Silenced and Sidelined – How to Lead with a Purposeful Voice with CARRIE ARNOLD

Welcome, welcome, welcome everybody to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that helps transform corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by helping them shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fears, insecurities, negativities, and self-doubt that are holding them back from creating the riches in their work and life that they deserve. I'm Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, And I am talking with Carrie Arnold of the Willow Group all about what women leaders need to find their voices and break barriers in the workplace. I've asked Carrie to really help us answer the question, how do women recover from and manage feeling silenced? Who's ever experienced that? I certainly have. So please help me welcome Carrie to the show. Hi, Carrie, how are you?

Oh, hi Bernadette, I'm well. Thanks for having me.

Oh, you are very welcome. I'm excited to have this conversation. It's, um, one that actually talking to my own client many months back, I'll never forget her pain in feeling totally dismissed when she was silenced. And she was raising the issue up to me that she has resisted kind of raising her voice ever since, especially when this particular individual which is a senior, senior member of the organization, is in the room. So first, before we get into all of that, what was it about this subject matter that you went off and researched it, and then you compiled all that research into a book, which we'll talk about? But what was it about being silenced and sidelined?

It's such a good question. And I think like anybody who does a deep dive into work, we often do it because we want to better understand ourselves. You know, like most women, I think we all experience at times that feeling of dismissiveness, like, what is it about me that people can't hear? And what is it that I'm saying that's just not palatable to my audience? And so I had my own experience, of course. But I think what really led me to the research was when I started coaching women. And really seeing the pain as you just described. And I've had the opportunity at times to be internally coaching. So I'd have this one-on-one relationship with a client, and I would hear her purpose and her voice currency, and I would see the passion. Yet it didn't translate when I saw her in that public space. And so I got curious just about that entire phenomenon.

Oh, wow. That's fascinating. I love that. But did you see the phenomenon being silenced and sidelined? Was that the distinct thing that stood out to you?

I saw the phenomenon of women suffering, but I couldn't quite figure out what it was. Was it they weren't using the right words? Was it that they hadn't developed the vocabulary that their organization was seeking? So that's what led me into my PhD work. And then as I started getting into it, I realized I was asking the wrong questions. Before we can really figure out what purposeful voice is, we have to first figure out what's getting in the way of us getting in touch with our own voice.

Right.

And that's what led to me really trying to understand that phenomenology of feeling silenced. And what a paradox to be in leadership, in a CEO or corner office position, and feel like you don't have voice. Like, that doesn't even fit.

No. Right.

And that was the space I wanted to explore. I wasn't exploring it with brand new, straight out of college newbies trying to figure out their voice in the workplace. I was exploring it with women in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who had this phenomenon because to me, there was something deeper there going on. They knew themselves and they had shut down part of themselves. And that's the part I wanted to understand.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So let me ask you a couple of questions because that was loaded, what you just said. First off, we're talking more what I call seasoned professionals. You know, again, you said 40s, 50s, and 60s. And yes, you're stunned by hearing that they feel silenced or sidelined. However, just like I said about my client, she did. And I would say she's in her 50s, early to mid-50s, in a very established role. So what— give us some examples, if you could, specifically of what that looks like. First, what does silenced look like? And then what does it mean and what does it look like for a somebody to be sidelined? Because as you said, CEOs, senior VPs, um, and people would be shocked to hear that.

Yes, the silence doesn't mean we're quiet. And I think that's the perception that, oh, they're just introverted and they're just soft-spoken. And that's not how silenced people often manifest in the world. Sometimes we use more language because we keep trying to be heard. So the phenomenon of feeling silenced, it's very internal, but it impacts every single domain. It impacts our head. Our heart, our gut, our bodies. There's a physical ramification that occurs when women feel silenced over a prolonged period of time. And there's 3 ways in which women can feel silenced. And sometimes it's really hard to pinpoint where it's coming from. And then we know we're dealing with a system. Other times we know exactly where it's coming from. And that's a relationship. And then other times there's this fear factor involved that is is sort of undefined. And in those cases, we might just be self-silencing. And all three can have dramatic impacts on a human who's trying to lead effectively.

Yeah, absolutely. So when someone self-silences themselves— and let's talk VP, senior VP levels— how is that being projected? And what's the impact to not only themselves— we'll talk about that— but also to the people around them and what it is that they're tasked to do and accomplish?

