The Leaders Role in Psychological Safety with Minette Norman and Karolin Helbig

Are you forming a highly inclusive and most innovative team? Have you implemented psychological safety into your organization and on your team? Today I'm talking with Minette Norman and Carolyn Helbig, authors of The Psychological Safety Playbook, all about what it takes to lead more powerfully in the workplace by being more human. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders. By showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse experts each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love that will allow you to create the riches in your work and life you deserve. So let's do this! I am so excited to talk to you two ladies. Look how gorgeous you are. Welcome to the show, Minette and Carolyn. How are you?

Thank you.

We always have to know the order in which we're speaking because otherwise we will both speak at once.

And that's okay.

I'm from—

I'm one of 12 kids. I'm completely accustomed to it. But yes, we will make sure we do that. Carolyn, tell me, where are you residing at the moment?

Yeah, I'm sitting in Germany in Bonn.

How about you, Minette? Where are you residing?

I am just north of San Francisco in Marin County, and we have a sunny day and it feels like spring is coming, but you never know.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's gorgeous here. I'm in Atlanta. I love, absolutely love this subject of psychological safety. Yet I wonder how many people listening and viewing really understand what it is and the impact it has on themselves, their teams, and their business. So Minette, if you would help us understand what exactly is psychological safety and what do we really need to know and understand about it?

I'm glad you're starting with that because I feel like a lot of people think of it as a highly academic term and maybe something they don't fully understand. And we really like to bring it down to a deeply human experience that we all have had or not had and felt the absence of. And what it is, is it's a feeling, it's a belief that when you're in a group of people, that it is a safe place for you to ask a question, to tell the truth, to challenge the status quo, to make a mistake, knowing that you're not going to be excluded or thought of as like that strange person that we don't want to deal with. And that this is really an OK place for that. And it turns out that it's so important because research has shown that in psychologically safe teams, the teams perform better, they're more innovative, and it's really essential for creating an inclusive team environment where everyone has a voice.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, to the point where I'm just kind of stumped that we have to talk about this, right? But Carolyn, why is it that psychological safety has taken such center stage over the recent, I would even say months, but the last several years?

Yeah.

Actually, the term psychological safety has been around for quite some time. Psychologists study this since end of last century, basically. But the key role it plays in teams and team performance is just about to, to become clear, and companies realize how central it is for team performance. Probably also because pressure is rising, times become more challenging, and really companies need to be more innovative, and also teams become more diverse. And this is also a crucial factor why psychological safety is such an important element now in companies. And companies start to understand what research showed and try to implement it. However, that is not easy.

Right.

I can only imagine because it sounds simple. That's why I was so flabbergasted from the explanation of even what psychological safety is, because you would automatically assume that people should, you know, shouldn't be afraid and shouldn't be intimidated. And yet I can only relate that back to my own, especially corporate experience, that, oh, there was many times where I felt that way. And quite honestly, I created those environments. So what, what has caused actually the real breakdown, or has it been a longstanding issue But Minette, what has really caused the breakdown in workplaces to be able to embed psychological safety into their organizations?

Well, I think there's more appetite for it now because there's been so much press, certainly through the pandemic, right, of feeling like we need to be more empathetic to our employees' experiences. There was quiet quitting and the great resignation, right? And so I think there's just been much more awareness that The culture of a workplace is critical to attract and retain great talent. And that has been an issue for a long time, but it's really come to the forefront, I think, in recent years. So, I believe that many companies see it as like the latest buzzword. We're going to create a psychologically safe environment. The problem is, and this is why Carleen and I wrote this book that is coming out on February 22nd, The Psychological Safety Playbook, people don't know what to do. They may believe in it. And I think most leaders really believe, I want to create the conditions for a safe environment where everyone can contribute. The problem is there isn't a how-to manual. And that's what we've written. We've tried to break it down into actual tangible practical steps that you as a leader can take that are going to make a big difference in the employee experience and the contributions of everyone in the team. And it's not, It's not something you flip a switch on. And I love— I've been in environments, certainly I spent 30 years in the software industry where you come into a room and whoever's leading a meeting says, this is a safe space. Does anyone actually believe that until they witness that it's safe? No. So it's not like by saying it's safe, it's safe, or by flipping a switch, it's safe. It takes ongoing daily commitment and work. And yet we break it down into things that are doable.

Right.

And that, which is absolutely awesome because the biggest challenge is people want to do the, to act on these things, want to take part in creating these type of cultures. They're just not sure how. So Carolyn, what would you say based on your playbook? And I put the link and for those listening, you can always go to the psychologicalsafetyplaybook.com website and get your own copy of the book, which is coming out soon, which I'll ask them about. At the same time, learn more about not only these ladies, but the work that they're doing. So Carolyn, what would you say is the most important step to take to start implementing? Because you have to start somewhere.

Yeah, exactly. And actually, there is no one entry point. I think the one entry point is that you first of all realize how crucial and central psychological safety is and kind of make a commitment as a leader. And this is maybe more than it sounds because it really means that you let go of the traditional leadership model and embrace a new one, a new one where it is about being more human, having the courage to be vulnerable, for example, having the courage to admit mistakes, Having the courage to admit that you don't know all the answers and invite everyone to be themselves. This is maybe easier said than done. You talked about the breakdown. Actually, this concept of psychological safety is a very delicate— it's a delicate thing, psychological safety, because we human beings have a very sensitive radar for threats. And we really, our brain is a risk-avoiding machine. Our brain is, the purpose of our brain is to keep us safe, safe in life.

Right.

And any risk is something we avoid. And that was very useful in former times when we had to run from tigers and so on. However, now the risks are not the tigers, but our managers. And we have the same feeling of threat, and we have the same reaction, fight, flight, freeze. And this is something leaders have to overcome. So they have to overcome the risk-avoiding brains, their own and those of their team members, and invite everyone to take those risks. And to make it safe to take the risk. So not punish mistakes, for example, embrace failures and not enter the blame game. And this is something which is not easy. However, we offer really a rich variety of entry, or not entry points, but maybe moves you can take, the actual very concrete steps to foster psychological safety. And this can be how you speak, how you listen, how you run meetings. So whatever you do, this is all contributing to psychological safety.

Sure, absolutely. And so many things are coming up for me right now, I have to tell you. So, Minette, what, what, you know, everything that she said for me comes to self-courage. One, having the courage and working on themselves so they also have the confidence, uh, to be able to even, um, raise up their own fears or insecurities or disagreements or opinions without being retaliated, let alone to then instill to other people, right, that they should be safe to do it. So what is that one— what is that other thing that someone can do to really work on courage within themselves that then gets relate it to other people.

Yeah, and we actually have a whole chapter on which is called Communicate Courageously, which is about that courageous self-awareness. So I think maybe if you would say one thing, because there are many, but if I would have to say one thing, it would be as a leader to invite other perspectives by saying things like, what am I missing? What have I not thought of? And those phrases are really powerful because what you're showing in the moment is that you may be the most senior leader in the company. And at the same time, you realize that you do not see everything. You have your own implicit biases. You have your blind spots as all human beings do. And you are inviting different and divergent perspectives. And so it's practicing saying those words and meaning it. And then the follow-up to that is when someone does have the courage to challenge you, that you react in a way that shows appreciation for the challenge rather than defensive fight, flight, freeze, you know, when someone does challenge you. So it's that combination of the self-awareness, the inviting the dissenting or different viewpoints, and then reacting in a positive way when you get that kind of feedback.

Right, right. And is that all wrapped around just asking questions for engagement and understanding of what's going on within the people around them, Carolyn?

Asking questions actually is a big part, showing curiosity, genuine curiosity. However, there's also the flip side, really listening, for example, not only asking questions, but then also listening in a much more focused way than we usually do. What we usually do when we think we are listening is that we are not really listening. We are not really listening with full attention, not distracted, not preparing our response really with the intent to understand the other person. And that's something which is really crucial to do in order to really cultivate such a climate of psychological safety in the team.

Do you cover, Carolyn, I'll go back to you, but do you cover what can someone do to actually work on their active listening? Because so many people do just listen to respond. So does your playbook, which I love, the Psychological Safety Playbook, does it touch on also what they can do for those subsets?

I'll call them. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Are you looking in my direction? Yes, absolutely. We have, as we mentioned, Minette mentioned this whole chapter about Communicate Courageously, and we have an exact chapter, a second chapter about managing the art of listening.

Great.

Yeah. And this is not only kind of the rhetorical tips and tricks about, like, I mean, active listening is something you could practice without really meaning it. And in our chapter, we explore what you— because it has to do with your attitude— what you can do to become a great listener. And this is going much deeper than just rhetorical things like, uh-huh, uh-huh, and replying back what you heard in your own words and so on. So it's really a deep-down shift in your mindset. And this is what I mean, it's a shift in leadership um, in the leadership model that we are proposing. It's really letting go of the traditional way we are leading teams and embracing a different way of leading, much more humble and much more human and much more interested and empathetic with others.

I love that, more human. So, Minette, You do talk about how, you know, we all need to be more human, you know, in the workplace. What does that look like? Because people will, you know, I can imagine, will probably roll their eyes just because they don't know and they're uncomfortable about that. But what would— how would you explain what it takes to being human?

Well, you know, first of all, it's just that we are imperfect. We are all imperfect. Every single human being is an interesting and imperfect and beautiful being. And to embrace our Perfection as a leader and to take— like, one of the things we actually say is to take off the mask of perfection, right? Because there's this leadership model that has been, you know, traditionally what we think of as leaders is that leaders are strong, leaders are unflinching, leaders are decisive, and when they make a decision, they go full steam ahead. And what we're proposing is that, yes, those things are important in leadership, and at the same time, you are human, and people will connect with you more and respect you more if you show that you're not perfect and you're not an automaton and that you have emotions too, and that emotions are not a taboo in the workplace. We can't turn off our emotions, neither you as a leader nor your employees nor your peers. And so to embrace the fact that we have emotions and to use those emotions, those emotions actually intelligently, so that when we are getting upset about something, instead of just reacting automatically and biologically, whether it's fight, flight, freeze or something else, We're actually saying, hey, let me think about this. Why am I getting emotional and what's behind that? And how might I share this in a way that's appropriate, but that connects with people? And so for us, human leadership means that there's a deep human connection with everyone around you and that you're not up on a pedestal. You are not separate from those who are on your staff or in your organization, but you are a human being like everyone else and you care about others on a human level.

I absolutely love that, ladies, because I often talk to people about the fact that we're not robots. Because I went through a phase where I absolutely almost had a nervous breakdown because I just felt like I was expected to be a robot, and therefore I was operating as a robot. And yet I had all these emotions, you know, in my— at work and in my home, and I just didn't feel like I was able to express them. So I'm, you know, one day I was just like, I am not a robot, I am a human being, please understand me. So I just— it just brings up so much for me. Um, I absolutely love, love, love this. So Carolyn, I can only imagine, um, that as much as it is trendy, so to speak, and we're, you know, we're hoping it's not trendy, we're hoping it's a long-term platform, and it needs to be. But are there individuals that where you can go into an organization, not necessarily at the CEO top level, but can you— is it successful to even go in to a vice president level or some other level to do this work in hopes that then it spreads to the rest of the organization? Or is this one of those things that absolutely requires the buy-in, support, and advocacy from the top all the way down?

Yeah, that's actually a great question. And for sure, it's very helpful if the C-level really has psychological safety on the radar and really has a commitment and makes sure that this is something where the company's culture is shifting towards. However, this is not prerequisite. Our conviction is that everyone is a leader regardless of the formal role, regardless of hierarchy. So every one of us has much more influence on the people around us than we usually think. And every one of us is part of teams. Every one of us is part probably of different teams in agile organizations, for example. So our book is not addressing C-level, is not addressing to leaders, is actually addressing to everyone because whatever we offer, this is something every one of us can practice to increase psychological safety all around us. So teams consist of different people and all these people need to shift towards more psychological safety and towards embracing these new ways of acting, behaving, behaving, speaking, listening, and so on. So it's really independent of hierarchy. However, for sure it helps the higher up you are in the hierarchy because then people will follow you. And this is also something we underline, that the leader is really setting the tone. And that's the reason why everyone is looking at the leader. And if the leader is courageous enough to be vulnerable, then everyone can follow. However, it's not working the other way around.

Right, right. No, no, I absolutely agree. And I'm just envisioning, you know, that because there are leaders in very significant roles that are not very courageous, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, you know, so for anyone, you know, when, as you're listening and viewing this, definitely understand that you should be acquiring this. Carolyn, you made a comment about anybody can learn this or can, you know, instill this. I would have to say anyone and everyone needs to do this and to embed this type of culture. And a first step you could take is actually getting their book, not only for yourself, but for your team, for across the business. And so I do want to emphasize, go to the psychologicalsafetyplaybook.com website and gain all that information. At the same time, I do want to ask you, Manette, With all of this, and I love how you, the two of you, are wrapping it around a movement to ensure that this isn't— it's not just about a book or it's just not about this new— not new. As Carolyn said, it's been around for a long time and it should be a natural part of organizations is psychological safety. But help us understand what your goal and objective is with the movement. That you have established, which is phenomenal.

Well, we feel like it's just a very nascent movement, but we're so keen on really spreading this because it's not, as you said, it's not about selling books, although the book is a great entry point. What it's about is changing the workplace in a positive way. And, and, you know, Caroline was with McKinsey for decades. I was in the tech industry for 3 decades. We have seen what it's like inside of companies. We've experienced it. And we know what it's like when you have a high degree of psychological safety. What's possible is incredible. But what we've also seen is it's rare. It's unfortunately too rare that you are in an environment where everyone can do their best work and really express what's on their mind. And we believe that if we can grow this movement across industries, across the globe, and it's for-profit, not-for-profit, education, government, it really applies to anywhere there are groups of people. We can transform how people experience work and interaction with others. And we, you know, we think about the movement of diversity, equity, and inclusion, which has, you know, taken on a whole new level of interest. Companies have taken a whole new level of interest. Well, it's all well and good to hire a diverse workforce. But if the diverse talent that you bring into your company doesn't feel that they as individuals are appreciated for their differences and they don't feel safe to share their unique point of view and their unique experiences, well, you're not benefiting from the diversity that you've brought in. And you will lose people because they're going to say, like, this is not a safe place. I cannot be my true self here, and I'm out. I'm going to find a better place to be. So we want to really change the world of work in a profoundly positive way. And we think this could make the difference.

Right, sure. And what are some metrics that business leaders could be tracking and measuring and reporting on, which is the key part, and then taking action, obviously. But what are some key metrics that you propose that organizations start embedding to measure the level of psychological safety within their organization?

Oh, is that for me or for Colleen?

Oh, I'm sorry, Minette. Okay.

Well, one thing you can do is you can actually have us and others, we're not the only ones, but there's a survey. It's a scan, it's called the Fearless Organization Scan. We can come in and measure psychological safety in a group. And we can assess that over time and we can give you a number. I don't know that a score in itself is that meaningful. But what's interesting is to see change over time. So, I would say don't just run a survey once. But if you really want to do it, Run it quarterly and see if then, if you take actions in between, you can increase the level. Or see what happens if teams change, do those levels change up and down? So that's one way is to actually measure psychological safety. But I think other metrics that are really important are things like retention and attrition. And especially if you start to look at underrepresented populations, that I think is a very important metric is not only you're higher, you're looking at your diversity metrics, but then you look at who do you retain, who leaves, who do you promote. I think it's really important to look at the equity too. And you see like, oh, are we only promoting a certain demographic? There's something wrong in our culture that we're not seeing everyone rise equally in proportion to our population. So I think there's lots of metrics to look at and they're related to diversity, equity, inclusion metrics as well. So look at the level of psychological safety and then look at all of those other metrics around your population. And if you're seeing strange patterns, like, you know, as we often see is only the white men are getting to the C-suite, what's going on in your culture? And who's not getting those opportunities? And who's maybe not having a voice at the table? They may be invited to the table, but they're not really invited to speak or to be listened to. So I think all of those things play in together. And I don't think there's a single metric that will give you the answer.

Yes, no, absolutely. I love that. So Carolyn, based on that and the metrics, obviously retention, attrition, they have positive or negative impacts. But I want to get down to the root of the real negative impacts, like, you know, that not having psychological safety, not having a safe environment for people to be themselves and to bring up issues and to to take on new projects, you know, apart from they'll leave the company, there are some personal, emotional, as well as business impacts, right, that it has on people and overall the business and the leader, wouldn't you say? And so what would that actually look like so we can create some pain for some people as far as, you know, what, what they're doing by not addressing this issue.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, leaving the company is maybe really already a very far-reaching step. Much, much before, you have decreased engagement, for example, you have increasing burnout, distancing from work and so on, not going, not not really being engaged. And these are numbers also that companies try to gather with the employees. However, often they are not really acting upon those. So they are measuring, but the question is what you do. You find out that this percentage of your employees is not fully engaged. They are prone to burnout and so on. So then the question is, what can we do? And this is something where we also see really a gap within companies. Either there is not a full commitment of really doing something about that, or they are not really clear about what can be done. And this is where our book comes in, because we offer very specific and very simple things you can do. And if you couple this with measuring, you can really see how you move the needle. And one of the things we also offer in our book is a whole chapter about meetings and inclusive rituals, because meetings are really kind of— this is where the culture of a company is showing. And this is something which you could easily do just after a meeting, asking if people felt included or not. So you don't need complicated measures and metrics and so on, but just making sure after a meeting, was it inclusive or not?

Yeah.

Well, and I think you bring up a great point from a manager/leader perspective. If they would just have conversations with their people and ask those open-ended questions about, all right, so how did you feel coming out of that meeting? Did anything get stirred up for you? Did you feel comfortable raising concerns or issues? Or did you have ideas that maybe you didn't raise? Yes. And why didn't you raise them? That's what you're getting to, right?

Yeah. And often it's a bit tricky because if leaders are asking the question, what gets in the way is people's sense of hierarchy and the fear of speaking up towards someone who's higher in power. So sometimes what we see is that people are not really open towards their managers, for example. So these scans Minette talked about, these are all anonymous surveys so that people can be sure this is not used against them and they can really be open. However, depending on the situation, if you as a leader really embrace this concept of psychological safety and you are really committed to change something and you may realize, oh my goodness, until now the meetings have not really been inclusive, Until now, I have not really done everything I can to invite diverse perspectives. Now I really want to change. If you really mean it, and you can, I'm sure you can enter then an open dialogue with your team members and invite team members to share their opinion. If they learn that you really want to grow and learn and develop,. And if you approach them in an attitude asking, okay, I have my blind spots, I have things I need to learn, help me learn, and you are not punishing people for speaking up, then I'm sure you can have such an open dialogue as a manager as well.

Right, right. No, absolutely. And Minette, um, psychological to me is obviously for me for me is all the emotional. I remember myself, I was stressed out, I was eating too much, I was drinking too much. I was like sitting, laying on the couch versus being productive at my desk as a result of, you know, a bad culture, culture that I was wrapped up in. Do you find that companies are really looking at purely the psychological element of this conversation, of this issue? Of what damage is being done to their people if they aren't creating a safe environment?

It's a really interesting question. And I don't know, I have a yes/no answer to that because I think it varies company to company. Some companies are looking at it as just like, how do we get better performance? How do we retain people? Some, I hope, are really looking at this. I mean, what you're talking about is trauma. Like, people are experiencing trauma in the workplace and in these toxic cultures. And I've been through that and I know what it's like and it is devastating. And you can't, as you said, you're lying on the couch eating bonbons or whatever it is. You just can't function because you are so beaten down by being in a culture that doesn't want to hear from you. Or like every time you try to speak, someone interrupts you or someone rolls their eyes when you say something. Those things have a cumulative effect. So I certainly hope that companies are starting to look at this and looking at like, a lot of companies have been looking at wellness and mental health to some degree, which they need to do. To do more of for their employees. But it often stops at like, oh, we're going to have a gym membership, or we're going to have, you know, a hotline so you can talk to someone. But it's really, you know, if you want to do this work, you need to dive deep into your leadership training, your culture, how you behave in every meeting, what are the acceptable norms and what do you not tolerate. And this has to really become ingrained in the culture because, yeah, otherwise people are going to keep having these truly traumatic work experiences that are harmful to them. And you know, as Caroline said, the burnout is severe. And so I hope, and this is part of what we hope to change, is that leaders at every level care about the well-being of their employees. And we do not want them to suffer. And you know, one thing I'll share that's really interesting from neuroscience is that when we experience the kind of pain you're talking about, which may be referred to as social pain, like, you know, I was bullied, I was excluded, our brains register that as pain. It doesn't matter if it's physical or emotional pain. It's just pain. And to our brain, it's one and the same. So, people at work are experiencing pain when you're in a psychologically unsafe environment. And you as a leader should be doing everything you can to eliminate pain for your staff members and your peers and everyone in your organization.

That's fabulous, fabulous, fabulous. And I would like to say that that's where we're going to conclude. But I need more. I want to ask each of you individually. Carolyn, I'll start with you first. Is there something we didn't talk about that's just in 30 seconds or a minute that is just something you would want to get across to those leaders listening around the critical nature of psychological safety?

I think we touched upon really all the important stuff. Maybe Maybe just adding to this notion of we really need to shift our understanding of leadership. What we need are leaders who are more and more self-aware. So we haven't really shared the term emotional intelligence, self-awareness, but this is really central. So leaders who reflect, who take the time to become more and more self-aware because this is the first step before you can manage your reactions in a different way.

Love it. Absolutely love it. Manette?

I think that's great. A great starting point is, yes, start with your own behavior, your own self-awareness. And I'll just add one thing, which is that we've gotten questions and webinars and from other people that we've worked with in our client work, is this possible? Is it possible to establish psychological safety when you're in a virtual setting? When you're not in the room together? And the answer is yes. And in fact, there are lots of tools that will make it easier for you to create a really inclusive and psychologically safe environment, including online whiteboarding and chat and all of these things that really do invite more voices. And I will just say that Caroline and I have been working together now— we met 2 years ago— we have never been even on the same continent. We have written this book together, we brainstorm together, we sometimes argue, but not too much, but in a really really polite and kind way. And yet we can challenge each other. And we've done it all online. And so I don't want people to think, oh, unless I can bring my team together, we're not going to be able to work on this. You can do all this work remotely.

Quite honestly, it's an excuse. Yes, it's an excuse. It's an avoidance. It's an avoidance. And I know I absolutely love that. And absolutely, absolutely. And because I love what you said about To summarize, I love what you said about it's pain. If we aren't addressing this, you know, and providing this psychologically safe environment and culture, we're creating pain for our people.

Yes.

And that's, and that's why I wanted to get to the emotion of it, uh, because that's just detrimental to every, everything and every, every goal or objective that leaders have for their people and themselves and their business. Ladies, I can't thank you enough for this conversation. And I will be sure to include all the links so people can find your book at the psychologicalsafetyplaybook.com website. They can also join the movement there. They can learn about your services and everything that the two of you are doing. And I absolutely love it. And I thank you so much for taking your time to talk with me about it.

Thank you for having us.

It's been great, Bernadette. Thank you so much for inviting us. And people can also connect with us on LinkedIn. We love, we love engaging on LinkedIn. So we're—

and I'll make sure I have your LinkedIn, your Facebook. I'll have— I'll make sure all of those links are included on our show notes.

Great.

When it goes out. Thank you so much, ladies.

Thank you.

Thank you. Wow, what a great conversation. With Minette Norman and Carolyn Helbig all around the psychological safety playbook. But more importantly, the movement and the need, the must of psychological safety in the workplace. Your employees want to feel as if they are in a safe environment to have diverse viewpoints and differing opinions and to bring up their fears or or issues or challenges without being retaliated or bullied or diminished or demoralized in any way, shape, or form. And isn't that what each of us want as well as human beings, let alone as leaders? So some of my takeaways was just that. What is psychological safety? And what is really the impact? I wanted to get down to what is the impact, not only to the business, There's metrics that they talk about that can definitely be tracked and should be tracked in regards to that, but more so to the emotional, mental, spiritual, physical, psychological state of your people. Which brings me to what really hit hard, which was that creating fear in the workplace is really simply saying that you're creating pain. Fear and pain are one and the same. From a brain perspective. And I don't know that as leaders, any of us are looking to create pain and inflict pain on our people. And yet that oftentimes is what we are doing. And another thing was, they did talk about some steps that you could be taking to start instilling psychological safe environments amongst your team within the organization, whether it's at a middle management level or all the way from the top at the CEO level. And they talked a great deal about the need for courageous leaders, courageous leaders that will model the, the environment and the culture and the ability to feel safe and welcoming and included and valued within a very, you know, complicated business as it is in the environment today. So consider what you might have taken away from it. And then if you have any questions over and above what we talked about on today's discussion, then book a call with me and let's chat about it. You can go to coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall and let's talk. Maybe it's about your leadership style. Maybe it's about the ability for you to be able to really engage and connect and relate with the people around you. Don't feel as if you're there alone. Book a call with me. Go to coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall and let's have a conversation. All right, then be sure to go to sheddingthecorporatebitch.com, check out all of our episodes. And I am so thrilled that you were here with us this week, and I look forward to having you join us for the next episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye!