How to Ignite Action into Your Leadership Style with Laura Darrell

Let's talk about igniting action into your leadership style by getting you off the sidelines and into the game. Because according to our guest Laurel Darrell of Laurel Darrell Leadership, leadership is an action, not a position. And she wants you to clearly understand why you have to be willing to get into the trenches with your team and lead from there. Also, how bold actions drive impact. For you and your career, the real reasons you're not advancing and what you can do about it. And lastly, how proximity bias is influencing the decisions others are making about you and your promotability. Stay with us as this is going to be powerful. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders. By showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Laura, how are you? Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so excited to talk with you.

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much.

How are you on this beautiful day?

Fantastic. Could not be better.

Awesome. Well, before we get into this kind of mesmerizing and powerful conversation around promotability or the lack thereof, and really your whole concept around that leadership is an action, not a position. Before we get there, tell us a little bit about you.

Oh my gosh. Okay. So a little bit about me. I am an avid dog lover, specifically like rescue dog lover. So had dogs kind of growing up my whole life. Sadly, we lost two of our dogs this year to old age, but we just rescued a beautiful little angel. Her name is— I call her Anna Banana. We just rescued her 2 weeks ago and she is just the cutest little scruffiest little thing, so that just makes my heart—

oh, absolutely.

Yeah, that and, uh, great tacos here in Mexico City. So those are my 2 jams.

I'm surprised your puppy's not named Taco.

Had I changed her name, that would have been a top contender.

That's awesome because everyone in our our community knows how kind of, uh, fanatic I am about dogs and puppies. Uh, so, uh, yeah, so that's awesome.

That warms my heart.

Warms my heart. Well, um, well, let's get into this subject because I think it's, uh, you take a very unique angle on promotability and that there's a gap that, you know, some need to recognize between, you know, what they're working so hard to achieve, but what they're struggling with. But first, before we go there, I want to ask, you have this whole concept around leadership is an action, not a position. And I love that. And I think it lends itself to the fact that others don't recognize that, which could be causing them not being promoted.

Yeah.

So help us understand what your take is on that.

Yeah, I think that oftentimes, you know, we work so hard in our careers, we like exhibit these phenomenal strengths and skill sets in like the area that we're working in. And that leads us to maybe get noticed by the, you know, the executives or the seniors in the organization. And then we get promoted into these people leadership roles and I've just found throughout my career that the skills that make you successful to get promoted are really different than the skills that you're going to need as a leader. So, I just often think that, gosh, you know, you get the title. That doesn't mean you're leading people. Leadership is actually something like, you gotta get off the sidelines and like into the business to actually lead your people. From the trenches. You've got to be shoulder to shoulder with them to be a great coach, to be a great mentor, all those things that are going to help other people be successful in advancing their career. So, I think it's part that it's just a different skill set that you need when you get promoted into that first people leadership gig. And then, I think the other thing that we just have to kind of fess up to is that organizations don't do a great job of investing in people's leadership skills. It's like, hey, congrats, you're the best salesperson in the organization. Now you're going to lead a sales team and like, good luck, over to you. And there's no like formal leadership training that helps people understand what those actions are you need to take as a leader to continue to evolve your career. And I think that's one of the biggest promotability gaps that I've seen is that You're an excellent salesperson. You get promoted into that like regional team lead role, kind of middle of the organization. But nobody invests in the leadership skills and actions required to be a great leader to help you advance past that role in the organization. So yeah, I mean, gosh, I could talk about that all day.

Well, we're going to, at least for the time that we have. So let's kind of rip that apart a little bit. So the actions— and I love what you said about the fact that, you know, the skill set that you have, you know, kind of going up the ladder isn't the same that you need, you know, for different rungs of that ladder. And therefore, what are some of those actions that are different between, you know, where they might be and where they're going? Um, to where if they got a handle on that earlier in their career, they will have, you know, been developing, developing, developing, and not necessarily have a gap, you know, when they get there. Is there anything that they could be doing now?

