How to build trust in a cross-cultural team with Liu Liu

As a business leader, have you considered the impact and influence that a cross-cultural team has on your success and that of the business? Every one of us, we have teams that are made up of different cultures and backgrounds and belief systems and all of those things fueling how we operate, the decisions that we make, the innovations we create. And as leaders, the success that we have and we generate for ourselves and for the business. Now, there's a lot of challenges when it comes to having a cross-cultural team. There's even challenges when it comes to trust and engagement and connection. So today we're going to get into all of that with our guest, Lulu, who is going to share with us just what it takes to really embrace cross-cultural teams. And really take advantage of all of those great ideas and opinions and backgrounds and dos and don'ts that they bring from their own experiences and their own expertise. So we're digging deep into how to build trust in a cross-cultural team. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Fall of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this! Lou, how are you? So nice to have you.

Hi, I'm doing well. Thank you very much for having me on the show. I'm very excited to talk to you.

Oh, I'm excited to talk to you, especially around this conversation around cross-cultural teams. And I find the subject matter— and when I was looking into the work that you do, I find it really fascinating. Where you're kind of focused solely on trying to help leaders navigate the cross-cultural divide, so to speak, because it is very trying and very challenging for some while it's more natural for others. So first, as we get started, and before we do, actually, I would love to have you just share a little bit about yourself to our listeners and viewers.

Sure, sure. As you can tell from my name, Liu Liu, so I am— I like to joke with people, say I'm made in China. And so I grew up in a city in the southwest of China called Kunming, so which actually has quite a strong historical connection with the Americans because during the Second World War, That's where the Flying Tigers, General Chidam and his pilot volunteers based to help the Chinese to fight the Japanese, and also the starting point of the Burma Road. Yeah, so there's sort of historical connection with the US Army and so on and so forth. So, so move fast forward, I was working in the university in that place, and then where I met my wife. So I was a Foreign Affairs Secretary in a language center in the university, and where I met my wife from the UK, there's also a place I started working with the international community, if you like. So as the language center, we received students from over 100 countries, so it was fascinating. So they're really the starting point of me working with people across culture, across country. And then when we moved to the UK, I was— I started working in an organization, again, international organization. I'm still there. This is international, like, charity organization, help people in 50 countries.

Oh, wow.

So again, that gave me great privilege to work with people from different countries as a manager. So yeah, so that's my kind of story. That's how I really— I'm passionate about this, but also that's where I gained my experience of what works and what doesn't work. Yeah.

Nice. And what would you find— before we dive into the whole building trust on a team, what have you found to be your greatest lesson that you have taken from all the work that you've done in this space?

I think the greatest lesson as a manager or as people working in international environment, I think nowadays is actually quite commonplace. The greatest lesson for me is I say, actually, don't be fooled by the fact that everybody speaks English. So people, although people speak English, but they don't speak the same language. I think that is the biggest lesson, and this very often trips people because under the language surface, so that's how people behave and very differently because of a cultural background. And then, and many people, particularly managers, end up overlooking that fact.

So can I kind of surmise for myself that what that might look like is managers assume because they can speak English, they understand them, and yet they don't spend time really understanding them as a person with their backgrounds, with where they came from, their belief systems. And therefore, that's where a lot of the challenge can come come between managers and their people?

That's right. That's one aspect of the issue. The other is actually you touched on, try to understand. I think it's very important. There is a tendency for people to just, for all of us, we like to think my culture is the only right culture. So everybody else is wrong.

Welcome to America.

Everybody, including myself, that's a tendency that we have to really work hard to first recognize that and then overcome that.

Right. Yeah. And we're also not talking just about those leaders that might be assigned to an international function or location. We're also just talking, if we use the UK or the United States, we're also talking to those who are here in the United States, the companies in the United States, yet their employees' base is made up of people from all over the world.

That's right. That's correct. So when you're talking about cross-cultural teams, there are different kinds of scenarios. One is, like you said, people are made from different cultural background, either in person or even remotely now, very even more challenging. And then the other is you as a manager or leader being assigned to a different foreign country to work on a project. So the scenario 2 is to work on the project, but the team you're working in are solely from that country. Okay, the third one is actually you are assigned to a second country to work on a project, but the team is also assembled from an international background. So that's become even more trickier.

