The 7 Deadly Sins of Negotiations with Cindy Watson

How do you feel about negotiating for what it is that you want in your work and life? Have you considered that everything in life is a negotiation? From buying a car, influencing your kids to do something that you need them to do, to asking for what it is you want in the workplace, and even what it is you need from your relationships. Do you recognize that right now you have everything that you need to be a master negotiator of your best life? Well, according to our guest, Cindy Watson of Women on Purpose, if you recognize that all of life is a negotiation, and that you have what you need right now to be that master negotiator, then you're going to show up with a lot more intention, focus, and confidence to negotiate for your best life. So following our discussion, you're going to walk away with a few simple models you can apply in your everyday to foster better outcomes, better relationships, better buy-in, and so much more, while recognizing the power of leaning into your femininity to get more of what it is you want and you deserve. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm, along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Follow Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Cindy, how are you? Welcome to Shitting the Corporate Bitch.

Well, thank you, Bernadette. It's so great to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

I am too, because the 7 deadly sins of negotiation. Power, power, power, power. But before we get there, before we get into all the business stuff, um, please help us get to know you, uh, inside and outside of work so our listeners and viewers can kind of connect.

Okay, yeah, beautiful. Um, well, I often say, you know, I grew up in a low-rental apartment complex in what was known as a tough neighborhood. Uh, I didn't think of it that way, it was just home, obviously, growing up. And, uh, but like a lot of people, I think, that come from backgrounds where we did without, I was pretty driven, I confess, right? So I went to high school and university and then law school, always sort of striving, driving, achieving for those straight A's. And when I started in the practice of law, I knew I wanted to do social justice. I was a big rooter for the underdog, probably given my background. And one of the things that struck me, you know, you come out fresh-faced out of law school as a 20-something-year-old, and I was almost always the only woman in the room. And I thought, I better get scrappier. And I think like a lot of women, whether in the professions or in business, in the corporate world or politics, And I did, and there was a high cost that came with that, which led to a lot of this. But I've got 3 kids, for those who want a little to know about my personal life. We started late and made up for lost time. I had 3 kids in 3 years, so I'm— wow— who are now a little older, so they're just finishing their sort of university path and getting on to adulthood, or so they're supposed to be, but we're still waiting.

Well, help me understand the get scrappier, because I love that. So what was it that caused you to think you had to get scrappier? And then how did it, how did it not necessarily work for you?

Yeah, no, great question. It was, I, I was, I would say at the beginning, I, you know, I, my approach tended to, my intuitive approach, which I didn't know until years later, was all about rapport building, right? Bringing empathy to the table, getting sort of those collaborative solutions. And then, when I started in social justice, most of the work I was doing was with trade unions, right? A lot of labor law. So, not only— and I'm dating myself here. I mean, there are more women in the profession now. But they're still not getting as high up. They're not getting the pay that they should. They're not getting the partnerships that they should in the same numbers. But I was almost always the only woman in the room. My clients were all male. The adjudicators were male. The other side was male. And you could just see like the way they looked at me, the way they talked. They walked on eggshells. You know, you could see them kind of questioning. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna have to take a, you know, if I may say, given the name here, a ballsier approach here if they're going to take me seriously. And it wasn't— they called me the barracuda, which of course they meant as the highest compliment. And I'm embarrassed, Bernadette, now to say, I confess, I wore it like a badge of honor. Like I was ruthless in cross-examination. And you know, if I brought the supervisors to tears, I knew my client was thrilled. But it starts to affect your professional, and here's the cost piece. That starts to affect your professional relationships. Then, it ripples into your personal relationships. I often joke, when I went to the hotel, if they didn't have the room I want, "Hide your children." It was like, it just ripples over. But ultimately, your sense of self. There are days when I got to the point where I was looking in the mirror and I'm like, "I'm not sure I like who I am anymore, how it's affecting my relationship with my intimate partner." And sometimes, with my kids, I would get called on it. You know, for one time my son, I thought we were having a normal conversation and he was getting frustrated and I didn't understand. He's like, for God's sake, mom, does every conversation with you have to be an argument that you win? And it, I mean, it may sound like nothing, but certainly for the mothers in the crowd, it took my breath away. It kind of shattered my heart in pieces on the floor.

So I bet, I bet. And so what did you decide to do? What kind of shift did you try to, did you decide to make? To kind of get out of that scrappiness.