Oh gosh, yeah, that's a great question. I think that, um, a lot of it stems from Communication and coaching. Well, like communication, coaching, and clarity. So how are you as a new leader understanding communication from the lens of like, look, if I'm in kind of a middle spot in the organization and I'm managing, you know, a team beneath me, but then I've got the team that's above me, it's two different communication styles, like how you would communicate up in an organization. So How do you kind of report back some of the challenges, you know, the field might be facing, some of the things that the teams are working on? How do you communicate that in an executive way? 'Cause you're often talking to folks higher up in the organization. And then how do you take the things that are happening above you and translate that into meaningful information and action for the team below you? And I think that's one of the biggest gaps that I see is knowing those two communication styles. How do you communicate up and then how do you communicate back down? I think that's one big area where if you're really going to double down on leadership development, your own leadership development, that's certainly a worthwhile area to explore. And then, yeah, we could talk about coaching and clarity. I think those kind of— they all go together. Right, right.

So when you say leadership is an action, not a position, Are you suggesting that the action would then be for them to, even if it's kind of self-guided, to get that training, to work on their communication, to kind of have that mentor, have that coach, have that even peer who, or, or someone that is not necessarily in a mentor role, you know, in a higher-level position, helping them understand the difference between where they are and where they need to go? Earlier.

100%. I think the leadership action is absolutely that sometimes you have to recognize like if you're in an organization that isn't kind of spoon-feeding you leadership development or courses or sessions that you can go to. I mean, you have a choice. You can either, you know, well, it is what it is. If they're not teaching me those things, then that's not part of my job or my function. But I think we know that the best leaders in the world they continually invest in their learning and development. It's not a one and done. It's all throughout my career I'm going to invest in those leadership skills. So I think that's the first action. If you're really serious about advancing your career, the first action to take is really to continue to invest in your own leadership development. And whether that's getting a coach, getting a mentor, I mean, gosh, there's, you know, a million books you can read, courses you can take online, Even just things like being aware of the fact that, yeah, I want to really invest in my communication skills, for example. So do you observe the executives in your organization and how do they communicate? What types of things do they do from a presentation format? I mean, there are a million different ways to kind of skin the development, development cat, so to speak. But that's the first action is that you have to do something like you've got to go out and own your own career trajectory and not wait for somebody to spoon-feed the development to you or pave that way for you. You got to have that drive or that action to really own that trajectory.

Do you find that— I call them so-so managers when they're not really leading. And in your sphere, leading with action, do you find that they lean on the excuse that they're not— their company is not giving them the leadership training, and therefore, woe is me. And yet, why am I not getting, you know, promoted? And why am I kind of sitting in the same place? And if so, then what do you do to smack them upside the head? Yeah, kind of, you kind of move them into action. What would you do?

100%. If I could like ring a bell, I'd be like, like that. Well, that's one of the— I write about that in The Promotability Gap. That is one of the biggest reasons that people fail to advance in their careers is that they have these kind of so-so managers and won't even give them the title of leader. And because they haven't had their own kind of leadership training or they haven't taken the bull by the horns to kind of figure that out themselves and take that action, people's careers beneath them suffer immensely because they're not great coaches. They're not great listeners. They're not great communicators. They don't provide a ton of clarity on, you know, these are my expectations of you and this is how I'm going to help you get there. And that's a huge career block for people. But I don't want people to be, you know, throw their hands up in the air and say, well, because I have a so-so manager, you know, now my career is going to be hindered. Because you can take that action yourself to, you know, to ask for feedback from peers and from others in the organization and then to just invest on your own. Like, how am I going to close those gaps? How can I invest in my own development as a leader? But it's one of the biggest challenges that folks face in their career is having a manager that just, they just, I don't know if it's they just don't care. They just don't have the tools. Maybe they're not equipped with that skill set so they feel a bit insecure in trying to develop that skill set in others. But it's a huge challenge for organizations because they're not building bench of great talent. And it's a huge block for people in their careers because they don't have a leader or a manager that's advocating for them because they're not investing in their team's development. And it can really, it can really be a derailer.

Yeah, well, you said two things there. One is, is also one of those leadership actions to close that gap of being promotable is also to— you said they could go and, you know, ask people. They can do basically a self-assessment or initiate their own, you know, 360 assessment. Is that one of those leadership actions that you kind of espouse to your clients to think forward and proactively around that?