Right, right. Yes, yes. And I would say in my corporate background, I definitely had probably that second scenario where I worked internationally, um, and had people in other countries and other cultures, uh, that— and then even as in my role today, I work with clients all over the world. And so, uh, it's just a fascinating conversation. And now your focus, especially for today's conversation, is all around trust. And I found that to really hit my heart because I thought, oh wow, building trust in a cross-cultural team. So what are the aspects or factors that kind of go into someone needing to build trust within their team?

Sure. I think this is one of the important parts of the whole cross-cultural intelligence, if you like. So when I talk about the cross-cultural intelligence, I meant the fact that how much you know about your own culture, your own behavior. And then the second is how much you know about others and other behaviors, cultural behaviors. That's two sides of the, of the matter. So building trust is almost like step one as a manager. So if you were, whichever like the scenario you are end up with step 1, you need to build trust with your team, with your peer or your boss. That's where it becomes tricky because if I would say divide the world in a kind of rough divide, there are two groups. Of countries, if you like. So I call that hot climate culture countries and the cold climate countries. You probably have heard about it. And each group has some characteristics, like the hot climate countries, hot climate culture countries, sorry, that's okay, are quite largely relationship-based. And where the cold climate cultural countries are task-oriented and logic-based. So the cold one you are talking about, the Northern European Anglo-Saxon culture-based by large, or any countries that actually has large contingency of this population, like in, in Argentina, in South Africa, the white population. But the hot climate country, you're looking at quite a large number. Yeah, Asia, African, Middle East. So when you are faced with, I mean, these different kind of people, right?

So before you move on, before you move on, Lou, help us understand What industries, speaking of business, what industries would fit into a hot climate culture? And what industries are we talking about that are task-oriented in a cold climate?

I would say it's hard to define. I think if you say, look at the industry, right? So the cold climate culture industry, you're looking about, looking at, sorry, largely the innovation side. For example, they have the ideas, they have the design, they have the ideas, but then they often outsource the implementation or manufacturing the ideas into products into the hot climate cultural countries. So your typical example is like the Apple, everybody use Apple in the US, large. So they actually, the company in the US are only in charge of the design the products. So, but all the manufacturing has been done in China or, and then some other countries. If you look at the other end of the product, the, like the Nike, the, the, in, in America you call sneakers, So, in the UK it's called trainers. So, again, a Nike company in the US, we are only looking at the design, but the manufacture is all done in other countries. Yeah, so that's a rough divide. So, seems like the ideas, innovation seems to be largely in the cold climate countries, and where the implementation and realization of those products are in. But although that's changing, but it's a simple generalization, right?

Right. And what kind of challenges does that create, especially for those that, like you said, they have one part of their business is done in a hot, but then it's done in the— and then another part is done in the cold and vice versa?

Yeah.

What kind of roadblocks does that create for a team leader?

Yeah, so if I can circle back to say the first thing about trust is in different groups of countries, people build trust very differently. Let me give you an example. When in my many years back when I was dispatched to Cambodia, I was put in charge of all the programs in Cambodia. And then on my first trip there, I have to meet with all the so-called our local partners, people we work with. And there are two groups of those organizations. One is headed up by the expats, by European, by Dutch, by the Americans. And then the other are local ones headed up by the Cambodians. So how I build trust is I have to use different approach. So for the American and expat organizations, they literally sat me down, gave me a almost like second interview. The thing is that they want to know what qualifies me to lead up that program because that's a typical thinking in the task-oriented, cold climate cultural people. They want to see the reason and logic behind it. When it comes to building trust, they want to see your performance. They want to see what you can contribute, what you can bring to the table. So that's very key. So none of those small talks, but they want to know. And I had a similar situation a few months back in the Netherlands, and one CEO in the Netherlands, one Asian, asked at the meeting table to actually a German colleague, said, what makes you to sit at this table? So that's very blunt, but 'But that's a way to ask.' That's the way, that's the way they are, exactly. Yeah, well, back to the Cambodia story, even with the Cambodians, I know I can't even talk about business to start with because they don't know me, they don't trust me. So, well, with them, to build trust takes the relationship approach. So I would actually, I I actually invited them to meal to the hotel to drink tea, have meal together. We talk about non-related, non-work-related issues, your journey in organization, your family, anything but work. And then they get to know you as a whole person. They feel they know you, they relaxed, and then they trust you. Then we gradually move on to work, but still, and then, yeah, one day later or the day after, then we go into the office to talk about work, and then we are like, yeah, we have relationship ready, so much easier. So that's the same thing, yeah, in most of the Asian and African countries. You need to just get to Middle East as well, you need to spend time to get to know them, let them know you, right, as a person. Yeah.

