How to Possess Strong Leadership Resilience with Shauna Vassell

Effective leadership does not happen in a vacuum. It requires resilience to drive effective change within a leadership team. Yet far too many leaders are finding it difficult to be good leaders, let alone powerhouse leaders. Shauna Vessel of Concave Coaching and Consulting will share successful strategies to help emerging and seasoned leaders build more cohesive teams, improve performance, and become better leaders. She's also going to share how to motivate your team when money is no longer on the table for negotiation. Stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas. Bernadette Boas of Follow Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Shawna, how are you? Welcome to the program.

Oh, I'm doing great. Thank you for having me here. This is great.

I am very excited to talk to you. Uh, we all need resilience in our life, let alone those leaders going through so much change and chaos nowadays. But before we get into all of that, I'd love for you to, uh, allow our listeners and our viewers to get to know you, Shawna. So could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Okay, so a little bit about me. So I am a mom of, uh, I'm gonna say 3. My partner has 2 kids, and I have an adult son as well, so he's in university. And, uh, I— oh my God, there's, there's so many things. Like, when you ask this question, my first thought is, do they want to know that I like walks in the parks? Do they like to know? So I would say I love hiking, but I do not like hiking where I feel like it's a crime scene. Let's just say that. My fiancé, on the other hand, he likes to go to these places where I'm just like, I don't think we should be here. Right. He will just venture off. But that's what we do for our version of reconnection time. And I absolutely love it because there's nothing there. My cell phone usually doesn't work. His cell phone doesn't work. And we get a chance to get eaten by bugs and rub each other's backs. And that's awesome. So for me, that is the highlight for me. So in terms of me, like, I'm pretty simple. I love If I can sit with a book on a, on a beach, on by the pool, that's, that's it. That's heaven.

Hey, well, you, you know, you have 3 kids running around, and even though they're older, and you have a husband, so that's— and your work, so that's enough, right? You know, those lazy days are well deserved, I'm sure.

Oh God, I have to fight for those days. Let's just say that I gotta fight.

Oh, excuse me. So let's get into this because I love this discussion about leaders, whether they're emerging or they're well-established seasoned leaders, really kind of instilling resilience. Why do you, why do you feel so passionate about it that you make it kind of like a center, center foundation of the work that you do?

So actually, the funny story about this is I used to do a lot of change management. So a lot of the work that I was doing was working particularly with the leadership team and then going to their actual staff and then helping them to implement the change. And what I found was there's always a disconnect. There's always a disconnect when we get into change implementation because everybody sits there and goes, yeah, yeah, strategy makes sense. Yeah, yeah, we got to do this. And you understand what your role is? Okay, you understand? Okay, great. And then when we get into it, everybody has a different level of resilience. I have the ones that curl up in a ball and say, listen, I'm not cut out for this. This is not what I thought was going to happen. And then I have the others who are just pumped over it and they're like, yeah, let's do this. Let's do this. My team's ready. And I was always kind of wondering, what's the difference between the two? A lot of that came down to how resilient they were in their styles and their leadership and how they prepped their team for change. And that came with varying degrees of not only self-awareness, but also their ability to kind of, I want to say, read the tea leaves, but it's just the understanding of the situation and being able to adapt quickly. So it really kind of lit a spark for me because it's one thing to say, yeah, I can come in as a change person and help you implement. But if your team's not set up for this, there's absolutely no way I can work miracles. Right.

Right. And I absolutely agree. I mean, it's a challenge if they're not ready and/or open to that change. So help our listeners and viewers understand when you say resilience, what it— not only does it mean, but what does it feel like? What is— what is the— what does it look like? And when you don't have it, kind of what are the, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly about it?

So, you know, I— when I think of when you have resilience, it's almost like you're— if you're— if you're picturing being in like the ocean, it's almost like the definition of ride in the waves versus being slapped with the— with the wave. And that's what I would say if you're looking at, am I being resilient when the tides are coming? Are you actually kind of going with it and flowing with the waves and the currents, or are you just sitting there and just waiting for the next one to keep hitting you and pushing you back? And it's like, is that conversation around, okay, well, you saw it coming. Yeah, but what do you want me to do? But no, you saw it coming. What's your response to it? And a lot of times the response to it is not there because there is that conception that I'm going to— it's new, it's change. I don't want to do it. What if I just stand here? Maybe it will go away. And there's a lot of myths and misconceptions around it. So it's really around understanding that self-awareness piece. So when you do have that resilience, built into your leadership, you have a very strong self-awareness component as to where you stand from a competence perspective, a capability perspective, just overall kind of your values and kind of the confidence and a very good internal meter on control, like what's in your sphere of control.

