Navigating Multigenerational Dynamics for Success with Dr. Don Thomas

When you consider that there could be 5 generations of individuals on your team within the business, what comes up for you? What gets triggered as far as the challenges, the opportunities, the frustrations, the excitement and the curiosity of needing to relate to such a wide span of individuals? As leaders, it is absolutely essential and critical that we learn how to tap into what each of those generational individuals needs, wants, prefers, requires in order to be a very effective and successful contributor to the team. So our guest today, Dr. Don Thomas of Innovative Spark Enterprises, is really gonna help us understand what multi-generation communication strategies, techniques, requirements are, uh, uh, amongst that vast span of individuals. And then also he's going to discuss what you can learn from pirates and pirate leadership, and that can contribute to you being far more effective with all the various personalities and individuals that you have on your team. And lastly, What are the motivations of the different generations to really want to be highly valuable, highly contributing individuals to the goals and objectives that you might have? But multi-generational communication is absolutely critical for any leader in today's business environment. So stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch. The podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Don, how are you?

Welcome.

Welcome. Welcome.

Well, thank you. I am very well. I'm excited about being here.

I am excited to talk about this because I think it is important to talk about all the various generations and the, and the dynamics that that creates, especially in the workplace. One other thing that I noticed in the research I did on you. Is you also refer to yourself as a pirate. So we're gonna talk about more about that, but I need to understand and hear that story.

Oh, absolutely. So first of all, I'm gonna give you what I'm gonna consider my tagline that describes me. One sentence here. I like to consider myself one part strategic communicator, one part technologist with a sprinkling of pirate thrown in just to keep it all balanced. So pirates, pirates are interesting. Why I consider myself a pirate, I actually used to be known as the Pirate Entrepreneur at one time. And then I guess I grew up or I moved on. I'm not sure, but pirates have already, has always stayed with me. The reason why is I truly believe that pirates were probably one of the first noteworthy entrepreneurs in the world. And it's interesting when you think about it, you get rid of all the killing and all the fun stuff like that, and we get down to more, you know, remove the romanticism a little bit. Why did people become pirates? And I kind of looked back at myself for that. We became pirates because we didn't want to be where we were. People may have been hungry. They may have wanted better living conditions to be with more, you know, like-minded people. And they became pirates. They were very much using a lot of leadership ideas before there were even leaders out there. And I've always found myself gravitating that way. And, and before I just roll into telling you all about why Hires are probably a fantastic leadership model. I'll pause there.

Well, I definitely want to understand kind of how they, it intertwines with looking at the multi-generations that we've talked, you know, that I mentioned that are in the workplace right now and the impact that that has as well with leadership. So first, share with us the multi-generations that are in the workplace so our listeners and viewers understand it.

We actually are in a very unique situation right now. This is one of the first times in recorded business history that we have 5 distinctive generational cohorts or groups working in the same business. We go down from our traditionalists, who are many of the people that, you know, I always say this, the get off my lawn kids. So these are people that really grew up and they had the idea of kids, you You know, should be seen and not heard. They're in our oldest group there, also called the Silent Generation. They have a lot of interesting aspects. When we go down the line where we have, you know, different groups like Baby Boomers. So Baby Boomers, then we go down to Gen X, Gen Z, uh, Millennials, Gen Z, and now Gen Alpha. And all these people have very unique aspects to them and why I think it's very interesting. And just so it'll make better sense, part of my background is I actually have that doctorate in strategic communication, strategic leadership, and I kind of focused my life on how do people communicate? And because a lot of times, as I've told people, my superhero ability, if I had one, would not be x-ray vision or anything. My superhero ability has always been the ability to translate from one particular group to another. If it's in technologies, from technology to business and vice versa. So why is it interest— why does all this come out? Where a lot of leaders have challenges now is setting expectations for different generations. Me, Gen X, I can tell you real quick what makes my boat tick in a business world. My group grew up, we were latchkey kids. We actually had the largest amount of divorces ever For Gen X, it kind of grew us to be independent. We're also unique that we have one foot in technology, old technology, and one foot in new. I remember corded phones and cell phones about the size of my arm.

