Navigating Disengagement and the Power of Small Actions with Kimberly Benoit

Too often managers are blind to the real experience and impact that their leadership style, or lack thereof, has on the people that they rely on greatly, tremendously, completely to achieve their goals. They aren't consistently focused on ensuring that their team members feel valued, important, connected, and engaged, which creates a great deal of stress and frustration and even potentially a toxic work environment. Not at all what a real powerhouse leader wants. So our guest, Kimberly Benoit, author of We've All Done It: Getting Real About the Role We Each Play in a Toxic Workplace, and the leader of Kimberly Bernadette Leadership, is here to share her take on what it really takes to overcome the pressures of creating an engaged culture and how even small actions can create an engaged team and culture, but it also can destroy it if it's not done right. And lastly, how to perform an experiment to see how you are indeed showing up and the experience you're leaving with your people. So this is going to be really good. So stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders. By showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Kimberly, how are you? Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

I am very excited, excited to talk to you, especially around this subject of disengagement and really how to take small actions to build a very engaged team. But before we do that, I always like our listeners and viewers to get to know you, Kimberly, beyond the business. So would you share a little bit about what makes you unique?

Oh goodness. Um, well, I'm a Cajun girl, so I'm from Southern Louisiana, Lafayette, Cajun heartland. So truly Cajun all the way. And trust me, I know I don't have the accent, but if you catch me in the right mood, you will. Um, and no, I just— I've enjoyed life. And I tell people, I said, I feel like life started at 40. I got divorced, I started solo traveling. I now am a knitter. Um, and I'm just really enjoying life. I'm just kind of— I kind of decided to get off what everyone said needed to be happening and and making life my own way. And so having a lot of fun doing it.

That's awesome. 40-plus is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Oh yeah, it's a beautiful thing, especially around everything that we talk about here in Shedding the Corporate Bitch, around just, you know, learning who you truly are, what your priorities are, what you need to make you feel, you know, fulfilled. Um, the aging process is also a wonderful contributor to that. But let's dive into this subject around navigating disengagement.

Yeah.

So first off, from your experience and the work that you do at Kimberly J. Benoit, what do you see to be the greatest challenge for a lot of the— what I'll call managers who aren't quite leading as effectively as we want them to. But what is really going on when it comes to what they're dealing with right now?

So I will actually add on to that. So it's not just the work that I'm doing in my business, but I would say the 20-plus years of my career. I think it's very similar across the board. I think we ask a ton of our managers. And I don't think we equip them in what engagement actually really is. If I had a dollar for every time a manager's engagement strategy was related to food, like the amount of donuts and pizza. And that's great. That's an additive thing. But that's actually not what is going to ultimately drive good engagement. And I think that's the problem. I think we have a ton of people who are drowning in "gotta get done" work. And engagement's a part of that, but they don't actually know how to do it really well, because they haven't had good role models. And so that is what I'm seeing is people wanting to be a good, engaged leader; they just don't know where to start.

And so paint the picture for us. What, what does an engaged leader look like? If I were to run into them, what do they emulate? What do they model? What is it that they look like?

Well, one, it's a person who actually looks like they care about what you're actually saying to them. So, because so many times the, the example I frequently give to people that unfortunately resonates too much is, where multitasking has become the rule of the world. Like the only way you can survive is you got to have that device. You probably got a smartphone. You're dialed in and connected in 20 different ways. But what an actual engaged leader looks like is when you and I are having a conversation, I'm actually looking at you. My body is facing you. I'm not doing this. Yeah, keep talking. I got you. Yeah, I'm listening. Yes. So yeah, so what you said, like, repeat that last part. Because that's what a lot of people are doing, versus if true engagement is, if I only have 5 minutes with you, I'm going to give you that full 5 minutes of attention. I'm going to be really present with you and care about the time that I can actually spend with you. So it's, and I tell people, it's the little things. It's all in the little things. It's the eye contact. It's It's the tone of voice used. It's the fact that you might remember someone's name or remember something about them, even if you have forgotten someone's name. But just remember, taking the time to encode and remember who you're talking to is where you start.