And it's been a journey, I confess. I mean, I had the epiphanies first, but it takes a lot of reframing and undoing years and years of conditioning. But at first I started digging in and having epiphanies, looking back at, you know, when my daughter was born, for example. I'll give you the very abbreviated version, but at 2 months she got diagnosed with a really serious heart defect. And needed open heart surgery. And everything that could go wrong did. We spent 3 months in critical care in the hospital. And at first, I would just trust the judgment of the doctors. And if I would have opinions and they would sort of shush me, and it turned out that my concerns were legit, I started really stepping up. But I didn't realize until years later, I was already using what I now call the art of feminine negotiation back then intuitively. And that's when my clients called me Barracuda. You would have thought if there was ever a time that I would have brought that barracuda to the table. It was them. But I wasn't. I was building rapport with the nurses and the doctors and the administrators. I was bringing empathy to the table. I was having to trust my intuition. I was building trust with all of the players to make sure they knew who my daughter was and that she was getting the best care possible and we were getting the best outcomes possible. And then I thought back to a course I'd taken in law school, a negotiation course where we were basically negotiating for our marks. And again, it wasn't until like a decade or more later that I'm like, you know what? I wasn't the Barracuda back then. I won virtually every negotiation that year, which our prof was saying never happened. But I was coming to every one of those negotiations going, "If we don't get a deal, we get a zero. So what can I do for you? What do you need? Like, let's be vulnerable here. Let's share." It was all about rapport building and empathy and trust building. And that had come to me intuitively. So I started digging in. And being more intentional about what I now call leaning into those so-called feminine traits to get those better outcomes.

Right, right. Well, and you know, obviously the name of the show, Shedding the Corporate Bitch, I have a very similar experience, so it's awesome to, to hear your story, uh, centered around that. And so when it comes to negotiation, because that is one of those what many will perceive as scrappy so to speak, um, of a skill. And yet at the same time, you know, bringing the femininity into the process, obviously you've proven that that is far more successful than, uh, kind of bringing the barracuda table. So what do you think it is about negotiation that gets a lot of women in their head?

Yeah, no, I love that question. And I just want to say, when you mentioned the, you know, corporate— shedding the corporate bitch, I love the title of your podcast and I love your podcast. I love the work you're doing. So thank you for that. And you see me swishing around. I got a fly that's driving me crazy here. I don't know what's going on. So I think for most women, and it's one of the things that really kickstarted me to get on this path that, you know, to found Women On Purpose, I think women do one of two things.. They either shy away from negotiation thinking, 'Oh, it's conflict. I don't really like conflict.' And they miss out on that. They miss out on opportunities. Or at the other end of the spectrum, I tend to attract a lot of clients who, like me, thought they had to bring that overcompensating, chest-beating kind of energy. So, I think those are the two ends of the spectrum that most women tend to fall under. And it does them a disservice because neither of those are going to get you best outcomes or frankly get, you know, my book's called The Art of Feminine Negotiation: How to Get What You Want from the Boardroom to the Bedroom. And I think we lose out in our personal and our professional lives when we see negotiation as based on the myths that we've been taught.

Right. Which are, what would you say are the biggest myths that we've been taught? And are these myths kind of centered on women or are they just myths around negotiation?

I'd love to understand that. Great question. Both, I would say, Bernadette. And one, I mean, the gender-based myth is that women aren't great negotiators. I think most men assume that. I think women buy into that myth. And then again, either shy away or overcompensate as a result. And it's interesting because if you look at the traits that make the most effective negotiators, 5 out of 6 of them are traits people consider feminine. And yet, we still buy into the myth that women are somehow not good negotiators. But the more generic myths that I think are really damaging for both men and women is that, like, first thing when you picture negotiation, most people imagine a boardroom, the power suit, toughness. Toughness carries the day. The person talking the loudest and the longest is the person who is winning. And even the concept that negotiation is about winning or losing. I mean, the more I have dug in and really delved into this and are living and breathing and teaching it, I recognize People who approach it with a win-lose mentality just simply do not get best outcomes. They don't build the requisite trust. They don't get those long-term, long-lasting agreements or buy-in or relationships. And it's not about toughness, contrary to popular belief. It's about bringing those traits, considering more what the other party needs, I guess, is the biggest thing, right? Like discovering that at the outset of a negotiation, showing up with curiosity, those are the things that are going to get— make— get you deals that are better than even what you thought you wanted going into the negotiation.

