How to Play By Your Own Rules with Dina Scippia

Today we are unpacking confidence and leadership in the workplace and helping you to gain a solid understanding of how to take empowered action on the area of your life where you're feeling stuck. You're gonna learn how to get in touch with the goals that are really important to you and realize that no one is judging you as harshly as you are judging yourself. Lastly, we're— you're gonna benefit from really being able to ditch the negative self-talk of the fact that you're not good enough, smart enough, whatever enough. Our guest, Dina Scipio, will kind of lead us through all of it so you can really feel confident and secure in your leadership role and be that powerhouse leader you deserve to be. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders. By showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. So, Dena, welcome, welcome, welcome. It's so awesome to have you.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

I'm excited to talk about this because I love the whole idea of not only following or breaking the rules, because that's— I'm all about breaking rules, but also about— I love the unpacking of confidence and leadership in the workplace. So I want to get into all of it. But at first, I really want our viewers and listeners to understand who is Dena? What are you all about?

Yeah, I mean, I have been obsessed with this conversation around confidence and leadership for as long as I can remember, specifically because I personally struggled with it myself. I've worked in the corporate world for the past 20 years. You know, went to grad undergraduate at American University in Washington, DC, went on to get my master's in London, and I was always passionate about working in international development. I knew that to be true. I think about what it looked like when I got my first job and how much I struggled, how much I was dealing with the personal issues that were related to the story that I was telling myself. That I felt— I feel like for the longest time, I struggled to feel good enough. And so most spaces that I walked into, I always felt like I had something to prove. And so, you know, growing up, I grew up in Massachusetts, oldest of 3. So, you know, everything that comes along with being the oldest, eldest daughter, needing to set the example, needing to take care of everything. And, you know, growing up with that story inside of a family that, you know, as a child of divorce and a family of addiction, there was a lot placed on my shoulders that I felt I had internalized about being perfect. Pleasing and be that good girl. And, you know, I carried that well into college and into my first job and needing to do all the things and really not leaving a lot of room for error. And I think I navigated my 20s and my 30s still with that mindset and realizing quite recently that that way of being was not healthy. It was not healthy. It was showing up in my relationship, showing up in my career and showing up in every single friendship that I had around me.

Well, how was it showing up? Like, paint us a picture of what, who Dena was while you were in that state of being.

Yeah. I mean, I think I was, I, first of all, I always felt like I was doing something wrong. I felt like I was to blame with different things that were like, take it, you know, being in work, I felt like I needed to go the extra mile and make sure that I was doing everything I could to make sure I was in sort of that favorable light. I think I was really challenged in feeling like I— just my own insecurities around my confidence, my insecurities around what was my work, was my contribution, was the way I was showing up in relationships, was it good enough? I was always worried about what people were thinking about me, people's judgments. And so, you know, I've battled a lot personally just on the confidence front because I always say battling my inner critic is my life's work. And she's been running the show for a long time. And so I know that that resonates with a lot of women of really feeling like you lead with your insecurities, you lead with the questions, you lead with the doubting. And it's just a prison of your own making.

It really is. And shedding the corporate bitch, that's what it's all about, is those bitches that just consumed me.

Yeah.

For decades. And it took me till I was in my late 40s though, Dena, to kind of like start shedding those things away. So where did Enough Labs come from? Like, that's a very powerful but interesting play on words, but at the same time, you know, the meaning behind it.

Yeah. So, I mean, Enough Labs was born right at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic. I had this switch go on for me that having worked in the international development sector in gender equality and women's empowerment, it had me in a career that was exciting and it was exactly what I wanted to do. But I felt myself constantly feeling like I had something to prove and struggling to really see the impact in my work. And so I started to dabble in my own personal development journey and started to unpack things that I really wanted. And get clear that I was really shortchanging myself. And so Enough Labs was born out of this, really so much that was happening for me personally at the time and wanting to create something of my own because frankly, Bernadette, I was tired of living by everyone else's rules about what was expected of me.

Yeah.

I felt like I had incredible ideas, but I was always trying to convince someone to take them seriously.

Right.

