Real Leaders Communicate Differently

When was the last time you avoided a tough conversation simply because you weren't sure how to say what needed to be said? If you're leading at any level of an organization, conflict is unavoidable, but how you communicate in those moments is what sets apart great leaders. Welcome to Shading the Corporate Bitch, the show where bold leadership meets real-world challenges. I'm Bernadette Boas, your host, and today we're diving into a powerful truth. Great leaders communicate differently, especially in conflict. If you're a corporate leader, you've likely faced the tension of leading through difficult conversations, whether that's delivering tough feedback, navigating team dynamics, or managing competing priorities. And when the pressure rises, communication often becomes reactive. Unclear, or emotionally charged. That's where our guest comes in. Dr. Amber Johnson is a leadership consultant, coach, and expert in high-stakes communication. Her work has been featured in Forbes, Psychology Today, and Smart Brief, and she's here to break down what separates good leaders from great ones, especially when things get uncomfortable. In this episode, we'll explore why communication often fails in conflict and how to fix it, how to lead with emotional intelligence versus ego, and the power of asking better questions over giving quick answers. Lastly, how internal communication can transform your leadership and your team culture. By the end of this conversation, you'll have actionable tools to use to lead with clarity, connection, and confidence, even when the stakes are high.

Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms today's managers into tomorrow's powerhouse leaders. Your host, Bernadette Boas, executive coach and author, brings you into a world where the corporate grind meets personal growth and success in each and every episode. With more than 25 years in corporate trenches, Bernadette's own journey from being dismissed as a tyrant boss to becoming a sought-after leadership coach and speaker illustrates the very essence of transformation that she now inspires in others with her tips, strategies, and stories. So if you're ready to shed the bitches of fear and insecurity, ditch the imposter syndrome, and step into the role of the powerhouse leader you were born to be, this podcast is for you. Let's do this.

Amber, welcome, welcome, welcome. How are you?

I am great. So good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Oh, absolutely. And because I absolutely love any topic that has to do with communication and conflict, because I just think so many professionals struggle with just how to engage as opposed to create conflict through their communications. But before we do, before we dive into our topic, could you share a little bit for our guests, a little bit about Amber?

Yeah, absolutely. I am based out of Chicago. For your folks that are watching instead of just listening, you're seeing my basement and I am a leadership consultant and communications expert, but more importantly, I get a chance to practice this stuff all the time because I'm a mom of 2 teenagers. My oldest goes to college this fall. I've been married for almost 25 years, and I'm, like many of us, part of a community that doesn't always see things the same way. So I'm continually practicing the things that I try to teach. And in my free time, I'm a big outdoor person. We have a great park district nearby and just love the chance to get outside and be in it. And I find that it's good for my conflict capacity to have had a little time outside each day.

Isn't that the truth? Sanity, even if it's 5-minute breaks, I find that it just brings all the calm that I need after a busy, crazy day.

Absolutely. It settles the nervous system.

It certainly, certainly does. Well, speaking of which, because we definitely want to find those tips and strategies to help people become and go into communications with others, especially in times of conflict, in a very easy, engaging, connective way. So why do you think so many leaders really struggle with their communications, whether it is conflict or not? What is it about communication that is so trying for so many people?

Well, I don't think it is what is it, that would imply one thing, and I think it's like a host of things that makes communication tough. I mean, for many of us, we grew up in a culture that taught us to be nice and that being nice was more important than being clear or being direct. So that's always a challenge that many of us are facing. Another real challenge, I think, is just how busy we all are. We spend all day communicating, but so little time actually connecting, and therefore we go into even important conversations sometimes without any real plan. Plan for it, and then we wonder why it doesn't go well. Or we wonder why we missed telling our colleague about an important meeting that was coming up or a change to our project plan. And it's honestly because we're just so busy, we don't have time to stop and think through things. So those are two of the real big challenges, I think, to being stronger communicators.

I think those are two factors that we could go deep into. So I'm going to start with the busyness and the comment you made about we don't have a plan. And some people will say, well, I run into a situation where I don't necessarily have time to sit down and make a plan as opposed to something that is pre-organized, pre-scheduled. What do you suggest that they do in order to ensure that that engagement is as effective as possible and doesn't go off the rails?

Yeah, I have two responses to that. Maybe you're familiar with that old saying that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is today. And I think when it comes to being a stronger communicator, the best thing we can do is do our work in advance. And when we hit a moment where we need to respond now, then there are some things we can do there. So in advance, we can really work on who we want to be in leadership. Knowing that we want to be humble, or knowing that we want to be clear and direct but kind, not nice necessarily, because nice is a performance, but kindness is a sincere concern for people. So we can do some of our own values work, some of our own emotional intelligence work, to control who we are and be ready for those situations we're going to walk into. We can do some of our scenario planning, so when we hit the unexpected, at least we've, we, we road tested an idea that was 75% of what we're hitting and we're ready for it. That's some of the work you can do in advance. And then when you hit the moment, I think what we think we have to do is to keep going through the moment because there's a 2 o'clock meeting and then a 3 o'clock meeting and the schedule is relentless. But if it's a real moment, if it's a serious moment where people's emotions are heightened in whatever way, where the decisions have significance, It is so much better to say, let's slow this down. I can tell this is an important topic. We may need more time. We may just need 5 minutes to take our, to catch our breath. Maybe you want to take a second and get your thoughts together. I'll think about what's most important to me. We'll come back to the conversation. I think for some reason we think we just have to keep pushing through, pushing through, pushing through, and we fail to take the breath. Sometimes it's even just a breath that we need to get ourselves together.

No, I think that that is so critical to actually do that pause, because wouldn't you say we're— we ultimately want any type of conflict to be a win-win, to where we walk away and, you know, we're good with it. We might not even have gotten the right decision or the, or the right thing that we wanted, but at the same time It was a productive conversation. So, and we agreed to disagree maybe, or we, you know, solved the problem. So you mentioned about practicing scenarios and also with your tree analogy, you know, about the fact that the best time to have planted a tree was 20 years ago. What are those things that you suggest to individuals to really start working on practicing, getting training on as they go through their career is what I assume you're saying. So they are prepared and they can work to deal with various scenarios that might come up.

Yeah, there are so many things we can be working on and they're going to be different. What you need will be different than what I need. We have to begin by working on having a choice, having a clear opinion. And sometimes I will say it just starts with like knowing what you want for supper. And being able to tell your partner, this is what I want for supper, instead of when they ask, what do you want? Say, no, I don't know, whatever you want. And so learning to have a decisiveness to your, to your approach to life. I think that's a great place to start. And you can also learn how to express an opinion without insisting that everybody adhere to it. You know, so that's a next step is how do I state my preference, but not put it as a demand for the rest of the organization to open conversation. For the topic, whether it's what to have for dinner or which business model is going to work best for this choice. After we've sort of worked on our own decisiveness, then we can also work on our own willingness to speak up. How in a meeting can we feel the confidence to speak up? The next layer of leadership, I'm beginning to form my opinions, but I'm scared to put them out there because what if I'm wrong? What if I'm missing some important piece?. And there are a lot of different ways to move through that. One of the easiest first steps is to put an idea out there as a question. What would it look like to consider this through the lens of such and such? Or what does this decision, how would it impact another thing? So that way you don't even have to state your opinion. You just get to put a question on the table that you think matters. And I find that's a great way to step into voicing your opinion, putting, putting ideas out there.

I do want to ask you about what you just said regarding the question. So you are big, from what I understand, around asking questions, just not— I'll call it spewing advice or telling people what to do or how to do it or what your opinion is. So why is asking questions so powerful and effective when it comes to really building bridges and having really strong collaboration with others?

There's so much research on the value of questions. We learn better by asking questions than we do by having information just presented to us. So engaging with a topic around questions will help you learn better. People will actually see you smart— as smarter when you ask questions. We think it's the opposite. We think it— that if I ask a question, I'm going to be seen as not knowing something, and people will think that I'm dumb or ignorant. And instead, when we ask a question, people actually feel affirmed by that. They feel like, oh, I had that question too, and I was just waiting on it. Or maybe they might also feel, you know, you might feel, oh, Amber asked me that question. She thinks I'm an expert. How smart of her to realize that, you know? So it affirms other people as well. We also know that questions make you more likable. And we know this from speed dating research, that the people that ask more questions are better liked by the people they're matched with. And in long-term relationships, long-term business partnerships too, we know that it helps us understand people. And often it's that lack of understanding that creates a real problem in relationships, whether that's at work or at home. So for all those reasons, we've got to be asking more questions. And it also takes the burden off the leader. You don't have to have all the answers all the time. You just have to facilitate the conversation until you can get to the answers.

And would you find that one of the biggest breakdowns or struggles leaders have is the fact that they always think they have to be the one talking or leading the conversation when actually they could be sitting back, maybe starting a question and letting the room form the dialogue.

If it's all your idea, why bother having a meeting at all? Right? Take it off my schedule. Let me, let me take the afternoon off. Why have the meeting? If you don't have the kind of people you can bring around the table and get their heads together and actually end someplace that's a little unexpected but richer and deeper than you imagined, then you've got the wrong team. Or you're not leading them the right way. You're not making it safe for them to talk up. And so that's just such a vital part of leadership is creating a space for the dialogue to happen.

I would think when you were talking about planning, and busyness and avoidance. Where does intention come into play? Because that's what kept popping up for me, is individuals have to be intentional about their words and what it is that they want to talk about and how they want to talk about it. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah, I have to— you have to be intentional about the sort of leader you want to be. So I want to be a leader that makes it safe for my people to speak up. I want to be a leader that doesn't miss a good idea because I failed to ask a question. I want to be a good leader who takes feedback well and doesn't get defensive, who asks for feedback. There are all of these intentionalities around your leadership that you can start by creating in yourself, finding whatever means of memory helps you hold that in front of you as you go about your day. And then I think you have to also be intentional about individual conversations. Every single conversation is an opportunity to create a relationship, to deepen the relationship. There's a story in Susan Scott's book, Fierce Conversations, that I retell all the time. It starts with a poem or something from the poet David Whyte. And he tells this story of a young couple that's newly married. And it feels like every week the wife wants to have another conversation. How are we doing? Is this working for you? What do you need from me? What do I need from you? And, and the young husband just rolls his eyes and sort of laments, "I wish we could just have one conversation and have it be done with and not have to have this conversation over and over and over." And Scott says in her book that you can't, because the conversation is the relationship. They are the same thing. The conversation is the relationship. And when you can't talk about things, your relationship has boundaries and limits that are going to define and limit its growth. And this is a, obviously that's a romantic relationship story, but I think it's so true. I think the conversation is our leadership. I think the conversation is our culture. The conversation is our organization. And if we can't talk about things, if there are things that aren't safe to say, opinions that aren't safe to hold, questions that aren't safe to ask, if there are voices that are not heard in that process, then the leadership, the organization, the culture is limited. By those things because it is the conversation.

That's beautiful, by the way. At the same time, what started triggering me is I often will hear that employees don't feel comfortable. They won't often use the word safe, but they don't feel comfortable sharing their true opinion and their true experience that they're having. While at the same time their manager/leader is, "Oh, I have an open-door policy. I am very much an open book, and they know that they can come to me." So what signs are they missing? What signs are they missing from their own people to where there's just such a contrast and a conflicting view on reality there?

When one of my coaching clients says that to me, I have an open door. They know they could come to me if they had anything. I say, okay, when was the last time somebody brought you a hard piece of feedback about yourself? Not about sales numbers necessarily, or, you know, pipeline numbers or manufacturing quotas or anything, because those are hard to hide. There's a dashboard that's watching that for us. But when was the last time somebody brought you some feedback about the way you lead? And if it wasn't in the last month, then there is something that is keeping that open door closed, metaphorically at least. And then we have to figure out what it is. What is standing in our way? Sometimes it's your reaction to feedback, and your intentionality in your reactions is so essential. Sometimes it is— sometimes it's your reaction and feedback, and sometimes it's Something else, like a culture that's really focused on perfectionism rather than on learning. And so if I can't— if somebody can't do it perfectly, then they can't admit to this, instead of being a learning organization where knowing more today than we knew yesterday is a win. There's all sorts of reasons that it may be happening. Maybe it's because you've never asked for feedback, and so the open door you thought was implied has never been made explicit. Maybe it's because you, someone brought you some feedback and then you went and said to another colleague, did you hear this? He's wrong, right? I mean, which is how you're talking about others in the organization and what is shared and how open you are. So there's all sorts of things that could be rude at it, and it is different for each person, but there's, those are some good places to start looking.

And how would an employee of a leader who is not being intentional, he's not even, he or she is not self-aware. How can they help to bring the mirror up a little bit and allow that individual to see what reality is?

Yeah, I'm going to be realistic and say that that is a hard thing to do, particularly if you have a very reactionary or retaliatory sort of leader. And so I'm going to give advice for somebody when we think we're working with a leader who maybe lacks self-awareness, but is actually a good soul at heart. You know, we think they have their best intentions, because I don't want to send somebody into a dangerous situation. But let's assume we think this person means well. They do probably think they're being more open than they are. How could we give that message? And then I think it's a matter of you have to lead up. And you have to have the courage to say, I want you to know, your intentions might have been this, but this was the impact you got. And because I know you're interested in impact, you're interested in results, you're outcome-driven, I want you to know, I don't think you're having the impact you want because of the way you responded here. Can I share a little feedback? Can I give you a few examples? Let's talk about what it would look like to be different. And that takes courage and boldness to do up, to lead up in an organization that way. But framing it as, what is the, your intention? I see the goodness in your intention. Your impact is different. It sometimes helps people hear it.

I can't let it go that there are employees that have difficult bosses. What advice do you give them then if it's not to confronted on their own, what should their next steps be?

One of the things you can do is instead of talking about what you don't want, talk about what you do want. So instead of saying, "I need you to calm down," you might say something like, "I find our team really responds well to when we talk about the future and to when you share your vision and when you ask questions of the team." So you can kind of try to prompt them with the behaviors you think might be helpful. And hope that that overrides over time. You can also find somebody in the organization who could speak to them. Do you have a, one of, do you have a mentorship relationship with somebody who's at a peer level to your difficult boss? Could you ask for their, their advice? Could there be a way that there could be a little guidance or a little conversation at the peer level that you could prompt and inform without, without overstepping boundaries too much?

Right, right, right. Okay.

Yeah.

Because only to, to be fair to both sides, because we'd love to think that we do have our, you know, very intentional, but maybe they slip up type of managers. But a lot of cases that, no, our managers are very difficult to see themselves clearly. And they need to figure out because their, their experience they're having is trying. And talk about conflict.

Yeah.

So, okay. So getting back to conflict for a moment, what makes conversations that might have even started off at a, at a good even tempo, what makes them go sideways to where conflict's created even within that discussion?

When we stop making it about the problem or the task and we start making it about the person. That's where things start to go sideways, I think. And Crucial Conversations, the folks that wrote that book, they have a great acronym, the CPR. So it's first about the content. When we don't tackle a problem at the content level, it becomes a pattern. And that pattern then puts the relationship at risk, the reputation at risk. And so you've gotta always try to tackle the challenge when it really is just about the content. There's another TEDx talk that I love that he talks about confronting things as if it's got something in your teeth. Like if I went like this and you took my cue and you, you know, took your little piece of salad out of your front tooth, you would never think that I was trying to tell you you had bad dental hygiene. You would just think she's helping me out. So how do we tackle it when it's small enough? It's like that tiny piece of lettuce. And how do we receive it like I'm just helping a friend out? As opposed to, I'm being told there's something wrong with me.

Again, you don't want to put it on them or be attacking the other person. You just simply want to work together to identify what the problem is and to find that solution.

Absolutely. That is exactly right. And sometimes it helps, you know, name the problem, but then name what you do want. So instead of saying, you know, Bernadette, you're always a bottleneck in our processes, You could say, hey, Bernadette, you've missed the deadline a couple of times in a row. We need timely responses, and we need it because it matters for this whatever purpose it is. And so we quickly move from punishing the past to what we want for the future and why it matters. And I think that has a soothing effect. It's hard still to hear, I'm not gonna lie, but it does have a soothing effect in that you're saying our relationship continues. There is a next time. This isn't a damaging situation. I'm stopping it before it gets from pattern to relationship. And I'm telling you, I want the relationship for the future. I want your work in the future. This is what the future should look like.

When a relationship, whether it's employee to manager or manager with their peers, when it comes to feedback, how can you get the other person initially open to receiving it even before you open up your mouth?

It's a great question. And, and just like I said about the tree, some of that work has to be done further back. How do we create a culture that gives feedback regularly and that gives it in, in small enough chunks, small enough doses, that it's about the content and not about the pattern or the relationship? You catch it early. So part of it is the work that we do internally in the organization to create an environment. A lot of people recommend asking, "May I give you a piece of feedback?" I like to use a process I call Find It, Flip It, Elevate It. This is something I developed with a colleague, Jim Ludema, and we name the problem, which is the Find It. We flip it to what we do want, and then we elevate it to something that expresses why it matters to this other person. If you were a peer of mine and your work was you were behind on work a lot, you know, name the problem. I tell you what I do when I, I need timely, timely service. And then I would tell you why it matters, because we know we need to meet these quarterly goals, and when we do, our boss is going to be so much more happier with us, and it'll be just in time for our annual bonus consideration. So you name why it might matter to people too. And I think that process of helping people connect it to why it matters. And of course, the better you know the person, the more you can, you can appeal to them. Some people really want the respect of their colleagues. Some people really want more compensation. Some people really want to know that everything is going to work smoothly and they really want to get things done. Find whatever it is that matters and figure out how to elevate it to fit something that matters to the person.

So their motivations, their goals, their aspirations.

We're trying to move As soon as we've made it clear what the problem is, we want to move from the problem to the future. So people feel reassured. It helps defeat defensiveness in the process. The more we can focus on the future and on growth and frame it even as this is next level growth.

Do you find that there's different styles of individuals that need more so the blending of the negative and the positive? Versus just the positive?

Absolutely. And, you know, I have a good colleague I work with all the time. He always says, "Stab me in the front. I just, just come at me directly. Give it to me really clear." And, and I am different than that. You know, just personally, I will take feedback much better if I know that you also see me, see my contributions, value my contributions. And so I need feedback to come to me a little with a little more gentleness and a little more focus on the whole picture and how this piece of it helps me level up as opposed to fixing a mistake I've made.

Because I'm the type that I need it like your friend who's stabbing in the breast and point out how it's going to negatively impact me as much as it's going to benefit me. Because then I just start hyperventilating if, you know, if negative impact. But you're also saying you also need to know the— how the other person wants to receive information in order to then adapt that style and approach.

These are conversations we should have with the people we work with most closely. How do you like to receive feedback? Some people like to receive it and then have time to think about it, and other people are going to be, no, I'm pretty good with it. I can usually have the conversation about what comes next in that initial conversation. Others might need— I need to think about it over the weekend and come back to you with a plan.

Amber, have you come across though managers who, when push comes to shove, they really aren't in touch— maybe this goes back to the intentional— with the style and what each of their individual employees need, and that's what gets them off also in trouble is that they are working as if everyone operates the same and operates the way they operate. And therefore there's these conflicts that automatically are created because they're not being intentional about recognizing what each of their team members need.

The intentionless and the busyness, right? They aren't taking time to think through, but anybody who has kids or who grew up with siblings, you should know that even people in the same system, same family system, same work system can have extremely different personalities and approaches. And what worked for me did not work for my brother Patrick and vice versa. And, and the more we can take time to figure it out, we have to be fair. We don't want to violate any HR policies by having unfair treatment, but there's some range on how these conversations can happen differently and the intentionality slowing down long enough. To ask, how would Bernadette hear it? How would Amber hear it? How would Patrick hear it? And tailoring your conversation for the person you're talking with, I think, is a gift of leadership.

Now, I want to come back because I didn't have you address the avoidance. Avoidance. So what is it that causes leaders to avoid and how can you redirect them back?

Well, some people are aggressors, so there is the opposite. And if you are an aggressor, then take more intentionality. But if you were an avoider, you're probably doing it because you're afraid you're wrong, because you don't like to make anybody uncomfortable. I find a lot of people, especially in their first 1 or 2 levels of management, don't want to push more work to other people. They don't want to give more work to other people. And so they sort of hold off on, on giving feedback that's needed. Sometimes we avoid conversation because we really are— we're not sure it'll make a difference. We're not sure it'll have the impact we want. Sometimes we just don't want to ruffle feathers. Sometimes we're just tired. We're just tired, and it just seems easier to suck it up and take care of it ourselves or hope we can deal with it next time. And, you know, I'll be the first person to tell you, as a mother of teenagers, there are times where I think that probably needs to be addressed, but we brought this other thing that's more important, and I'm gonna put I'm going to put my conversation currency in this more important conversation right now, and that one can wait for next week. So it's not always bad to say, I am going to kick this can down the road to next week. But know your reasons for doing it. Have an intentional reason for doing it. And if you can't, you know, be true to yourself, your values, your ideals as a leader and move it down the road, then it means it's your comfort zone. Conversation to have, and now is probably the time.

Because there's no reason to be kicking it, and your avoidance does not allow it to go away, and you need to confront it.

It's just going to come back next time, and it's going to be a pattern. And if it comes back a time after that, it's not just the pattern, it's the person's reputation in the organization that is at risk.

Well, we could be talking about this forever because As you mentioned, communication is so vital, not only in our work life, but our home life. What would or could someone do, one of our corporate professionals right now, what would you suggest they start working on to then improve on really dealing with conflict and communication a lot more effective than maybe they are today?

I think first of all, work on yourself. Figure out what your hangups have been. Maybe ask a really trusted colleague, what are you seeing in me? What, how can I grow my own self-awareness of where I need to work? And find the resources for your particular objective, whether you need to be more bold, you need to speak up more, or whether you need to listen better and practice on your listening skills, whatever it is. So first, just start with yourself. And then second, go to your team. Say to your team, I've been thinking a lot about communi— how communication needs to improve. I want to work us through a process of setting some some communication norms, group norms for this group that works together all the time, and lead them through a process of setting some group norms, norms that help you practice listening, norms that help you practice speaking up, norms that handle emotions, that build trust and safety, that help you make decisions or determine how you're gonna make decisions, norms that establish this way of working. Get those on paper and then hold yourself and others accountable. To them. And you will find that then when you have those in the moment of crisis, you've got a foundation everybody's standing on. I know I should be able to expect this.

And I would think that foundation just gives a lot of confidence and stability that once they know kind of what the boundaries are and what the foundation is, they feel very confident and stable to where if things go awry, they can come back to that place and be OK and just continue moving forward. Would that be fair?

Absolutely. You know what kind of reaction you should expect from me when you bring feedback, or you know I will not tolerate someone being aggressive in a meeting. And because of that, it creates a lot of safety to speak up further.

Fantastic. Amber, this has been great. Thank you so much. But I want to Remind everyone, please go and check out Amber and the work that she does and how she might be able to support you and your team. You can go to amberajohnson.com to do that. Also follow her on LinkedIn, Amber A. Johnson. I love guests that make this really easy for everybody. And let me ask you to give 30 seconds to what is your Better Than Fine newsletter that you can also find at amberajohnson.com.

Substack.com.

Share with us a little bit about that.

Yeah, the name comes from how many times a day do we ask somebody, how are you? And what are the typical answers you get? Fine, fine, good, whatever.

Okay.

And so we want to learn as leaders and as parents and as partners in relationships to ask better questions and to be better engaged communicators. So my newsletter is designed to help you be a better leader, partner and parent through your communication in less than 5 minutes a week, and it's always free. So come join me there.

That's awesome, especially 5 minutes a week. Who doesn't have 5 minutes a week to improve their communication, right?

Absolutely, absolutely.

AmberAJohnson.substack.com. Go to AmberAJohnson.com, her website, to learn more, and also follow her at Amber A. Johnson. Amber, thank you so much. I so appreciate this.

My pleasure. Thank you, Bernadette Boas.

You're very welcome. You can never have enough conversations about communication, let alone communication in conflict. And our powerhouse guest, Dr. Amber Johnson, was the ultimate expert to tell us exactly what needs to be done in order for you to be so effective in your communications of any kind, but especially when it comes to conflict. So she emphasized two aspects of why conflict occurs, and that often is as a result of busyness and as a result of avoidance of conflict. Someone who doesn't necessarily wanna run into the storm and decides to avoid it. But she also mentioned with a little planning, whether you have that prep time or not, can go a long way in you being very effective, productive, and even welcoming those type of conversations versus avoiding them. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like and follow us. You can go to bolafirecoaching.com/podcast and subscribe at any one of your podcast streaming services, and to our Shedding the Corporate Bitch YouTube channel, and you won't miss a single episode. I look forward to having you right back here for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye.

Thank you for tuning into today's episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Every journey taken together is another step towards unleashing the powerhouse leader within you. Don't miss any of our weekly episodes. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. And for those who thrive on visual content, catch us on our Shedding the Bitch YouTube channel. Want to dive deeper with Bernadette on becoming a powerhouse leader? Visit balloffirecoaching.com to learn more about how she helps professionals, HR executives, and team leaders elevate overall team performance. You've been listening to Shedding the Corporate Bitch with Bernadette Boas. Until next time, keep shedding, keep growing, and