Yeah. Yes, yes. So keep in mind what the other person's looking for. Uh, is it about making it a win-win for both parties? Is there a winner and a loser, or is it, no, let's find a mutual agreement here?

I'm glad you raised the win-win because I think the way that term is understood is one of the problems, right? It's not about— most people when they talk about win-win, they think about splitting the baby basically. Or I want X, you want Y. Either one of us is going to get X or Y, or we're going to find something in between. We're both going to have to compromise. To me, when you are really in the zone and you're showing up with intention, the way— rather than getting X or Y, it's being able to find those solutions that are up here, that are something new and different altogether. And I've been, especially in law and in the business world, I have seen a lot of really experienced, well-known mediators who say, "I know I've done my job well if both parties walk away unhappy." And I'm like, that is a no. It is not about people walking away unhappy. It is, in an ideal world, and this isn't always possible, but in the vast majority of cases, if you show up more intentionally and follow some of the sort of models that I suggest, you will get outcomes that are just simply better. You'll have better relationships, better buy-in, longer-lasting agreements, more creative solutions that better serve everybody rather than keeping that tunnel vision. I need this. I want this. When there are actually better alternatives out there that may not even be directly related to what we think we're negotiating about.

Right, right. And so what would one of those models be that you would recommend that our listeners and viewers keep in mind?

One of them I would say, probably the easiest one for them to remember right off the cuff would be, I call it the 5W model. And this isn't rocket science. I'm not claiming any sort of nobility. This is common sense stuff. But it's the opposite of what we're taught. So, on the 5W model, it's just simply who, what, where, when, why. So, every time you're about to enter a negotiation, whether it's personal with your intimate partner or your kids or a really high-stakes business deal, and in your roles as leaders out there for your audience. Just do a little check-in in advance of the negotiation or difficult conversation and go, okay, who do I want to be, right? Like pick, choose 3 words that describe whether maybe it's calm, collected, compelling. There's no right or wrong. Maybe for you, it's brave, courageous, curious, whatever. But if you are intentional about how you want to show up, you're less likely to get thrown off your game because you can just breathe, ground yourself, and remind yourself, here's who I want to be. But also, what role do I want to show up in? Like I've had with kids negotiations where I show up as mom and it's the wrong role. Their eyes glaze over immediately. You know, I had to get a different role. Who do they expect us to show up as? Who should be at the table? Who shouldn't be at the table? So, that's just a few whos. The what— don't just think about the thing that you're negotiating about. Think about what outcome you want in terms of relationship. Sometimes, the relationship is more important than the thing you're negotiating about. Again, whether with your kids or a business deal. So, who, what, The where, you know, and when we read books, we know setting is important. In real estate, we know location is important. Choose where you negotiate. Some conversations you want to have happen at the water cooler, some in the boardroom, some on a business retreat. Be intentional about where, you know, where is going to be the ambiance that you want. Where are people going to be more relaxed? Do you even want them relaxed, right? Who, what, where, and then the when. As kids, we knew to choose our timing carefully. And you know, don't ask your parents for that thing you want if they're in a pissy mood, right? But then we forget it as adults. So, choose your timing. And the last W is why. People say, well, Cindy, with money, it's just about the money. It is almost never just about the money, Bernadette, right? It's about what that money represents for people. So, who, what, where, when, why. If you even tap into those quickly as a mental check-in, you will already massively elevate the outcomes you're going to get in a negotiation.

Right. And again, you use this spectrum of with relationships all the way to big deals.. But there's so much in between that in our day in, day out, both personal and professional life, we're always negotiating something. A day off, a salary increase, you know, friends, what we're going to, you know, what we want to do and spend, where do we want to spend our vacation. And you could be using this model across any and all of those, right?

And I love that you mentioned that because I think that's one of the problems with women, one of those myths when they think they're not great negotiators. You are negotiating every— before you even jumped into a leadership role, you have been negotiating every day in a myriad of ways, whether it's a game with your friends, with your partners. And I think as women, we're actually forced to have to build rapport more than men, given historical reasons where, you know, we couldn't own credit or property. I mean, of necessity, historically, women had to build rapport to be able to survive, frankly. So You are already equipped to be an exceptional negotiator. Just elevate your intention about all of those interactions you're having. And let's not forget negotiating our own mindset every day. Hundreds of ways we are negotiating who, how we want to show up, who we show up as. Pushing past all those limiting beliefs that hold us back. Pushing back all those stereotypes and framing about what it even means to be successful.