Okay, it is in the small things, but I'll even acknowledge that that sounds easy.

No, but it's not. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. Yeah.

So what do you tell people to do? What do you, what are those, you know, kind of simple, small little things that they could be doing to elevate their engagement?

So I want to start off by saying, one, there's no judgment here. So everything I'm telling you of what is a bad, might be a bad example, I have done. There's not, that's my whole premise of like, we've all done it. Every single person has made the same mistakes. And they're, even when you are a good leader or somebody seen as a great leader who has strong engagement, you're not going to show up 100% every day. So I just like to throw that caveat out there that, you know, come on, like, no one's gonna be perfect every day. But what the first thing I tell people is, and so again, so let, if you have that one-on-one with a team member, and let's say, best-case scenario, it's a team member you like, right? Because we're going to be honest here. There's people you prefer to talk to and work with, and there's going to be people on your team you don't prefer to talk to. So we're going to go with the best case, the people people that you really enjoy talking to. Um, you, you, whatever time you have, first off, um, silence your notifications. Like, put your phone on silent, move it if you have to. If you are like a Pav— if you're like Pavlov's dogs and every time that little wristwatch on your arm buzzes, take it off, right? Take it off. If you are really struggling with engagement, like if it's in the toilet, Start here. Just be fully present. And it's actually a, it's usually an activity I get a leader to do is see how many times you stare at a device in, like, if you have 15-minute, 30-minute, like a one-on-one situation. Actually, like, be very aware. How often do you find yourself wanting to grab that phone?

Right.

Or look at your wrist? And not for time. And you, and most people would be surprised. And part of it is just how these devices are created. Like, it's, it really is a little bit of an addiction, if I have to say that. But check yourself. And then, because if you can't not look, move it, get the distraction out of your sight, and just be fully present. Now granted, if there is something you're really waiting for, because like, I've been upfront, like, if you're, if you have kids, or there's something really important you're waiting on a call for or a text for, then tell them that upfront. I'm waiting for a call. I'm not trying to be rude. I want to be 100% with you.

Right.

But I'm waiting for something really important. Then you tell them. Because what happens is, is when you break that, when you break presence, like you can get away with it once, you maybe can get away with it twice. But if it happens every single time you meet, you have now broken trust. You have told that person they are not valued, they are not respected. You've never said those words. You didn't mean it. But that's what you've communicated. And so the converse of that will happen is if you get really present with people for the time you have with them, they're going to walk away feeling seen, heard, valued. And suddenly you're going to— and again, it's not going to happen overnight. But it's a sudden— it's a building that takes place that is so key. And again, it's the subtle things like, are you facing them? Face them. Don't take— this is one— oh, another tip: don't take electronic notes. Oh, oh, because if you're on your computer and that email notification slides over, right, it's going to be very hard for you to not want to look at that email.

But don't you have a lot of young, you know, young professionals right now who I mean, they're accustomed to taking notes on their phone, having an iPad with them, having their computer with them, and they'll be the first ones to say, I'm not working, I'm taking notes.

Oh yeah, and I'll say cool, and then I, then I will stop them and say, tell me, like, because if you're so into writing, till click, click, click, click, like, you're not looking at me ever, right?

Right.

And so again, it's not just the attention, it is, are you actually engaging? And this applies whether you're virtual or in person.

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Right. So it's the same thing of like, a lot of people will say, oh, I don't like to be on camera because it saps my energy. Well, guess what? Before pandemic, everybody was in person. So you don't think your energy was getting sapped in that situation? Like, this is a whole lot easier.

Right.

You have to, you have to make eye contact, look at the person on the screen. It matters. But yeah, no, I usually challenge that really hard.

Yeah, I would too. No, that's awesome. I love that. Now I want to go back to something that you said and make sure that we also dissect this a little bit.

Yep.