And I was waiting for leaders inside of companies that I was working in to do the right thing, to be inclusive, and to listen more than lead. And that wasn't happening. So I sort of had this lightbulb moment of, why am I waiting for leaders to do the right thing when I can step into my own leadership capacity and start to craft a message? So Enough Labs was born out of the affirmation, I am enough, which I live my life by. And I think that there is no destination where one fully understands that they are enough because I think it's a process. It really is the journey. And Enough Labs was birthed from the idea that confidence really is an experiment. And I think your life gets to be the lab. So I had this thought of how amazing would it be if I could create a company that could experiment in enoughness and in confidence and work in these different labs where women and girls gather. Because the real reason that this came to be was because I came across this research that said a girl's confidence peaks at age 9. And when I read that research, it broke my heart.

Ow.

Ow.

Yeah.

That's cool. I mean, I think about where I was at 9. I think about where a lot of my clients were when they were 9, and I realized that this there's a very common thread in our experience around how we relate to ourselves and the circumstances around us. So I know that I had this desperate penchant for achievement and accomplishment and being seen and validated and constantly looking for that praise. And it was never enough. The real work, the real secret out there is that you don't have to look outside of yourself to confirm your enoughness, that it's all within. That's the big surprise that you, you get to your 40s or your 50s, or maybe it even happens earlier, but you realize I've been giving my power away to everything outside of me, people, places, and things. And I recognize now that I actually can tap into this for myself. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, and I was grabbing at everything materialistic I could find.

Same.

Thinking that that's gonna satisfy and soothe me and give me what I need. And, and you know, we're just fooling ourselves. So I absolutely love that.

Now labs, what are labs?

Are they just situation safety environments that you're creating?

So the idea was really drawing from this idea of, I wanted Enough Labs to be brought into different spaces where women were and girls were showing up. So a lab could be, Enough Labs could come to a school and do a coaching program with adolescent girls, or that we could work in community centers or youth centers. But then I started to think, why can't we work in, you know, in corporate settings? And really when I thought about it, our lives are the lab. And because Enough Labs was born during the pandemic, the lab became a virtual space. Yes. And so everything that we delivered during the last 3 years has been really virtual. And I've now started to work in physical spaces to bring this idea and coaching solutions to a different space. That's all experiment and entrepreneurship and getting this message and mission out into the world.

Well, life is an experiment. Entrepreneurship is an experiment. Everything. Learning about yourself is an experiment. Yeah.

It's so interesting inside of it. You know, when I think about the word experiment, what comes to mind is this idea that you have to be okay with failure because inside of failure there's amazing wisdom and so many lessons. And my, the real growth over the last 3 years has been really failing forward and taking, taking from each experience what, what I can. But a lot of women, I think, are afraid of failure. They're trying to avoid it at all costs. So that's been a real, real journey.

I wouldn't even say I think they are, they are afraid of, and I, you know, I tend to be more fearful of success, but that's for a different story. Uh, versus failure, because I, I agree with failing forward, but I also like failing fast.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you know, so experiment and labs and everything that you're doing is just so relevant to me and I can relate to it so much because of that. So let's, um, kind of peel back the onion and, um, in the introduction we talked about a number of key emotions or concepts and Some of them get confused by individuals. So I want, I would love for you to break 'em down. First one is, what is imposter syndrome? And how does that show up in, you know, for those women out there who aren't, cuz you're, we're also gonna talk about blind spots. So who aren't aware of the fact that that's kind of what they're projecting. Yeah.

Well, first of all, imposter syndrome can show up at any age. Is what I've found. So if you're suffering from imposter syndrome, the chances are is that you are feeling uncomfortable because you're doing something that you've never done. And you're feeling uncomfortable because on some level, you think you should be better at this, dare I say perfect. And so this idea that you're moving through whatever space that is, whether you're a new mom, if you're new in a particular job, Maybe it's a different type of relationship that you've ever been in. A lot of people experience imposter syndrome because they're trying on a role that doesn't feel like it quite fits.

Yeah.

Simplest way I could, I could explain it.

Yeah.

But the reason it doesn't fit is because you haven't done it before.

Right. That's why I forget, is it yet?

Yeah.

It doesn't fit yet.