How about willingness? You know, how— where does willingness— because, you know, I'm sure you run into people who just fight it, you know, change from every angle that they can, um, and, you know, drive you— it's exhausting, I'm sure. But where does willingness come into play?

So it's interesting you asked that because that's a great question. When you're thinking of willingness, a lot of times when you're approached— in my case, when I'm approached by either, um, been sponsored to coach someone who has to do the work that's coming, or they are connected with me because they've been tasked to do the work that's coming and they have no idea, but they know that as part of their performance, they have to get it done. And this is where we are right now. But from a willingness perspective, change is hard for a lot of people. And it's really understanding what does change mean for you on a very individual level.. And for some people, change means everything in their world is going to be different and they don't like that. So the conversation that I usually have with, with any leader that I start with is, how comfortable are you with being uncomfortable? And usually they said, well, I'm pretty okay with it. But then when you dig deeper, you say, okay, well, if I come in and I completely change your workspace, How comfortable are you? You're like, you know, I'm okay, I'm okay with that. I'm like, okay, so workspace, we're good. Okay, how about I take you out of your element and you're no longer the expert here, and now we're dealing with incompetence in the work that you're doing because you don't know what you don't know. How, how comfortable are you going to be? And he said, well, it depends. Now let's, let's talk about that. What does that mean? Will I have my team? Will I get like briefed? You know, and then they start looking for all of the things that they can attach themselves to for common ground. So when I start the conversation, I said, okay, we need to put a little bit of a meter on your willingness. And that's where I ask that question and I open it up. How comfortable are you with being uncomfortable? And let's measure it out. What is uncomfortable for you? What's triggering? You know what I mean?

Right. Yes. Because there's one thing to not like change or to be uncomfortable with change. There's a whole other thing to not be willing to change, right? So you must have to play a fine line trying to— and trying to find where they are with that. And then would you say that this requires you to help them get kind of down into their emotions and their feelings, and therefore that creates a whole different dynamic for so-called leaders?

Oh, of course. For any change to happen, you have to, you have to go at the personal intrinsic level. It does not— I don't care what any book says, so whatever anybody says, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. You really have to get to that person's reason for wanting to change, because in order for them to make that conscious decision to say, you know what, I'm gonna go with it, it's either they're saying, look, I got my family piece here that I, I have to, I have to make sure my family is okay. I I got my kids that I got to put through university, or I want to get that promotion. There is something there that you have to go at that personal level to understand. And I remember there was one change initiative I was in, and everybody, like, everybody and their mother briefed me and said, you know, don't talk to this person. This person's a pain in the ass. This person can't do this. And, you know, she's going to be a problem when we start rolling things out. And I said, okay. I met the lady. She was pretty, pretty tough. But her intrinsic value was, I want to retire. Like, my— I have 5 grandkids, you know. I'm just kind of waiting this out because this stuff that they're doing, I think it's wrong. I think, you know, they're doing it where they're going to put people out of a job. And her values were she wanted to protect the people there because she looked at them as her kids.

Right. Oh, wow.

So she was looking at it from that angle. So when I got in, I didn't, I didn't know that. But if I listened to everything else where they were telling me surface level, she's resistive, she's going to be this problem child, she's going to, you know, she's always calling in the union, she's always doing this, she's always doing that. But when I spoke to her, she just wanted, she wanted to, first of all, she, she wanted an HR package. And she wanted to be able to spend more time with her grandkids, but she wanted to do it when they have a better workforce plan in place. But nobody sat down to talk to her to really figure out what that looked like. So really, no matter what you're doing, if you are going to do any— if you are trying to become a resilient leader, you have to go back to Understanding the person who is in front of you and including yourself. Before you can even make change or waves in your team as a leader, you really got to understand how change or any form of stressors in the workplace affects you.

Right. Yeah. And do you find leaders are open to doing that? Because it's easy to focus on the people as opposed to themselves.

