How to Have Collaborative Confidence with Heather Backstrom

Do you understand the importance of cultivating empowered women leaders and the unique strengths women bring to the workplace? Our guest Heather Backstrom of Backstrom Leadership Strategies will share the 3 pillars of collaborative confidence that help women navigate corporate leadership positions and become distinctive leaders. She'll give you specific ways you can minimize micro-diminishing behaviors and boost behaviors that project confidence. And she'll discuss how to harness the power of authentic self-promotion so you boost your voice, strengths, and contributions at work. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, doubt and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Follow Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this! Heather, I'm so excited that you're here.

How are you? Ah, and I am so excited to be here. And even though we're on opposite sides of the country, I feel like I'm sitting down with you. So thank you for inviting me. Into your space.

Oh, you are so welcome. I'm thrilled to have this conversation because, uh, between it being about being collaborative and having confidence, but I love the whole leadership X factor, uh, twist that you put on it. Uh, but before we get into all that, yes, tell us a little bit about yourself. You already mentioned you're on the other side of the country, so exactly where are you? What do you know? Who are— is Heather?

Sure, exactly. Thank you for asking. Yes, I'm in Pasadena, California, and I'm an executive coach, workshop facilitator, Speaker and first-time author. Yes. Yes.

Awesome.

Yes.

Yes. And we will talk about your book. And I have to ask because many of my listeners know about my weird passions of pickleball and puppies.

Okay. Yes.

Do you have any interesting hobbies or passions?

Well, you know, a hobby I have and I seem to get different, I guess, different ends of the spectrum reaction. One reaction is, oh, that is so scary, I would never do that. And the other reaction is, oh, I love doing that. And pretty much nothing in between. I take improv classes.

Yeah, I do too.

Okay.

Oh, we're gonna be fast friends.

Yes, I, I love improv. And a really quick story, I, when I was getting my doctorate degree at Pepperdine, I was had the summer free from school and I wanted to do something fun and I signed up at Second City and took an improv class and that was the launching pad for continuing taking classes at Second City and many other schools ever since.

So wow, well, I can't say that I've taken it at Second City, but that is so cool.

That is—

now if you really want to push yourself one, one step further and then we'll get into our conversation. Have you ever taken a comedy class, stand-up comedy class?

Now that scares me. That scares me. And musical improv. Those are the two that I'm on that end of the spectrum of, oh, that is, that is too much for me.

Yeah, well, I have no singing voice. I might have a speaking voice, but I have no singing voice, so that I couldn't do. Well, that is absolutely very, very, very cool. And, and I bet you I'm gonna have to see how I can tie it into the work that you do because you have to be able to use it within your work.

Absolutely.

You know, within turning people, you know, women specifically, to really hone in on their confidence and their self-worth and their power. So, um, where does the whole idea of, um, you and your work focusing on, um, the X Factor of leadership, where did that come from? What experience have you potentially been through to where that was a key area you wanted to pay attention to?

Sure, absolutely. So the idea behind Collaborative Confidence came from a couple of different angles. One was just intuition. Intuitively, I think women are relational. Not just intuitively, I think evidence also shows that. But we're relational. We want to be in relationship with other people. We want to be connected. We want to be collaborative with others. And then, another aspect of it is I work with a lot of women leaders. And I'll also frame this toward myself as well, that doubt their confidence. They're at the top of their game. They are leading teams. They are taking risks. They are making big decisions. They are managing huge budgets. They've elevated themselves up higher and higher. And yet, they doubt themselves and they lack confidence.

Right.

And I can say that about myself. There are many times where I don't feel as confident as I want. And I would work with women leaders, coach them, and inevitably, they would talk about not feeling so confident. And so, the idea of Collaborative Confidence came out of the wanting and the desire for all of us women to hold our confidence in a way that is authentic and secure and natural and, and very present, like everlasting in who we are. So I wanted to— I wanted women to know that you can be confident and you should be confident.

So what are they telling you? Um, what are those events, experiences, or encounters that they're coming across that's causing them to lack confidence when they have so much evidence to the contrary?