The operative word is yet. And I think, you know, I always, I live by the belief that If I'm ever doing something scary or I am having those feelings of feeling like an imposter, I remind myself that everyone started somewhere. And so holding yourself to a standard of someone else who started well before you and has way more experience doing it and has had those failures, I think, really is an opportunity to check in with yourself because we like to beat ourselves up. We're masters at it. So be kind to yourself and be grace— Give yourself grace is something I would tell people if they're feeling like an imposter. What type of standard are you holding yourself to?

Right. Well, wouldn't you say, tell them also that if they were perfect and if they were exactly what that role needed, then they're in the wrong role.

Right. You know, the tendency to feel like there's always something that you need to improve or fix is something that a lot of women face. Yeah. And so I think there is sometimes an experience where women are looking for the evidence to confirm that they're not good at something. Right. I think if you're looking to be right about not being good at something, then sure enough, you will be able to find that evidence big time. Find the way that a certain person looks at you the wrong way or cocks their head, and you're looking for that evidence, right? I oftentimes suggest to women, why aren't they embracing what they inherently are offering to the table? What— rather than focusing on what they're not. Yeah, absolutely.

I love that. I love— focus on being enough and not— not enough.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you want to just shake them, don't you? But like we said, I was right there. You were right there. But let me kind of also make sure people can relate to this as well. Do you find that even senior, senior leaders, male or female, also deal with imposter syndrome? So the idea of like, oh, they're like perfect and evolved and confident is really wrong.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of pressure in more senior leadership roles to hide or mask what's really happening. There's this expectation that you can't show your humanity, and which I think is really unfortunate because it's a lot of pressure to put on yourself to appear like you have it all together all the time.

It's exhausting.

It's exhausting. And on top of it, have to be some level of support for the people looking up to you. Yeah.

Yeah.

So what I'm really interested in is a conversation around leadership being more authentic, right? Honest and vulnerable, because I think that's what actually brings out the best qualities in leaders. It's what fosters trust inside of a team. It's what allows people to feel connected to you as a leader, as opposed to feeling disconnected because you're unable to show emotion. You're unable to show that vulnerability. And so I think as a senior leader, you can sort of feel like an imposter where you are kind of performing, feeling like, oh, this is the role that I have to play in order for people to respect me.

Right.

When in fact you're robbing yourself of the experience of where deeper connections can be fostered.

Absolutely. So how does it show up when you, uh, go into a room, especially to senior leaders, especially, you where there's men, not just women, and you start talking vulnerability and emotions, do they go running for the door? I know the answer, but—

Well, I think there's a way to talk about authentic leadership from a place of empathy. You know, I really resonate with a lot of the literature that Brené Brown puts out there about how to be daring and honest inside of leadership. And I think right now it's 2023. We're seeing massive numbers of people leave the workforce, quiet quitting, being disconnected from the mission of a company, or just not really contributing. And I think that has a lot to do with how leadership is modeled. So sure, there are a lot of people who are sort of not taking this conversation quite seriously, but I kind of look at the bottom line, and there's a reason why people are leaving, right? Yeah. There's a different standard for what people are looking for inside of their careers, and if they can't find it, there's a lot less loyalty that I'm seeing. Absolutely. People are looking for that sense of a collaborative energy and a place to feel like they can make contributions and aren't just a cog in this process. Right.

Now, do you find though that when you can show these leaders that evidence that they care, do they actually care and wanna make a change? Or do they go, there's more people out the door that are looking for this?

No, I, I think there's not a singular answer. I'm talking with leaders who absolutely care, who are looking to build a loyal team that's looking to propel forward. And I think there are certain leaders who are saying staff are somewhat disposable and it comes with the territory and they're gonna move on. I can understand both points. Yeah. I also recognize what it, which workplace I would personally like to work in. Right. And I know what workplace a lot of people are looking for. Right. So it really is just a, it's a personal mantra. I think it's an, it's a, it's a perspective that leaders have to inculcate for themselves and the team. And make a decision as to, are we committed to building a coaching culture inside of this team? Are we interested in people's professional growth and personal development and to build deeper relationships?

Yeah. Love it.

Actually not that hard.