Is you said, you know, if they're feeling like they're not engaged, you know, and they're not doing the— you didn't say these exact words, but— and they're not doing the best job when it comes to engaging. How have you found that those managers, so-called leaders, actually become aware of it? Because I find, you know, do you find that most of them are oblivious to the fact that they're not engaged leaders?

So it, so I say, I find two ways happens. One, it's with the engagement surveys that come out, and like, they just get caught. And it's like, what's happening? Everybody likes me. No, clearly they don't. Nope, the data would tell us otherwise.

Yes.

So that's usually one way. And then also the other way is a lot of turnover. So if you have a leader who just can't seem to keep a team, but everybody says that they're likable, there's probably something going on underneath. And that's why I start talking about— and with those, those are leaders I have worked with— is that we, before we start looking externally, let's just take a look at how you are interacting with your team. So I've worked with some leaders that have 70 direct reports. They don't even know their names. They don't even know what each person does. So how are you meeting with them? How are you knowing? Like, you can't show up as an engaged leader if you don't even know who's on your team. You don't know their name. You don't know their basic job responsibilities. Know their goals, like what's important to them. Because you have some people that want to climb a ladder and want to be a leader. You have some people that love what they do, and they never want to change. They just want to continue to grow and roll. Do you know who those people are? Because you're going to need different strategies for your team. It, though, so it's all of those pieces and parts. So I usually start with those things. What are the things you control? So you control your presence, your attention. You can control— what do you know about your team? And some people, and I, you would be surprised at how many young leaders don't take notes, because they think they're going to remember. And, and so as a, as a former person who worked in HR, let me tell you, right? Documentation is your friend. I'm not saying don't take notes. I'm not saying don't convert them into some digital form. But I am saying, if it's a distraction to you being present, you got to start with the basics. And the basics are that eye-to-eye contact, that not getting distracted. Because again, a lot of times, maybe you're lucky if you get 30 minutes on the calendar, you maybe really only have about 20, 25 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, sure. But let me ask you, before you move on though, let me ask you something about the note-taking. Because there's a school of thought, and I'm interested in yours, there's a school of thought and a a set of a certain type of manager who actually coaches against taking notes because it makes you seem as if you don't know what you're doing. So you have to take notes. Have you ever heard that?

No, I've actually heard the exact opposite. And I usually would always start like if I had a new team member or something. And I would always say, because I don't want to forget our conversation today. I want to remember what you told me that was important to you. And I want to remember what I committed to you. Because usually there's things, there's like things that are asked for, there might be some accountability, some standards set. So I want to remember. So when we come back, I can say, oh, I promised you this. Oh, you agreed to get this done by this time. And so it allows me to not forget anything. 'Cause I mean, I think sometimes people are hoping you forget pieces and parts. But the truth of it is, is if you start, it comes down to your communication and how you set the expectation of what's happening.

You know, from the beginning. And if anybody was to tell you not to take notes because it sets a bad perception that you, I mean, I have like 20 journals over here to my right, you know? So I'm a huge note-taker when it comes to, you know, the professional world. I'm glad to hear that you haven't, you haven't come across that. Okay.

I had one young person tell me that nobody does email anymore, and I thought that was really funny. And then by the time we finished working together, he was the most advocate. He was one of the biggest advocates for using email. And he's like, well, he said, it's nice because now I have a trail of what the conversation was. "Sure." And I was like, "Yes!" Like, that's part of it. And again, it comes down to what expectation have you set about how you're going to interact with each other? I also think if you're a new leader coming into a team that you have not led before, this is a perfect opportunity to level set and say, "Here's how I like to run meetings and our one-on-ones so that I can be accountable to you, and ideally, you can be accountable to me." OK. And so I like it— there's nothing I would say in a one-on- one, unless it's like HR protected, that I wouldn't say in a group environment. I want people to feel like, you know, we're in this together. You can ask me anything you want to ask me. But these, this is how I operate. This is how I move through the world to hopefully make me a better leader. And then I also offer up the opportunity, like, if you have feedback for me, that I'm not showing up for you in the right way, in our one-on-ones, let's talk about that. Because the truth is, is going back to the question of how do you know you don't have a highly engaged team? I don't want to— I didn't want to be surprised by a survey. I didn't want to get surprised by some kind of employee relations complaint. Or worse, you hear the rumblings from other people that your team's not happy. You know, I would— that's the worst is when you suddenly find out everybody's talking about you, but nobody's talking to you. So how do you create an open enough environment where people, you know, can give you feedback? So I am a big believer that feedback is important. And you, as a leader, you have to ask for it. And you got to make it safe. So if somebody gives you something you don't agree with, you still say, "Thank you." You say, "Thank you. And I want some time to reflect on that. And we can, I'll come back and discuss it with you. But thank you for telling me." You know, again, leadership's not for the thin-skinned. It's not for the weak of heart. To do it well, you've got to be willing to put yourself in some uncomfortable positions, including asking for thoughts about how you could be better at being. Well, I love that.