It depends. I think it depends on where they are in their own development. I think there are— so if I can get someone who is very in tune, very self-aware, and said, you know what, I want to get to that next level, or I could get the person who is on the tail end of their career where they're like, another leadership course or another leadership coaching isn't going to do anything for me. Like, I don't want to do this. And then I could get like the new one, the up-and-coming, where it's like, yeah, I want to be able to grow to the next level. I want to get to the executive suite or whatever. So they're more motivated. So I think it depends on, again, their motivators, their personal motivators, where they are in their career. And if you have to— and if they're in that position, sometimes I even ask the question, Is this a conversation we need to have with the sponsor to understand, do you really need the coaching? Is this the right decision to do this? Do you really need that development right now? Or how can we use this opportunity right now? How can we turn this and rephrase it? How can I help you see the forest behind a tree? Not even in a professional standpoint, but personally, because a lot of the resilience pushback that I get, it's usually on a personal level.

Oh, interesting. Yes, interesting. And but when, when people say to you, when leaders say to you, I want to get to the next level, are they focused on the position and the title and the money and everything, or are they also interested in upleveling their leadership style and their actual maturity and capability as a leader? Or is it, you know, I want to get to the next level purely about the rung on the ladder?

So I think initially a lot starts with that, with the last part. Everybody wants to get to that next stage. And what they find is in order to get to the next stage, you need to become the person who can perform at that next level. And that requires you— and when you think of resiliency in its concept, it really is about how can you really manage, adapt, or cope and kind of respond positively to changing environments. And at different levels, you're going to be faced with different challenges. So as a leader, you really have to really understand, just when I was at a supervisory level, your span of control might have been this. You were probably more— have more expertise. When you get to the next level, you now have to grow a new set of skills, and that might be more forward stakeholders focus where you're dealing with different agendas, different personalities. There's more influence in negotiation, a lot more kind of dancing with personalities and really understanding how to implement or execute using that to your advantage. And that comes with a lot of self-growth. So when you, you know, the jump from someone who is at a lower level going into something higher, you tend to get more conversations around, if I was to put you in this position, how would you perform? Do you— how, like, scale of 1 to 5, what are your thoughts? And if you, you know, a lot of times, sometimes they might self-assess really well. Other times, yeah, I could do that. And then they get into the meeting, is like, I have no idea. This person is, you know, and it's like a conversation around, okay, well, now that you know what you don't know, now you have a level of awareness as to what stage of competence you have in that particular role. So let's talk about confidence, because confidence is more about doing. So how many times can we build up your confidence and get you in situations where you build more resiliency, where you hear more nos, where you go into meetings where you get sideswiped because you don't have that kind of influence. You don't have the pull to make the decisions, so you end up getting beat because you're the runt, you're starting out, and you have to be okay with that. So how do you build those communication skills? How do you build those you know, kind of stakeholder assessment where you can go into the meeting and say, okay, you know what, I know that your department needs this. This is how we can work together and build solid relationships. So, you know, I always say, I always give them that opportunity to look at it from that window so that they can make better decisions as to, you know, based on where they're starting from. Do you want to go into it for money? Because that's going to be very short-lived. Or do you want to become the person who can handle the stressors that are coming into that role so that you're able to perform more effectively?

Absolutely. I love that. I absolutely love that. Yes. So the question that came up for me then is the emerging leaders, and those are those up and coming you're talking about, right? How can they get ahead of the curve, so to speak, in pre-planning versus reacting? What could they be like really thinking about? And/or when you were saying putting themselves in certain situations, um, how can they seek out those opportunities that they might even fall flat on their face, but, but they're building? And like you said, getting those nos. But they're building that resilience, they're building that kind of that ballsiness of being okay with not only change in itself, but positive and negative change. How can they go about that?

So I think the biggest part of building resiliency, like I mentioned, is it's really just— it's really understanding from a personal perspective. What, like, what am I competent in? What are my capabilities? Where am I starting from, right? And the second piece is who do I have in my camp from a connection perspective? And then when we get into like the character of that person and just their values is really just understanding, okay, why am I doing this? What is important to me within my role? And building the action steps that would be helpful and just really understanding like this, the span of control overall. And just to answer the question now, when I connect with someone or someone is looking to build those muscles, I would say, I'd say put your hand up. It's gonna self-assess. Am I capable of doing what I'm doing right now? What I want to do right now? What's my gap? What's my starting point? And if you look at it and you see your starting point is this, then start finding someone who's going to be able to kind of sit with you and say— they might be in the role or they might be someone who can be a mentor or someone you just kind of eye and visual mentors. They don't have to directly give you their time, but you're just watching and observing, right? And you self-assess to look at, okay, what are the skill sets that I'm missing? Put my— put your hand up for those opportunities and say, hey, instead of a performance or professional development where you, you know, you take a presentation course, how about you put your hand up and say, you know what, I would actually want to do something a bit more interactive, something where you are going into a different, maybe even association. Find out what the other senior managers are doing. Find out how you can start shadowing people. And I would say, pick up projects. You don't have to be handed projects, pick up projects, start looking at the organization. And I think this is one of the biggest challenges that I see, or one of the misconceptions is that because they're in the role, they can't, they can't provide opportunity options for change to senior management. And I say, outside the role, outside the role, they have to be—

they feel like they have to be confined to their job description.