Yes.

So we grew up and that made us very self-reliant. But let's go down a couple of generations. Let's go to Gen Z. Gen Z are usually about 1997. To about 2011. So this group, what made them unique and what, just so you know, I would take one step back. When we talk about a cohort, it's like, what are the unique aspects that shaped this group? They were shaped by such things as the towers falling. They were shaped by, you know, different aspects like that that made us think different ways. We look at a Gen Z, they're like, well, I refuse to do an email half the time. I'm going to send you some, something on text. I'm going to show you something on Instagram, probably an animated GIF, by the way. GIF for GIF. That's a different story. So it's the idea of how do you get everyone to communicate? Also in the business workplace, every generation has something slightly different they're trying to get out of it. You know, my particular generation, we love data. We are the email kings and queens of the world because Gen X love to email and keep those emails for communication.

Right.

So we have a way of that. We want to get in and really see organization. We want to see growth. We want to have that. We want to tick off the boxes as Gen Xers. Gen Z is like, well, I'm not really here for the money. I know I need money. I'm here for the cause. What cause is this particular organization doing that, that resonates with me and what am I gonna get out of it? So where the challenge comes is you have a Gen Z saying, I'm here 'cause I want a culture of a certain specific method. And then you have people, millennials, you know, baby boomers, it's like, well, but it needs to be this way. So what the challenge for all business people has come up and everyone, every, I'd say almost once a day. Minimum, people say, how do we communicate?

Right.

You communicate by finding out what their language is. And it's really interesting. I always tell people you need a Rosetta Stone to be able to talk between the, the different generations. And that Rosetta Stone allows us, and that's a metaphorical Rosetta Stone, that allows us to rotate around and say, what does this person need from me? And what's the best way to communicate? And that takes a lot of work. It's not just reading a room. As leaders, we're always reading rooms and saying, you know, how do I communicate with these people? These are salespeople. You know, these people could, they want to take a nap.

Right.

And it's a little different here because you actually have to be able to juggle multiple personas or cohorts all at the same time. I did a really large study on How do you communicate in a remote environment with a multi-generational IT organization? It's like, wow, that's, that's ratcheting it down. How do you do that? Not easy.

Yeah.

But it does come down to one of the things we're missing nowadays is ever since COVID we all started working remotely. So we, we're missing those aspects.

Now, what as— well, we're missing what aspects? Understanding each other?

Oh, I'm sorry. Of actually seeing each other. The reason why is because we read about people by looking at them. You know, we can look at people to see how they, how they feel. There are more than one generational pictures on a Zoom call, and we can hear in their voice and, and a tenor, a tenor and so forth. We're missing those aspects. We have to make it up. So we have to say, I see you on this here. So we have to do the, hey, can you hear me? Can you see what I'm displaying? You know, how many times have we heard that every day? And so, so we have to ask those types of things. So it's a communication kind of hodgepodge of way of getting to know people. And it's changed.

Yeah. But, and, and I could be a little, I be, I could be simplifying this too much, but is it, but are there managers and a good amount of them that are just using that as an excuse to not take the time to really understand who their people are.

If I had a bell, I'd be ringing it right now.

Yeah.

Because absolutely, it's gotten frustrating for people to some degree. And so they've, I don't wanna say people have given up, but they're looking for excuses many times. 'Cause it, it used to be when we were, let's say we were in an organization that had cubes, a manager might walk around, say hi, and see everyone at that same time.

Right.

A little difficult now unless you're on a call with multiple people. So a lot of people have given up in, in trying to understand. They've given up trying to unlock what their team looks like, what their organization looks like. And many times it comes down to being adaptive in nature. You have to be adaptive. You gotta be able to change on the fly to be able to communicate properly. And the hardest part most people have is giving some of the things that you like best and giving them up. What I mean by that is I absolutely adore email, as I said earlier. That's my lifeline without email. But I have many team members who will not respond to an email. So do I give up on them or do I find the right way to communicate with them?

Right.

And many times that's, it can be a text, believe it or not. I see this even with my own kids. You can be at the same table if they're texting each other. Turn your heads, look at each other and say something.

Right. Right.

It's a culture.

Right. Well, is it a, and again, are these things just accepted as like, oh, okay, because it's a culture or it's their age and, and are managers kind of falling short in creating that discipline and that structure and those, you know, those requirements of, You know, there are people, because I can hear a bunch of people right now out there, especially from the, let's say, baby boomer traditionalists that are sitting there going, wait a minute, I'm the boss. And if I say email, it's going to be email. And that's not the way to go about it.

Right? Exactly.

So what's that middle? What's that middle place where, you know, you meet to where you're trying to satisfy them, but at the same time, that's not effective communication either in some instances.

Exactly. How I usually work on that personally, and I always tell people, you gotta change a little bit. Depends on how your team looks like. It could be a team of 1 or a team of 200. Right.

Sure.

But what really happens is you need to be able, as the leader, to rotate through different methods and teach people what's going on. I, when I speak with a group, I usually use 2 or 3 different metaphors of what I'm doing. It could be You know, I'll display something with an icon or an emoticon and to get across, or I'll have people try to communicate a gen, maybe like a Gen Z, I may pair them up with a Silent Generation and have them communicate. Because really it's that action of being able to work together. And yes, it's difficult. Don't get me wrong. It's not like, woo, all of a sudden we know the magic. People do have a challenge in that communication. And as we get older, we get stuck in our ways.

Yes.

And so it comes down to a very strategic methodology of being able to put the right people together to use different methodologies. I will use sometimes email, sometimes I'll use chat between a different team member, not just one, but all of them to get them all used to working with the different ways to communicate. It's the same thing as well as culture when people are trying to say, I'm here because I really like the culture of this. And the other person's like, I could care less. I'm glad I'm getting paid well. The idea is to get them to understand they're both here for different reasons. Yes. And that it's, it's that interaction of being able to bring them together. And it's kind of, to be some degree, I'm gonna even jump back a moment into the pirate metaphor. What was fantastic about pirates, unlike what people think, They thought, hey, I had a captain. The captain said do this and that's what you did. And you know, other than that, you're walking the plank. Really? If you look at how pirates operated, they were very democratic in nature. Almost every captain was elected by the crew. Everyone knew what their job was and they knew I was here because I wanted to be X or I wanted to be Y. We already established how the share of work would work. And if the captain messed up, if the leader messed up, he may be the one walking the plank. And I think that's kind of what we have to look at. We have to gauge the people we work with and see if they're understanding, if we're resonating with them. If not, get that feedback as to what am I doing wrong to reach you? And then be firm with that. You know, captains weren't, you know, they, they didn't put up with a lot, but they knew how far they could push.

Right.

And so I always loved that about Pirates, because that's why I do exactly what I do now.

Yeah. So let me ask you a question on that note, because what jumped up out for me is, do you find that there's a lot of managers or a lot of businesses, I should say, that are establishing almost soft skill leadership goals and metrics and tracking and measuring them and even compensating them on that versus just all the, the hard business metrics. Or are they being held accountable on these leadership communication, you know, connection type of goals and objectives?

Right. No, excellent question. Because what I'm seeing is that people are finally realizing that you just can't sit there and say, this is exactly how we do it. There's a need for a change to be leaders, to be businesses. The reality is every business wants to be successful. And so to be successful, you need strong leaders, but leaders that understand how to change the methodologies. Like today we look at AI, you know, Gen AI is a big, you know, whoop and everything, and it's great, but if you can't use it properly, it's not bringing value to your organization. Same thing with leadership is that I'm seeing a lot of people put these soft skills in place and expectations, but I'm probably not seeing as many organizations give more attaboy saying, hey, great. I want you to learn these skills and you'll be more successful. I see that they're putting them out there, but they're not really encouraging as much as I would like to see of them growing as leaders. I think we fit a little bit of the, you're a leader, get the job done. It doesn't matter. And that's the old school. Today we want to have you do a little better. And here's the, here are the 1,200 things we would like to see you do. But If you don't get to them, that's all right. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, it has to be in the work that you do. It has to be kind of frustrating, but then exciting and fun to kind of see that transformation over time. Because like you said much earlier, it doesn't happen like that. So where do you see the biggest value to be if managers/leaders would recognize this multi-generational dynamic and then to tap into it? Where have you found the greatest impact to be?

That's a great question. I'm actually got, I've seen so many. So let me think of a great, I guess, I guess a stopping point for that. So where I usually see happening here. Is that there is a greater dynamic of people enjoying what they do. And I see that a lot when we start working on that communication aspect. So many times you'll have people that are like, I'm here for the job. I, you, we've seen it in memes, you know, you don't pay me to respect you or to enjoy the organization kind of meme. But what we see now is when we start actually starting those human type of connections within business, like we used to. And setting the right patterns and so forth, is that we're seeing people enjoy it once again. They're enjoying not just being there to count the hours. So I think what I see in these multigenerational communications when they work is that people feel better about themselves. They feel more successful. They feel integrated into an organization that cares about them. And it shows because what happens is these organizations begin to thrive. They're no longer just saying we need, you know, like certain key businesses, very large ones have, as I would say, have given a haircut and removed a lot of people from their organization because they found out we don't need that many people. And you probably didn't need that many people, but you need to fill the gaps. For some reason you felt that we just throw people in there and they'll get the job done eventually. You know, so how many monkeys do you put in a room to and they'll eventually type some great novel. But with the right people that have been motivated, and I see it all the time, that they actually engage, you know, they, they no longer are kind of working by themselves. They work as a team. So that's what we get out of it. It's not a long journey, which is fantastic. That journey usually starts fairly quickly. I've seen in a couple of months, things start turning around, not finish. Right. But the start, and that's what I love seeing is, is we're seeing very successful people become more successful.

That's awesome. And yes, who, I mean, if you're going to spend that much time of your life, you know, working and working and engaging with these other people around you, you might as well find a way to make it enjoyable. So, and do you also see where it's changed the dynamic of even, and you said you have to have the right people. You know, and so do you see it as early as in the hiring process where they're talking to these individuals about the multigenerational dynamic and trying to field test them as far as how best they do communicate or how they, you know, what their methodology is that would support the dynamic of that team?

And I think that's a great question. Unfortunately, I see less of it than I would like to see. I have actually gone out there and have told people I'm going to apply. I think I applied to like 20 different jobs just to see how the hiring process was.

Oh, nice.

Maybe 3 of them gave me any type of communicational aspect of to see how I would fit. And so it's sad because it's such a simple thing to do. But what's happening now is we're using technology to vet people, put them in a certain basket. You fit here, you'll do well there. And we're forgetting about those soft skills. And those soft skills are so critical for being successful. You know, who, who wants to hire anyone for them to be unhappy in less than a year?

Right.

But with a little bit of extra work, you know, seeing how they would fit, what's their communication, what are they looking for out of the company? As I tell a lot of people looking for jobs nowadays, you need to, at the end of that interview, ask them some very important questions, whatever's important to you. First way you should ask is, what's the culture?

Right?

Am I going to fit in here? Unless you're just exchanging time for money, you're going to want to know that. You're going to want to know where would you fit in. Maybe you're a 20-something, you know, we've got you out there as a Gen Z. Are you going to fit in with a bunch of Gen Xers? If so, how have they made that? Work so that you can integrate well in? And those are the questions I talk to a lot of HR people and they sit there and they're like, we love it. It's fantastic. We don't do that. It's like, well, we need to change that.

Right.

And I think that's for every leader. You change and how you bring people in and you use them in a way that is fantastic for them, but it just makes what you do in your organization do be much better.

And is it fair to say I'm gonna go back to the excuses. Is it fair to say that no individual manager should use as an excuse that it's not the culture, it's not the, you know, the overall business process, but if they themselves want their team and their culture and dynamic to be more effective and more collaborative, then they should implement some of the things that you're talking about?

Absolutely. I mean, The, the biggest complaint, as you just said, is people say, I don't have time to do this. It's, you know, it's not my job to do this. And at that point, they are managers, but not leaders. They're managing the workforce. And I like to make sure people understand that to be a leader, you have to lead. I know it's an odd concept, but if you just want to manage people, that's a different story. If you wanna do, you know, regular occupational type of management. Leaders, they take value in their people. They grow their people because it just helps them be better. I always say, you know, we always look at leadership as maybe, at least most people do, as like a pyramid and the leader's on the very top and you have all the people below. My philosophy is that's turned upside down. The leader is actually on the bottom supporting everyone else in that pyramid. And that way they all get what they need going up.

Oh, I absolutely love that, Don. I love that. And I'm very visual, so I love that analogy as well. And for those of you, like, listening versus watching, he pretty much had a pyramid and then he turned it upside down on its head. Absolutely love that. I want to hear a little bit about your book. And I, and I have it up. It's called A Pirate's Guide to Strategic Leadership. What is unique and what should those managers/leaders really be looking for as far as what's in your book?

What I love about the book, it's not that I wrote it because I did write it, but that's not what I love about it. What I love about it is it's a concept that we could all align with. Pirates. Who does not know what a pirate is?

Who—

I don't care if it's watching Pirates of the Caribbean or whatever. We have a romanticism about pirates. And so what it— what I love about it, and I think people get away from it, is I did very intensive research as to why are pirates great leaders? Because it is one of those things just stuck in my life. I've always loved the idea of being a pirate. What people will take out of it is strategic leadership is the idea of how do we plan from a business in the future to be able to continue with what it's doing. So we have occupational leadership, which is what we're doing every day. Everyone comes in, does their job, but how do we become successful in the future? We don't strive enough for that in many organizations. We add risk and so forth. What this book does, it takes some basic ideas about that type of strategic leadership, which my background is in, and we apply it to a metaphor of this is how a pirate did it. This is how a pirate did adaptive leadership. This is how we did democratic decision-making. This is how we did risk-taking and innovation networking. So all the concepts that a good leader needs to know about, we can go back hundreds of years and say, They've already been doing it. They started in the 1600s. Well, you know, what's taken you so long to get here?

I love the aspect that you have. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I love the other attribute that you talk about with the book, and that's courage that it takes to be a leader. And so, so few talk about the courage it takes to be a leader.

I think between courage and an old term I love to talk every day about Grit. You've gotta be able to get and do it. Don't just sit back. You can't dial in leadership.

Right.

So you wanna have the courage to get out there, to put yourself out in front of others, then have the grit to put your foot down and say, this is what we're going to do. And that's really, it sounds simple. Those two things will get you far in life and leadership, but they're very intricate when you think about how they're actually applied in what you do.

Oh gosh, I love that. Okay. So then one other thing I want to make sure that I come back around to in case our listeners and viewers ask is you had mentioned Gen Alpha. So let's make sure that we don't, you know, overlook addressing, explain what a Gen Alpha is.

So Gen Alpha is the latest and greatest, I would say, of the particular generational cohorts. So. Every generation we know applies from one time, you know, there's not really a very scientific method when it comes to that. It's not 20 years. It's not 15 years. We look at what's going on. Gen Alphas, we used to think were people that were born around 2012, but we kind of went backwards within the last year. We said, yeah, they're probably born around 2009. The reason why we talked earlier is that generations are built upon unique aspects to what made them be who they are. In 2009, first iPad came out. And so they are a technological group. They have never wanted for technology. You see, you know, kids nowadays, they go to restaurants, they have iPads in their hands and they have phones. They have phones by age 6. So they don't know what it's like to have to write something on a piece of paper most of the time. What's very unique about them is they're a clean slate. They, they took what came from Gen Z who were kind of skeptical about what we did and changed everything. And they're like, okay, how am I going to make things better? And that's what I love about Gen Alpha. Many of them are already planning on, you know, we've seen challenges with Gen X, Gen Z. How are we going to take this back? And so they're very proactive in what they do. They're very technologically minded, but they're also the ones that will put down what they're doing and walk out in a field to pick a flower. They have a very diverse methodology. I think these, this is the generation we want to watch for. They're not quite in the workplace now. They're getting there, but we want to watch. There many times it'll be our kids sometimes, you know, if we're young enough.

Right.

So watch them and grow, help them grow. To maybe be a little better than some of us, but you know, they, they don't have really negatives yet. You know, we all, everything from COVID to, you know, the towers falling to particular wars around the world. They're not there. They're kind of isolated, which is what I love about them. Yeah. They're able to maybe take a different version of the world we're in and hopefully make it better for business, become our leaders, grow things once Yeah.

Yeah. Let's hope we need leaders. We need leaders. We need leaders.

We don't teach leadership.

Pardon me?

We don't teach leadership anymore.

That's another, we could have another whole conversation about that one. Yes, we can, which is very sad. But all right. So what would one, one tip be or one piece of advice for our listeners and viewers when it comes to being a stronger, more strategic leader as a result of understanding the multi-generations that they're dealing with in the workplace.

Absolutely. So you kind of led us there a little earlier, and I'm always going to start with courage. Leadership is scary. It is if you've never done it before, especially now, if you're going beyond your peers. So your peers are your same generational cohort. It might be okay. You can probably work with them. You may not feel a little weird about it. But what I'm gonna leave everybody with is the idea that everyone is looking for the exact same thing. Communication. Communication is what's gonna make or break an organization. So everyone's looking on how to communicate better. And you know, the, what I'm leaving people with is drop your guard, meet someone that you haven't normally worked with. If you're, uh, maybe you're a baby boomer, go find that Gen Z and have lunch with them. Learn the communication style.

Yes.

It's going to be very quick. Gen Z, quick staccato. I have, you know, 3 things and a happy face. Um, boomer, you're going to have to cut it down a little bit. You're going to meet in the middle and you're both going to appreciate it because you're going to learn to communicate better. So that's my takeaway is get out there and actually communicate with people and be willing to drop your guard.

Love it. Absolutely love it. Well, everyone, please go to drdontomas.com, learn all about the work that he's doing. And actually he has some fabulous articles, blog posts out there on his website. So please do that, but also pick up his book, A Pirate's Guide to Strategic Leadership. You can. Do that at booksbydon.com. And then lastly, follow him on LinkedIn. He's DonThomas99, but at the same time, you'll see that same photograph in a blue shirt across all of his platforms. But Don, thank you so much. This has been fabulous and very fascinating, especially when it comes to the multi-generation, but I appreciate your time.

I've had a fantastic time and I appreciate everything.

Thank you. What a powerhouse of a conversation all around multi-generations that exist within the workplace that could actually be on your team at this very moment. Everyone from the traditionalists, I mean, baby boomers, Gen Xs, millennials, Gen Zs, and even Gen Alphas. And really what it takes to tap into each of their individual needs and preferences and requirements when it comes to getting the work done, basically. And so our guest, Dr. Don Thomas of Innovative Spark Enterprises, really laid out some great analogies, great strategies and tips. And what I really loved about it was how we as leaders today really need to be thinking not operationally or occupationally, but But strategically, we need to be focused on the future. And with the rate of change right now that we're all going through from, you know, from the culture, from the economics to the technologies, we need to be very adaptable, very nimble, very flexible, very strategic leaders if we want to succeed. And if we want our team members to really thrive. Within our organizations. If you are dealing with your own struggles or the opportunities you're being presented as a leader and needing to figure out some strategies and tips of your own to really be a powerhouse leader, then be sure to just reach out, schedule some time, and let me give you some tips and ideas for yourself specific to what it is that you might be dealing with. So you could always go to coachmebernanette.com/apply. Discovery call and schedule some complimentary time with me, and I'd be honored to support you. All right. But I am so thrilled that you are here with us this week, and I'll look forward to having you next week for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Have a great day. Bye. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained some valuable insights. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and even LinkedIn to stay updated with the latest episodes. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and our Shed the Bitch TV YouTube channel. Lastly, if you liked what you heard today, please give us a thumbs up, leave a review, and share it with your friends and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and until next time, keep shedding those bitches of fear, insecurity, and doubt, and start creating the riches in your work and life you deserve.