Influencing Others by Connecting to Outcomes with Tissa Richards

Do you speak clearly about yourself and your work in terms of outcomes? Very declarative and very specific. Do you set the context of the why and so what in your communications so you lead directly toward measurable outcomes? Can you call yourself an unshakable, confident leader who can build and lead high-performing teams who deliver key organizational outcomes? After all, according to our guest Tissa Richards, It's all about the outcome. Don't worry if you said no to any of the above questions. Tisa will give you the rundown of what it takes to influence others by connecting to outcomes. Stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas. Bernadette Boas of Hall of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this.

Tissa, how are you?

Welcome to the show.

So good to be here, Bernadette. Thank you.

I am so looking forward to this conversation, especially because of the fact that so many leaders do need to kind of connect the dots and, and tie it back to outcomes. But before we get into all the business conversation, um, help our viewers and our listeners to really understand who Tissa is.

Uh, well, you know, I'm just a, a very, um, frank-speaking, cowboy-boot-wearing, um, redhead who's kind of followed my own path in life. So, um, I'd say that's, that's what I'm known for.

That's awesome. That's— and you had mentioned to me before we went live, you mentioned to me that you're in Austin, Texas.

I am, yes. I relocated out here about 10 years ago when I started my last software company. And so I spend my time, you know, kind of like you do, traveling a lot. But that's where I call home now.

Awesome. And what is one thing about Austin that you absolutely love?

I think the people are incredibly friendly. Yeah.

Yeah, I would have to agree. I went for the first time a few months ago and, you know, I stood out in line in this barbecue place for like 2.5 hours and met the nicest people that we still stay in touch with. So that sounds—

that sounds like Austin. I think that's the South, right? Super, super friendly. Just really, you know, everybody just— and when they ask how you're doing, I don't think it's just to be polite. I think people really care. Right.

I absolutely agree with you. I absolutely agree with you. All right, then let's dive into this conversation because outcomes is like the last thing, but it should be the first thing, right? So what are you not seeing from leaders that caused you to really put a focus on connecting to outcomes?

I actually really love how you just said that, which is that we think of it as the last thing, but it should really be the first thing. And I don't think I've ever phrased it that way. I think context. So, so often, and especially if you're leading a team or you're leading an organization, you know why you're doing something and you presume other people know why you're doing something. And then that presumption means that you think everyone's paddling the boat in the same direction. But then suddenly you kind of get, you get everybody back together and you realize everybody's been going slightly different directions. And before you know it, it's like when two parallel lines start to diverge and now you are never going to hit that goal, right? And I think context is so important for psychological safety, for alignment, for people to have any sort of purpose and value in their work, but also to get to the finish line. So if you can actually take— it doesn't take a lot of time, but just take that time to say, just a quick reminder, this is what we're doing. This is why. This is how we're going to get there. Not in a micromanagement perspective, but just to sort of checkpoint and get everybody together. Now you're able to give people a lot more freedom and flexibility to say, you fill in the dots, but here's where we're heading and here's why. So that context and that outcome setting is so key for companies and teams to be really successful.

Well, you had just answered my next question because I was going to ask. So this isn't just about someone's immediate team, whether that's the CEO and their leadership team or a lead, you know, or a manager and their team. It's also up and down and all around, as I often will say. Is that kind of where the messaging has to come from?

It does. And that's who I work with, right? All the way from the board and the big, big goals they're setting for the company to the CEO and their leadership team, to each of those leaders and their teams, right down to the people, let's call it on the factory floor or on the front lines. Because if you can't do that up and down all the way, everybody's kind of paddling in different directions. So it is really critical that it happens across the entire organization.

And why do you think it fails so often in when it does get passed down? So say the CEO does an effective job at, you know, communicating to their leadership team, but then it just continues to get watered, watered, watered, if even communicated. What is the challenge so many leaders are having to get that buy-in and those dots connected?