100%. And, you know, I just believe that it's within all of us. It's about the action we're willing to take. It's about our own internal the intrinsic motivators and why we want to do the things that we do. But it's absolutely within us to go out and do your own 360 performance review and talk to 3 or 4 individuals in the organization that you work with to get some— I like kind of 2 streams of feedback. The first one being like, what is it that I do as a leader or as a member of this team that makes you really love working with me that I could maybe be doing more of in my practice as 'X, Y, and Z.' And then I love the question like, 'Look, is there anything that I could add to my practice as a— insert job title here— that's going to make me even more effective or even more impactful in my role?' Then you take that feedback. If you talk to 3 or 4 individuals, you ask those same 2 questions, you can very quickly start to pull the themes out of the conversations, which can help guide you in your own The creating of your own development plan. You don't, you don't need someone to do that for you. You can absolutely do that yourself.

Yes, and absolutely should. That career development plan, you know, that is something that if someone is really, really determined and ambitious to want to advance and be a better leader, then it's a career plan that you recommend that they put together for themselves. They don't have to have other people initiate.

No, 100%. And I think it's so interesting, this moment we're in right now where a lot of organizations are kind of mandating the return back to work. A lot of people are finding themselves in a fully remote world and leading maybe a bit of a hybrid team. And there's this interesting pattern emerging around proximity bias. So, those folks that are kind of closer to the office so they can go into the regional office or the head office and network and spend time face-to-face with their leader and with other leaders in the organization. There's a real bias that can come into play there about your career trajectory. Whereas if you live in a location where you don't have a regional office and it's not an option for you to just pop by a couple times a week to network and build those relationships. Man, you, you need to take that into your own hands. And I love the way you call it, like, just that career planning. Like, you need to have a plan for that. How are you going to network within the organization if you can't go in to the office? How are you going to, you know, book those little virtual coffee connects with folks in the company so that you— I call it stay sticky, stay, stay top of mind so that folks know kind of who you are and what you're working on. And that again, I think sometimes we throw our hands up and we say, well, I don't live close to the office and I don't get to travel in there, so that's outside of my control. No, I don't believe that to be true. I think it's within all of us. If you have the drive and the determination, there are little workarounds to close a lot of those gaps that kind of hold our careers back.

So based on that, is there a question that someone should be asking themselves that when they recognize that they're not getting promoted, they're not getting advanced, they're being looked over on a regular basis, do they need to kind of look at themselves and actually question their true, uh, priority to be advanced, or their pure, uh, their, uh, real desire to be advanced. Because if, like you said, if we want something, we'll move mountains together.

That's right. It's a mindset. Like, it really truly is a mindset. So yeah, I think that if you keep getting passed over for advancement in your organization, I think you need to understand two things, um, and the first being that question about your mindset. Am I really driving for this? Am I really doing Am I doing everything within my circle of control, everything that I can influence in my day-to-day? Am I doing everything to move that mountain, to move my career forward? If you answer yes to that question, then I think it's worth a look at, you know, what's happening within your organization, because sometimes there are organizations where you're not promoted maybe so much on your skill set and your ability as you are based on your relationships. You're— I call it like the dark reasons that folks don't get promoted because like you're— maybe you're so fantastic at what you do that you're deemed to be too valuable in the position that you're in. And then you're kind of hemmed into that little corner of the organization. Potentially, you have a manager now that is a little bit threatened by you and the skill set you have and the work you do and the way folks think about you in the organization. They could be intentionally holding you back in your career. Or it could be like it's just a boys club, or it's just a golfing club, or it's the folks that have these kind of certain interests and beliefs, and they tend to promote folks that perpetuate that little club. So, I think you've got to understand, are one of those reasons potentially impacting? If you're doing everything you can are one of those other reasons at play in the organization. And then, you've got to act accordingly from there. So yeah, but I always think that it's the first reflective question is, am I driving for this? Am I doing everything I can to build my career, to advance my career? Because sometimes, we have that sense of, well, I'm the best. 'You know, I'm the best salesperson in my job so I deserve to be.' Okay, but if there's like 10 other amazing salespeople in the organization, what are you doing to differentiate yourself, to kind of cut above the herd, to get noticed, to give yourself a bit of an edge?