Exactly, exactly. So many different things. I can think of one coaching client, for example. She was the CFO of an organization. Half the organization reported under her. She reported right to the CEO. She was second in command. So when the CEO was gone, she was the one in charge. And in our coaching sessions, she would talk about, well, I don't know how to say this to so-and-so. I don't know how to communicate something to so-and-so. I have to have this tough conversation and I'm feeling uncertain about it. Or talking about dealing with the board in this case, in her case, and just the difficulties of navigating those relationships and not feeling so secure in how to navigate those. Another example is I facilitate some women's circles. And I was singing in one circle in particular. There's about 7 women in the group and every single one of them on this one evening talked about how they don't feel so confident. And some of the things they talked about involved risk-taking, involved being more visible themselves, and not feeling so confident about how also that might be received. If I take this risk and it doesn't work out, how might other people view me? Or then also blaming themselves probably too much as well if the risk doesn't turn out.

So are they having conversations about the fact that they had to have addressed those things as they were, were working their way up the ladder? So it's not— I mean, yes, it's, it's different, and it, you know, the degrees of a risk, for instance, might be that much bigger.

Sure.

But do they talk to themselves and with each other about the evidence that they have? And then, you know, what do you do to help kind of get them to kind of figure out the solution or the next step to take.

Yes. So there is all this evidence. You're absolutely right, Bernadette. There's all this evidence and yet at times lacking confidence. And I think even for the most experienced people, sometimes that evidence is not enough when you get that critical voice. That's a good point. All the evidence in the world can be piled up, but if you've got that critical voice in the back of your head saying, well, you're really not good enough, or you didn't say that the way you should have, or you should have thought this through before you did that, right? And that voice sometimes can overpower, unfortunately, all of the facts, all of the evidence, the, the track record, right?

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And then the idea behind collaborative confidence— this is getting into now how do women deal with it or how do they shore up their confidence. And it's for themselves and for other women. So, the definition of collaborative confidence is I am responsible for my own confidence and I'm responsible for helping other women with their confidence. So, there's this reciprocity. There's this mutual support. There's this knowing that you always have this ally, this cheerleader by your side and you're doing the same for her. Right.

And, and, and because— well, I shouldn't assume anything. The circles that you have, the 7 women in a circle, are they from the same organization or are they from different—

that they're from different organizations?

So when you even say, which I absolutely love, when you say that they have a responsibility to help other women, it's not only reaching down or up within your own organization to make sure the women feel supported and confident and are collaborative, but also outside of your bubble, kind of lift your head and work your way outside your bubble. Is that what you're also saying?

Exactly. Exactly. So whether it's one woman or multiple women, but practice collaborative confidence with other women. And I'll give you a quick example that was pretty inspirational in terms of the book. About the meaning of collaborative confidence. It comes out of the Obama White House. And in his first term, the women— his cabinet members were mostly men. And the women cabinet members and senior aides, they would be in meetings. And they had the same experience we've all had as women— talked over, talked on top of, interrupted, idea mentioned and idea stolen. They were experiencing those same things. So these women were so brilliant. They got together behind the scenes and they came up with something that they called amplification. Yes, exactly. So they decided that if a woman said something in a meeting, another woman would make sure to repeat it. Or if a woman had an idea, another woman would make sure to give credit back to that other woman for her idea. So they were amplifying each other.

So, and that was successful because they were in those same meetings. They were still, they were at the same table and, you know, as each other.

Yes, it was successful for that reason. And it was also successful because Obama noticed, and then he changed his own behaviors. He started calling on women himself. So as a leader, his behaviors changed, right?

Is that where your— uh, because a big foundation of the work that you do is around the 3 pillars of collaborative confidence.

Yes.

Uh, so is that where— because one of those 3— yes, is Amplify.

Yes.

Is that where it came from? And then walk us through so we can take advantage of it as well.

Sure. So yes, there are 3 pillars to Collaborative Confidence, and the second pillar, Amplify, it absolutely— the inspiration was the Obama story. I give them credit and thank them for that inspiration. The first pillar is Activate, then Amplify, and then Accelerate. And the Activate pillar of Collaborative Confidence is that introspective. It's starting with the self. Because it focuses in on self-awareness, your core values, your strengths, and that pesky inner critic that we talked about in Quieting the Critic and Waking Up the Champion.

Right.

So the Activate pillar is about activating yourself. Then the Amplify pillar is the outward-facing pillar. It's the amplifying other women. It's speaking up on behalf of other women. It's about executive presence. It's about seizing opportunities, that maybe you would have shied away from previously, but taking opportunities and also, again, championing other women and advocating for other women.

But the executive presence piece of amplification is not only the outward to helping other women, but also to make sure that you are putting yourself out there. Would that be fair to say?

You are spot on. Absolutely. Absolutely. So executive presence is about amplifying your executive presence. Absolutely. Yeah.

And where— what, what do you think is the biggest challenge for women when it comes to amplifying their executive presence?

The biggest challenge, which again, I can relate to— I mean, this book, I'm holding the mirror up to myself with every sentence I wrote. The biggest challenge is around self-promotion.

Self-promotion.

Yeah, self-promotion. I think women really struggle with self-promotion mostly, you know. I'm sure there are many women, many women out there who don't, but I think by and large it is, right?

Oh, I do too. Yeah, that would make sense. And to help our listeners and viewers understand what you mean by self-promotion, because some will be sitting there going, oh my gosh, it's so arrogant and it's so, you know, PR and in your face. And, you know, what exactly are you suggesting around self-promotion for amplifying one's executive presence.

Yeah. And I have to add on to what you're saying because you are right on target, Bernadette, that the notion of self-promotion can almost make your stomach turn sometimes because it can feel so icky and grandiose and braggadocious. And that's one of the reasons I think why women struggle with it because it can seem like such a turnoff. What I strive to help women to see is to reframe that. That self-promotion can be reframed into clearly communicating your strengths, your values. Self-promotion can be reframed into using your physical presence, sitting at the conference room table instead of sitting around the perimeter of the room. It's so true. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's so true. And also you said, you know, their value, but also it's other contributions of their, you know, of the results that they're getting. Do you also make sure that they're also, you know, ensuring that people know, you know, their worth and what they've been bringing to the table, even metrically, like tactically?

Sure, absolutely. And numbers speak Volumes. Absolutely. So yes, the contributions, women need to articulate them because people don't always connect the dots. And I think often as women, again, I'm speaking to myself here, I can have my head down working hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. And other people aren't necessarily going to notice how hard I'm working, right? Unless I raise my head up and say or do something that brings attention. In an authentic, non-arrogant kind of way. So here's a quick example of how I help women do this.

Perfect.

Women, and this is, I think, is a great quality of us as women. I think we tend to be very thankful toward others and acknowledge their contributions, acknowledge their efforts, especially when it's our team. And so women will often give so much credit to the team and not give any credit to themselves. So they'll say things like, "Oh, the project was a success because my team was wonderful. The credit all goes to them." And it's a wonderful thing to say, but where are they in that equation? They're invisible, right?

Yep.

And so it's finding the balance of acknowledging the other and including your contribution. So an alternative to that could be, "The project was a success because I have a great team and I'm so proud to lead my team." Nice, very nice, very nice.

Isn't there, um, is there also— do you, you have them take ownership? I know for myself where I fall down in this regard is someone will compliment, oh yeah, the work that I'm doing, and I'll just deflect it to other people when all I really need to do is what?

Say thank you. Hey, yeah, two words.

Yeah.

And if that's uncomfortable, if that seems a little too curt, you can say, thank you, I appreciate you noticing, or thank you, that makes me feel really good.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Good, you know. Um, yes, I just absolutely love that. All right, so, but I want to go back to activate Yes, because I think our listeners would love to understand from you how they can tap into kind of who they are to really activate that self-awareness.

Sure.

So what would you recommend that they, that they can, you know, can start doing today when it comes to really being able to activate their collaborative leadership?

Sure, yes. And their self-awareness. So yeah, a few different things. One is that they can pay attention to words that are used to describe them, words other people use. So in meetings, you can start to jot down on a piece of paper, your tablet. People say, oh, you're so analytical, or you're very creative. Start to jot down the words that people use to describe you. Look back on your performance evaluations or 360s and start to collect that data of how you're described by others. And then if you're described in ways that you— how you see yourself and how you want to be seen, great. You are on a wonderful track and keep it up. If you're not described in the ways that you want to be seen or how you see yourself, then start to shift your behaviors and even change your language. And here's something real quick that I— a quick story that I did years ago. When I was getting my doctorate degree, literally, Bernadette, you're probably going to think I'm exaggerating, but my life was work, school, gym, work, school, gym, work, school, gym.

Right?

Very, very, very, very boring. And I went through a 360 of sorts, and I got this collection of words. And all of the words, they were fine words, but they were like responsible, dependable, words like that. And I like to see myself as creative, maybe not like an artist, but I'm creative with my workshops. I'm creative with how I work with clients. There was no word even close to creative on this list, which was understandable given how I was coming across.

Right.

I changed my language, and every once in a while I would sprinkle in the word creative when I would talk with my boss or with others. I would say things like, well, let's take a creative approach. Or might— what might be a creative solution to this? And you know what, a couple weeks later I was having a one-on-one with my boss and he said, you know, Heather, you're such a creative person.

It's almost like subliminal marketing when you go into a— you know, they used to say in the— they used to put words up that you couldn't see. Yeah, on the screen, but then your, your mind catches it. That's awesome. I love that.

And I would say just sprinkle it in like salt. You don't want to use those words all the time, but just sprinkle it in as salt. And then, of course, another way to enhance your self-awareness is to ask— excuse me— ask someone directly— excuse me— ask someone directly about who you are, your performance, or some aspect of yourself. And of course, go in with a willing heart and a willing mind to just receive that. And then decide what you choose to do with that information that you've gotten from others.

So let me, uh, touch on that because, uh, and many of our listeners have heard the story, but I did exactly that when I left corporate and was going out on my own. I got my 5 sisters, my mother, a little bit drunk, and I said, I want you to give me one word to describe me.

Yes, yes.

You know, and, and I, I love what you said about be in, you know, walk into it with an open mind, an open heart, uh, knowing that they're doing it for, for, you know, for good, not doing it to hurt you or whatnot, right? Um, because trust me when I say my sisters took full advantage of the, uh, of the, uh, liberal, you know, liberal— well, that's not the word I was looking for, but for the, uh, the opportunity to share, and they did. I love that. So ask.

Yeah, just ask. And you can ask, you know, certain people. You don't have to ask 100 people. You could go to 3 or 4 people that you have a good enough relationship with that they will be honest with you and that they will deliver the message hopefully in a way that is, you know, in a supportive, helpful way.

I love that. I love that. Now, one, one aspect of confidence is especially as you're talking about collaborative, um, uh, leadership and confidence, is one's voice.

Yes.

So what do you— and I, and I know by looking at your, uh, the work that you've done, the book, which we'll talk about— but what do you, you know, help and coach your clients to think about and consider when it comes to their voice?

Short sounds confident, and I don't mean short in stature, I mean being succinct. So if, if a way a woman wants to exude confidence through her voice is to be succinct, there we go.

Very nice, Heather. That will never happen with me. In writing it is. In writing I can be very short and sweet, and I'm still working on, you know, being succinct in my verbs or in my verbiage. So, and is that the key when it comes to the voice?

That is just one. No, I certainly wouldn't say that's the key. I will say, looking at my own journey of how I have communicated over time, I can see how I learned from other people. I looked to other leaders and other people and paid attention to how they, especially in meetings or negotiations or tough conversations, I noticed how they positioned information, how they responded to the question, and then how they gave recommendations going forward. So I noticed those things. And I also noticed that they tend to— people would tend to speak in shorter, still full information, right? But without all the extra window dressing that didn't add to the part of the conversation itself. But some other things, some I will tell women—

before you move on from there, before you move on there, how would you help them with that? Because I'm visualizing in writing, it's easy. It is verbally. It's you know, it can be challenging. So how would you go about helping someone who might be sitting there going, oh God, like me? I'm like, yeah, yeah, that, you know, how, like, what is that about?

Sure, sure. And I also want to add in, at the same time, I want women and people to be authentic, right? So even though I may be helping them be more succinct with their language, with their voice, I still authenticity is still more important to me. So if being succinct is just not authentic, it's not authentic. And find a different way to use your voice. So a few ideas come to mind. One is an acronym called WAIT, W-A-I-T, and it stands for Why Am I Talking? So you can jot down the word WAIT on the top of your tablet or your pad of paper, or think about WAIT before you go into a meeting. And then it can be that just that reminder to you that is this something that needs to be said? And does it need to be said right now? And is this something that I need to say? Has it already been said in the room 5 times? And do I need to be the 6th one? So why am I talking?

That's awesome. That needs to be a book. Seriously. And I'm sitting here thinking, I could write that book, and— but then I'm not going to steal your idea. You need to write that book. That needs to be a follow-up to your, your, to your, you know, your new and your first book, which I want to get to. But at the same time, that is awesome. That is so powerful right there.

Wait. Yes. And I, I will— I, being authentic, I do want to say I, I learned it somewhere along the road, so it's I will say that Heather did not invent that, but it is a tool that I have used with clients before.

Oh, good. I'm glad you mentioned that.

Okay.

So I love these tips because they're so useful, like right now. And that's what I love to bring to our listeners and viewers. So we've talked about self-awareness. We've talked about using their voice. Kind of even when and how to do it.

Wait.

So what do you mean on your third pillar when you say accelerate?

Yes. So again, the first pillar, activate, is self, inward and introspective. The second pillar, amplification, is more outward. The third pillar, accelerate, is the big picture because it's about the organizations. And it brings up that organizations are also responsible for elevating women's leadership. It's not just the women's responsibility, but the system also needs to be a part of creating environments where women and really everyone can truly thrive. So that part of the book talks about different topics such as sponsorships and equal pay and addressing burnout. Flexible work environments, those kinds of things. It's the organization's hand in the game, if you will.

Do a lot of people roll their eyes? Do a lot of women roll their eyes when they hear that around the organization because they've been trying to get the organization to pay attention to them and to put a focus on them and to elevate them? And yet it doesn't happen. And if so, you know, what do you say to and work with the organization around that? But also, what do you tell the women they are responsible for?

Yeah, I mean, it's a tough one. You are absolutely right. It is a tough one because organizations, companies, they are big systems, right? And trying to change big systems, it's it's not easy and it can't just be done by one or two people. Fortunately, there are other associations, organizations out there who do look at companies that are doing things like providing sponsorships to companies or research around— getting back to your point about data earlier— research around when you have more women in leadership positions, how it generally positively affects profits and stock prices. And when there are more women on boards, it enhances R&D and innovation. So I think often organizations need to— what they pay attention to, I should say, are those numbers that you had mentioned earlier. They pay attention to, is it affecting our profits? Is it giving us greater strategy and innovation in the services or the programs that we offer to our organizations. So I think it's, it's often about that research or that data that is already out there that can be leveraged and organizations can be reminded about the positive impact that a more diverse workforce and especially the leadership levels and diversity with gender really has a positive impact with with organizations.

Right. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And yes, I think it's, it's extremely valuable. Now, but answer this. So to the second part of that though, what do women have to ensure they're doing when the organization is struggling to figure it out?

Sure. So I think one thing is that women need to ask to be sponsored, that there's a lot of mentorship up out there, which is great. But research really shows that when you, when you have a sponsor, when you have a person, a leader who has influence in the organization, who is speaking your name and advocating for you and giving you stretch assignments, it then helps elevate your career. You end up making more money. You end up being happier with your promotions. And you end up also having greater and more interesting work assignments because of that sponsor. Women need to ask for sponsors within their organizations. They need to look around who is that influential person, whether it's my direct boss or whether it's somebody else in the organization. Create a relationship with them and approach them and say, probably more eloquently than I'm going to say right here, but would you be my sponsor? Here's how I am contributing to the organization. Here's how, where I would like to go. Here's why I admire you. Would you be a person who would be willing to speak on my behalf, to be my sponsor, to raise my visibility? That's one thing that a woman can do to move up and to create that corporate change.

And to set expectations. How long would you say typically it takes to build a relationship with someone where then it's appropriate to then ask, you know, to— for them to be their sponsor?

That is such an interesting question. How long? That is so interesting. And I'm probably going to sound like a lawyer here— it depends.

Actually, you sound like a consultant.

Yes, I sound like a consultant, you know. I don't think it's something that you can expect to happen in the first week or two or first few months. You know, I do think relationship building is something that happens over time and you cultivate it.

So several months, you know, but it's not the first time is what I wanted to make sure. It's not the first interaction you have with someone and you're like, hey, will you sponsor me?

Oh yeah, no, exactly. Right, exactly. It's after you've built that relationship. And again, it's somebody that you've seen in action enough that you admire, that you go to that person, you say, this is why I'm talking to you versus the other 100 people that I could have spoken to. You have those qualities that I admire, that I am emulating, that I want to continue to emulate. And how can we might enter a sponsorship relationship?

That's awesome. And what do you really want your reader of your first book, Collaborative Confidence, what do you want them to walk away with?

I want them to walk away knowing that they can today, right now, they can put collaborative confidence to work. At their next meeting, they can pay attention to the other women in the room and they can repeat what another woman said. That's a simple way, immediate way to practice collaborative confidence. So they can choose to sit at the conference room table instead of around the perimeter of the room. They can choose to say something more succinctly. So what I want them to know is collaborative confidence can be practiced today. They don't have to wait.

Yeah. Oh my God. That's so awesome. I do want to touch on one thing because it kept coming up coming up for me is, you know, um, women can get very, very competitive and very, very insecure about their own self. To, to then they're like, why am I going to help someone else, you know, get promoted? And why am I going to praise them and give them the credit?

Yes.

What do you say to those women?

So what I say to that notion is I want to be part of changing that narrative. I want to be part of changing the narrative from competition to abundance. That the more I succeed, the more you succeed. The more I help others, the more I am helped by others. There's something called the Shine Theory, which came from a couple of podcasters. And Shine Theory means that when I, if I'm remembering correctly, when I succeed, you succeed. And it's like the Shine Theory. It's like we do this together versus apart and competitive with each other. I would like to put to bed and put to rest that— I think it's a stereotype to a certain degree about women competing with each other. What I want to awaken up within women and society is that women come from a place of abundance and generosity.

Love it, love it. Love it. Oh, Heather, this has been so good. I can't believe it. Oh, thank you. We could talk forever, and we'll probably do this again because, um, yes, because there's just so much we can unpack in regards to your 3 pillars of collaborative confidence: activate, amplify, and accelerate. Ladies, that's right. Amplify and accelerate. You can make it a mantra. Activate, amplify, accelerate.

That's right. I love it.

Yeah. Anyway, this has been fabulous. Thank you so much for your time. And for everyone, especially those listening, please go and check out her book. It's right on Amazon, Collaborative Confidence. And you can also go to tiny.cc/collaborativeconfidence. Also check her out as a whole in regards to how she can help you and your organization at heatherbackstrom.com. Heather, thank you so much, and I'll look forward to meeting up with you again.

I look forward to it as well. Thank you so much, Bernadette.

Thanks.

Wow.

Talk about collaborative confidence. Heather was oozing it as she shared her tips and strategies for becoming a distinctive leader. What were your takeaways? I'd love to hear from them. So you feel free to drop them in the comment section. But here are mine. And, you know, in case you missed anything, maybe what I picked up, you can now take away and leverage for yourself. So she did talk about her 3 pillars of collaborative confidence: activate, amplify, and accelerate. And she broke down each one of them with some really powerful tips for what you could do right now to take a seat at that table with confidence, um, elevate your voice and, you know, authentically self-promote yourself with confidence. Then she went on to say, okay, now it's time to Amplify. Activate is internal. Amplify is now helping others to really gain that confidence through collaboration as well. And then lastly, accelerate. Open it up, you know, to the whole organization and what can the organization do for you. This was all grounded in her tips and strategies around self-awareness that you have to become self-aware of the words you use, the behaviors, your actions, how other people perceive you. And once you can start doing that and you are doing it as you go from Activate even into Amplify, you find yourself elevating that collaborative confidence. And lastly, I love the idea of— a big tip that she gave was when there's multiple women at the same table, And oftentimes women will complain that other, you know, especially men, are talking over them. They're taking their, you know, credit for their, their comments and suggestions. And yet if you can kind of partner with other women and be collaborative around how all of you want to be supported, you can in that same meeting amplify, repeat, and confirm what the other woman was promoting or suggesting. Or raising up as an issue, and you can kind of amplify it by repeating it and confirming it. And that way, you know, there's a lesser chance of anyone else coming in, swooping the idea, or taking credit for it, or speaking over it. Love that. I wish I had that when I was in corporate. Um, but what did you take away, and what did you think of that conversation? I'd love to hear from you. And I am appreciative that you were part of the conversation as well, and I'll look forward to having you join us for the next conversation of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Take care, everyone. Have a great week.