I think there's multiple points of failure. And I remember that game we sort of play in kindergarten or elementary school, broken telephone, where you kind of whisper that first phrase and by the time it gets even to the third or fourth or fifth person, it's different. And I think we make a presumption that you've got these, you've got these KPIs, you've got these corporate goals, everyone knows them. I think we think everybody knows them, but it's really easy for it to break down as it's being repeated and repeated and repeated or interpreted and then operationalized throughout different teams and different functions. And also, I think there's a presumption— I'll just change the topic a little bit here, but even in that operationalization, right? So let's say that you like to communicate a certain way. Maybe you are a— maybe you're a verbal communicator. That's how you— you just like people to come to you ad hoc and tell you things. Other people are communicators where they really like things documented in detail, have a chance to look at it beforehand. But you presume that people know that about you. You presume other people are like that. This is just a human tendency. So it's that presumption that people are on the same path as you, the same sort of way of doing things. And if you don't just take that little bit of time to just kind of set that baseline, remind everybody of the what, the why, the context, things break down. That's where you get so much friction. So I think if you just take that little time and say, quick checkpoint, here's what we're doing, here's why, how are we getting there, it's amazing how much more productive and successful you can be. And it doesn't take a lot of time.

Right. Now, do you find though that the, the leaders that are conveying these messages— you had mentioned that, you know, um, individuals have different modes of how they want to be communicated and how they take in communication. So do you find that leaders are doing an effective job at making sure they understand, you know, the dos and the don'ts of their managers? And if not, how is it, or what can they be doing? Um, because without making them feel as if, oh my God, you're asking me to do one more thing, right?

Yeah, I don't think that they do a great job of it, and it's just because think about how many things you have to do in a day. And you're right, it's like, oh my God, I have to do one more thing. I think once you start to see the benefits— so I like to do a workshop, sort of. I come from the tech world. I'm a tech founder. I have a whole bunch of really nerdy tech patents. So I've worked with a lot of engineers, and a lot of tech products have what are called READMEs, right? So you literally, you read it. I mean, you know this, right? You read it and it literally says, "Read me and learn all about me." And so it's almost like a user manual for a product or a software suite. I like to do these workshops where you literally create a README for yourself or for your team. And it doesn't take a lot of time, but when you do that, suddenly you realize, hey, this is how you can get the most out of me. You hired me, you brought me in, or you brought me into this team. Here's how you can get the best value out of me. Here's how you can really actually activate me and vice versa. And if you can do that, suddenly everybody, I think it just, again, it removes friction. It removes any sense of like, oh, he or she isn't pulling their weight, she doesn't participate. Maybe that's— we're just not activating the right parts of them. And so I love to do these readmes and it's easy. You leave them in places like Slack or Teams or whatever that says like, hey, Bernadette is at her best at this time of day. If you ask her to do something a certain way or communicate with her a certain way. And so it's not really that you're asking someone to do a lot of extra work. You're just doing sort of a quick team building exercise. That actually puts really critical information out there to the team.

And are you finding that, you know, senior management all the way up to the CEO is using tools like Slack and Teams to kind of store and then leverage that information, or are they wanting, wanting it in a different way?

They're actually really open to this. And, and I think it's because you got to go to where the people are and where the tools are. And we're so distributed, right? We're so everyone's remote, people are kind of doing this flex in and out of the office, that if you're going to be communicating mostly on Slack, it makes sense to have some information, some core information about how people work, maybe also live there.

Right, right. Awesome. Awesome. Now, going back to our discussion around connecting the outcomes, what does it tell you about an individual/leader when they aren't kind of connected in and aligned and bought in on the, the goals and the outcomes that are, you know, tasked to them or that are set by just the business itself? What does that tell you in the work that you do about that individual?

You know, it may tell you something about the individual, but it might also tell you something about the organization. So maybe the organization's not doing a great job at explaining the why of the goals. So it's really easy to get, you know, the board comes in and sets a set of goals, then the CEO and the executive leadership team distributes that amongst the organization and all the different business units, for example. If we don't also say this is why, then you could have a leader who might say, that's not really my set of priorities. So it doesn't always reflect the leader. It also, I think, equally reflects the company. So I think it's important to also say, hey, if this is our revenue target or this is our ARR target or this is our target for ACV per customer at this size, we also have to explain why. Because without context, I think people, they're looking for things to hold on to. And that's really the job. That's not necessarily the board's job. That's really senior management's job, right? Hey, here's our goals. Here's why. And here's how we're going to get there. And the more information you give people, that's when I think they can step up and figure out how to make it happen.

And are there triggers or indicators from team members that should be kind of telling that leader, you know what, maybe, you know, they don't fully understand, or maybe that I didn't do a good enough job, as opposed to, hey, why aren't you doing your job? Yeah. What could they be doing proactively to kind of vet out the fact that it might be them that has not connected the dots, so to speak?

Yeah, I think there are, there are indicators, right? So if your team is maybe— I hate to use the word just dialing it in because it makes it sound like it's your team's fault. But if people are just sort of doing the bare minimum or they're not comfortable asking you questions. I recently did a webinar. It was, it was really interesting. It was a workshop, but it was virtual with a group that had had a lot of executive turnover. I mean, all the way from the very top to sort of line managers. And I think there was a lot of discomfort with being able to say, we don't know what's happening. We don't know who's going to be here next quarter. We don't even know if the company is going to survive into next year. That's really hard, right? So I think it's, it's that ability to have the courage as a leader to say, I don't know the answer to this question, but let me go find that answer with you. Where's— where does information live? How transparent are we? How comfortable are we with saying we don't know. And where can you— do you have autonomy? Do you have the autonomy as somebody who works for me to go and experiment? I mean, Google has done all that. They've done all those studies, right? Experimental or the safety— what is it? Psychological safety, right? So if you're creating that kind of team and that kind of environment, I think you'll know if your team can come to you and say, well, these are our KPIs, but we don't really know why or we don't know how to get there. We think there's a gap. It sounds a little squishy, but it's really not because if your team can come to you and say, we think we're gonna miss this, here's why. Even if your team can come to you and say, we think we have to revisit our KPIs, that's okay. There's companies that I work with that say our KPIs are not set in stone. They can't be 'cause the world is not set in stone. But if you can justify why and we can all work those together, that creates a lot a lot of sort of ownership of them. So that's where I think a leader is, is kind of got their pulse, their finger on the pulse.

And that screams to me, trust has to be built, trust has to be ingrained, it has to be part of the culture. Um, you know, what percentage of the companies though do you find, you know, are based, you know, have a trust culture? And yet, uh, you know, how— what percentage would you say do not, and therefore What is their number one thing they could be focused on? Because that's ultimately going to lead them to connecting to outcomes, right?

Yeah, that's such an interesting question, Bernadette. I mean, when you, when you work with companies too, I mean, I'm trying to, I'm trying to do the math in my head really quickly and figure that out. But meaning with the companies you work with too, what would you— I'm hesitant to put a number on it.

9 out of 10 have lack of trust outcome. Trust culture?

I think it's high too. I was going to say it's like 75 to 80%. So, and I think there's a few reasons. I think you find pockets of them, right? You find certain amazing leaders who have tried to create places where they're creating a lot of context. There's a lot of access to information. There's a lot of transparency. But then there's these other sort of parts of the big, especially a really bigger institution where they come up against things like we've never done it that way, or, um, no, well, there's bigger pressures than this number, we can't bend on this number and this goal, so do whatever you have to do to make it happen. So you kind of reach these big, big roadblocks, right? Um, so I think I have to agree with you, it's a really high number except for little pockets sometimes.

Yeah. And does your practice, does the expertise that you have in what you're trying to do work to help steer them, you know, and sometimes it is like the Titanic where you have to steer them to a place of recognizing where maybe this trust isn't built in, maybe therefore the commitment and the buy-in to the outcomes isn't existing. And if so, what does that look like for some, some companies, and what should leaders be looking out for?

Yeah, and I think it starts— I do a lot of work from the board level down. So I think it starts at the board level, right? I mean, if a board, if the board is simply saying, here's what we need to do, and we have no sense of how that's going to be activated, that's very disconnected. So that's, that's a good litmus test as well of if we have truly no sense of how the people are going to connect with the numbers we put on this this piece of paper or this set of goals, then good chance that's going to fail. So I think that's the first sort of level. Then you've got that executive management, that executive leadership level. So I do, I think it has to, it's up and down. Because if anyone that's really operational can't come up the organization and say, wait, I've got a question, I have a problem, I've got a, can I question this KPI? Can I question anything? But then if from the top down too, there's no sense of how it's going to actually, I think, be operationalized. So yeah, it has to be bidirectional. And so then the work you and I do, we have to be able to be in there having conversations at the board level and also having conversations at a sort of a line manager or a director level as well, all the way through.

Right. And what attracted you to the board level?

I do a lot of board development. And I think that, you know, they're not— board members are not operators, but if they help set strategy for a company and it's the wrong strategy, then you have— you've wasted so much time of people going in the wrong direction.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So true. And that— and so the strategy is what kind of attracts you to that type of work or that level of work?