Yep. And that's why I said, I'm like, I get it. You, you know, you're not getting paid for this. Sure. But think about what strategy, strategic outlook looks like. So when someone's looking to promote you, they're looking to see, do you see the organization with a visionary view? And if you don't see the organization with a visionary view, you're less likely to be seen as that next round of people that can be put into that talent management. And that is the part that I think a lot of people don't recognize. Because when you say, you know, leaders should have vision. So then where's your vision? As a person at this level, It's one thing to have vision of the work that you're doing, but then expand it out a little bit and say, well, you know, if I— if this was like this, this will impact that, and that will impact that. And then look at the overall cons, the overall strategic priorities, and see how you can bring something to the table and how you can feed into the bigger picture. And then bring that across. I think that's a great way to start. And kind of start working those muscles. It doesn't have to— and number— and the biggest thing is it doesn't have to be perfectly baked.

You don't have to have all the answers.

Yes.

Okay, I love that. Do you— based on that, do you find that there is a difference to how men, you know, will go after opportunities and women, you know, that whole thing about women wait until they're like 80, 90% ready before they ask for anything, whereas men will do it at like 30%. Uh, do you see that, that dynamic?

I see it, I see it quite a bit. And what I want to preface is that men have their own insecurities. So I coach men and they have their own insecurities. But what you— but, you know, as a female, and when I talk to my other female clients, the first thing I always say is, just because the man— a man might not put that at the forefront, they have it behind in the back. They know that they just like put everything out in the open and they could potentially be on the chopping block. But are doing it anyways. But for, for women, the first thing I hear is, I don't know if I'm going to be able to be qualified for that. Maybe I should do a certification. What do you think? You know, what about, you know, or how much should I negotiate? Do you think, you know, right now they're saying that it's upwards of this. Do you think I should come somewhere in the middle? And, you know, you're looking at someone who has all sorts of credentials and have so much experience and have been leading all sorts of departments across the board and have so much respect across the organization, so much influence and so much pull. And the conversation that comes up is, do you think I'm going to be good enough for this role?

Yeah.

And I always ask back the question, Well, if you don't think you're good enough for the role, how will they know?

Yeah, that you are.

Yeah, you are good, that you're— that you are good enough for the role. Because what is it— if I'm— if you put yourself in that person's position, they're looking for that confidence, they're looking for that level of confidence. And one of the key pieces that I always say when you're going into something that feels a little bit scary. It's really just look at the foundational pieces behind it. Everything looks the same. Everything fundamentally is going to be the same. It's that next layer up. So when you understand that next layer up, it's that— it's just one notch of competency. So where are you strongest? And this is where I always go back to focus on your strengths. Understand the things that work well for you. Use that. And offset the rest until you can get up to that next level.

Well, is there truth behind the, the idea that if you were 90 to 100% ready for that next level, that next level is not high enough? Because you, you know, if you're already doing it, then it's not a, it's not a growth opportunity, right?

I almost want to say for that one, it depends, because 90% ready could mean that the person— okay, so I always look at when you're 90% ready for a role, it doesn't mean that the role is going to stay the same. So going into that role, it— so I'll give you an example. There was a client that I had that she was going into a role that preexisted. The person that was in there was retiring. And she— they said, yep, you're, you're pretty much like guaranteed. And she was because she was the next in line. She was very competent, very capable. When she was going into that role, the executive at the time said to her, look, I want this role to change. And part of why I want you here is because I want you to take it to another level. And I want you to expand this role in a way that it takes us to— and he gave her her KPIs that he was looking for and the mandate that he was going to be putting in place. And in that moment, that wasn't 90% anymore.

No, right, right, right.

And for me, I always say, if you— when you're talking about putting percentages, if you're 90%, I think it comes with looking at the role from a fundamental level and looking at If this role has— if you put it into buckets, what does this role do? What is the next step? Is it, is it delivery work? Is it operations? What is it that is a core piece of that role? And what is the, the mandate that it's necessary that I'm going to be doing? And then look at your strengths and look at your skill sets and where you're starting from and set some expectations as to your growth. If you are looking for growth Do not write yourself off and say, I'm going to get there at 90%. I think when you— if you know you have 90% in there, the question to ask is, where is this role going to go? What is the vision for this role? And start there. Because I will not say— don't, don't, don't say, okay, because I'm 90%, I shouldn't apply for this role. Maybe you are the catalyst to change that role.

True. Very great point.

So I will say, just because it's 90%, don't write it off. The question is, what can you learn from that role? What is the new state of the state of affairs for that role? Because just because that person was in that role, and they did a really great job, the way the rate of changes and the way things are going, things need to change. And a lot of roles are being transformed into different versions of itself.

Big time, big time. Especially, I'm not sure if you're in the, you know, artificial intelligence—

use it all the time—

by really staying on top of just how that is changing everything. Yes, everything.

Yes.

So what, where do you see The biggest opportunity for leaders, especially those who have a team, and they're highly productive, highly effective. At the same time, you know, there's no more opportunity to motivate them by money, you know, but yet you need to find other ways to motivate them and, you know, even uplevel them, level, let alone get them to expand their productivity, how would you go about that or how would you coach leaders to go about doing that?

I always go back to the composition of your team. Whenever I do any coaching, there's a personal leader vision that they do where we break down what the vision is for themselves. The goals and the actions that we need to take there. Then I get them to actually do that for their teams. I get them to break it down based on where they see the different roles and the capabilities within the roles and the people that they currently have, what they think about where they are right now, and what they know about them.

If I know this is this leader direct— Is this leader-directed or is this including their team leaders?

No, this is just a leader directive.

Okay.

When we have these conversations, the first thing I'm asking is, give me a composition sketch of your team dynamics so I understand where we're starting from. Then when you go through that exercise, it's now asking the question, what is the vision? That you have for the team? And based on the composition, do you think the team that you currently have will get you there? And if, if the response is no or maybe, then we go into a different level of conversation around what's missing, where can we develop them, and what kind of conversations are you having? Because if you have someone who is raw talent but you have not invested any form of training, then you're literally leaving money on the table because you are not giving them an opportunity to grow. And if you go around the table and ask anybody about development, they will say, you know, or why they leave an organization, they'll say, well, I didn't feel like I was adding value. So always go back to have the conversations with your team to understand what kind of value do they want to add. What kind of vision do they have for their role, their careers? And as much as we think money is a primary goal, as someone who came from a very unionized public sector environment, there is no carrot to dangle. You just have to sit with people and really talk about the grandkids, talk about what they like to do, and give and work with them, work with their development, work with the future that they are looking for. And if they say, look, I only have 5 years till I retire, I have no, no interest to do anything extra, then your next goal is to find out, can I, can I, can you give back? What value can you give back to the organization and set up those transitory knowledge transfer, the KTs, and start the succession planning with that person early. So that they become more of a mentor and you start feeders. So it's like, how do you strategize your team dynamics but give that person what they're looking for? Because someone who's going out the door, their value add is, I just want to do my job. I just want to make sure I train. Just don't give me anything that's going to keep me from logging out on time.

Right.

You know what I mean? So really get to that personal level and understand Who's on your team, the composition of your team, what's your vision for the team, what is the capability within the team, and what tools and resources you have in place for to support those team members. Even if you don't have money, find out what can I do in place of money.

Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that. All right, so going back to resilience. Yeah, overall resilience. What is one big tip or strategy that our listeners and viewers as leaders can kind of walk away with and really start pondering, let alone putting into action, around resilience?

So I think the first thing to understand what resilience is, you're not always going to get resilience right. OK, everybody talks about resilience and everybody has a version of what it looks like. But what you consider right is going to look different based on who you are. So I really think, look at resilience as an individual thing, an individual conversation with yourself to understand, where am I starting from in terms of my, my embracing change? And how do I cope and manage with stressors? And then the other piece to that is How does self-care and self-awareness play into the work that I do? Because a lot of what you need to do as a leader needs to come from a very, a very personal space. And you have to be in a good— you have to not only be in a good headspace for to make decisions, but you also have to be in a good headspace to be creative. And to also be able to see the forest behind the trees. And you cannot be resilient if you do not have a good meter on how you're measuring triggers and what is causing you to kind of contract or expand.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. But I do need to ask you to— on something that you had said, you had said that you're not always going to get it right. Is it that you're not always going to get it right? And you said it because it's very individualized. So is it that you're not always going to get it right? Because in the eyes of someone else, they're going to see it to be, you know, either working for them or against them. Though, after these assessments and these gap analysis that an individual is doing, they may get it right for themselves. But yet when they start to model it or execute against it, others may not see it as right. Is that what you're— or do you have a different term?