Yeah. And who should they be talking to? Because a lot of times, there's a knee-jerk reaction like, 'I'm gonna go talk to HR.' You know, and do you find that?

Yes, 100%.

And, you know, therefore, how should they go about navigating that to get the answers versus sitting there thinking, oh, well, I'm doing everything that I can, it's everybody else's fault? You know, who could they be engaging to get that real information beyond the self-assessment, you know, to get that real information about the culture, about the decision-making process?

Yeah, I think first and foremost, you have to speak to your leader, to your direct manager, and just not be afraid of having that difficult or honest conversation. I think sometimes fear is our greatest enemy and we don't want to rock the boat. And I don't want to disrupt things. But I think that's the first place to go is just help me understand. I've applied for this internal role. I wasn't successful. Looking for some feedback as to why, so that I can work on my own development between now and when that next opportunity comes available. Exactly. To give myself the best chance to be successful that next time around. So I think that we can't assume that internal hiring or internal promotion practices in the organization cover all those bases for you. In a best-case scenario or in career utopia, Yes, you apply internally. You're not successful. Somebody sits down with you and they break down, you know, here's the top 3 reasons why, Laura. Here's how we're going to help you close those gaps. Here's some of the things that you can do. I mean, let's be real. That does not happen in most organizations. So, I think that's the first step is that you've gotta, you know, I call it you gotta put the big girl panties on and you gotta sit down and have that conversation and ask for that feedback. So that you have an opportunity to close those gaps. So I would say self-reflection first, meet with your leader second. And then the other great opportunity for feedback is to connect with a peer that you really trust in the organization, someone that knows you, someone that has worked with you, kind of observed you in your working environment, that can maybe give some feedback on your soft skills, your relationship skills. Like, hey, like, how am I doing being a part of this team? Because I think, you know, oftentimes folks get promoted because their team elevates them. They naturally gravitate to them for, I'm having this challenge and, you know, I know Laura went through something like that, so I'm going to reach out to her. I'm going to talk to her. And when you start to get that peer-to-peer feedback, coaching, development happening. Folks notice that. So I think going to one or two of your peers that you trust and just saying, hey, how am I doing? Am I a good teammate? Like, am I someone you enjoy working with? You know, do I contribute value to the team? You know, do I contribute value to you and those that we work with? Because you're going to get some really interesting feedback through that process. And I believe in I call it that multi-method evaluation. So, don't just rely on yourself to reflect and evaluate the problem because man, we are littered with our own personal bias. And that's okay. That's human nature. You're not going to solve for that. It's an important part of your reflection process, but just a part. So, you have your reflection. Go to your leader. Get their feedback. Go to a couple of peers. Get some feedback from them. And if you're really serious about that full 360 approach, talk to some family and friends because I find that some of our biggest development opportunities that we carry with us in our professional life also spill over into our personal life. And I think when you make that effort, when you take that action to get that feedback, you're going to have a really good perspective on you know, how you contribute to the team, what it's like to work with you. You're going to get some really meaty developmental subjects that you can build a really good plan around. But yeah, it starts with like, it's like, that's your action. You need to take charge of that.

Yes. Yes, you need to take charge. I love that. And so what are some— because you talk about bold actions as opposed to just actions. What are some of those bold actions that managers could be taking to really recognize and to get recognized for what they're capable of doing in future jobs?

Sure, it's a great question. I think two things are really important when you talk about upward mobility in an organization. And I think the first thing that the best leaders do is they get in the trenches with their team. They work alongside them to understand, you know, how are some of the other programs and systems and tools that the organization is building and producing, how are they performing for your team? Let's see them in action so that we can again collaborate. We can kind of cross-pollinate feedback from your team throughout the organization. You can connect the folks that are more senior to you in the organization to what's happening below you, life in the trenches. I find that the higher you go up the corporate ladder, you tend to suffer from, you know, the technical term is the CEO disease. The farther away you get from the front lines of the organization, the more impaired your decision-making gets, your strategic thinking gets. So, I think that the best thing that a leader can do is get really plugged into the work your team does every single day and feed that back up to the layers above you in the organization. Because I think everybody is really starving to get a little bit closer to how the work is being delivered on the front line. So, that's the first thing. Get in the trenches. You cannot be a leader behind, you know, in your office, behind your computer. You can't coach. You can't give meaningful feedback. So that is kind of bold action number one. Just get out of the office and into the trenches, whatever that looks like. Right. Second bold action that I think can be so powerful when you're thinking about kind of your upward career mobility is to have a really good think about I call it the A+ problem. Like, what is the A+ problem in your organization? What is the biggest thing that the company needs to solve for? And it might not be in your wheelhouse. It might not be something that you and your team do every single day. But man, I think the folks that are real serious about driving that career forward, they think about those things. They think about the biggest problem that the organization is facing. And they put some thoughts down to that and they start little conversations just off the side of their desk like, 'Hey, let's take 30 minutes. Let's talk about that. This is how I think we could impact that. This team here might be able to impact it this way.' But they start the conversation. They start thinking about the scope outside of their day-to-day because that's really what upward career mobility is. Your problems expand. The work that you contribute to is less about one small pocket of the business. But the best executives that I've worked with, they don't just think about their functional departmental hat. They think about the biggest challenges that the organization is facing. And they work collectively to hammer that out. All right.

But especially if there are managers, I'll call them, you know, in the middle sector, you know, the level versus, you know, up at the C-level or even VP level. And what do you say to somebody or what do you help them with when they feel like, oh, I'm going to step on someone's toes or that's not my place. And I'm, you know, and they're going to be like questioning me, why am I kind of intruding on their space? You know, how do you help someone recognize that that is not one, you know, maybe that they don't need to be worried about that. They just need to be kind of helping the business, you know, solve this problem.

Sure.

Do you find that from managers?

I think that it's, it's a bit of a, a bit of a process. And I would probably say that if you haven't done anything in your organization to kind of reach outside of your own day-to-day contacts or the folks that you would work with day in and day out, the first place for you to probably start before you start reaching out to like, 'Hey, let's talk about this big problem,' or 'Let's talk about how my team might be able to help your team accomplish X.' The first thing you've got to do is you have to like cut the path to those relationships. You have to start reaching out to folks and just say, 'Hey, like I'm over here. I'm not in an office,' or 'We're all virtual now so we don't get to bump into each other at the water cooler.' 'Let's block 30 minutes at 8:30 Monday morning,' or whatever day, 'and just have a virtual coffee.' And just start to build the little pathways out of your own department in your own role. Start to build some relationships in different departments. Once you start to build those relationships, it becomes so much easier to say, 'Oh yeah, like I've been thinking about X, Y, and Z. Like, what do you think about that?' All of those conversations become infininitely easier and less— what's a good word— less spotlighted. If you're already known for reaching across departments to build relationships because you're a great networker and you want to build this great social fabric within the company, those things tend to have less of a light kind of spotlighted on them if you just do those things all the time. So I would say it's like a two-step. If you're not doing that in your organization, if you are not reaching across departments to build relationships, to connect with others. That's the first place to start. And if you are doing that, man, just start to ask questions about like, what's that A+ problem? What are we, what are we trying to solve for here? Because I do think that the best executives in the world, they understand that solutions to problems can come from anywhere in the organization. And I think that they would encourage that within their company, that they would encourage people to talk about the A+ problem and what it is we might be able to do from our own roles and with our own teams to slightly chip away at that.

Yeah, I love that. I love, love, love that. And I would— I'm reading into also that one of those, I'll call them minor actions versus the bold action. Would be to practice one's networking ability, since some, some aren't very good at it, or some aren't accustomed to doing it. Yes, but that could be also one of those things that gets built in early from a developmental career pathing perspective, right?

Yeah, and so vital, like just so incredibly vital. If you don't have exposure in your organization, like if you don't have a leader that's paving the way for you and they're shining a bright light on you when they're talking to the higher-ups and they're kind of building this, you know, Laura's the next person for this role. If you don't have that, it's on you to start building those relationships and reaching out to connect with others for the virtual coffee or to actually meet up in the office and have a cup of coffee. If you don't start doing that, then nope, Nobody outside of you, especially in this world of remote work. If you don't do it, if you don't have that skill set now, you run the risk of like everybody in the organization outside of your team or department may have no idea who you are. And I think it's just such a valuable, valuable place to start because if you're depending on your manager to shine a light on you and kind of build that following, build that advocacy that, oh yeah, of course she should be the next person to take that role. If you're waiting on them to do that, you're— yes, you're going to be disappointed more than you're going to be— than you're going to be pleased, because it's just not, uh, yeah, it's just not super commonplace.

Yeah, they're not going to come tapping you on the shoulder if you're not kind of putting yourself out there. Do you have— because this has been fabulous— do you have one kind of new, like different tip that someone could be acting on right now as they leave this conversation that would help them, you know, kind of close that promotability gap?

Yeah, I think that the biggest takeaway that I would give right now is that if you don't know what proximity bias is and you work in an organization that is hybrid or all virtual, If you don't know what proximity bias is, start there. Get online, do a little bit of research, understand what that is and how detrimental it can be to your own promotability and your own career trajectory. Because we've been thrust into this remote world and there's a lot of great things about these hybrid roles. But if you're part of a hybrid team and you live far away from the office and you've got folks on your team that are going into the office couple of times a week and they're having that face-to-face interaction and you don't know what proximity bias is, man, you need to lean into that, figure out what it is, and figure out how you're going to close some of those gaps so that you don't fall victim to the proximity bias. Because I do think that it's going to be one of those spillover effects in the post-COVID hybrid world.

Agreed.

A lot of folks' careers are going to be hijacked by, by this proximity bias.

Agreed. Absolutely. And I actually see it. Oh my God, I actually already see it. Um, I love that. I love, love, love, love that. Although I never really considered it proximity bias, but I absolutely love that. Laura, thank you so much for being here. This has been fabulous. We covered so much.

Yeah, my pleasure. Honestly, such an honor to, uh, to be part of the work that you're doing. I think it's so important. Um, so yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Oh, you're so welcome. And everybody, please, please, please be be sure to reach out to Laura, and you can go to lauradarylleadership.com. I want you to also pick up her book, uh, The Promotability Gap: The Real Reasons You're Not Advancing. Love it, love it, love it. You can pick that up and also follow her on LinkedIn at Laura Daryl. And thank you again. I so, so, so appreciate it.

Oh, my pleasure. Take care.

You too. What a powerhouse conversation with Laurel Darrell of Laurel Darrell Leadership. I loved many things, but I loved a few really key, unique, uh, pieces of advice and tips that she's provided. So we were really talking about her platform of leadership is an action and not a position. And so I said, okay, so what are those bold actions that individuals need to be taking in order to get recognized, in order to get considered, and then ultimately to get promoted. So she mentioned two. She mentioned one, get in the trenches with your team and lead from there. Really understand— not micromanage, by the way— but really understand what it is that they do day in, day out, so you're not losing touch as you are advancing into the company, and then share that with those above you. So then they really get an idea too of what it is that you and your team deal with, accomplish, and basically are, are working on, on a day-in, day-out basis. So get in the trenches. Number 1, bold action that will also have you being differentiated from those others that really just leave it up to the team and they're not in the muck with, with their team members. The second one, which I absolutely loved, um, was all about knowing the A+ problem, she said. So whether or not it is within your purview, within your function, within your, you know, role and responsibility, if there are business problems, gaps, areas that, that are broken within the company, then really kind of get to know why that is. So you can do that by, you know, reaching out to other individuals in the organization, have conversations about it. She explains all of it, but know the A+ problem, and that will differentiate you as well. Because as you advance, Laura said, as you advance through the through the organization. Those leaders are looking across the entire business to understand where are there opportunities, where are there gaps, where are there going to be risks, so forth and so on. So bold actions, get in the trenches and know your A+ problem. So there was so much in this conversation for you. So I'd be very interested in what you took away from the conversation. So please go to LinkedIn and share with us. Your comments, your questions for Laura or myself, and I'll be sure to get them to her. But I would love to hear what you're walking away with from our conversation today, all about promotability. Uh, so until next time, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it, and I look forward to having you for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Have a beautiful, beautiful week.