Yeah. And I think a lot of the clients I work with are C-suite or just under the C-suite. And part of what they're doing next in their career is starting to expand their portfolio careers and get into the boardroom. So there's— it's, it's helping people do that and then seeing what they do once they're in the, in the boardroom.

Right. Well, and I, I found it fascinating. The reason why I wanted to ask that is because I found it fascinating how you talk about how leaders need to talk about themselves and the outcomes. Um, and when I immediately read that bearing in mind the title of my show, I kind of went, that's awfully selfish and, you know, arrogant. Uh, but I know that's not what you meant. So, because leaders do. So tell us what, you know, that is all about when it comes to leaders need to speak about themselves and their connected outcomes.

Yeah, I talk about this a lot, and To me, this is one of the most important things to think about in accelerating your career or accelerating the trajectory of your team's career. And it doesn't matter where you are, whether you— truly, whether you're already in the C-suite or you're a director and you're aspiring to get to the next level. Think about the question we're asked so often. Hey, tell me about yourself, right? And what I think we think we're being asked is, tell me about your work. And so we dive into this very logistical, tactical, here's what I do, here's how I do it. And meanwhile, the person's eyes are glazed over and they're sort of thinking, I didn't, I didn't need the audible version of your resume.

It's so true.

And so think instead, what I like to, to coach people to do is how to flip that question and answer it in a really declarative way that connects what you do with why it matters and your outcomes and your so what. And instead, so what you need to answer is why you, right? What is your so what? And then so what you need to do is say, here's the outcomes I create. Here's why it matters. The how and the what are so incidental to that. So I'll give you a really like a 12-second example. Absolutely. If you are, let's say you're in customer success. So you're a Chief Customer Officer or anywhere in that organization. When someone says, tell me about you, tell me what you do, people tend to say, well, I create customer programs that delight customers. Not that exciting. What you do when customers are happy is they come back, they buy more, it's recurring revenue. Recurring revenue is high margin. You can redeploy that capital throughout the company. To maybe new innovation, new products, expansion. It's great for top and bottom line, right? So flip the script and say, well, what I do is I really help companies drive high margin recurring revenue. And I happen to do that by making sure that customers come back and, and continue to buy our products over and over. So that the how is so incidental.

Yep.

Connected to the outcome that you create.

I love, love, love that. All right, so other than that 12-second example, but give us other situations, because again, you know, many of our viewers and listeners could be sitting there going, well, wait a minute, like, I'm not presenting to the board, you know, I don't go in and present to a management team. When would I be talking about myself other than what you— the example you gave was, uh, it was perfect, but what are some other scenarios that folks should be paying attention to?

Well, I think that that kind of becomes about self-advocacy, Bernadette, right? Because anytime in your career, you want to be able to connect what you're doing with why you're doing it. And anytime people say to me, well, I don't really need that. Well, if you didn't have a so what, you wouldn't have a job. So I think that your ability to always say, here's the outcome that we're creating, gets everybody thinking, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's why we're doing this project. Oh, that's why we're meeting with this customer. Oh yeah, that's why we're implementing this digital transformation, or that's why we're putting in this new ERP system. Whatever it is, it's— we're not ever doing anything for the sake of just doing it. And if you are, your company has a bigger problem. Um, so if you can be known for speaking strategically to the outcome, you're going to get noticed. People are going to go, wow, this person is really good at finding signal and noise. Putting it in context and telling everybody, or me, or whatever it is, the why, the so what, and then the little, the whats, the hows, they become sort of incidental. So if you can practice this, you will see the benefits because you're going to accelerate. People are gonna come to you and say, could you just actually, could you just talk to the team about that? Could you go and talk to your manager? Could you go tell the customer why we're doing this? You will become known for your ability to speak and convey things in the strategic outcomes that they create.

I love, love that, especially for those listening and watching that are kind of, you know, young in their, in their career. Getting that down, you know, early will be a major game changer for them as they progress, let alone the seasoned professionals, as I like to call myself.

Instead of veteran, it sounds so much better, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yes, it does. I think so. But the seasoned professionals also, you know, it's never too late to, to tell those stories and to really be focused on the outcomes. Because do you also find that when your leaders are focused on the outcomes, It also provides them confidence and focus and purpose to where if all of a sudden there is kind of a chaos, big or small, or change personally or professionally, if they stay focused, it's almost like the North Star. If they stay focused on those outcomes, it can help to relieve a lot of the internal junk that, that a lot of professionals put themselves through.