Right, right. Well, well, well.

Look, I think it's, it's not, not to say it's easy, but Pat often says to me, Just, it's simple.

So it's simple but hard. It's hard, simple things.

No.

Um, okay. So that's imposter syndrome. Now you used another term that I want to make sure everybody's, you know, clear on, and that's blind spots. So help everyone understand kind of how blind spots really can be detrimental to their success.

Yeah. Like blind spots from, from leaders.

Yes. Yeah.

So I think, you know, a lot of times when in my conversations with leaders, they'll tell me that they had no idea their staff was going through such personal hurdles. They had no idea that people felt dismissed or overlooked or not valued for what they were contributing. People, I think just over the last 3 years have experienced massive shifts in their lives and the way that they work and the way that families are coping. And there's a lot going on. I think it became harder over the last 3 years to mask that. Now, I'm not saying that you have to come into the workforce and, you know, into your job or into your, you know, daily role and let everything out. But I think there needs to be safe spaces in order to feel like you can share if something is affecting you, because I think ultimately the way you're showing up in one area of your life is absolutely gonna bleed into another area of your life. And, but I think the blind spots are present when you have made a certain either conscious or subconscious decision that this doesn't matter.

Damn. Yeah.

I'll use an example from a client I actually spoke to today, and I asked her if she felt comfortable speaking up for herself. At her job? And she said, no, not really. And I said, do you model this same behavior inside of your relationship? She goes, oh no, I, I practice that all the time. I said, do you, well, where do you feel like things feel a bit off? Do you feel like that's more natural in your relationship versus your job? And she's like, actually, I feel like I'm trying to perform in my job. And she's able to practice it in one area, but doesn't feel safe enough to advocate for herself and speak up for her needs inside of her job.

And what does— she doesn't feel safe enough. What does that look like?

Well, many women that I speak to who are at various roles in their career are afraid to speak up and say, I can't do that, to say no to taking on more work, to advocate for feeling like they deserve greater compensation or that they need more support and that they can't keep taking on more people to manage. Right. And I think that advocating for what you need oftentimes is misconstrued as a weakness. Yeah. And so you feel like if I display a weakness, then that could hurt me.

Yeah.

And so I think that there's a balance because if you're unwilling as a leader to see, to recognize that there may be a blind spot, it means you're not asking the questions. You're unwilling to take time out of your day and out of your schedule to really check in around, hey, what's working and what's not, right? Being humble enough to know that people within your team can give you real insight into what's happening, as opposed to making assumptions about what your team actually needs.

Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think of, um, are you familiar with skip meetings?

Not exactly.

So put it another way, it's when you know, your level, you might go down 2 levels.

Oh, right.

To get feedback. And, and yet some might interpret that as, well, I don't wanna walk on, like, I don't wanna step on the manager's toes to go down further into their organization for feedback. And yet at the same time, they need that feedback because their manager may not be giving it to them truthfully. You know, how would you coach, or what would you say to someone in regards to that.

I've actually engaged with clients on that very concept quite a bit. I think what's happening is that the further that senior leaders get away from the majority of their staff, they're not really hearing the honest truth. They're not hearing what's actually going on because, and I get it, managers want to demonstrate solutions, not problems. Show how loud they're really taking care of it. But I think it robs you of the experience of what's actually happening, which indirectly can be contributing to those blind spots.

Yeah.

So I think, yeah, there's, it's really the question of what type of leader are you in order to seek out information across the company, across the teams, as opposed to just, well, I'm going to stay here, and if there's a problem, someone will bring it, someone will bring it to my attention.

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I was asked about that today just based on my background. And, but that's for another day too. But isn't it also the fact that they need to get a good look and a really clear vision of who they are, but also do you help them identify who do they want to be? You know, and yes, as a leader, yes, as a woman, yes, as a, you know, lover or whatever, but in what that gap is so they can then see what they need to be working on that versus getting— and we talk, I want to ask you about goals, like what goals are important to them. Is that all part of it?

Absolutely. I mean, my model and, and my coaching framework is I really work with people. I mean, I traditionally work with women, um, leaders, but I, I try to really isolate what's the story that they've been telling themselves, what's the burden that they're carrying. And that oftentimes is informed by the story, the experiences that we've had that we can't isolate, right? So, you know, have some kind of wounding, like we all do emotionally. There's an imprint on you and you carry that wherever you go. So I really try to isolate what's the story that you've been telling yourself that sounds perhaps hypercritical or is contributing to you questioning yourself. And then how have you been showing up? Who are you being inside of that story? And is it serving you? Because if it's serving you, we probably wouldn't be talking in this moment. And then I ask them, who do you want to become? What's that version of yourself in terms of being a leader that people can share things with, can feel seen and heard within, and who are inspired to work with. Because I think oftentimes what's creating that chasm in term— and with respect to the relationship within that team is that people don't feel like they can be honest. They don't feel like they can be at ease. They can't express themselves. They're mincing words. They're double-checking on their work. They're not sure what they want to share. So I think in terms of goal setting, what I oftentimes work with, with leaders around is being able to inspire the team that they're working with. But also I notice that there's sort of that hidden experience that people aren't leading with where they're questioning their own decision-making. They're questioning, are, you know, are people agreeing with the calls that I'm making? Am I being perceived as too hard or do they just, do they respect, you know, how I'm leading? And having an experience where you are showing up to your role and questioning almost everything you're doing is not doing you any favors. Yeah. So I hear a lot of, of women particularly, and I don't mean to say that this isn't what men are experiencing, but I do find that women second-guess themselves more than necessary.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, and that goes to the whole negative self-talk, right? And it goes to your business enough. Labs, you know, questioning if they're good enough. So what is, what is the secret tip or slap upside the head that you give your clients?

Yeah.

And moving toward working on quieting that and minimizing that.

Well, I think for my, my singular bit of advice, and I have a lot of advice for sure, but one of them is to recognize that your inner critic is there. For a reason. That negative self-talk loop that you've been on is there to try to protect you. Your brain is hardwired to try to avoid painful experiences. So the more that you can recognize that your inner critic, that negative self-talk might be present, stop trying to resist it. You should accept that it's present, recognize that it's there, and try to counteract that loop that you've been in with recognizing and celebrating who you are and what you do bring to the table. I said earlier in our conversation about we're constantly looking for evidence to support this idea that we don't belong, that we don't deserve to be there, that we're not doing a good enough job.

Right.

And imagine what could be possible if you spent a fraction of that time actually looking at what you do contribute and what you are bringing to the table. And so I think that reinforcing the narrative that you are inherently enough, that you are there for a reason, that people didn't make a mistake to hire you, right, going to build upon itself. I oftentimes say that confidence is a muscle. It's like you go to the gym to get in shape. It's not gonna happen overnight, but you have to consciously be building that muscle of confidence to rework the narrative. Yes. To reshape and reframe what you've been telling yourself because Your thoughts become your reality.

Exactly. Now, do you provide guidance on even like them changing that story literally like on paper or in affirmations or something that they can kind of keep by their side and refer to on a regular basis?

I do. I work with my clients through specific exercises that are like really identifying out loud and on paper, what is the story you've been telling yourself? And I also asked a really important question. Is that your story or is that a story that's been thrust upon you? I think that's something that your listeners can identify with. Is this my story or is this a story that my mother told me?

Right.

My grandmother told me or society told me.

Right. I had one of those for 46 years before I kind of said, well, wait a minute, that was put upon me and I took it in.

Right.

Now I'm choosing to let it go because it's not doing me any good for sure.

Yes.

That's fabulous. That is so powerful. Any last comments that you would wanna make? We were talking about the fact that we wanna kind of unpack confidence and leadership, and at the same time, you know, based on this, even the title of the episode, what would you wanna tell people about, you know, identifying the rules they're following and either breaking them or redefining them, but what would you share around that?

Well, a word I use often is unlearning.

Ooh.

I, I think a lot of us play by a certain set of rules that are framed inside of the expectations that we've picked up along the way. Right. Especially in the context of leadership, we think we should show up this way. We think we should have a certain amount of experience and accomplishments set aside so that we can, we can really feel like we deserve to be in that role, or we should be doing things a certain way. I would say, given the context in the name of this episode, is you get to set your own rules, not by anyone else's standards or what you think people want to see. What makes sense for you? What feels fully aligned for you in showing up and getting the best results from your perspective?

Right.

I think oftentimes we are operating in a very one-dimensional way of, of leadership and thinking that it can only look a certain way. And I think it's really important to say, actually, this may work for my colleague, but this isn't the way I want to run my team. Yeah.

And don't you also have the evidence that when they do that, they actually prove to themselves that their way is actually, you know, whether it's better or not, you know, you're not looking to, you know, one-up, but at the same time that it could be done their way as much as the traditional way.

Well, if we're talking about looking at, you know, the evidence inside of workplaces, I would put some money on what do your employee engagement surveys look like? What do your retention numbers look like? And you were to, if you were to compare someone who is operating in a, let's say, fairly toxic way to their colleagues, doesn't really make space or time for, to hear their issues or recognize there's certain blind spots. And you have another leader who's leading with more empathy and a desire to create a more inclusive, collaborative environment? I'm going to put my money on the fact that the latter is going to have longer, longer retention with their, with their colleagues.

Yep. I will put that money on there too.

That's damn sure.

Well, thank you so much, Dina. This has been absolutely fabulous. You packed a boatload of stuff in that conversation. And so I'm so grateful. And everyone, please reach out to Dina at enoughlabs.com. Follow her. She makes it easy on us people. Follow her on Instagram, EnoughLabs. And obviously you can link in with her as well. Just look up Dina Scipia, you know, on LinkedIn as well. Dina, thank you so, so much.

Thank you so much.

Appreciate it. Okay. That was absolutely awesome. Dina was fabulous. Dina Scipia of enoughlabs.com. I took away so much from that. How about you? What did you take away when it comes to unpacking confidence and leadership in the workplace? Also, at, at the same time, she talked about the intersection of confidence and leadership. Love that. But these were, were some of my takeaways. I love the idea that you should be asking yourself, what is the story you're telling yourself over and over and over again that's causing you to even lack confidence or you feel unworthy or not good enough or smart enough, like she said, not enough. Uh, when you're actually enough, but more so, I love the added layer to that around whose story is it? Is it your own story from your own experiences of which you have your own evidence, or is it a story that was passed down to you or, or given to you as you were growing up? So really consider what is the story you're telling yourself over and over and over again, and then where did it come from? Because I think once you, you know, reconcile those two, you'll find that you have no evidence for lacking confidence and lacking worthiness and lacking all the beauty that you are. The other things that I really kind of resonated with was I love the whole unlearning. So you have to unlearn, and it kind of ties to our title of the episode, which is What Rules Are You Following? Because unlearning to Dena is all about unlearning those, the rules and the expectations and the, we do it the way we do it because we do it that way. And really kind of carving out for yourself the rules and the path that you want to take when it comes to leadership or even in life. So I absolutely love that. And then of course, I needed to have a conversation with you and Dina was great to support it. Around blind spots, because we often can walk through life having a perception of the world and of ourselves in one way. And yet the way the other, uh, you know, the way the people that we're relying on, that we love, that are working for us, they have a whole different perception. And so closing that gap is critical, but to do so, you have to recognize your blind spots and blind spots can work both ways. Blind spots that you actually aren't thinking of how valuable you are when others do measure you to be very valuable. That's a blind spot. But it also is where you're thinking something very different and more, maybe more grandiose of yourself than others. And therefore you really have to get in touch with the truth behind how are you impacting and affecting everyone around you, because that will have a direct impact on your success or not. Re-listen to it if you need to and share it if you need to. And of course, if you need any type of support and any type of help in really trying to identify your blind spots or those what I call bitches, those fears, insecurities, and negativities that are causing you challenges and struggles in your work and life, then don't hesitate. Book a call with me at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall. And, um, I'll be sure to give you tips and strategies and sometimes tough love to ensure that you're moving forward. All right. I'm so happy that you were with us this week and please check out all of our episodes at sheddingthecorporatebitch.com or wherever you get your, your podcast. And I'll look forward to seeing you right back here on our next episode. Take care, everyone.

Bye.