How to Build a Fun and Productive Culture with Tamzin Hall

Are you ready to have fun in the workplace and be productive, joyful, happy, and very fulfilled, uh, in the work that you're doing for yourself and even your team members? Our guest Tamsen Hall is going to help you understand how to build a culture of fun and play and why that is so vital and critical to ultimately the success of the team and the business. And she'll really pour on tips and the strategies and a list of activities that you could be doing as a team, but also one-on-one with your team member. The goal is to have fun and just be yourself, be authentic, and really build the relationships that are ultimately going to make you, your team, and the business successful. Stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders. By showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Follow Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this! Tamsen, it's so nice to see you. How are you?

I'm so well. Thank you so much for having me.

Oh, you're so welcome. I'm thrilled to have you part of Shedding the Corporate Bitch community, uh, and I love, love the topic that we're going to be talking about around having fun and being productive at work. But before we get to all of that, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Okay, absolutely. So you can probably tell by my accent that I'm in the UK. I'm in the the raining— one minute raining, one minute bright sunshine UK. I live down on the south coast, so I'm very near the sea.

Nice.

I am in the sunniest part of the UK, which means nothing if you live in a really sunny country. Um, what do I do? Who am I? I am an advocate of fun and play. So I truly believe that we all deserve— every single person deserves to live a happy life, and that is different for all of us. So what I do to have fun might not be what someone else does to have fun, but I just love having fun, laughing, and enjoying myself and spending time with people. So friends, family— I have a son, a husband, dogs. I just love filling my life with things that light me up and make me happy.

I mean, that's what life is, right? I mean, we only get one time to go around this, you know, this, uh, sun of life. Uh, you know, let's have some fun and, and be productive at the same time. And, and I would assume even when you say productive, and yes, it's referencing work because, you know, that's the, the, uh, you know, foundation of the, uh, podcast, but at the same time It also means to also be productive in being fun and happy in your life, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. I truly believe that if we are happy in one area of our life, it's so much easier to be happy in another area of our life. And if we're happy at home and everything's, you know, fun and enjoyable, it's so much easier to be more productive at home, but it's also so much easier to be happier in the workplace or in your business, and then we are more productive. Because the science says that when we are happy, we are more productive. And I know that for myself. When I'm enjoying myself— don't you find when you enjoy yourself, time just flies by and you're so much more productive? So, right. Exactly.

And wouldn't you say too that, you know, you— as if you're happy and you're having fun and whatnot hell could break loose and you're gonna handle it in a much more productive— speaking of a productive way— what is that kind of also what you're, you know, emphasizing?

Yes, because that's all around mental toughness or resilience. So if we can be in this place where we feel lots of positive emotions so that We feel that we can take on the world, that we can achieve anything, that we can really navigate any storm that comes our way. When we're in that place, it doesn't matter what life throws at us because we're in this mental tough, we're in this resilient state. But to get to that place there's lots of different factors and it is different for everybody, but I truly believe that if we get to that state through being in a happy, fun, productive culture, one where those Maslow hierarchy of needs boxes are ticked, we're in such a great place to be more resilient and to be mentally tough. Right. And the best way to get there is through fun and joy and happiness. It is, it is.

And, and, you know, the first thing that popped up to me too when you were saying that, you know, there's, you know, getting yourself to that fun and happy place— I have, I have something that I use, but I'd be interested to hear what is that one thing that you might suggest to someone to kind of even if they're kind of like negative and don't necessarily, you know, agree with the fact that, oh, you know, depending upon your mood, and if you shift yourself into a good headspace, you know, you can influence all the, you know, benefit of that. What is there one thing that you might suggest to your clients, and then therefore our listeners and viewers around what can they do immediately to kind of find that happy place?

I would say sit there and think, what makes you really excited? You know that feeling that you have, those excited bubbles inside you, like those excited, like, oh, I can't wait, I can't wait. Those, I call them kind of micro moments of joy, and just, it's that true joy What gives you that? What gives you that excitement? So for me, seeing an animal having fun. I could be, I could be on a mountain and see a cow eating grass with a cowbell around his neck and hearing that doing doing doing. That brings me joy. I can be driving along and see a dog walking next to his owner with his tail wagging, that gives me joy. So all I have to do is look outside my window or go outside and find a duck flying or anything. That, that makes me so— that gives me that excitement, right?