Because it's actually what goes on in our head that either, you know, allows us to be successful or holds us back.

And how do we define success? I mean, one of the things that really kickstarted me on this journey is if you take— you think about it, certainly in my lifetime we have seen this increasing conditioning defining success in a way that's based on a very competitive masculine model. And, and I should clarify, when I say masculine, feminine, that's not necessarily gender-based. In fact, it's not gender-based. We all have masculine and feminine energy, and I suspect in the near future, we're not even going to be using that terminology at all. And I agonized over whether to even call the book The Art of Feminine Negotiation because I think it's going to be dated soon, frankly. But it's the— I really made a decision that because this is still such an issue, I'm going to just call it out, right? The fact is I think both men and women stifle our so-called feminine, believing that it's a liability. And that's the biggest mistake that we can make for both men and women. I think it's one of the reasons the world's so out of balance.

Yes. Yeah, no, I absolutely love that. I absolutely love that. And yes, I can definitely relate because I for decades was more on the masculine traits and then my feminine. And, um, you know, and it's, and it's been a great discovery and transformation to, to tap into those, to those feminine side, and to see, which is what I, you know, you're trying to influence our listeners and viewers around just how the world could be so opened up to you.

Yeah.

When you do tap into those traits.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you mentioned about your, your masculine. My husband, and he didn't mean it as a shot, but at one point early in our relationship, he's like, you know what, they have the XY chromosomes. I think it's possible you have maybe a little more, or maybe, maybe it's testosterone, I don't know. And I'm like, that was a bit of a wake-up call as well. I'm like Is this really how I want to show up in the world? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I love that one question in itself of the 5 W's is who.

Yeah.

Like, who is it? Um, because how people— a lot of, uh, people, even women, hear the word intention.

Yeah.

And they don't really necessarily sit with it, what it truly, truly means and how it's applied. So, could you help us understand that a bit?

Yeah, and I use the word a lot. So, I'm glad you called that out because I agree with you. I think it's a word that's misconstrued. And to me, it's just raise your awareness, right? And at every step, you know, in all of your encounters, in every aspect of your life, but particularly because I believe all of life is a negotiation. If you approach all of those negotiations, every interaction, every day, choosing— when I say with intention, Make an intentional choice about who you want to be, how you respond. I mean, that's key. What's that beautiful quote about? Between every stimulus and reaction, there is a pause. And in that pause, we have the gift of the opportunity for choice. So, invite you if you're triggered, whether it's again in a business deal or by your kids or an intimate partner, just take that pause before you react. And choose what is going to best serve this relationship, what is going to best serve the outcome I want, what is going to best serve my own perception of myself and how I'm going to feel walking away, and how do I want to make this other person feel? How do I want them to— just taking those simple check-ins, elevating your intention will go a long way. And raising your intention as well about unconscious gender bias. We love to point the finger at men and say we've been oppressed and there it's bias by men against women. But I don't know about you, Bernadette, but I don't think anything will ever change until we start recognizing the bias of women against other women and even the bias of women against ourselves. That was probably the most shocking thing to me when I was researching for my book. Some of the studies that show the extent to which unconscious gender bias affects how we show up affects our performance. I mean, it's remarkable.

Well, and also what is screaming at me as you're having, you know, you're sharing all of this is just the fact that it's, it's our choosing. You use that word, you, you said that it's our choice. We're in complete control of how we show up in the world, how we respond to the world, how we engage with the world, how we negotiate. And that's what I picked up from the use of intention, is if we can find and be intentional about making those choices, you know, then we can be in total control of how we allow the world to affect us. Would you agree with that?

Oh, I love that. And I think that for me, that was one of the biggest learnings because I think I was guilty, as we all are, conditioned about, oh, this is happening to me, or they made me feel that nobody can— I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said that, right? Like, nobody can make— you have to give permission for that. So we get to choose. And I think that's a powerful shift. When we take that ownership. And I get that as women in particular, I think there are historical reasons again, when we probably don't feel like we've always had control over our life or circumstances. But we do get to choose our reactions to every single stimulus we hit in our life.

And victimhood can be such an ugly place to live by just deflecting and blaming everyone else. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. And just to share on that, just to hit the point home, because one of the studies that— I mean, I don't— it really deeply resonated with me because they've done different versions of this study where they'd have young women who are going to write their SAT exams, and half the control group were asked to identify their gender and the other half weren't in advance of writing the test. Like, I'm talking simply check off whether they're male or female. And in study after study, whether it was the SAT test or the AP test, different versions of it, the women who were asked to identify their gender actually performed more poorly. Like, bringing our femaleness to our attention actually has us underperform and show up as smaller versions of ourselves. So I think we need to recognize that, get intentional about pushing past those unconscious gender biases that hold us back, right?