I love that piece about just saying thank you. So let me ask you a question. When it comes to getting feedback.

Yeah.

And, and more so getting the feedback, not being the leader giving feedback, but as the leader, you're even getting feedback. What is your stance in regards to— I love the whole, I, you know, just simply say thank you. Do you find a lot of leaders start defending themselves against that feedback at that point in time? And your suggestion is just simply say thank you and take it in, like receive it without defending it?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, I think the natural inclination is to immediately arm her up and be like, you don't understand. Well, let's, let's talk about that. No, because the minute you do that, you have now told that person it's not a safe space to give critical feedback. And if you intend to give feedback to your team members, that's going to be hard and uncomfortable and expect them to take it and, you know, absorb it, reflect on it. You've got to be willing to do it yourself. That's the only way people are going to respect you. And it doesn't— just simply by saying thank you doesn't mean you agree with it. It just simply says, you're saying, thank you for being courageous enough to tell me. I'm gonna go sit and reflect on this. Because sometimes that feedback might be very valid, and it's just a blind spot you don't know you have. Sometimes it could be skewed, like it's a perspec— like it's a perspective, but it doesn't really capture the whole story. So you can then start to think through, well, is this really an image problem I have? And I may not be able to go broadcast, like, why something is happening. You know, this happens sometimes when people, people get accused of having favorites, is there may be, like, development plans in place that you can't talk about, but there's certain things that are happening behind the scenes. And it's not because a person's a favorite; it's because there's something else going on. But you still have to address that, because the perception is you're giving preferential treatment to somebody. If that's not true, then you still have to figure out how to do it. So you say, "Thank you," because it's a gift. I mean, I used to chuckle when I'd hear that, like, in corporate. Feedback is a gift. It actually is, as a leader, because people are telling you, like, this is how you're perceived. I would rather, again, I'd rather know that now than find out, you know, in an engagement survey when I have, it's in the toilet, and now HR is knocking on my door saying, "We need to come up with a plan." Right. It's too late.

Worse or worse.

Yeah.

Or worse or worse. And, and I also want to clarify too, when you are also talking about feedback, are you talking about like formal feedback of 360s and all that? Are you just talking about when you get together with a one-on-one and with your group, you're creating this environment that on a regular basis, ongoing, consistent basis, You're seeking and giving feedback.

Yes. If, if you are only seeing your team member like twice a year, that might be part of your problem. And, and I say this with complete awareness that calendars are complicated. We ask a lot of our leaders— I mean, leaders are spending like 95% of their time is in meetings, meaning the time that they have available in a day to actually get out and do what they need to do is getting smaller and smaller. So going back to what we said before, simple is not necessarily easy. But if you don't prioritize your team, even if it's like a 5-minute check-in, 10-minute check-in, you can't just leave these big conversations for mid-years, 360s and annual reviews. Because you're always going to be behind the 8-ball and you're never gonna, you're never gonna have a team that feels like you are as invested in them as you want them invested in the team. So again, it's— and again, I'm not saying you have to have an hour every week. That's not what I'm saying. But you have to step back and say, in order for my team to feel valued and respected, what would it look like? What would the cadence look like for me to at least touch base with each one of my team members at minimum once a month?

OK, but let's go back to your example of 70 team members.

Yeah.

You know, and if anybody's listening or watching and have a large team, they're sitting there going, you know, Kimberly and Bernadette, you are smoking something because there's no way even in a calendar year. So what do you tell those leaders that do have very large teams as far as that cadence that you mentioned?

That's where I come back to, it's not about, I don't want people to get fixated on, it has to be half an hour, it has to be a whole, like a whole hour, because that's a luxury. But if you have 70 people, and at minimum, like, and that should be rare. And so this is coming from healthcare, right, which is already an industry that's incredibly stressed right now. You need more touchpoints, not less. And so that is where I would say, and that's maybe a conversation to have with your leader too, is how do you make the space to have at least a 5-minute touchpoint? And then be very clear of like, what are you going to do in 5 minutes? What are the questions you're going to ask? What do you want, you know, what do you want from them? What do they want from you? Because I guarantee you, they— employees like getting attention from their leader. They want their leader to know what they're accomplishing. And they also want their leader to know their pain points. I mean, it's true. And so what I encourage people to do is, and say, if you can't do it, if you can't have, touch every team member in a month, then what can it look like with every 2 months? Like, you have to sit and be very consistent and say, what does that cadence need to be? It needs to apply to all of my team members. Because I don't want anybody feeling like somebody gets more of me than somebody else.

Right, right, right.

Because I guarantee you, if the perception of favoritism will kill a culture. So incredibly fast because everybody talks. And I guarantee you, gossip travels way faster than the truth. And doesn't it? Um, and because it's just— and people are always so much more excited about the gossip than anything. You know, for some people, I feel like that is their purpose of going to work, is to see what kind of gossip we can share, right?

Like, right.

But I just say, it really is, this is the hard part of leadership. It's where you have to double down and say, this is my commitment to you as a team member, that as my employee, this is how I want to show up for you. This is how I want to support you. And again, that will translate into somebody saying, they value me and they respect me. Because at the end of the day, isn't that what you want? You want your, you want to feel valued and respected by your leader. Right? You don't want your leader dallying around on their cell phone the entire time you're meeting with them. Like, it's the same thing. You want to give the respect that you expect for yourself. And so I just encourage them, you just have to figure out something. Just simply saying, "I have too many people" is not enough. That's not a, it's not a good answer. So you simply have to say, OK, what is the best I can do in this moment? It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's the best I can do in this moment. And at least allow your team to see you're trying to make the best of the complicated situation you're in.

Yeah. You also talked about, you know, there's these individuals who want to climb the ladder and become leaders. What is their biggest misconception of leadership? Is it around how much it takes around engagement with actual people versus the actual work? Or what is it that they really walk into, you know, taking on responsibilities for people that they really have no clue about?

Oh, Bernadette, let me tell you, the one example I will never forget is I was working with this woman, and she was working so hard to become a leader, and she became a leader. And then she looked at me and she said, if I'd have known this is what this was, I would have never left my job. This is hell. I hate this. And, and what it was, and I think the piece that people miss the most is the amount of emotional labor that goes into leadership. It's, you know, when you're, when you're an individual contributor, it's not saying you don't work really hard, but you have your responsibility and you're responsible for yourself. And it's usually like, here's your, here's your whatever you're responsible for. You can tap out, like when that is over at the end of the day, you can turn that off. But the minute you get a team, it's a little almost like your own little family, right? Because, you know, you are now navigating what I call the 3 Ps: politics, people, and policy. So you are no longer an expert at the thing you used to do. You now have to become really good at navigating policy, politics, and just the people aspect of it. And the sad reality is, and I think part of it is, is we've had a rough couple of years. I I think there's a lot of mental health strain across every industry. And the challenge is, is people are messy, and it's not easy, and people need vacations, and you still got to get things covered. And, you know, you've got to figure out stuff that had nothing to do with the job you did before. And I think that's one of the things I noticed the most is people who are really good at something think that when they become a leader, they're immediately going to be respected. You know, there's some people stuff, but they still hold on, like, but I'm still this expert.

Right.

Yes. But actually, that becomes a very small part of your job, because now you're coaching other people, mentoring other people to be an expert in that thing. And you're spending most of your time managing the team. And I think that's, that's, I think, a disservice almost every company, every industry does is that before we put people into positions of leadership, I think we need to do so much more in educating them what leadership really is and what it isn't. So that you don't have people getting in there and, you know, kind of the deer in headlights, like, "Ah! Huh?" Like, because, again, new leaders, I think it's the worst. Because once you get off on a bad foot, it's really hard to recover.. And if you don't have strong examples in your career path, it'll be really difficult.

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely, absolutely agree. And I, and I'm so glad we got to that point of your 3 Ps. Yes, because I do, I do think that managers/leaders really need to pay attention to that, that, you know, it's those 3 things that they're navigating, and therefore what do they need to do to get good at those 3 things? As opposed to what they're accustomed to doing around their expertise and skill. All right. So what would you leave our listeners and viewers with as far as getting to be engaged and building a culture that is engaged and people feel valued and important?

I would go back to where we started in small actions matter. Putting that phone on silent, taking that Apple Watch off, really just fully being present with the person sitting on the other side of them for whatever time that is. Though, like, again, it's not— this isn't magic. Go back to People. Nothing about this is magic. But it is about, it is about staying consistent. It is about apologizing when you need to, when you screw up. But the little things matter. Setting expectations, all these little actions build into people feeling they can trust you and understanding who you are so that when you do have the occasional flub, they know it's not who you truly are at the core. And they're going to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you've got to, you've got to show up for them first.

Well, that is fabulous, Kimberly. What a wealth of information in such a short period of time. And I want to suggest to everyone, please be sure to check her out. Um, on our website, you can go to KimberlyJBenoit.com, uh, to learn all about her and her services and what she, you know, and how she can support you. Follow her on LinkedIn, you'll find the same. You can just look for Kimberly J. Benoit, B-E-N-O-I-T. Um, but also, I really highly suggest this, get her book. Her book is called We've All Done It: Getting Real About the Role We Each Play in a Toxic Workplace. And it'll touch on what we've been talking about today and so much more. Not only can you get it on Amazon, but you can go to tiny.cc/KimberlyBenoitBook and find it there as well. Kimberly, thank you so much. This has been fabulous.

Thank you so much for having me, and I really hope your listeners enjoy. Send some feedback, connect with me on LinkedIn, and let me know what's working for you.

Love it. Love it. Yes. Connect, connect, connect to everyone. Engage, engage, engage, as we talked about. Yes.

Yes.

Thank you, Kimberly. I absolutely loved this conversation with Kimberly Bonnot of Kimberly Bonnot Leadership, all around disengagement and the small actions that it would take to create a connected, valued, important team of engaged individuals. So what I really took away from it, the big one, actually are a bunch of little quotes. But one is that gossip travels so much faster than the truth. So your ability to engage with your people authentically, and, and communicate with them genuinely will help any of the rumor mill and allow you the opportunity to get face-to-face in a very transparent, open, and honest conversation with team members. At the same time, she mentioned how leadership is emotional labor. It's hard. It's not easy. And she even kind of outlined how she wished that individuals were educated on what really leadership is— her 3 Ps, which is policy, politics, and people. That's what leadership is. Is dealing with the policies, the politics, and the people. And if you can learn how to navigate through all of that, then you will be a powerhouse leader. I absolutely love this conversation. I hope you did as well. And if you do have any comments or questions for Kimberly or myself, then be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn and leave a comment. You can private DM as well any comments or questions for myself and Kimberly, and I'll make sure that I get it to her. All right. We'd love to hear what you took away and what you're thinking when it comes to navigating the disengagement of teams and how small steps can create a very engaged culture. All right. And then until next time, I'm very honored that you were here with us. And I will see you then for another episode of Shitting the Corporate Bitch. Bye.