And you intentionally do that when you're not feeling so—

yes, yes, yeah. You know, if I'm in a Oh, I don't know. If I'm in a— I mean, I'm sharing my secrets now, but if I'm in a meeting and it's tough, or if I'm doing something and it's a hard day, or I'm training on a subject that's just hard, I might go into the toilet and I'll take my phone with me. I don't know why I'm whispering. And I'll pull up YouTube and I'll find a funny dog video or something that then gives me that— oh, I love that. Yeah, it gives me that excitement.

It's so true. I was gonna say that was the one thing that I do is I'll sit there and I'll pull up my phone and pull up, uh, you know, TikTok or Instagram and—

excuse me—

and I'll look for those dog videos and yeah, and you know, and especially the ones where they were— they're wiggling their butt and you can't help but like get what you call bubbles, like, you know, get excited. That's so cool.

Yes, and it's different for everybody, so it's different. Every single person gets that excitement excitement from— but it doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be groundbreaking. It— and actually, if we can identify those simple micro moments that you can find anywhere, right, that's going to help to bring joy into your days. Not just once, not just one-off, but pockets throughout the day that give you that that bubbly excitement.

Yeah. Oh, that's so sweet. That got me excited. Yeah, I love it. I love it. One thing, one thing, um, because we're saying, you know, to have fun and play at work, and it sounds so, uh, kind of simplistic, but you actually have a degree and you actually— your business is really centered on and has a foundation of business psychology. So help everyone understand what really that means, and then how does that translate into the work that you do, and then the effect, the impact that you have on your clients.

Okay, so you might have to remind me of those, those kind of, those questions, because I might go off on a bit of a tangent and think, what did you ask me, what was the question? So you might have to remind me, but I'll start with the business psychology, kind of what that means. So businesses, to be successful and to achieve everything that businesses want to achieve, put in their forecasts, all of that great stuff. I truly believe it starts with the people. So if the people, the people are a business's biggest asset, they are really what would make or break an organisation. I truly believe that. If you have a business full of staff who are happy, engaged, motivated, committed, loyal, productive, high-performing, you're going to attract the best staff, the best customers, and your business is going to be highly successful. It is no coincidence that the likes of Google and Virgin are as successful as they are. They treat their people in such a fabulous way. And they do all the stuff that I talk about. They make it fun, they make it happy, they make it a great place to be. And when you have a business that is like that, you then attract the customers. They just, they want to work with you, they want to be part of what you're offering. And to really, this isn't a tick box exercise, this isn't, uh, oh, we're going to give our staff free coffee and beanbags. It isn't that. Yes, this is about really supporting and helping and getting to know every single member of the team and doing that in a way that is science-based and research-based. And that's really, to me, what business psychology is. It's, it's achieving a profitable, successful business through our people and the minds of our people.

Now, now, at the very beginning of, of the discussion, you had also said that what's fun for you, for instance, is not necessarily what's going to bring someone else joy and that kind of thing. And so, and you just mentioned that if, you know, if leaders want to, you know, make their people happy and, and attract, you know, those, those type of people that they just need to really get to know their people. Now, so from what you said, I like certain things and dislike certain things. So isn't this also about the fact that you get to know them on a level of, okay, so what brings you joy, Joanne? But what brings you joy, Steve? Because they could be different, and therefore you have to kind of figure out what the individuals need, but also the collective team then needs. Does that make sense?