I'll qualify what I said. When I was saying you're not going to get it right, when I think of resilience, a lot of it plays into the intentional preparation for change. A lot of that stems from how do you bring uncertainty into the work that you do? And when we bring uncertainty into the work that we do, this is where it triggers a lot of, a lot of feelings, a lot of emotions. And when you get into those kind of— when you get into that state, it's not going to always be pretty, and it's not going to always come out with perfection. So that's one of the things that I wanted to qualify with this statement, because the first time you do it, you are going into the phase of competent or competent incompetence. When you get there, you're looking at the uncertainty and you're looking at your skills and your capabilities. And you're saying, oh, geez, can I do this? But one of the things that I always say is, keep going. Keep going, because you're not always going to get everything lined up to say this is a perfect scenario. And when you think about 2020, What happened, we all got thrown into it. And when you're measuring resilience and you're looking at it and you're saying, well, I survived, that's not resilience.

Yeah, true.

Resilience is really coming out of it, looking at everything that's being done as a learning opportunity and asking yourself, did I grow? Did I become something different? Did I become something better? And did my team not just survive it, but did they actually thrive from the experience? And did we learn or get closer as a team and have not only productive conflict, but also did we build a stronger bond together?

Love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Because I don't always get it right myself. And I'm sitting here going, I wonder how other people are portraying that. This has been fabulous. Thank you so much. What a powerful conversation with tons, tons of strategies and insights, pieces of advice and tips. Thank you so much.

No, thank you for having me. I'm glad we got to do this.

No, you are so welcome. And everyone, please go check out Shauna and all the that she does, you can go to concaved.com for that, but also follow her on LinkedIn. You can go to @concavedcoaching and be sure to follow her. I can only imagine the content and the insights and the tips that she continues to share, so be sure to do that. But thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun and very insightful.

Yes, no, thank you. Thank you for having me.

You're very welcome. What a powerhouse conversation with Shawna. What did you take away from it? Let me share a little bit of what I took away when, especially when it comes to resilience. We all find it difficult sometimes to change. And yet, as leaders, change is inevitable. It's going to happen. And the big difference between so-so managers and powerhouse leaders is how you handle that change. So she talked about the fact that change doesn't happen in a vacuum. And a question that you should ask yourself when you are kind of coming up against resistance to change is know why you have to change. So why am I having to change? What is it about this change that is bothering me? What is coming up for me when it comes to not being comfortable being uncomfortable is what Shawna has you thinking about and asking yourself in order to understand where you are, where, when it comes to change and resilience. She also then gets into talking about how resilience— you're not always going to get it right, and how self-care plays into that, um, basically saying that you're going to make mistakes, things are going to go astray, or things are going to change on top of the change and send things into potentially even chaos. It's just a matter of how do you handle that, how do you approach it, how do you think about it. And the self-care plays in according to Shauna, because you have to take care of yourself first and really understanding your whole take on change, being uncomfortable, uh, adapting, and then being able to influence others around you to go with the flow and go along with that change. So I love that whole conversation, especially where self-care plays into how resilient you are or not. She also talked about self-awareness, that those that really want to become resilient powerhouses really needs to become self-aware, therefore also confident in themselves in handling change. And therefore, with that confidence will come the ability to be resilient and handle change very effectively, very successfully. So I absolutely love that. She went into a lot. She went into a lot from you yourself as a leader and being resilient, but also then modeling that and passing that down to your own team members and then even self-assessing mentoring and taking actions around change for yourself and with your team to better get everyone on board with whatever change might be happening. So what a powerhouse of a conversation, and I so appreciate it from her. We would love— we being Shawna and myself— would love to hear your comments, even your questions. So go out onto LinkedIn and shoot me a direct message, or post any of your comments or questions when it comes to resilience and change. I want to thank Shawna for being part of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. I want to thank you for being part of our, our weekly episodes, and I'll look forward to having you right back here next week for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye, everyone!