100%. You know what else I think it does is, is where I think you might be heading next with that is I think it increases your resilience and it kind of tamps down self-doubt. Because one of my favorite ways to start a sentence, which kind of comes back to what you're saying, which is the name of the podcast, is I'm known for. It's, it's really powerful, right? If you can say I'm known for creating these outcomes, it reminds you that anything that's about to come next is based on fact. We're not pulling it out of a vacuum. We're not pulling it out of your ass. I'm sorry if I wasn't allowed to swear there, but— actually, yeah, but I think what it does is it makes you realize, let's say you've had a really bad day or something's gone wrong or you didn't get the job or you didn't get the, the customer deal, whatever it is, you have a, a completely objective track record of what you are known for, how it's created outcomes, how it's created value. And if you can use those words like, I bring the greatest value when I'm known for it, what it does is it literally helps you internalize in your head the value that you bring. And that is really good for resilience. And I think it also creates another space that's really important that we haven't really talked about. You're not micromanaging that way. You're not saying to people, I need you to do it this way. You're saying to people, here's the outcome, here's why, go find a way. And if you need to come back to me and say, I found 3 paths, which one should I take? Well, we may want to talk about it, but I'm not prescribing for you the path. I'm telling you the destination. The team can figure out the path. And I think that's a really great lesson of leadership to figure out how to get to.

I, I just felt empowered the minute you said that. I mean, I mean, that's kind of like I put on the cloak of Superwoman, uh, and ma'am, and, uh, you know, and I just kind of said, you know what, yes, resilience, confidence, certainty, direction, and I'm gonna empower you. And I trust— it goes back to trust though, doesn't it, Tisa?

Yeah, yeah. And you know what, if someone doesn't perform, you'll figure it out. And so, but you gotta give people a chance to figure it out. And if you're gonna micromanage, I don't think micromanagers have, at least in my companies, have not had longevity. But you do have longevity if you say to people, we're setting context, we're giving you all the tools you need. Here's a place of psychological safety and experimentation. Go figure it out. And we're here, we're here if you fall over. Failure is okay, but we all know where we got to end up at the end of the day.

Absolutely. Well, doesn't that longevity, or those aspects of longevity though, not necessarily mean you're going to be with a particular employer for a long time, but that you're— you have, you have skills and values and traits that pretty much will guarantee your ongoing success, success, even if you choose to kind of move, you know, between employers and between even industries or competencies.

Oh, I think these are really important leadership skills.

Yeah, yeah, the whole outcome, the connected outcomes, that's a leadership skill, would you say? Is that fair to say?

Yeah, and I think that's why I focus so much on it, because to me it's a really key part of If a, if a leader is really successful, then they can build a high-performing team, and then those high-performing teams can make whole organizations successful. It's so, it's foundational, right? It really builds up a whole pyramid.

Yeah. For those up-and-coming professionals that you work with, what would be, when it comes to connected outcomes and apart from just focusing on them, But do you find that there's something or a couple things that if they can also start instilling now along with the storytelling that would really help them on their path?

Yeah, I think so. I think learning to be a good communicator as young as possible, because so many people are very lousy communicators, right? They're lousy in their verbal communication. They're not succinct even in writing. And if you lose people's attention, and if it's a high cognitive load for people to understand what you're saying, then they're not going to be gravitating towards you as either a high potential person, or someone who they should come to for strategy or just insight. So the ability to be concise, and find signal and noise, say what you want to say, don't ramble, Tell people, I've got 3 things to say. Pause. Just give a specific answer rather than going around and around in a circle. Really invest in your ability to be a compelling communicator. Be succinct in how you write. Don't jumble things up. If I see one more person say, I'm a senior leader passionate about success, I think I will poke my eyeballs out. Just tell me what— tell me where your so what is. Take out all those extra words, right? Take out the words, get straight to the point. People will come to you because they will learn that when you open your mouth, you have something compelling to say. That will help accelerate you in your trajectory as well.

I— gosh, I absolutely love that. Well, and a few things, although I'm going to recap this, but just in case it triggers anything else and an additional tip that you'd like to provide. I just love these sound bites that you've provided around find signal and noise. So what? Answer the so what. But also create your, your story around I'm known for.

Yeah.

And that is all communication that you just—

that it is, you know, just, just a really quick thing on that. It takes, especially for women, I've noticed it takes a little bit of practice. People— I have had women say I'm not comfortable with that. Okay, let's get you there. Because it can feel a little weird at first to say something that's that declarative.

Right, right, right. And that is an area of your work that you focus on, is helping them to really become that master communicator.

Yeah, and internalizing that value, because you can't communicate it if you don't believe it, right?

Yes. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. That's— wow. Yeah, yes, exactly. So the whole— it starts inside to then be able to be communicated and projected outside. Yeah, I absolutely love this. This has been fabulous. I— but I don't want to leave unless you— if you have any last tips or advice for our listeners and viewers, because this has been awesome.

Why don't I wrap it up with maybe just a really simple way to do what we've talked about? So it's in my book, but it's what I call 3 I's. So, because I think I was taught this by a really brilliant instructional designer, and she, Julie Annixter, and she told me, if you make things easy to remember, they're easier to remember. So she said it more brilliantly, but that's how I distilled it. But so 3 I's. So the first I is identify. So identify what is your so what? You know, go and ask yourself what not the what and the how, but what is my so what. The second I is internalize. Go and talk to yourself, tell yourself, remember, you know, if you— again, if you don't believe it, no one else will. And that is you say it out loud, you get used to saying things like, I'm known for— practice it with a friend or yourself or in the mirror. And then the third I is inform. That's where this communication piece really comes in. So get used to becoming a more powerful communicator, setting context for your team. But those, to me, those 3 I's, that's the process to get there and be a really effective leader. Identify, internalize, and inform.

Fabulous. And the name of your book is?

It's called No Permission Needed: Unlock Your Leadership Potential and Eliminate Self-Doubt.

Fabulous. We will make sure, because we don't have it here, we will make sure that the link, to the book and the image of the book is, uh, put into the show notes and into, um, you know, all the posts that we have. So everyone that's listening and watching, you can certainly get access to Tisa's book.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Tisa. This has been fabulous. I so appreciate you giving us all your wisdom.

It was really fun. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

You're welcome. Have a great day.

Thanks.

What a fabulous conversation with Tessa all around connecting to outcomes, meaning for her that leaders have to really understand where they want to go and what that end result is that they are trying to achieve, and they're trying to influence others to follow them to achieve. And in order to get there, then you can focus on What are the steps and the actions and even the communications we talked about that you need to be messaging in order to get everyone on board and almost bought in on the direction that you're taking? So what I walked away with, I'd love to know what you walked away with. You can always go to LinkedIn, send me a direct message, or you can, you know, add to a post and share with us your comments, your questions and any insights that you might have walked away with from our conversation. But 3 things that I took away from Tissa is the first, the 3 I's when it comes to communication, being identify, internalize, and inform. And if you, you know, really kind of take each one of those and drill into what Tissa had recommended, I won't give all the answers away now. You can go back and listen to it again if you need to, but, uh, you can use that tool of the 3 I's: identify, internalize, and inform. Then she talked about how focusing on the desired outcomes, on the desired result, the desired, um, destination— that too, when you're in the midst of change or chaos or just having a really bad day, you can look at that to really kind of gain some confidence, gain resilience— she talked about— gain clarity and even direction as to what it, you know, how to get back on track, what it is that you need to be doing, and, you know, using it to pull yourself out of any rut that you might find yourself in. And then lastly, when it comes to communicating, when it comes to really talking about yourself and the outcomes that you've achieved. Maybe it's a simple scenario of trying to influence a business case to your team or to your boss. Maybe it is an interview for a promotion or a new job. Maybe it is seeking a board seat, and therefore you need to talk about yourself. We're always asked about, tell me about yourself. Well, according to Tissa, you can be thinking about and crafting your story around, I'm known for dot, dot, dot, dot. I'm known for creating these type of outcomes. I'm known for driving these type of results and getting very specific and very declarative according to her around what those, what those accomplishments are. It was a great conversation. And I'm so pleased and grateful for Tissa joining us to share her expertise around connecting to outcomes with us. And I am grateful to you as well for being here this and every week for a new episode of Shedding the Corporate Bench. Have a wonderful, wonderful week.