100%, 100%. And when you— because to build a team and to create a culture, a team culture that is aligned with your business values, and that's really going to take you and your business and your people to where you want to get to, to build a team you have to start with the individual because we are all so different, and the best teams are made up of different personalities, different skills, different experiences, very different people. And to get to know the individual people, to then be able to create a culture that is fun and happy and enjoyable for everybody, is quite difficult. Because the manager might, and I've had this so many times with clients, so a bit of a story for you. So I had a, I was coaching a client and she really wanted to do something fun, so she wanted to bring a fun activity, a team-building activity. We've all been on them, we've all had team-building activities, and And sometimes it brings, honestly, it just, it just sets off our anxiety, I think, oh, I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it. And what will happen is if you get the wrong activity, instead of bringing the team together, it will divide the team. So this lady, she came and said, okay, I've had a think, Tamsin, about what we've said, and I know what I'm gonna do. Okay, what you gonna do? I'm going to send them all up 'in a glider. Okay, it's going to be great, they're going to love it, they're going to go up in a glider, they're going to have a blast.' Of course, half the team— well, probably more than half the team— would think, 'No way, no way.' So what that would do is that would then divide the team. You then have people that don't go, you have people that are so anxious they dread the day. You'll have people that think it's great. You'll have people think, oh my gosh, I'm not good enough because I can't go up. You've got a whole range of emotions. So to do anything, it has to be something that everybody wants to do. And if everybody wanted to go up in a glider and everybody was excited about it, great. But I think it's probably very highly unlikely but not everybody in the team would want to. So it's about really getting to know everyone on an individual basis, so then you can decide. And the best, the best activities, the best events are ones where the team have decided together what they want to do themselves. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

And is that what your client did? Is— what happened?

Yeah, she didn't send them out. She didn't send them up in a glider. She didn't send them up in the glider. So I'm all about empowering my clients and helping them to get to that decision. So I always hold a non-judgmental atmosphere for my clients. So she was very excited, and I didn't want to dampen her excitement, but equally, I had a responsibility to make sure her team were okay. So we came to the decision that she would actually put a poll out and give them a couple of different options and say, hey, would you like to do this, or would you like to do this, or is there something else? And of course, not one person wanted to go after Nick Leiber.

No, I would— well, you know, some people would, majority probably not. Um, that's awesome, that's awesome. Okay, so going back to business psychology now, why did you say, um, I'm interested to hear and understand, you mentioned, but they should get to know their people through science and research. What exactly does that look like? Because again, that, you know, very similar to the, the game or the event, some people would be like, that is too, you know, anal and too data-driven than just getting to know my people.

Absolutely. And there's different ways to do this. So obviously I'm a fan of business psychology and I have a psychology background, so I I much prefer, and this is my personal opinion, opinion here, and, and other people can disagree. That's, you know, that's, that's the beauty of the world. We all don't have to be on the same page. But I believe that to, to go down the road of implementing something or changing something or discussing something, if it's based in research rather than just my opinion or something that's a bit, you know, I had a conversation with somebody earlier, so, so I'm putting together a, a presentation for keynote speak that I'm doing, and on our slides we are going to have some quotes, but obviously some quotes are a bit fluffy, a bit subjective, a bit someone's opinion, but I wanted to bring in also some statistics because the audience that we're talking to, audience who like to know that what they decide to do, actually there's a reason behind it and there's some research. Yes, absolutely. And that to me is what having a business psychology or a psychology background does. It, it makes it less wishy-washy, it makes it less subjective, it provides us with some facts and some figures to know, actually, if I go down the route of play, for example. So my dissertation was on, on play and how we can, how we can build happier teams. So I now have a, a science-based research project that gives me a conclusion that says that if we creates a, a platform for our people to come together, to enjoy each other's company, and to do something a bit creative, that leads to workplace happiness. I can say that knowing that I have completed the research on that, right? Whereas I could say Um, oh, I think most people prefer milk in their coffee, right? Because, you know, that's, that's just what— when I make a cup of coffee, that's just what happens, right?

Right. It— well, it's proof, right? It's proof, and it's which gives validation, but it also gives credibility to what it is that you're, you know, what it is that you're trying to influence, of which then they can make a decision that's not just wishy-washy.

Absolutely.

Okay, I love that. I love that. And why do you feel so many managers slash leaders, as I, I'll often say, have trouble creating fun and a happy, you know, playful workplace? What is the— what is stopping them?

I love this question. I love this question because obviously, you know, I'm doing something very different and I come across, uh, quite a lot of negativity around what I do because I'm trying to break the mold. And I can remember years ago, and I, I'd had a really successful career and I'd had my son, so I decided to get a little part-time job. And I didn't really talk about my career. I didn't really talk about what I'd done, what I'd achieved. I was just there to have a part-time job close to home and to be at home most time with my, with my son. And I've been there a couple of months and I was me. So I'd worked in a very large corporate banking organization and I'd done things a bit differently there and I was myself. So I would laugh and I'm loud and but professional at the same time. So it isn't in an unprofessional way, but I'm just I'm, I'm just me. I'm, I don't hide behind, I don't change, I'm always professional, just myself. So anyway, I, I was in this little office and, you know what, I'd have a bit of a laugh and, and I'd have fun and I'd bring fun into what I did. And my manager, a couple of months later, my manager said, Tamsin, would you like to come out and see a client with me? I thought you'd really be really good for your development. And I, I used to manage multi-million, billion-pound clients. So, you know, that, that's, that's lovely. Thank you so much. I'd love to come out and see a client with you. That, that's great, right? My colleague turned around to me, he said— and he was an older chap— and he said, Tamsin, you can't laugh. Sorry, you can't You can't have a conversation, you can't, you can't be silly, you can't laugh, you can't do what you do here. Sorry, you've got to be different, you've got to be very serious, not laugh, not ask them questions, just go in, do what you do and come out. Actually, it'd be better if you don't say anything.

Oh geez, although I'm familiar Yes, we all are.

Everybody listening to this would be. So what you have here is you have older generation, archaic micromanagement, very blue suit, white shirt, very this is how we behave at work. And what I'm trying to say is actually that doesn't work anymore. That telling people you can't talk, telling people you can't have a conversation with a customer, telling people, you know, you can't bring your personality in, it doesn't make for a happy, fun, productive workplace because we're all so unique. We are all absolutely amazing, and everybody has such fabulous traits and things that they can contribute. They've got something. Every single person has got something to bring to the table, right? And older style managers and those, those kind of management suppress that and stop people from bringing all this great stuff. And I've been coaching somebody today that has been so suppressed and so put down and so micromanaged that he is feeling just that he isn't good enough. And as managers and leaders, we have a duty to lift our people up and say, you have a voice. I've hired you because you're amazing. I want your contribution. I'm going to give you everything that I can give you to empower you, to make you feel that you have a place here, that you can feel that you can bring all the ideas in the world to me. Right? That makes business work.

Yeah, well, there's a generation, you know, there's definitely a generation that was brought up to, to be told that, you know, act like a robot, leave your emotions, leave your personality, leave everything at the door, and then just show up and do the work. And sadly, I was part of that generation, so I know. And yet, so You know, I totally appreciate what it is that you're saying because it's so powerful once they do let go. So I'm glad you're helping people to like lighten up and let go and just be themselves.

Yes. And you know, I have some amazing, and I've worked with some amazing clients who are from the generation of micromanagement, who are from the generation of robotic. This is what we need to do. But are so ready to change and see that actually the younger people, the younger generation that's coming through, they need so much more because they have, they have the internet at their fingertips. They can see, right, right, right. And so I don't think it matters what generation we are. I don't think it matters what we've grown up with, what we're used to, what we've become accustomed to. Actually, if we're willing to embrace a different culture and to, and to embrace change, yeah, it's available to everybody.

Yeah, no, it's, it's true. So how, how, or when, or no, no, not when, why does someone get to a point where, like you said about your client, you know, get to a point where they're like, yes, I want to do something different, I, I need a change here? What does it take for them to get to that point, whether they're a seasoned individual or if they're, you know, coming up into, in, you know, the ranks? What causes them to finally say something's just not clicking?

It's when they have a team of people, or themselves, are feeling disengaged, when they're just going through the motions, when they're not passionate about their job anymore. Maybe they're seeing really high turnover of staff, maybe staff are going to a competitor or leaving. I've gone into quite a few businesses where people are leaving for lower salaries. That's a high indication that something is not right. And if people aren't happy, throwing money and high bonuses and pay rises aren't enough. They're not enough anymore. People need more, they want more. So I would say if something's happening in your business and you're thinking what's going on, you must be conducting exit interviews with everybody that leaves, doing customer, doing staff surveys, finding out what your people really think. Make them anonymous. Don't say you've got to put your email address on here. Make it totally anonymous so people can be truly honest. Yeah, yes.

Well, and, well, I need to touch on that though. And is that because— and is that because, to keep it anonymous, is that because that culture does have challenges in being authentic and creative and allowing people to be themselves, and therefore there's not a trust culture built? Because in trust cultures, don't you find that, well, they wouldn't care if they have to share their email or not, but in non-trust cultures that there's some, you know, like, oh, wait a minute, I'm not, you know, giving you anything if I have to disclose who I am.

Absolutely, absolutely. If you have a culture of fear, a culture where people can't speak up, and you might not know that that is the culture that's happening below you, you might think everything's fine. But if you have a high staff turnover or high sickness rate or people are just not happy and not performing, if you put a survey out that's anonymous, you are going to know exactly what's going on.

Yeah, right.

Because people might be fearful, they might think, oh, you know, I can't— I've, I've seen director-level staff, they, they were asked to complete a survey where they didn't have to put their email address in, but they had to put their job title And in this organization, you have one person with a job title, Director of Sales. You've got one Director of Sales. Yeah. So what you had is you had all of the directors, none of them completed the survey. So you're never gonna know, right, what's going on, right?

Right. No, no, that's like— and that's so powerful because if you want that type of fun workplace culture, trusted Yeah, you need to, you need to focus on it. All right. So give us some ideas of what can leaders be doing to draw— like, what are the fun, playful, creative— you have a number of things that you focus on that I noticed in your work. So give them some ideas of what it is that they could be doing.

Okay, so one of my favourite, favourite things is to get your people into a, a room and do a brainstorming session. And this could be a— coming to the end of the year, we want to see what's happened, or looking forward, we want to see what has happened, or we've got a new project coming up. You want to give every single person a place at the table. You want to bring everybody in. Brainstorming session, it could be a— you can bring Lego in. So Lego Serious Play, where you take Lego in and people, you put people in, in teams or pair people up and they build a Lego house, or they build something, or they create something, or they create the future of the company, or the next, uh, the next product that they're going to launch, or or they create something, their ideal customer, or something. They create something in Lego. And what you do is you pair people up, so you break down the hierarchy. So you pair people up with— you have a director with a, um, a customer service representative, for example, right? And you really get people bonding, talking, creating something without those hierarchies. So that's one thing, Lego into into meeting rooms, it's great fun. You can have it where you— I love storytelling, I love storytelling, so you can say to your people, I want you to pair up and I want you to write the company's closing statement. So say we've had to close in 5 years' time, we're not successful, write the closing statement and write exactly why we closed. And what you're going to do there is you're going to have people who will tell you in a story why the business is closed, and then you'll know all the things that are wrong with your company. But it's in a safe environment because they're just telling a story, they're just doing something that's a bit fun, right? You can have— you can do things like you can book You can book days where they go and they go to an art class, send them all to an art class. You can have sessions where you have a comedian come in, or you have somebody come in and do a motivational speak. Yes, you can. There's lots of things that you can do that really help everybody, but One very effective thing that every single manager needs to be doing is having fun, regular meetings with their people, and when I say fun, you can say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna have, I'm gonna implement monthly one-to-one meetings or fortnightly one-to-one meetings with all of you, but it's going to be a bit different. We're going to go out for a walk, we're going to go to the local coffee shop, we're gonna walk around the lake and just have a conversation. You're gonna come into my office and I've got fidget cubes and fidget spinners and we're just gonna play, or you're gonna come into my office and we're gonna build some Lego, or come into my office and I've got some music on and we're just gonna have a fun conversation. And just don't make it so scary, don't make it that people think, oh my gosh, I don't want to do this. Just make it simple, fun, and engaging.

What about those individuals that they are not in an office, they're disparate, and you know, what are they doing to ensure that they can have that same type of fun but through a screen?

So one of the great things I say is, okay, I'm gonna call you at 10 o'clock on Tuesday morning and we're gonna have a conversation, but we're both going to be outside walking. Off phone, but we want to— we're going to be walking, we're going to be outside in nature. That works very well because as human beings, we aren't designed to be sitting in man-made buildings. We're not designed— we weren't— if we go back to the start of humans, we're— there's a reason why we're happier when we're in nature. There's a reason why we feel grounded when we're in nature because we're born to be in nature. So get your people outside, get them walking around out in nature. Yeah, get them moving, get them moving, and get them moving. The other thing, um, that you can do is, is give them, give them time, get to know them. So get to know what motivates them, get to know what, what, what interests them. Have they got children? If they've got children, make sure you're giving them time off for nativity plays, School stays, all the other things that parents want to be doing, right? Give them that time off. Awesome.

Yeah, awesome. So tell me about your one— your Playful One-to-One Checklist, um, because it's a free download that you're offering up our listeners and our viewers. They can find it at tiny.cc/happyworkchecklist. Tell us about it.

So it literally gives— it's a, it's a checklist, it's a fun and interactive few pieces of paper. It isn't totally time-consuming, but it just gives you some ideas on how to have those fun, engaging, light-hearted conversations with your people. And don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that there's people don't perform, there's people that need to have have those difficult conversations with, there's people that need to up their game. This is about creating a culture where they know they're supported and they know that they have everything, we're giving them everything, we're invested in them, we're giving them what they need to enjoy work. So a one-to-one checklist is, it's a guide to say, if you have people reporting into you, you have to have your regular one-to-one meetings with them. That's non-negotiable. Non-negotiable. I have, I've had clients come to me that say, I have a 5-minute conversation at the coffee machine. That isn't enough. Right, right, right. What does it need?

What is it, real quickly, what does it need to include in that one-to-one? Like you say, 5 minutes isn't enough. Why is that and what is it?

So you need to give your people the space to get to know you. You need to get to know them, you need to build trust, you need to find out about them, you need to know what makes them tick, you need to know what really drives them, motivates them. You want their ideas, you want to know what's going on, what's worked well, what hasn't worked well, what you can support them with, training, where do they want to be in 5 years' time, what can you do to support them. You want to know everything about them because the most effective thing that you can do is find what makes them tick Find why they're there, find what they want to achieve in the future, and help them get there. Absolutely.

So wait, that is so awesome.

Thank—

oh my God, that was so awesome. Yes, help them get there. That's your job, right? As leaders, that's your job. Tamsyn, this has been fabulous. I want to remind everyone, go to tamsynhallcoaching.co.uk. UK to learn all about Tamsyn and the work that she's doing. But also go to tiny.cc/happyworkchecklist. You can also find it on her website. So do that. And at the same time, Instagram, follow her on Instagram at Tamsyn Hall Coaching. And we'll have all of these links and information also in the show notes. But Tamsen, thank you so much. This has been fabulous. I so appreciate the fun and the productivity that we've had in this short period of time together.

I love that. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fabulous to chat to you. And thank you.

Yes, thank you. All right, who doesn't like to have fun at work? Not only in life, but at work. And our guest, Tamsen Hall, what a powerhouse she was. And gave us tons of very actionable, very usable tips and insights and strategies that we all could be using as leaders to really bring and build a culture of fun and work. So she kind of walked through the business psychology. She has a degree in business psychology. So she helped us understand why business psychology and if leaders really understood what that was and how to implement it, they would be a lot more successful in really engaging their people and having their people be even more committed, more productive and effective. She then went into— in order to build a team, you have to do it one individual at a time. If you want a successful team, you need to get to know that individual team member, and then the other individual team member, so forth and so on. So then all of a sudden, you have a good understanding of your collective team. And the more you understand about them, the more you're connected, the more you are building a relationship. And therefore, you know exactly what they want, don't want, what they need, don't need, and find the ways that are going to allow you to make them as powerhouse of contributors to your business as possible. All right, she then went on to talk about Authenticity and how every individual that walks in your— the door of your business or your team, whether that's remotely or not, they really need to feel safe to be themselves and to be as authentic in their own skin as opposed to, you know, taking on a persona that then either diminishes or really erodes their contributions, their skills, their talents, their ability to really maximize their contribution to the business. She talked about, she talked about, you know, you deciding, do you want a culture of fear or do you want a culture of fun? And why it's so important to kind of lean on the air— err on the side of build a culture of fun, because it will lend itself greatly to the success of you, your team, and the business. And then lastly, like I said, in the introduction, she did provide a list of activities that you could be doing with your team members as a collective team and individually one-on-one. So I hope you walked away with some great tips and ideas and insights. And if you did, we'd love to hear about them. You can always go to LinkedIn at Bernadette Boas and either direct message me or you know, create a post and, and, or look for one of the posts that we provide and provide your, your feedback, your comments, your questions. All right, and I am so happy that you are with us this week and look forward to having you, um, right back here for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bench. Have a great week.

Bye.