you're seeing what's happening and you're not going to accept it. That's right. You're not going to accept it and you can do it.

It's just—

I try to convince people all the time, do it in a nice but firm way. I can stand up for my position even though it's not a pleasant one. Maybe it goes against the grain of a lot of people in the crowd, but I can do that as long as I do it in a calm, nonthreatening way. And I think if you— once we learn those skills, It makes a huge difference in how we're seen. Yeah.

Yeah. I love your tip about practice small.

Yeah.

You know, and take it from there. Yeah, absolutely love it. Patricia, thank you so much. This has been fabulous.

Oh, this has been so much fun. Thank you.

Oh, well, and everyone, please, for more information in regards to Patricia and the work that she does, go to ariseleadershipconsulting.com. And learn all about it and be sure to check her out. Reach out if you need any support and link in with her as well. Follow her on LinkedIn. You can find her at @drpatriciasuggs and be sure to follow her as well. Patricia, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Thank you. It's been great.

What a fabulous conversation with Patricia all around being unapologetic. Really kind of standing in your own confidence and power and boldness and courage and being that leader that you're always meant to be. And at the same time, ensuring that you are being respected and regarded and appreciated for exactly who you are authentically, as well as the skills and talents and expertise and experiences. That you have. So what I took away, and I'd be very curious, you can leave your own takeaways in the comment section, but I'd be curious as to what did you pick up from what Patricia said and the tips that she shared. For me, it was all around the fact that instead of climbing the ladder, those individual rungs she talked about that you climb linearly and on your own, take the elevator instead. The elevator is smoother, it's faster, and it's more collaborative because you can fit more people on an elevator. At the same time, I think she really kind of put the cherry on the top around the fact that an elevator, being that it's a group of people, are also people that can be supporting you— mentors, coaches, advocates, sponsors, peers. Whatever the case might be. So I absolutely loved that. Then she talked about the fact that each and every one of us needs to learn how to stand up for ourselves, whether that is when someone steals your idea or creates conflict, especially in a crowd, really finding the confidence and the message that you want to convey very unemotionally, but very directly around ensuring that you are being regarded and respected and not being dismissed or overlooked or having your ideas taken from somebody else. Really, really important tips that she provided. And then, of course, she talked about imposter syndrome, what causes it and what you can do about it. And each and every one of us— she talked about Maya Angelou. You know, her own imposter syndrome. I can list off a whole slew of very, very seasoned, successful, and powerful women who all could tell you stories in regards to not only when they were coming up in their careers, but even where they currently sit. Every once in a while, kind of looking around going, "Do I really fit in here? Do I deserve this? Am I capable of—" this position and this authority that I've been given. So one, be easy on yourself. We all deal with imposter syndrome, but Patricia provided some great tips for you to work through overcoming that. All right? So that's what I picked up. And again, I'd be curious at what you did. But if you are struggling in any way, shape, or form in really stepping into your powerhouse leadership, then book a call with me. At coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall. Let's talk about it so I can give you tips and advice of your own. But I so appreciate you being here with us this week, and I'll look forward to having you right back here next week. All right, until next week. Bye.