Yeah, I like the way you're asking that question because it's very virusy. There's a virus aspect to it. So when I'm feeling silenced, my direct reports might start to feel silenced, and they might start to lead in a smaller box. I get asked a lot, what does this look like? It doesn't look the same on any two people. So how I feel silenced might look very different than how you would feel silenced. So it could be in obvious ways, being disinvited. Someone rolls their eyes at me, someone takes my ideas and makes them their own. It could be through really specific language choices where there's that microaggressive behavior that just sort of cuts you deeper and deeper and deeper each time. We've all experienced that. Some people just weather that really well and nothing changes and they just, well, that's so-and-so and I'm going to keep plowing forward. Right. Other women— and I hate to even say women, I'll say humans— other humans can't quite recover as much.

Yeah.

And so when we can't quite recover as much, we start to show up differently. Our being, the way we are in the world shifts and we start to move away from our true selves. This is where the harm comes in, is that the organization is not getting my best self and my direct reports aren't getting my best self.

Right.

And we start to live in different ways and lead in different ways.

Right. Well, and you said, and I want to make sure everybody heard it, you use one of the examples to be disinvited. And I'm not sure if everybody caught that, but that's profound, too. So what does it mean to be disinvited?

Hey, I think we're all such social creatures and to have a role that in theory on paper should be at the table, but then I'm not at the table because of other factors that haven't been disclosed to me.

Right.

That's extremely painful. And then there's this sort of phenomenon that we've all sort of seen in organizations where there's like the big kids table and the little kids table when it comes to vice presidencies and you know, senior-level roles. Like, if you're a revenue-generating VP, you're at the table, big kids' table. But maybe if you're support, like HR or marketing or, or some other function that maybe has been deemed something different, you feel like you're at little kids' table. Yeah, that shifts and varies from all over the place in different companies. And some of it is personality and some of it is systematic.

Yes. And some of it is, well, maybe what you just said in regards to personality. Is it that the personality, does that mean that it's not only about you, but it's about that individual who is silencing or sidelining or disinviting you? It might be their own issue.

It could be. And it could be that if we took the entire org chart and replaced it with brand new people, the same phenomenon could repeat itself because there's a system in place that tends to foster who has voice and who doesn't. And so you really have to interrogate the systems. That's a level of work sometimes that we don't have the luxury of leaning into. And so we struggle to navigate. We struggle to try to figure out what it means to have a purposeful voice.

Right. Right. Yes. Because interrogating the work— you have some great phrases, Carrie. So to, you know, to interrogate the work also means the fact that are you looking at in your work, is this system-wide? Is this part of the culture or is this just an individual?

Exactly.

That, you know, because I used to create a lot of that and it wasn't the system and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a blanket part of the culture. I actually was the type of individual that's hence the name of my show. That definitely purposely silenced, sidelined, disinvited other people, you know, because I thought it made me feel powerful and made me feel good. So do you look at in your interrogation, do you look at all those different layers of where it could be coming from? Yeah.

And I think the most important thing is, and I say this in every single talk I do, there is no villain in the story. I'm just as capable of silencing someone as you are. Sometimes it's intentional. Most of the time it's not. So we all have that ability. What I have found, and this is something we're not talking about, I need to get fluent in Bernadette. If I'm going to report to Bernadette, I need a fluency around Bernadette. What does she value? How does she speak? What topics are most important to her? It doesn't mean I change who I am.

Right.

I can pivot. So Bernadette can hear me.

Yeah.

And I think we, in just humans, need to be doing that in our organization, especially when we're new or things are hard. What gets heard? What doesn't get heard? Who gets to say it? Who doesn't get to say it? How are we navigating that system, exploring it almost as a researcher doing an ethnography study on who— this is an interesting organization. Here's how they communicate. So how do I now? Navi, something that I better understand.

Yeah. And do you see that? I love that because it is so rampant that leaders should really get to know each of the individuals that are supporting them and working for them because we're not all the same. We all have different needs. We all have different language and communication. We're also all motivated differently. Do you see where there's just a lack of personal and professional development in the corporate environment that allows an individual the space and the opportunity to learn how to actually interpersonally relate to one another? Because so many aren't taught that.

I agree. Yeah, I think you're asking a really good question, and I think sometimes we are having the wrong conversations. Like, we talk about norms and we talk about open-door policies, and we have those sort of things that just we believe stand for themselves, and they don't. And so in my work, I bring up conversations that perhaps they haven't had before just to test, do you have appetite for this?

Right.

For instance, psychological safety, that's not something I actually introduced in the book, but that's a term. If I don't feel safe, it's not a physical safety. It's like, will you value me? Will you still like me if I talk to you about this topic? These are the things that, you know, people kind of like have an allergy towards, like just come into your job. And yet we're in this new context where we have to be treating each other different to get different results.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, we have to be treating each other as individual humans. And I say it all the time, Carrie, we're not robots.

That's right.

You know, we have to recognize that we have to be treated as humans. So what is the biggest hurdle in doing that? What is the biggest hurdle in getting either an individual or a company to see that that's what it's going to take, let alone— we'll get to kind of what are some tips and, and things that you do in your work to help, you know, that along. But what do you see to be the biggest hurdle?

I think there's probably lots of different hurdles, time, resources, but I think there's something else fundamentally going on, and that is I have to be willing to be vulnerable. So if I'm a woman sitting in that CEO role and I am actually feeling silenced by some of my own direct reports, what's my willingness to name that?

Right. Right.

To say, I feel silenced when we have these conversations. I'm noticing my voice doesn't feel welcomed at this table anymore. And I'm curious what's behind that. That takes so much courage to be able to name that. But until we start doing that, I'm not sure we'll start to see the shifts. It's one thing to maybe speak power to your direct reports, but to speak your truth up, like, this is how I'm experiencing you. This is how I feel when I try to raise important topics. Yeah, we actually have to use that language. I'm feeling silenced. It doesn't mean you're trying to silence me, but that's how I'm experiencing, right, this team right now, and I'd like to have a conversation about that.

Yeah, that's a powerful observation or finding because we don't talk to each other like, so, Carrie, how do I make you feel? You know, how does my sitting down right next to you with my face in your face, you know, how is that coming across? How are you feeling? We don't have those type of conversations. And again, I sit there and I'm envisioning like a conference room full of ties and heels, and I'm like, boy, that must get them squirming in their chair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think is why we don't talk about it. Because if you're a woman running a company or you're in an executive role, you're in such a tiny percentage as it is. When you look at women in those executive roles, in fact, our trajectory is not going up. It's—

No.

—go down. And so you're already one of so few. Right. And you don't have that peer group, and you're trying to prove yourself day in and day out, and you're already feeling isolated because of that. Now you're going to disrobe and talk about how you're experiencing a certain group of people. Some people just may not have the tank for that, enough fuel in their professional tank for that.

Yeah, no, I can absolutely see that, especially if even though they're at the top, or maybe not all the way to the top, but even at the top, second level tier, and yet there's a lot of suits around them, and that's even, you know, one heel, 'cause I've also experienced that in my career. That could definitely kind of silence them. And I guess that's where they're silencing themselves. Could be.

Yeah, and it's interesting when I've done this talk, a lot of people are like, "I'm so guilty of that." I also have men approach me saying, This isn't a gendered thing. I've experienced that. So if you think about how women are reluctant to name it, men could be even more so reluctant. You know, we tend to study what we deem are marginalized groups, but there's a lot of men sitting at the table who may have a very similar experience. Yeah. Yes, there is.

I mean, we're all human, right? You know, men aren't made of armor to where there's things that don't hurt them. At the same time, I think that— now, is— I'm sorry, is Silence in Sidelines specifically looking at women?

Well, that was my research. So I did my dissertation, and then I went back and did some postdocs. So all of my participants were women. OK. But after the book got published and I started speaking on this topic is when men started saying, it applies to us too.

Right, right. No, I— yeah, totally. I think I'm thrilled that I'm meeting you and I'm sharing, you know, your book and your research, because I think women, even though everyone experiences the same, women definitely need that special attention. 'Cause like you said, they're a small percentage. So the weight is on them, you know, even more so. And so if the research and the findings in your book, "Silenced and Sidelined," can help them, "How Women Leaders Find Their Voices and Break Barriers," then, um, That's a beautiful thing, and I applaud you for doing the work. What was your personal biggest surprise that really maybe hit home for you that you found in your research?

Oh, I love that you're asking that question. My biggest surprise was two things. Women who silence other women cause more damage than women who feel silenced by men. It's like scorched earth is how one participant described it. And that was a real aha moment for me because we need to be creating community as women. Right. And if we're silencing each other, that's a big problem. So that was my one big surprise, you know, is when I started hearing those stories. I think my second surprise is how long women describe their recovery and how long it took them to really feel like they refound themselves and not only refound themselves, but physically healed from some of the body ramifications of feeling silenced. Those are my two big surprises. All right.

I have to drill into your words again because they're fabulous. Body recovery. What's happening? What do you— is that physical? Are you talking physical body? Yeah. What, what are those ramifications that women are experiencing as a result of being silenced?

Well, it's so funny. We blame it on age and we blame it on stress. And yet when I started asking the questions, tell me about a time when you felt silenced. Tell me what was happening, who was doing it, what was going on? Just asking all those open-ended questions. And then I would follow up with what was physically going on in your body during that period of time. Man, it was just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. All these light bulbs started going off. So I'll narrow it down to 3 areas. There was the respiratory system where women described a lack of immunity, strep throat, a lot of bronchitis, some asthma symptoms. And so think about this channel in our necks, right? You know, we breathe in and our vocal cords vibrate, and this area is responsible for so much. Of course, this would be compromised a little bit if our voice is feeling silenced and muted and muffled and suppressed. The digestive tract— women describing ulcers, acid reflux, grinding of teeth. Everything was different, but they categorically held together. It was either digestive tract or the respiratory system, which is a huge— two huge systems in our body. But then there was overall, like, tension headaches, weight gain, weight loss. Everything sort of seemed to accumulate in those periods of time where they were mentally and emotionally feeling suppressed, muffled, right?

And right. Damn. Now, I mean, you triggered something with me and not necessarily in the business environment, quite honestly, but I'm a big pickleballer. I play pickleball and I compete and I more so compete with myself wanting to get better. So, you know, we can relate this to women in business. They're wanting to get better, they're wanting to advance, they're wanting to, you know, get into those higher positions. And yet, as I had been working to advance and get into those higher-level groups, so to speak, I was definitely silenced and sidelined. And so when you were talking about the body ramifications, I mean, I'm sitting here going, yep, I can remember just feeling a lot of tension in here. And I, you know, I put— I was putting on weight because I was just kind of, you know, eating my, my feelings of being sidelined. And, you know, fortunately worked my way through it, which I want to talk to you about. But yes, I mean, oh my gosh, the triggers that, you know, this conversation can create as well. But the recovery, the recovery that's there. So you mentioned, you mentioned recovery. Yeah. And again, that makes it sound as if this is, you know, something that is very serious physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. So what does recovery look like? What is that process, you know, of recovery? What does that look like for individuals?

Yeah, I think the first thing I want to say is it's not a flip of the switch. So you can't just leave your job, start another one, and feel like, oop, I'm good now. Right. Just take your silent self somewhere else. Shortest period of time based on my participants With the postdoc, we're talking dozens and dozens and dozens. It was 8 months. Longest period was still haven't, and this happened 20 years ago. So on average, about 2 years that women felt like it took them, and I'll use the word detox, to just really shed all of the experiences that kind of had made, one person talked about it was sandpaper on her soul. You know? Oh! Some of those experiences— but here's the thing, there are 4 types of women and how they recover. There's the women who can stay in their role and recover. That's a tiny percentage. There's the women who leave and recover, and then there's those who stay and never recover, and there's those who leave and never recover. And so what also was a surprise is when I sent out the request for participants to be able Participants, I asked, if you've had this experience in your past and you fall in these parameters, I want to talk to you. Well, then when I started doing my open-ended interviews, I realized, oh, this isn't in your past. You're still dealing with this years later. So another finding was some women don't actually feel like they ever get back their true authentic voice.

Right. Wow. Oh, well, and that's a great segue. Well, because I do want to talk to you about purposeful voice. But before we get there, though, wow. When it comes to those categories of recovery and then the fifth being not recovery and still dealing with it. So do you, you know, putting those, those 5 things, those 5 elements, I'm not sure what I want to call them, but do you know what are your practices? What, you know, what are your means of helping them work through that to kind of move from one of those buckets to hopefully a bucket that says recovery in it?

Yeah, so there are really specific things women can do. I think the most important thing is to recognize it's not fast. So there's this kitchen table phenomenon, and we have to ask ourselves, who's sitting at my kitchen table? Who knows me? Who has refrigerator rights? Who has a key? Who can come in and make themselves a meal without me telling them where to find things? If I don't have those relationships in my life professionally, recovery is going to be difficult. So who's sitting at your kitchen table? Second, are men invited into that kitchen table? Because believe it or not, so many of my participants said, who helped me the most was actually my male colleague. And so how are we open to allowing those individuals in. The other thing that's really important, and when I say self-care, people automatically think to put down the muffin, go to the gym, and get better sleep, and that's not going to help you get your voice back. So I've kind of outlawed self-care. To me, it's self-regard. Self-regard. Self-regard. When I like someone and I respect them, I listen to them, I lean in. Am I doing that with myself? Am I giving myself the same regard I would give to another person? So that's some inner work. Um, and then again, it really comes down to community. Am I in community? Am I with peers who are in the same type of role? I'm not talking friends because rarely are my friends doing the same type of work as me. Do I have other colleagues in the same space as me that I can be in community with, because recovering on my own may not be possible.

Right, right. I love what you said about the men though, um, because the one thing that has always driven me crazy is when I go to a women's conference and there's no men. I hate that too. And I'm like, I understand you need to commune together. Yes. But you can't change things without the source of— not all the entire source, but a core source and a course of support as much as understanding.

I agree with you. And there's so many men out there who want to be good male allies, right? And they're just trying to figure out how. And so I think they're— I actually, I shouldn't say I hate women's conferences. I love them. I speak at them all the time. But I want men to be at the right when we're having these conversations. Right, right.

All right. I'll change my, my words as well. It frustrates me. Yeah. Well, there's a missing piece. Yeah, there's a missing piece at women's conferences, and that is men. But I also love what you said about the self-regard. How does a woman who is feeling this silenced, hasn't quite recovered, What are the first steps that she could be taking in order to really understand, even if she's dealing with this?

Yeah, the first step is to name it. The first step is to almost say, okay, what has happened or what is happening? Who is it happening with? What's the impact on me? What am I experiencing, feeling, thinking? There has to be a story that she's willing to tell about herself, ideally with an audience. But there has to be this— you've got to name it to claim it, reclaim it, tame it, all of that good stuff, reframe it. Right. Maybe we can do that on our own. I'm not that successful at help. Sometimes we can work our way through it, but most of the time we need a bear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So naming it, and then I think after that naming of it, it's then it could be with a therapist, it could be with a friend, it could be with a coach, it could be with a colleague. But that processing of, okay, what can I let go of? What do I need to work on to process for resolution? I think it's unpacking it in different ways, but it has to be named, right?

It has to be named. Love that, love that. Mine would be pissy. Pissy at Pickleball, that's what mine would have been named. And so is the research that you've done within Silenced and Sidelined, is that now the premise of what it is that you do within the Willow Group? You know, it's actually not.

My, my main focus is coaching, and I coach in nonprofit, education, healthcare, government. But people will often hire me because of the book, because that's a piece that they really want to explore. So I don't push that. Right. Right. It's not true of all women or men or all humans. Sure. But what I do push in my book is going back to voice currency. Currency is different now, and it's about voice. Who gets heard is the new currency. It's not necessarily title anymore. Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's all about who has the most influence. And so how am I developing that in myself? Who is getting in the way of that influence? Who keeps blocking me? How do I navigate that? Can I be influential and have voice currency in this organization? Maybe not. And so how do I choose something that's a good— say, not stay too long trying to get it all done before I go. Women stay too long sometimes in roles that is unhealthy. So it really comes down to that fluency of organizational speak? And is it calibrated with who I want to be? And if it's not, then we as women and humans need to make choices, right, to be where we can feel heard. Not every organization is going to be the same. Right?

Right. Oh, absolutely. Even though they think they are, they're not. So part of what you also write and researched was the purposeful voice. Yeah. What does a purposeful voice sound like in someone? Well, specifically women in business. What does that appear as?

It's a balance between context and bottom lining it. I have to provide enough of myself when I'm communicating. And if all of my words are declarative, get it done, get it done, get it done. Here's why. Here's why. Don't ask questions. People are going to get it done, but it's not necessarily going to foster the type of environment. But if I'm story-centric and I want to provide every detail because I want you to understand me, people will become glazed donuts. And so first of all, how are we balancing speech acts? You know, there's different ways in which we speak. There's declarative language, there's passive language. So I think purposeful voice is understanding the balance between the two. And 80% of most people use passive language, and that can be problematic. But if you lean too much into purposeful, get it done, get it done, there's a human factor that could silence. And so I think the very first thing, it comes back to fluency, is really getting clear on my own preferences and how I speak. Getting like, to me, that's a diamond in the rough. I'm a diamond. You can't beat me up. I'm rock solid. I'm a diamond. But a diamond has facets and it can lean and glimmer and backwards and forwards and side to side in order to feel heard. And so how are we imaging that in our brains?

Now, does that also— and speaking of your coaching work, is that also really someone having a real good grasp on who they are? I mean, take away the just the business and the work speak, but who they really are and what they mean to themselves. And who it is that they want to be. And maybe that gap of maybe they're not that person yet, but, you know, does it go back further in their origin than just, you know, their voice and their fluency? It starts with kind of them having a good idea of who they are.

It does. And I really like how you put that. Who— what do I mean to myself? I love the way you frame that. Yeah. Sometimes our stories go all the way back and we grew up silenced. We grew up not having voice. We grew up in muted, suppressed, muffled, unappreciated way. And so how do we shed some of that origin to find self? But I, when I think of what the world is facing, we need really self-aware leaders. We need leaders who can laugh at themselves, apologize when they need to apologize, own when their language has been offensive, stand firm even when there's criticism, and be a human that people can, A, really follow. Like, I want to follow someone not because I like them, but because I respect them and I have regard for them. And so that doesn't happen by accident. That's work, right? Right.

Focus and work and patience, consistency. It's not easy, but it's very, very doable, right? And needed. And needed. Boom. All right, so this has been fabulous. I just could talk about this forever and a day. And I want to make sure everybody remembers her book, Silenced and Sidelined: How Women Leaders Find Their Voices and Break Barriers. You can get it on Amazon and please do. And actually, don't only get it for yourself. Maybe there's team members, maybe there's associates or employees that would benefit from that as well. So, Carrie, what would you want to kind of just put the dot on that exclamation point of this conversation. But what would you want to leave our viewers and listeners with when it comes to this subject?

What I want to leave the viewers and listeners with is don't leave. You know, we leave corporate America. We— when we've got these hard experiences, we leave and we go do something that's easier. Maybe not in leadership. Maybe we make a change and we go into consulting. And that's fine. You go do that for as long as you need. But please come back. And lead because organizations will just keep churning out more of a silenced leader because the systems are designed that way. But do your self-work and then come back as a more evolved person and lead at the top. We need more women leaders in corporate. The exit strategy is fine for a short period, but I worry when they don't come back.

Right, sure. OK, I'm going to have to ask a question on that. So are you finding that because there is this idea of, you know, just people kind of giving in, you know, they talk about it with divorce, you know, marriage and whatnot. They just kind of walk away instead of doing the hard work. And yet there's solutions right where they are. Should they reach out and get a coach or find the resources that they need to do to do the work to recover as they're in, in that role. Do you find that that's a good opportunity for them? Because you mentioned that one of the issues is that they can stay, but then nothing changes. Yeah. Yeah.

I think you're bringing up a good point. If you need to leave to heal, do what you need to do to heal. But please come back. Because the world needs your leadership. But if you can catch it soon enough, get your support, get your kitchen table, get your self-regard strategies. Get your community and work through whatever is silencing you so that your organization can benefit from your leadership.

Yeah. So let me ask you a question. We've been talking about the seasoned, you know, the 40, 50, 60-year-old. But have you seen in corporate where the high potential emerging, like, you know, the ones in their late 20s, 30s, are corporations focusing on this to where they're giving them the mentoring, giving them the coaching, giving them the support and development? That's needed to ensure that this doesn't happen as they get into their 40s, 50s, and 60s?

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think so. There's so many organizations that have emerging leadership programs and they get seminars and coaches and community-type learning, and then they bypass those in higher levels of leadership that might need it. But I do think there is more of a phenomenon to do some of that emerging leadership work, which I think is fabulous. I love big parts of that.

Yeah, that's awesome. This has been fabulous. I could talk to you forever about this subject. I absolutely love it. And everyone, again, please pick up her book, Silence and Sidelines: How Women Leaders Find Their Voices and Break Barriers. But also reach out to her at willow-group.com and just learn more about how she could support you, your team, and your company. Kerry, thank you so much. This has been fabulous. I so appreciate you being part of the program.

Thank you, Bernadette. It's been fun. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Wow. Wasn't that conversation— wasn't Kerry amazing? And what are you taking away from it? Because there was a boatload to unpack there. And at the same time, it's a conversation as well that you definitely want to be sharing with other women on your team, other women within your community and network. And as Carrie said, if you don't have a community and you don't have the kitchen table, then that's one area that you should be working on. And reach out to her, www.willow-group.com. And at the same time, if you have any questions, even that go far beyond this conversation, and you need someone to, to talk to and just get some guidance from, don't hesitate to always Reach out to me as well. Book some time at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall and let's chat about it because we all need to be supporting each other as women. And at the same time, you deserve to get the support that you need so you can create riches in your work and life. So until next time, and I look forward to seeing you right back here. Take care, everybody. Bye.