So should any manager, leader who is maybe newly assigned, or maybe they've been around for a while but they haven't built the relationship or the trust in the way that they should, should they actually plan a couple of days on their trip just to get in there and get to know them before they even get to day one of the work?

Absolutely, that's what I would suggest strongly. So I know it sounds very counterintuitive to our task-oriented, task-oriented cultural people, but yeah, they will see that is what a waste of time. They want to dive straight into the, the business, but to build trust, yeah, like you say, Building the time to allow people to get to know you is vitally important. So even whether it's on a business trip or even virtually like this kind of meeting. I tell you what, very often when I have catch-up meeting with my African colleagues, an hour meeting, we can end up spending 15, 20 minutes just talk about family and all that. And you have to just bear that in mind. That's the way it is.

So Americans would have to sit on their hands and like, and pull like a rubber band to keep them, you know, peaceful.

Yes, yeah, exactly. So, but then on the other hand, it cuts both ways. Then for the people from the hot climate country, they need to understand as well It's not rude to you. This is just how the other half of the world conduct business. Right. Yes. They want to dive straight into the point. So, so it cuts both ways.

Right, right. And curious as to whether you found throughout all your years of experience if one way works more effectively than the other.

I would say that is actually— there's another part of the issue. There are different aspects of a business, as you can understand. So it's getting to know and trust each other is only the step one. So then I think when it comes to managing money, time, deadline, then the how to divvy up the tasks, divide the plan. So, all those can be done very differently. So, I think the key thing is about understanding the different approaches and then work out an agreed method, because yeah, otherwise, all we end up doing is frustrating each other. And I was actually often thinking this is very much a blind spot, and people get really frustrated. And also for leaders, particularly newly appointed leaders and managers, they can end up doubting themselves. When they stumble across those obstacles. They tried all the— if you think of all the management training people were given, even you talk about Harvard Business School, it's all about the hard tasks, right? But nobody actually tells you how to deal with people. Maybe the team building, true, but not the cultural issue.

I think it's absolutely true. I think it's absolutely true. And at the same time, there's, you know, have you found that there's a great lack of also, when it comes to training or learning in regards to communication? Like you said, you know, that example with the Netherlands and with the German, you know, where someone just simply said very directly, you know, well, that's not the way it's going to happen. You know, or, or I need this from you, as opposed to some others need it to be not even relationship-based. It needs to be a little bit more collaborative, um, than directive. Like I always say, you know, ask questions, don't make statements. So do you find that the communication differences also immediately affect the trust that you're you're capable of building in that type of cross-cultural team?

Yes, it does. I think that building the trust is really much— we're talking about the, like, building a skyscraper. Building the trust, if you like, you lay a good foundation. Once you build trust with each other through different ways, then the next step becomes easier so that you can move into the business faster and then to say, to think actually you understand, there's a differences approach. But communication again is still a constant challenge, particularly comes to email communication. So it's very tricky, it can be really tricky, but even verbal communication. After all these years I lived in England, there's a very famous phrase the English people use. You never know what it means. They will say, "This is very interesting." After you did a presentation or give a product introduction, people will say, "Oh, this is very interesting." So how do you interpret that?

Right, right. In the South here, we have a saying, Oh, bless your heart. You know, so how would you interpret that?

Yeah.

Some might interpret it as like, oh, that's nice. They're blessing, you know, my well-being. And it's not what it means at all.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So likewise, likewise, this is interesting. It's similar. Yeah, it says you must be insane, the undertones.

And so How do you guide your, your leaders to kind of better build that foundation, understand and learn the differences, set those expectations, learn how each other want to communicate? Kind of what is your approach to all of that?

My approach actually is, first of all, you need to really recognize This is the issue. Because otherwise, it doesn't matter what things people do or I do, we just end up with external. The change needs to happen both external and internal. I think the manager needs to recognize this is an issue if they are really in pain, or this could be the issue if they are in doubt. Then to really open their mind to explore with people like myself and with others to see actually what can we do to really address step-by-step breakdown of the whole business process. At each stage of the process, what are the cultural issues we need to be mindful of, we need to deal with. Yeah.

Right. And say it's a leader that just amongst their team, they have a lot of cultural, you know, differences. They have a lot of individuals that come from different parts of the world. What have you found to be the biggest struggle of, of those managers and leaders when it comes to them even taking time to understand their people beyond them getting the work done?

I think obviously time is— time pressure is, but I will say another part of the challenge is attitude because from what I observe, people generally fall into two categories. You're either not aware, and that's kind of benign attitude, or people refuse to just say, you just need to toe the line, do it my way. So yeah, it normally fall into these two categories.

Right. I would say unaware and you don't care. Those are the two categories. You either are not aware or you just don't care.

That's right. Yeah. Because the other day I was talking to a friend, actually, He's in the banking business and he manages me. Team is from India and he said, I wish they could just do the way we do it. Well, it's still that. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I have to admit, Lou, that for a long time in corporate, when I worked in corporate, I had a my way or the highway type of attitude. And I learned severely after I left corporate how damaging and how limiting, because it's very limiting. It's very, you know, it's very small-minded, you know, if you have that, take that attitude and that approach, especially in this subject around cross-culture. There's so much each of us can learn from each other, right?

That's right, that's right. I think it's like you say, is to really drop that my way or the highway. Just actually, there are so many ways of— the phrase goes, what, there's so many ways of skinning a cat.

Yes.

So yeah, just— and also bear in mind, if you look around the world, when you're going to a country to start business, you just ask yourself, this country, this civilization has existed as long as they must have been— they must have a way of doing things, right?

They must be doing something right. Yes, yes, and learn from it. Yeah, but do you find that there's too many managers, and I hesitate to call them leaders, but there's too many managers that just let their ego get in the way.

I would say so. Yeah, I would say so. That's a whole new dimension about where do you place your security and identity. Yeah.

Right. And what do you do as a global leader and coach yourself? What do you do to help those type of individuals and teams to break that down?

Well, we could look at it from a business approach to say ultimately your target from your boss is to deliver the results. So either it's profit or products. So the way to look at it, to break it down, is that If this is giving you so much pain, then why look at it differently? That could actually give you a better result, maybe less stressful. You can get a better— to feed the ego, if you like— the better praise from your boss or better bonus. So if you do it just differently, Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I just think this subject is so critical and so powerful, and I'm so thrilled that there's someone like yourself that are specifically targeting, um, this type of, this type of, um, cultural shift in the, in the business world because it's so needed.

Definitely, it's really key, and sometimes people don't even know they walk straight into that. The other day I was in London in a network event, and a person told me they had the Chinese delegation come in to talk about business. At the table set, and the head of delegation from the China side, of course they said to spread it and then the head in the middle, And because there's a screen of the projector on one side, then the English side, it just all scrunched up to be close to the projector. So that's then immediately the Chinese side being felt like they are disrespected because they don't have the counterpart to talk and face accordingly. So, but if you don't know, you don't know.

I have to admit, when I— and I can't remember what delegation this was, but I had a group from Asia come over. I was like 28 years old, and we were working, we were working on a technology project, and they handed me their business card, and I kind of took it and put it immediately in my pocket. And then was sternly corrected as far as, you don't do that. You look at, you look at the card, you turn it over, look at the other card, you acknowledge it, you know, and you never put it away. And until obviously they're gone. But, uh, that was a big lesson early in my career. Yeah, that made me slow down and pay attention to wanting to learn you know, how to best collaborate and engage with other cultures.

That's right. That's right.