And the whole idea of the women, how women treat other women, I think is so, so critical. And, you know, and it can play into and support them when it comes to negotiation. So bringing it back to negotiation, right? If we can understand how we can, you know, ensure to support other women.

Yeah, a rising tide lifts all boats. Some of the biggest hurdles I had in my career were not actually men exhibiting bias against me, but other women. Right. And It's like we feel there's— I think it's a scarcity mindset, right? And again, I understand where it comes from. But if we think, oh, there's this little pie and only a tiny bit of this pie is going to women, I have to make sure I get that. As opposed to the bigger we make the pie, the more women and men, frankly, the more we elevate each other, the better the world becomes, the more opportunity there is, the more abundance that there is. I mean, I had women accuse other women, Council accusing me of clients to be able to, you know, she couldn't be getting those clients unless she sleeps sleeping with them, or, oh, she wears her skirts too short, or, oh, why should she get maternity leave because, you know, I never had maternity leave. So that very kind of scarcity mindset.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosh, we could just talk about this forever. All right, but the whole subject matter as well, um, one around negotiation, but you, um, have the Seven Deadly Sins when it comes to negotiation. And so help, let's walk through them.

Okay, and I'll let you tell me if you want to jump in at any point. I'll just start going through them, and if you want to go a little deeper or have a question, just jump right in there. So, the first one is ego. And again, I think that competitive mindset we've been conditioned to. We show up, and in North America especially, we're terrible at this. We show up from a total place of ego. It's, "What do I want? What do I need?" Right? It's about how I look. And ego shows up differently. A lot of people, and I find women in particular, don't think they have ego when they show up needing to be needed to be liked is a form of ego. So, take a look at if you're talking too much, trying to control the conversation, focusing on your needs, wanting to be liked. These are all indications that ego is in the house. It is the kiss of death in a negotiation. I alluded earlier, if you show up from a place of absolute curiosity, trying to find out, at least understand, and if possible, meet the needs of the other party, their stated needs and the unstated needs, That's going to get you way further ahead than the ego. The next one is attachment. We tend to get really attached to our outcomes, right? Like, I want this. And I've seen so many deals go sideways because somebody got either too attached to what they thought they wanted and they walked away when there was actually a better deal on the table for them. Or alternatively, and I confess I've been guilty of this, have you ever been in one of those where you get get so attached to the idea that you keep negotiating way past the point where it makes sense for you anymore. Yes. I think we often stay in relationships for that reason, right? We get so attached.

And you almost talk yourself out of the deal that you wanted because you just kept talking, talking, talking.

Oh God, the house we live in now. I mean, and I should know better as a negotiator. I teach negotiation, right? But I just, I wanted this place and I knew we were getting jerked around, but I was so attached to the outcome that I negotiated beyond. I mean, it's worked out for us, thank goodness. But it was definitely not my best negotiating day. The next one is reactivity. And we talked a little bit about that. We tend to be very reactive, right? I mean, we are like, if somebody's a bully, we feel the need to sort of either push back or back away. And again, if you make that choice about who you want to be, then you can actually lean into the messiness, I call it, instead of standing back. If somebody's getting really angry, then you're going to be able to use that to your benefit by going, "Okay, let's take a step back here. What's just happened there? I've obviously said something to offend you. Let's talk about that. Tell me what it is. What do you need? What have I—" I have seen people who are impossible bullies to deal with that come with that reputation. And when you're able to manage that reactivity, you can get really, really smooth outcomes. And definitely, we were talking about intention. Choose who you want to be so you're not reactive. Because if you're the one who's being reactive, you've lost control over the negotiation. Love that. Love it. Next one, jumping straight to business. Again, in North America, gosh, we're terrible for this, right? We jump right in. We don't even bother with pleasantries anymore. There's no rapport building. And especially with our tech world today, so much of our communications are done electronically. And half the time, we don't even put salutations. So, I really get it. With my staff, I'm very careful as well. Always start saying, "Hey, I hope you had a great weekend." something to personalize. And definitely be intentional about building that rapport. Try and find a— rather than just the weather or the weekend though, to be honest, the best way is find some meaningful connection with the other person. Whether it's a shared interest or a hobby or something from your backgrounds where there's overlap, you're going to get much better rapport building and with it, better trust if you don't jump straight to business but spend a little time building that relationship. If it's a really big negotiation, try and go meet offsite in advance with where it has nothing to do with the negotiation. That's why team building has become such a big thing, right? Or golfing is, you know, can be huge. Sure. The other one, not listening, probably my biggest pet peeve and the biggest deadly sin, if you will, of negotiation. And, you know, we're, I think that comes from that conditioning that if we're talking the most and controlling the conversation, we are winning. In fact, you're way better to just listen. And we don't do it well. Waiting for your turn to speak, that's not listening. Taking copious notes, not listening. Processing your answer, not listening. Like truly give the space and time so the other person feels fully heard and seen. And then, when you speak, you're reflecting back to them. That kind of active listening where you're making sure because we're terrible perspective takers. So that way, it allows us to make sure, A, we're understanding but also that they feel heard. And just quickly on that, I call it elevated active listening, where when you're reflecting, and it's counterintuitive. Everybody's like, "Sydney, that's crazy in business. Why would you ever do that?" When you're reflecting back to the other person what you understand their position to be, frame it in a way that is even better than they framed it themselves. Be as generous as humanly possible. And they're like, "But then you're making the argument for them." But there is an incredible softening that happens when you do that. Takes the wind out of their sails and they're like, oh, she, she did get it. And then they have to take a moment to sort of reevaluate. And it almost always triggers reciprocity, right? We're wired for it as humans. So if we give that respect, you will in most cases find that you'll get that trigger, that reciprocity, a little more respect back from them. That's awesome. I love that one. Yes, I love that one. One of my favorites. And our last two really quickly are integrity and clarity. And with integrity, I mean it in both senses of the word. Obviously, be honest, show up in integrity, have the normal use of the word. People think of that moral integrity. But I also love the interpretation based on the original Latin integer, meaning to be whole in ourselves. When we do things that are out of alignment with our values, we are not in integrity. So really One of the biggest deadly sins again is taking positions or doing things that are inconsistent with your own value system and stepping out of integrity. And that will serve you well to remember. And with clarity, just be really clear about what you want and be flexible. Know what your bottom line is that you don't want to get moved off unless circumstances change. Know in advance what concessions you think make sense that you're going to be able to strategically put on the table rather than getting backed in the corner and making concessions that don't serve you.. But also, as I alluded to earlier, think about the relationship outcomes and the process outcomes in addition. If you've got clarity around that stuff, you're going to go much further. So, those are the 7 deadly sins: ego attachment, reactivity, jumping straight to business, not listening, integrity, and clarity.

Oh, okay. All right.

I've just been talking so much. I just thought I better just give it a pause.

No worries. I love, I absolutely, absolutely love that. I also love the statement you made about leaning into the messiness. Yeah. And so that messiness is just the fact that, hey, it's okay if you don't have it perfect, or, you know, like, how, how do you visualize messiness?

Um, messiness on both frames. I think if you've acted out of alignment or you know that you got in a reactive place, rather than just trying to skip over it— it's messy, and we were like, we want to pretend it didn't happen, right? So just lean into it and go, you know what, 'Let me just take a second. I realize that reaction, that's not who I want to show up as in this discussion, right? That doesn't serve us. So, let's rewind and do it.' So, lean into that. But especially lean into the messiness from the other party. So, we tend to back away when we get exposed, when we're in the face of bullies, people who show up with anger, people who show up crying. We're like, 'Oh.' There is gold there, Bernadette, when you lean in that and say, 'What's happening here? Can you tell me a bit about what's triggering this reaction?' Right, that is in my experience where you really can move the dial in getting those best outcomes. And also the other key to that is don't wait, do it quickly. Think of it like a red wine stain on a white carpet, right? I mean, if you leave that too long, that baby's not coming out. Whereas if you get to that stain right away and take some appropriate steps, you're going to be able to get rid of the stain. So do that in your negotiations or difficult conversations.

Well, and I think that's really valid too, because I was that person who— I, I thrived on creating chaos. I thrived on people being scared of me. And, um, you know, now, you know, 10, 12 years later, I tell people, if you want to shift that person, if you want to, you know, kind of confront that easily, just simply kind of almost feel sorry for them and be like, what's happening? What's going on? What's, what's coming up for you right now? And, you know, I, I mean, I'm using those lessons now. Yeah. At the same time, to your point about the messiness, if, you know, people confronting that messiness right then and there, especially in a negotiation, does have huge advantages for them in being able to get through it and push through it and to have a good outcome for everyone involved.

Yeah. Think of yourself like a doctor, right? I mean, it's funny because, you know, if doctors always jumped away from the messiness, we'd never get a diagnosis for anything. It's all the crap, you know, all of those nasty, horrible symptoms that they need to dig into to be able to diagnose the problem. And it's kind of the same in negotiations. Get as much of that messy crap on the table as you can. Because then you can sift through it and come with a solution. And I was laughing, as you said, about who you used to be, because, oh my gosh, that was so me thriving. And I remember just very quickly one hearing I showed up as his counsel, and unbeknownst to me and him, my uncle ends up showing up, and he's going to be the lead witness on the other side for the thing. And they start talking to him and the counsel on the other side about me, not knowing that it's my niece. And he came out like, why did— like, who is this woman they're describing? Because they— I'm sure, no doubt they said, watch out, she's a bitch.

She's a, you know, a total barracuda.

She will annihilate you. So it was, uh, it's nice to be away from that approach to life. Oh, isn't it?

Oh my gosh, it is the most liberating thing in the world, and it will help with someone's negotiation if they would just apply the feminine aspect. Um, and I love you also say that, you know, they have all of these skills and traits and qualities already within them. And all you have to do is start to kind of tapping into them and leveraging them. So help us understand, you have a free giveaway. Yes. So help us understand what that is and what they'll gain from it.

You bet. And the original impetus for this giveaway was tied to my book, right? So with the book, I created an Art of Feminine Negotiation workbook with a bunch of additional resources. So as you're reading through the book, I wanted people— it to be an engaging experience. So, what I want to offer for your listeners is that resource, which it's got videos included in it. It's got the workbook itself. And even if you don't get the book or ever read the book, frankly, it will still be a valuable exercise for you in terms of insights. What are some of the problems, the kind of conditioning that's been holding you back that you weren't aware of? So, just go to Art of Feminine Negotiation book. Book.com. So www.artoffemininenegotiationbook.com. Just get yourself linked in there and you'll get access to the full resource kit as well, which will be a great kickstart for you if you're looking to change to get more of what you want in a way that maybe serves you better. And stop thinking of it as a liability and lean into your feminine as your secret weapon. I love it.

All of that. And the fact that it's work, life, everything is a negotiation, as you will say. So thank you, Cindy, that so much. I Jade, this has been fabulous.

Thank you, and keep doing the great work you're doing.

I love, love, love it. Oh, why, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. What a powerhouse conversation with Cindy Watson of Women on Purpose all around the 7 deadly sins of negotiating. But before we even got to them, we talked about the 5 W's of negotiating or preparing and then living in that negotiation in order to ensure you know, the best outcome. And so she went through the who, what, where, when, and why of the negotiation. And it's something that you could be using, whether it's a work situation or a life situation, to really ensure your success and to help you lean in to your feminine side when it comes to negotiating. And then she discussed reframing success, reframing our mindset around what is success. And by doing so, how that opens up intention, opens up confidence and focus that you put on, uh, that conversation. That what you might even perceive as conflict or a difficult conversation can be one that's really approached with that confidence and intention and focus to be far more successful than you were previously. But she also had to get into the unconscious biases, not only of the gender— male, female, who's better at negotiating, but even women with women. And therefore, what can we be doing differently as women to support each other and to help everyone rise up as a result? Then she got into some myths around negotiating and what, especially as women, we've been told as we've come up, not only in our lives, but in the workplace around negotiating. And she's busting those myths and setting us up with some great tools that we could be using, the 7 deadly sins that we could be using and paying attention to in order to be far more successful in our negotiations. And then she talked about leaning into the messiness of negotiation. But all around the 7 deadly sins of ego, attachment, reactivity, jumping into business, not listening, clarity, integrity, and talked about how you can kind of flip them all on it, on their head, in order for you to be far more successful in your negotiation. So take a listen again, take notes, share it with your friends and colleagues, and feel free to always reach out to me. You can go right to @BernadetteBoas on LinkedIn, and I'd love to hear your comments. Love to hear your questions for, for Cindy or even myself all around the area of negotiation. All right. And then thank you so much for being here this week. And I'll look forward to having you right back here for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye.