Partner Leadership - Tap into Intrinsic Motivators for Employee Engagement with Joy Meserve

As a leader, are you working to find ways to elevate your employee engagement, to really increase their motivation, their contribution, their productivity and effectiveness, but also the value that they're bringing to the business? Well, according to our guest Joy Maserve, from Gen Z to millennials to Gen X, burnout is at an all-time high, which is leading to record numbers of women leaving the workforce to strike out on their own. But also in a post-COVID world, many woke up and decided they wanted a more fulfilling life at home and at work. So we're going to dive into and help you understand why it's critical for leaders to know why humans do what they do, not only to engage your employees, but to have creativity, innovation, and ultimately, a profitable company. We'll also discuss the fact that people are intrinsically motivated by mastery, autonomy, and purpose. So we will discuss ways to help you give others ownership over projects that pay— play to their strengths, challenge them, and recognize them, ultimately leading to more happy, satisfied, and valuable employees. So stay with us. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Joy, how are you?

Good. So excited to be here.

I'm excited to have you because first off, your name just makes me want to just like, you know, just smile. It just is such a wonderful you know, wonderful name. And it brings about a wonderful, wonderful emotion. So I thank you for that.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm finally leaning into it.

So, oh, is that right? Okay. Well, before we get into this very intriguing conversation, I must say, around partner leadership, help us, our viewers and listeners really understand joy first so they can connect and relate with you.

Of course, of course. So I live in Los Angeles, California. Um, I'm a mom of two teens, uh, 14, um, and 17. One's heading off to college next year, so we're in the waiting to find out phase now that he's applied to 20 schools. That was a feat. Um, and yeah, as far as hobbies go, um, I really love playing piano. And I'm, I'm a late bloomer when it comes to piano. So I, I learned when I was 5 and 6, and when I was 40 years old, I got a piano for my kids to play on in hopes that, you know, they would learn. And they kind of, yes and no, a little bit, they're learning. And, uh, but I'm the one that fell in love with it. And so I begged my mom to teach me and to relearn it. And so it 40 years old, I said, I'm gonna learn piano and I just need to play Moonlight Sonata. Um, and so yeah, so I can play Moonlight Sonata and beyond. Oh, really? And figure out music. Um, certainly I'm not a pianist by any standard of that word, but I love it. It's so much fun.

Yeah, I can imagine. And I, I'm going to correct you because I learned this when I was writing my book and my screenplays. I would, I'd be like, I'm not really a writer, I'm not a screenwriter. And people are like you're writing, you're a writer. So you're playing the piano, you're a pianist.

Oh, okay.

Yes, yes, I will take that from you, Bernadette. And it's a beautiful— the piano, I never had, I never had the, the ability, um, but the piano was in our family with my mother and a couple of my sisters, and it's a beautiful instrument. So hey, it's never too late, it's never too late to, to start something.

That's what I'm saying. Never too late to learn. And I'm self-taught. And I actually enjoy that part, right? Oh, the idea of figuring it out for myself.

Nice. Nice. Very nice. Well, let's get into this conversation around partner leadership because I'm extremely intrigued. So first off, how do you define and what's your view on partner leadership?

Yeah, partner leadership is about— at its crux, it is about tapping into the intrinsic motivation, our internal drive of our employees in order to engage them, in order to motivate them, in order to give them more fulfillment and joy at work. And so it's really about observation. At the bottom level of it, it's about as a leader, we have folks, we get people that are gifts to us. If you're in charge of 4 direct reports, those are 4 gifts in your care. And we want to sink into observing them and figuring out what they really love to do. What are their strengths? And then figure out a way to create that for them at work, giving them ownership and autonomy so they can move toward mastery of that thing that they love. While they're at work.

Yeah, well, I just love that, that they are gifts to us. I don't know how many leaders or so-called leaders really view their employees in such a way. Yes, you've heard, you know, that you hear the term, people are our number one asset.

Yes.

But at the same time, you know, I think that's kind of gotten used and abused over the decades. And yet I love that Gifts. Employees are gifts. Absolutely love that. So can I look at partner leadership too, in, in a way of, as a leader, you are partnering to really understand your employee one-on-one, and then as a collective, where then you're, like you said, you're leveraging all the intrinsic motivators that would make that employee as productive as possible.

You got it. Well said.

Love that. So partner leadership.

Absolutely.

Well, I love that. And you mentioned a couple of things in that, in regards to employee engagement. What are you finding to be the biggest challenges today with employee engagement to where you, you, you know, you're looking to shift, you know, leaders' mindsets to this partnering leadership of you. What are the challenges?

Yeah, so the challenges are, you know, we're finding more than ever studies are coming out saying people are less engaged than ever. And so, you know, there's a lot of, um, you know, finger-pointing at remote work being responsible for that. And I say no, it's absolutely not the case. I managed a remote team for over 20 years So I know that it's possible to engage those folks on a level that brings them joy and fulfillment while working. And so there's definitely different tactics and things you can do to pull that out. But in a nutshell, it's not that. It's, it's making sure that people are feeling seen, heard, and valued for their contributions. It's making sure that people have work. Not all of it. Doesn't have to be 100% of their job. Doesn't have to be something that really fills them up. But some portion of their job, I'd say a good 50% of their job should be working on things that they enjoy working on that really play to their strengths.

Right. And if, if a so-called leader did their job when placing that individual or hiring them, they would have put them in a role that leverages all of those skills and all those talents and what they really love working on, right?

Sure, sure, that could be the case. But I always find, even if that's the case, they're put in that role, there's more, there's more that they could be doing that contributes to the company at a larger level. And so I think leaders tend to think small. Stay in your role, do your job. In fact, I heard an executive woman say that over dinner. Um, I just wish people would stay in their lane. And I just kind of went, ah, no, you know, like, that is, that is the, the opposite, because there's so much more, um, that they could do. Think of all the innovation and the creativity that we want in business.

Sure.

And, and how much more their ideas, their opinions, that it's like a wonderful gift if they say, hey, um, what do you think about, what if we shift this, there's a problem here. 'Thank you for bringing that up, for seeing it, for observing it. I'd love for you to spearhead that.' Yes.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that would just bring someone so much fulfillment and, and pride in themselves that they're being recognized in, in being handed something, um, new, challenging, a stretch. But I do want to ask you, before we get too far in off of the remote comment that you made. Are— have you found that managers are using being remote as an excuse for not doing the work and not intentionally focusing on how best to leverage their employees? Is it an easy out for them?

It absolutely is. And, and what that does when they say, uh, we need to bring everybody in the office at least 3 times a week, I want to see them badge in, This is common, especially at our larger companies that we all, as businesses, you look up to the Amazons, the Googles, and the Metas of the world as companies that we should emulate to grow.

Right?

But what they're doing is saying you have to do this. And that creates this new resistance. You're making me do something. You just took away my autonomy. You just took away my freedom of choice, right? And that right there, autonomy, freedom, is one of our key motivators as humans. So if you want to talk intrinsic motivation, we need autonomy. And, and that's also just a huge signal. Guess what it says? We don't trust you.

Well, I'm so glad you said that because that was going to be my question. So why are they doing this? Is it because they don't trust them, and therefore, that's the signal they're putting out? Or is there other reasons behind it?

I mean, I think I empathize with leaders who are saying, "Hey, we're not hitting our goals. Something is off." And they can't quite figure it out. And so, they're thinking it's this. So, I empathize with them. But it's sort of the straw man argument. And so, they are pointing to it and We're losing our way, right? Because people want to be in control of their own environment, their own workday, who they work with, when they work on the things, the tasks that they put in front of themselves. And they also want ownership over that. And they want ownership over big things that contribute to the company. I think I lost my way with your question. But—

No, no, no, that was perfect. No, no, no, that was absolutely exactly what I wanted to better understand. And do you also find, you know, you mentioned control, looking at it as that the scale of Amazon, the company versus individual leaders, it can get kind of overwhelming. But do you all— do you find that there are leaders or so-called leaders who also want to control and don't trust their individuals? So even if they had the flexibility of being hybrid or remote, given that autonomy, given them that freedom, they, they still kind of fight it themselves and kind of create their own rules of, no, you have to be in here because I want to control it.

I think it's the control versus the trust. I really do. I don't think they're intentionally saying, I don't trust you, but they're trying to figure out how to control the outcome, how to, you know, change something up to make something better. And it is really interesting suggesting that for some reason, we're less engaged. But I think the focus has come off the employee's health, wellness, the employee's ownership and responsibility and contributions to the company, and instead gone on the, "We need to make this much money by, you know, this time. We've got to hit this goal of X million. We've got to launch this new product. We've got to do all these things." And what I want to say to leaders is, Those are all great goals for your company. I'm not saying don't have those goals. I'm saying at the foundation, the foundation level are those gifts. It's your people. And you need to make sure they're feeling engaged to do your activities, to do your goals, to bring their ideas, to bring their creativity and their innovation to the cause.

Yeah. So what would you say to that control freak of an individual manager? What would you coach them and provide them guidance to even, you know, do one thing to start kind of letting, you know, letting those employees in, so to speak? What could they be doing and thinking about? Yeah.

So I don't like the word delegation because I think it's got a bad rap. Delegation. I think when people think of delegation, they think of somebody's just laying something on me that they don't want to do. You'll see it in the Eisenhower Grid, right? It's like move something off your plate, delegate it to someone else, right? But what I'm talking about is different. That's where the partnership comes in. That's where being a partner leader is different. It's saying, hey, here's this opportunity. I think you'd be perfect for it. A, it plays to your strengths. B, I believe in you. I believe that you can do this because I've seen all this evidence. Here's that evidence. So do you want to do it? It's choice. Oh, you do want to do it. Great. That's wonderful. Okay. So here's how it's going to go. This is the expectation. Provide so much clarity that they are clear with what the mission and goal is. But you are not doing this, right? You're the leader, and ultimately it's your responsibility. You are the one in charge, right? So what are you gonna do? You're gonna partner with them for success. You're gonna say, okay, let's check in. We're supposed to be checking in weekly with our people anyway, so I'm not adding more work to your plate, I promise. Right, right, right. In those weekly check-ins, this is what you talk about rather than, you know, how was their kid's baseball game? You talk about, okay, let's talk about this project that you're working on. Do you have any blockers, obstacles? Do you need more resources? What can I do to help? Because you're there to help them succeed. Right. You're the one to bounce ideas off of. They can ask you any questions, right? And you're a safe place for them to land. If they want to vent about something, fine. But you tell them you have 3 minutes for that venting session.

Yeah, true. No, that's awesome.

Yeah, you know, yeah, it's okay. Vent for 3 minutes, go.

Right.

You know, and then after that, here's the other key. So once they've done this wonderful thing, not only is it about recognizing them with specifics and saying, here's what I love that you're doing now, here's what I love that you did then, and, and all of these things. Here's the impact that's had on the organization. Here's your contribution I'm seeing to the organization by all the stuff that you're doing. At the end of it all, it's saying, let's give you a moment to shine. We've got to put you in front of the team to show them what you've just done. We're going to put you in front of maybe the, the CEO to share this. It could be in front of the board of directors if we're managing higher-ups, right? So give them an opportunity to shine, right? It could be as simple— I'm not a super fan, but it could be as simple as an email that goes out to the all, you know, all company email that says like, here's what this person did, they're phenomenal, right? I really appreciate them and here's why. But, but more importantly, it's a face-to-face interaction somewhere along the line, Zoom to Zoom. Bye.

Right. So is that why you don't like email? Is because you'd like it to be more face-to-face?

Yeah. Yeah. So that person can really experience that in the moment. Although I will say, you know, emails are powerful in terms of you can go back and look at that email at any time and say, like, look at what somebody wrote about me. I want to— what did they say again? You know, I used to keep a, like, a gratitude folder of, you know. Yeah, right. Something you could go back to at any time and feel good about yourself.

Yeah, no, I love that. And I love the safe place to land. That's what leaders should be, is a safe place to land. And so many of what— so many of the points you're bringing up sound so simple, right?

Yeah.

And they sound so logical.

Yeah.

And what, what do you find to be the biggest reason— and I'm being nice because I'd like to say excuse, which I will— that they don't fulfill this simple recommendation that you're making?

Yeah, I mean, we don't know what we don't know. Yes, it sounds simple, right? But I had to learn these things along the way. You know, it took me a long time to kind of learn what the style of leadership was, to sort of codify it. And then also I think it's busyness. I think it's just they, our leaders, are feeling overwhelmed, stressed. That big monetary goal we were talking about is on their shoulders, resting on it, and they're the ones that are supposed to make this happen, right? So it's so much pressure right now in corporate America, and that's why I see a lot of women leading— but I will— leaving. But I will say, um, it, it can be different. And that's the other difference. People ask me, what's the difference between partner leadership and servant leadership, right? Servant leadership does believe in people's growth and all of those things. But I don't believe it needs to come at the expense of that leader. We— I think servant leadership automatically, again, it's a word that I think is We've had enough of this, right? We've had enough of the word delegation. We've had enough of the word servant leadership because immediately your mind goes to, I as the leader should be pushing hard. Yeah, right. I've got to do all these things. I have a list of shoulds. I have a stack of books. I have all these people that I'm responsible for. And you stop taking care of yourself at total sacrifice of your mental health, and your well-being.

Yeah, I will agree. It actually takes my breath away. It exasperates me when I hear it, with the obligation that comes with it, let alone the actual level of activity.

Exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of doing, but there's also a lot of feeling as a leader that there's so much on your shoulders. And so I'm also saying to these partner leaders, if you're learning to be a partner leader, you also need to take care of yourself. It's the whole put your oxygen mask on first, right, before you help someone else.

Yeah, love it. Absolutely love it. Now, you mentioned women leaving corporate. Help us understand that a little bit more. What is causing it? Where are they going? And what is the impact on, you know, the team dynamic and the overall success of a business when we're losing our women?

We are. And, and I can only say this from anecdotal experience, but I am a member of Chief. It's a group of executive women. It's a very large network of 20,000 women. And so many of the women who come into Chief start as that C-level or VP and then give it a year or two and they're starting their own businesses. They're going off on their own to be consultants. They're just leaving that corporate America environment. And so it's a huge, it's a tremendous loss.

Due to what though? Why is it that they're choosing to leave after only just a year and a half or whatever timeframe?

I think it's the sacrifice. It's the sacrifice that they've given to the company. It's the pressure. It's the constant, you know, I felt it too. So those are not foreign feelings for me and is part of the reason that I said, you know, maybe it's time for me to go do my own thing where I can take care of myself while also playing into my own strengths. So I'm sort of applying my own leadership philosophies to myself.

Sure. No. Well, that's the best way, right, to prove it out, then to leverage it, as you said, anecdotally. Um, and yes, absolutely. And it is a shame that, um, that the women, you know, aren't able to find that balance. They aren't able to find that footing, I, I guess I'll call it, um, in— because we need them in those prominent roles. Uh, but at the same time, you, you also— I had read that you also really work to address the fact that since the pandemic, which I really never like to use the P word or the C word, but since that time period, you know, people's goals have changed, you know, their, their idea of value and worth and what's important and their priorities shifted dramatically, not, not simply, but dramatically. Is that also what's feeding into what you're finding?

I would, I think that's a great theory and I share it. I think that's part of it. We did, everybody, men and women did a huge reevaluation of what's most important to us. We, we had this time to figure it out. We had not just a little fear. We had a huge threat, you know, to us, to our family, to our friends, um, to our businesses. It was coming for us. And so whether or not you saw it as a little threat or a big threat, it's still made people pause and think, okay, life is pretty fragile. And, you know, death— even if you thought COVID was not a big threat to society, you saw people dying, you know. And I know I lost my own father in the pandemic.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I am so sorry.

It was 2020, right before the vaccines came out. And I know he would have been first in line. It was November, vaccines came out in December. Um, so it was a huge, you know, shock. Um, and, and I do think that's part of what led me to, um, find community, find new groups that we're talking about, you know, why are we here? What are we doing with our lives that is meaningful and impactful?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because we, we can tend to get so tunnel visioned and so deeply entrenched in just struggling through the day and thinking that's okay, that, you know, we needed that reprieve, you know, we need that time to just go, what the hell have I been doing to myself? For some people, 5 years, others for like 25 years. Uh, you know, something's got to give, something, you know, has definitely got it, got a shift. Although I will say that for any of those, uh, you know, listening or watching, Entrepreneurship is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But trust me, you know, and I'm sure, Joy, you can attest, it's not easy. You know, the hours are probably just as much, if you know, if not more at times. So it's not easy, but it is a wonderful thing.

Yeah, I 100% agree. I've been on this journey for a year now. And, you know, I thought it would be easier than it is. Let's just say that.

Oh, yeah. I've been 14, 14 years. Oh, um, and, uh, trust me when I say I've earned still being here 14 years later with the amount of work and, and hours and stress, uh, that went into it. But it, but it is so, it is so worth it. Um, all right, so I wanted to ask you, you've been using some terms and of course they sound, um, very, um common, uh, but yeah, when it comes to leadership, specifically partner leadership that we're talking about, I'd like for you to go into them a little bit more, and that's mastery, autonomy, and purpose.

Sure.

So how do they all come together to really, you know, kind of serve partner leadership?

So if you read any of, uh, well, Dan Pink has a wonderful book that I will recommend. It's called Drive.. And you will do a deep dive on autonomy, mastery, and purpose. But I think the connection that I'm making is that when you provide true ownership to people in the workplace, you are owning this from soup to nuts, from A to Z. Or it could be something small. It doesn't have to be something huge, but you're owning it. People find, OK, I'm working toward mastery by doing this project. This is helping me get there. And when you give them ownership, what comes with it? Autonomy. And autonomy is our 4 Ts, right? So you're going to give them choice over their tasks, their time, their techniques, and their team.

Love that.

Can you give them autonomy over the team 100% of the time? No, right? They're not necessarily always going out to hire people. But think about this as far as team. Can they pick somebody they want to work with? On this project. That's choice over team, right? And so all of those things add up. And when we're talking about purpose, once you add all of this up, I always say you don't need to be working in a company that's curing cancer or solving climate change, right? You just need to feel your contributions matter. To the organization. That is your purpose. Yeah.

No, I love that. I so love— and you made it so simple and powerful, uh, and, and understandable to be able to implement, right? Because that's what it's all about, right, is learn these concepts, everyone, and, you know, heed her advice, but then go and act on them and find You know, you don't have to do it all at once. You know, you don't have to do all your employees all at once, but just start. And, you know, I always say that small steps lead to big results. And yeah, and it would be amazing the result that they will find. And what are some examples of some of the impact, the value, the results that you've seen for individuals, maybe teams, maybe the businesses as a whole?

Yeah, yeah. So, um, just going back into my 22 years of experience, I'll, I'll leave their names out, but, um, but yeah, one, one employee was, was really struggling with management and she was in a management role. This role was multifaceted though. It had so many other things, assets to, or parts to it, and I saw that she shined in all the other parts but the one-on-one management for her people. And there were folks who were ready to give up on her. And I was like, ah, hang on. She's so valuable in this way, in this way, with details, with project management. We need to give her something that actually really plays to those strengths. And so she kind of stumbled through trying to upskill as a manager. And she did get better. But once we found the job for her and the company, could you please project manage all of our online courses? She's now in her best job ever. She's living her best life. She's actually managing, if you will, one of our VPs and making sure he's on time and delivering.

Has she, has she mastered the one-on-ones? Just yet.

Yeah, I mean, I think she's, she's doing it in her own way, right? The way that plays to all of her strengths. So I love that example. And then I'll just give you one more of somebody coming up through the ranks. Um, you know, I noticed they were a tremendous, um, verbal communicator when they started, so I slipped them something and I said, hey, would you review this pamphlet? I just want to get your insights. And so she took this and she gave really great feedback, like incredible. And I was like, oh yay, I think I found another content writer for the team. I was getting really excited. So I'm like, well, what else can I have her do? Okay, she's gonna join the committee, a group of people, nice safe place for her to work on these skills, right? More content, taking on a bigger thing with our staff training. The next year, um, she did that again, but then the next year after that it was Could you lead the whole thing?

Oh, wow.

Would you take this, all of it, from soup to nuts, manage the team, manage the committee, manage the output, and make sure it's really a success? And she did phenomenally. She really came into her own. And here's the thing, is along the way, people are starting to notice, like, okay, wow, she's really good at that. Aha, I'm seeing her as a leader. I see her as somebody I can go to. Fast forward to when a promotion opened up, guess who got it? Right. And so, and it's, this is a long game, right? This is not like a short-term fix. These are long-game ways to really create a workplace culture where people are feeling recognized. They're feeling purpose. Right? They're driven by their own internal wants and desires to do well for the business. And that's how businesses thrive. When you have people who are giving you everything they've got, then the business thrives. Right? So—

And I'll go back to something that you said at the very, very beginning. It's allowing that individual to recognize that their manager sees them as a gift. Gift, because you started this conversation, you know, with they are gifts to us, which I absolutely love. If every, you know, manager out there could really see their employees in that way, that's beautiful. So do you have one— this conversation has been tremendous— do you have one other tip that you can leave our listeners and viewers with that they could start acting on right now?

Sure. I'm just going to say slow down. And I'm not asking you to slow down a ton, but I'm asking you to be intentional with each interaction with your team. Right. And slow down to really, instead of just saying thank you in that email that you were, you were just going to pass off that email and be like, okay, good. Something else is checked off the list.

Right.

Slow down. Be intentional. Really be specific about what you loved. Tell them the impact that, that what they've done has had. And then tell them, this is awesome. I see big things for you, right? That's it. It's just two simple things. Here's what I observed that you did. Here's what I loved about it and the impact it's going to have. And that's it. But that's what you're slowing down for is really creating more gratitude in the air, right? And once You start doing that, I guarantee your people will start doing it because they'll see you do it.

So yeah, love that. The modeling. I love that. Not to underemphasize that because that's exactly what it is. Modeling. Lead by example, people. Lead by example. Joy, you have brought me such joy today. I am so appreciative of this conversation. It's been fabulous. Yes.

Great. I've really enjoyed it too. I hope we get to chat again sometime.

Me too. Thank you so much for being part of the program. I absolutely love this conversation with Joy, Joy Miserve of Leading with Joy. What a powerhouse. I loved from the very beginning of our conversation when she mentioned that leaders need to look at their employees as gifts. Her quote basically is, they are gifts to us. At the same time, she went on to say what is causing leaders not to view their employees that way and what they could do to overcome that in order to get the most and the best out of their employees. So what did you take away from the conversation with Joy? What tips or strategies will you start implementing so you can become a partner leader with a focus on your employees. I would love to support you in any way possible. So if you have questions beyond this discussion around how to be that powerhouse leader that you're meant to be, then feel free to book a call with me. Go to coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall and allow me to give you some tips and strategies as well to really amp up and enrich your leadership style. I am so honored that you are here with us this week, and I'll look forward to having you for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye!