Turn Your Job Into Everything You Want with Kim Van Lue 〈Bernadette Boas〉

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that helps transform corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by helping them to shed the overwhelm and the challenges they deal with, as well as the fear, insecurity, negativity, and self-doubt that is holding them back from creating riches in their work and life. I'm Bernadette Boas with Ball of Fire Coaching. And today our guests will address the question many professionals have when they are taking on a new job, a new position, or even a new employer. And that is, how can I excel in a new role while meeting my personal needs? My guest today is Kim Van Loo, CEO, Talent Development Consultant, and Executive coach of North Spring Leadership Consulting. Welcome, how are you, Kim?

Hi, Bernadette, I'm doing great. How are you?

I am doing very well, thank you. Thank you for being part of the program. I am so excited to talk about this because I, I think it's taken for granted that, oh, someone starts a new role or a new career, you know, new job, um, or goes to a new company and they're in a significant position and they are going to be just fine. They're not going to have any challenges or situations that they have to deal with. So help us understand, based on the fact that you were an HR and talent executive, you've worked with many diverse organizations. What did you learn even about your own transition from into a new role or a new employer? That then lends itself to helping other people.

Sure. It is so interesting because there's so many resources out there that help you make that next leap, right? Whether that's, you know, resume or LinkedIn updating or interview skill training or, you know, headhunters who can help you make the right connections. But it's been really interesting to realize there are far fewer resources to help you actually transition successfully after you land the new job or the new big promotion or what have you. And as a former HR and talent executive in, as you said, Bernadette, a wide variety of industries, sizes of companies, and so on, time and time again, I would see folks who would struggle with that transition. And I think a lot of times, particularly your high-achieving people, can be very action-oriented. And so the theme that emerged was oftentimes one of two paths. Path 1 was, was someone who really maybe overemphasized action in the short term and underemphasized relationship building and understanding the culture. And so they might really succeed in that first few months, but then as they went to take on bigger, more complex projects or changes or initiatives, they maybe didn't really have the underpinnings that they needed to be successful. So sometimes that was option 1, or option 2, when it didn't go well, was someone who maybe read all of those things correctly and balanced them all well, but completely sacrificed their own personal needs. And most of us come into a job change because something's not working for us, right? I mean, sometimes maybe it's just, compensation or so. But most of the time there's a pain point. And so time and time again, I would see folks who personally maybe traded a headache for a backache. And that's really not why you go through all that work to find your new thing.

Right? Right. And did you experience any of these things yourself? Because you have held significant roles in multiple companies. So did you feel those exact things? So when it comes to relating to your clients, it's kind of like, oh yeah, been there, done that.

Yeah. I can say for me, I changed industries at one point, and even though I was still doing HR and talent management, there were so many organizational norms and organizational culture elements that were really different. And I had always thought of myself as being really attuned to those things. But I would say about 6 months in, I realized, wow, this has been a really challenging transition for me. And I think it was a mixture of really trying to understand and solve for those norms while at the same time be true to what I needed. And so I can absolutely relate, um, that, that transition for me was a much longer, um, time frame than what I had experienced anywhere else. And it wasn't all that different of a role, really. It's just there were other elements in that transition that really needed— I needed to work on them differently maybe than what I originally thought.

Right. Now, some people might think that, well, she's an HR and talent executive. And so HR kind of is the hub of personal and professional development in an organization. So she probably doesn't have the transition issues and the challenges that I have. How accurate or how completely wrong is that?

Well, I mean, I will say, I think that I am pretty attuned to this topic area because of the nature of the work that I've done. But that said, boy, would it be a false assumption to think that I get it all right. When it comes to your own career, sometimes it's really hard to see things, right? Sometimes you really need that trusted partner who can talk you through things. And I'll say that's also, I think, really a hard part about a job transition, particularly if you're going to a new employer where maybe you don't know anybody, you're still establishing trust. It can be difficult to determine how much you want to share, how vulnerable do you want to be. I think we're all striving to be authentic and vulnerable in our work environments. But sometimes when you're early in your transition, that's a little easier said than done, right?

Oh, I agree. Because, well, I'll ask you, why do you think it's easier said than done, especially when you're in the earlier parts of your career? Because I think it's important for those listening and watching to understand that we get it, or you get it. And therefore, what would you share with them?

Yeah, I mean, what really comes up for me, Bernadette, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, but what comes up for me is this fear of failure, right? You've made this big transition, or you've made a small transition, but you've made a transition. Change is hard. Change is great, but change can be hard, and you really want to be successful. And so this fear of failure, um, can sometimes really get in the way of going to your boss or your peer and having a candid conversation or asking for additional guidance on how to do something. Or even, I would say, allowing yourself time to think, because oftentimes we're so pressed to just go, right, and to get things done and to make that impression and to achieve that it can really impede our ability to stop and reflect and really take all the things in that you have in that new experience with this beginner's mindset. Set that it's very hard to ever get back again.

Yeah, yeah. Where does— because when you were just talking about like impression and, um, and, and it could be that it's a new role, but it could also be that it's a new role for someone who's been in business for a while, like, you know, in the workplace for a while, and all of a sudden their imposter syndrome sneaks in, right? You know, all of a sudden they take a new role, they take a new position, they take— they go to a new company, and what got them there, which was all the, the what I call riches, that, you know, the education, the experience, the, the, um, the expertise, they're all of a sudden doubting themselves. Do you find that? And if so, what do you share with your clients around, you know, kind of overcoming that before it bites them in the butt and it hurts them in any way?

Yeah, I mean, gosh, what a great question. And I am always amazed. In fact, I have a new coaching engagement that's just kicking off with someone, and imposter syndrome is one of the things they first brought up about, hey, I really need some help working on this. Um, it's, it's amazing to me because I have worked with so many executives over my career in large well-established, well-known organizations. And yet, I mean, almost without fail, there is an element of imposter syndrome for almost everyone that I have worked with, whether that's CHROs or CEOs. It's really interesting. And I do oftentimes with my coaching clients try to remind them of that, that this is a pretty pervasive topic for most people. So acknowledging it first. I think also having someone who, whether it's a coach or it's a trusted peer or a family member, but somebody that you can be really honest and candid with about that. I have a couple of people in my personal network that we really lean on one another to talk about those things and just to be able to get another point of view, right, on a situation. So Having somebody to talk to those things, talk through those things with and talk about them, not as much in an abstract sense, but in specific examples. You know, it can be— I had one client who had switched industries. She'd been very successful, but that industry switch was really giving her cold feet about speaking up in meetings because it was a pretty male-dominated industry, lots of very long-tenured people. She was fairly aware of her learning curve in the industry. And yet, you know, part of that learning happens from being able to speak up in a meeting and ask the question, right? So that you know. And, um, and she— we really had to work through some specific goals to help her create action around how she was going to get unstuck on that, right?

Right. Well, and would you— you set goals, but when you just use the word action, But do you give them specific, discrete actions to take? Like, you challenge them to the next meeting you go into, I want you to ask at least 2 questions. Is that the type of coaching and the type of guidance that you're providing? Because of the fact that what you said earlier is they're very action-oriented.

Sure, exactly. In that case, one of the things we put in place was really prepping in advance for the meeting. You know, she was a bit of a processor, as am I, so I can certainly appreciate that. And really ensuring that coming into that meeting, she had 1 to 2 topic areas where she was going to be sure that she made a point, right? Or sure that she contributed in some way. And, and really then, you know, stepping back and seeing how did that go for you and having that conversation. I will say for me in general, one of the things I like best about coaching is this action orientation and really that partnership between the coach and the client to identify what are the actions that you want to take? What are the actions you're committed to? Because, you know, I mean, self-awareness is really important and it is the first step. But boy, it's one thing to be aware and it's another thing to be able to go do that differently, right? To show up differently. It just takes practice. So creating those actions, I think, is really, is really key.

Yeah, I love that. One, it's one thing to be self-aware and it's the other thing to take action on whatever that awareness is, because someone can sit in self-awareness, but if they're not leveraging it to their benefit, then it could actually hurt them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fascinating. Um, there was one other thing that triggered what— something that, um, that you said. Oh, I know what it is. So when you said, you know, all of the you know, all of the executives that you, that you would work with, they all suffer with imposter syndrome. Does that include men and women?

You know, it's so interesting. I would say it is more prevalent in women, but I have worked with some really successful men, and they're less apt to call it imposter syndrome. Um, but they will describe many of the same symptoms, right? You know, just questioning whether they really fit in and questioning whether they are going to be found out, right, in some way. So a lot of the same things, but maybe not labeling it in exactly the same way.

Oh, that's so funny because it's so true. It's so true. Um, you had mentioned earlier fear of failure. Um, I, you know, I, I, I have this— I'm of the belief that if you were already ready and had everything that you needed for that next role or the next position, then it's almost like, well, you should be reaching even higher, you know, because if you, if you have everything and, you know, and therefore you're going to be successful, then you may not be challenging yourself enough. What elements or what traits are you finding in your clients when— and what would you suggest others do when it comes to having a fear of failure. But there should be an expectation that, you know what, you might, you might just make mistakes. So what does failure look like to these high achievers? And but at the same time, and not even high achievers, we're talking about starting a new role. And it could be at their, you know, at the beginning of their career or middle or toward the end. But what, what are you finding them kind of experiencing when it comes to failure? And then what do you help them do to overcome that?

Yeah, I mean, that point about failure really makes me think about this topic that we see everywhere around psychological safety, right? Because if you're in this psychologically safe environment, then failure has a really positive connotation in a lot of ways, right? Because it's about growth and it's about learning. And it's that saying of failing fast and failing forward, right?

Right.

And it's, it's where so much of the opportunity to really grow comes from. I was exchanging notes earlier this week with a former colleague on the topic of, you know, doing the work of the organization and that really growing yourself through stretch assignments, through opportunities to impact the organization that you're in, And, you know, for that matter, it could be a volunteer role in an extracurricular kind of capacity, but really taking advantage of those opportunities to stretch yourself can be really great tactics. I think what's hard about that when somebody is in a job transition, particularly if it's to a new organization or even a new department within an organization, is really that psychological safety piece, because we know that in order to get there, you've got to build trust. And that just takes some time, right? Like, it's going to take some time to really trust your new working team and your boss and to understand the organizational norms that are happening there and, and so on and so forth. So I think that one of the things that folks can do up front is to have some really open conversation about that topic of failure, right? About the topic of making mistakes and you know, let's, let's, let me get a sense for how that's viewed in this organization. And kind of really following that train of discussion to assess maybe what that means for you as it relates to your transition, or perhaps even your selection around a job transition.

Well, that's what I was going to ask you is if you propose that those type of questions and dialogues come even early in the interviewing and the due diligence or or prospecting stages so you understand the culture of the company that you might be going into.

For sure. And I think that's really important that, you know, because I have worked in such a variety of organizations and industries, I have really come to realize it is not a one-size-fits-all. Um, and so really getting a sense for what success looks like in this organization, what's valued in this organization, and getting really clear on how those things line up when it compares to what you personally value, which can be hard to do over time.

Right.

But investing the time and having the intentionality to really identify those things and determine where do you have alignment, where do you have gaps, and then what do you do about those gaps?

Yeah, no, I love that. Because do you find that The lack of that— so therefore you need to work with Kim because the lack of doing that creates a lot of the issues that individuals have when they go and take a new job or take a new position and they're so unhappy. And we're talking about the fact that how do you do, you know, how do you start a new job and maintain your personal needs? So do you find that break between the two as a result of not doing that prep work?

Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting. I find that so many people don't know exactly what they want, you know, and I, and it's so interesting. I think over our lives, there's, there's so many things that press on us. Um, you know, I've got two young children and there's moments where I really want to bring myself back to their ages. You know, they're, they're 11 and 13 because I do feel like they're, they're still fairly attuned to what they like. Right.

Right.

Um, And that's less so than they were when they were 5, right? Because they— I mean, young kids can tell you right away what they want, right? What they like, what they don't like. And then you particularly— I think professional women who are trying to do it all, there's so much, you know, there's so much of what do you, what do you like? And the question is, I'm not really, you know, the answer is oftentimes I'm not really sure what that answer is. So to your question, Bernadette, I do think really even in the job search, getting really clear about what it is that you want. And if you haven't done that, then, you know, there's no better time than the present to really get intentional about what are my values, what's important to me, reflect on what led you into the, the change that you're in now. Really, what are you trying to solve for? And I would also advocate really thinking about those times in your life when you felt really fulfilled, you know, when you felt like things were in flow, when you felt really good about where you were, right? What were— what was happening? You know, how can you step back and identify what are some themes maybe across those experiences?

Yeah, no, I love that. And is it because— do you find 100% is that they don't know, or is there any element that they're just hesitant or scared to acknowledge what they want because it may not meet expectation. It may not be, you know, congruent with what other, you know, expectations are and even what they feel that they should, you know, want or not want. And therefore they just don't really work hard to dig into it.

Yeah, it's so— I'm so glad you're using that word expectation. Because I was going to say earlier, that really is thematic, that people either they have not set their own expectations well, or there's been maybe some misalignment of expectations with what they thought they were coming into and what they did end up coming into. So I think those are elements of some of the pain we see when there is a difficult transition.

Right.

But to your point around what's important to people, what do they want, what do they value, I definitely think expectations, whether it's theirs or family members or societies or, you know, whatever it is that plays a huge role. And, and it's really interesting how often just that topic of expectations comes up as a theme in coaching engagements.

Right, right. Is that— and, uh, is majority of your work one-on-one, or do you do team or group coaching as well?

I— on the, on the coaching side, it's just one-on-one right now, um, but on the consulting side, there's some work where I'll do, you know, in like a cohort of people in more of like a formal learning environment.

Right. And is, is one key theme or topic you discuss expectations that maybe that group of people have of each other that they, that, you know, I have this expectation of you, what's your expectation of me? You know, is that expectation a prominent theme there as well?

Absolutely, yes. I've had a couple of engagements around team dynamics and team alignment. And I find that really working on those expectations, you know, getting really clear on how we're going to engage with one another, what success looks like, how we're going to address when things don't go well, whether that's addressing things through, you know, conflict management, or addressing things that, you know, where maybe we haven't performed as we wanted to, and kind of embracing that fail forward mentality. Definitely using those types of activities to really align on expectations is critical.

Right. Well, and something jumped out at me as well around what you had said earlier, but this part of the conversation, and that was trust that you mentioned earlier. And it was kind of bundled in, I believe, if I remember correctly, with the conversation of fear of failure. So how much does trust play into an individual's own fear of failure and trust in themselves that they are then X, Y, and Z.

Well, it's really— it's so interesting, I think, how much these topics do layer onto one another. So, you know, this trusting oneself, I think a lot of that does come back to really knowing yourself and ensuring that, you know, not to sound, you know, Pollyanna here, but ensuring that we're prioritizing time in our lives just to connect with ourselves. And I think that that's really hard. I think, you know, no matter what happened to you over the course of the pandemic, it was hard, right? Like, no matter how great your circumstances were, it was hard, right? And I honestly feel like maybe into 2022 was when people kind of started to come back into normal. And I've had so many people say to me, it feels like we've come back with a vengeance, you know, that there's no time and everything's, you know, go, go, go. And so this idea of like prioritizing connection with myself when we had 2 years of like really not a lot of connection with one another. And so I think there's a big priority on connecting with one another right now and getting back to normal activities. And that's all essential and important, but, um, really understanding like when things don't feel right to you, you know, not just brushing that off, but really dialing into that and sitting with that and figuring out, okay, why is that? What's, What's, you know, what's either— are my cognitive processes trying to tell me? What's my body trying to tell me? But how do I really dial into that? You know, in my mind, Bernadette, really gets back to your question of trusting yourself, trusting yourself enough to really listen to yourself and to acknowledge what you need.

Right, right. No, I love— I absolutely love that. And you would think that in 2020, 2021, when everybody was kind of, you know, well, they were quarantined and, you know, and they were isolated, there would have been a lot of self-discovery work done. Did you find that, or did you find that they were just too in their head about how hard it was? And now that's why everybody's coming, you know, out with a vengeance in wanting to connect with each other, but at the same time kind of feel themselves through what they had just been through for the last couple of years. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And my assessment is that folks were so discombobulated from this continued, you know, for 2020, I kept saying, gosh, it just feels like the goal line keeps moving, right? Because, you know, at first it was 2 weeks and then it was a, I don't know if anybody ever said exactly a year, but we were well into the year before somebody said a year. Right. And so, you know, it just, um, I think that folks were really struggling with, you know, when am I going to get back to normal? This, whatever normal is, right? Which I think, you know, could be its own conversation.

Right, right.

But I, so for that reason, I think that it was so disconcerting. I certainly do know of individuals, of clients who really took that time and embraced it and they came out the other side, you know, really much more attuned to what they needed. I tend to think that was more the exception than the rule. And, and part of that, I think, is there was such a need for us to kind of like care for one another, right? And so even though we couldn't be together, we were oftentimes really trying to find other ways to establish that connection or maintain that connection.

Right, right. Yeah, no, I would agree because I have to say, you know, my environment, my situation made it much easier for me than for many. At the same time, though, I was consumed with wanting to make sure everybody else was okay, you know, and that might be, you know, the service that we're in. But I just wanted to make sure that everybody was okay. And I, you know, you hope that everybody was taking care of each other.

Sure. And each other, honestly, I think that is so true for so many people who were in leadership roles in particular. And to your point, you know, some of that might also be lending itself to coaches and so forth. But I think I really observed a lot of leaders who felt this immense responsibility to be there for their team. And that could be, you know, a team of 2 or 3, or it could have been a team of hundreds or thousands, but to really be there for them in that way. And I think a lot of those leaders, you know, what's the saying, right, that the cobbler's children have no shoes kind of a thing. I think that there was maybe not as much of an opportunity to care for oneself when they were in a leadership role.

Yeah, no, no, that is absolutely— that's a great observation because that's absolutely true. They were just too consumed with kind of keeping the ship, you know, and, and all the people on that ship sane and, and floating. Um, at the same time, did you find through your work through that period that there was a great— speaking of, you know, kind of working some— helping someone take on a new role with personal needs. Did it become apparent the disparity between real leaders and so-called leaders because of those that did serve and support and then those that didn't necessarily step into that responsibility? Did you find that? And therefore, is that something that people going into new roles should be really be considering for themselves as to what kind of leader do they want to be, do they want to be and perceived as?

Yeah, what a great point. I mean, I— so two things come up for me on that question, Bernadette. One is just this topic of empathy and how I feel like empathy is like the leadership quality of maybe the decade for us, right? How do we How do we really encourage that in our leaders? And it's so fascinating because we're in this space where there continues— I mean, I know we've read things in the last couple of weeks about maybe the talent market slowing down and we may see some of that. But for the last— I mean, you know, really since, since into 2020, we've seen this great demand for talent. Right. And I think a lot of the movement that we saw over the Great Resignation related to how those leaders did in fact respond during the pandemic. So if they did respond with empathy, then oftentimes I'm sure that was helpful to retention and engagement. Right. And if they didn't, then I'm sure that was harmful. Right. I read today that there was an NPR poll that came out last month that said a third of Americans have changed jobs over the last 2 years. Which is a lot of people changing jobs. Right. And so as we think about leaders landing in new roles, I think establishing empathy as a core to how we show up, I just think it's really a new day. I think about like when I was in business school, one of the prevailing kind of theories of that time was Jack Welch's approach at GE, right, which was like up or out.

Yep.

And I'm, I'm very much a proponent for managing performance, right? That kind of more cutthroat approach is not really what we're seeing these days. And I think it's for the betterment of all of us, right?

I do too.

Let's embrace humanity. Let's embrace the fact that we are whole humans and that, you know, we need to view that, that employee as that whole person. And let's, let's figure out how we can best serve their needs and serve, uh, the organization's needs at the same time.

Right, right. Well, and that kind of bodes well into the idea that it's critical that leaders are measured on the quantitative performance, you know, revenue, profit, you know, the top line, whatever. At the same time, it's really even more critical that they find ways to measure one's soft skills, their leadership skills, the empathy you're talking about, wouldn't you say? And, and therefore, what would you suggest to someone walking into a new role and a leadership role, and they are looking to maintain their personal, you know, needs as well as the business needs? How can they kind of adopt and take on that style and that business acumen. So we are getting more focus on the fact that we're not robots, we're people, and it's just as important to take care of each other as it is to, to gain profit.

Yeah, I mean, I— what one of the ideas I have is around really, as you're in that job search, just even getting a feel for what does that organization measure when it comes to their people. Are they doing engagement surveys? If they are doing them, are they willing to share with you what their overall engagement what their engagement score was, or maybe what their action priorities are as an outcome of that engagement survey. Are they measuring turnover? Are they measuring regrettable turnover? How do they, how do they deem what's regrettable? You know, what are they doing around diversity, equity, and inclusion? I think a lot of those, those efforts can speak to where the organization is relative to really how it cares for its people, you know, and how whether it views its folks in a more holistic manner or not. And I think for leaders, you know, we have leaders that are really in positions of influence. And so I would also challenge those leaders, if you're in an organization and you see gaps in how that's being handled, well, then you can start it, right? I mean, you can create your own scorecard. You can share that scorecard to the folks around you that are the key influencers, whether that's up the chain or peers or what have you. I've been in, in roles before where folks were kind of waiting for people to tell them what to do. And I don't think it has to be that way in most organizations. You know, if there's a gap, you can step into that gap.

Right. Well, and it's almost like bringing it up, talking about Jack Welch and, you know, the '80s and whatnot. '90s. The whole idea too of people are our greatest assets has never been more true. In the past, it was all centered around productivity and, and performance, not necessarily people service. Whereas today, it really needs to be the focus on people service, and therefore all those soft skills of our leaders, as opposed to the fact that they can just drive quantitative results.

Absolutely. And I think there's also a generational element there, Bernadette, where we are hearing from our earlier career folks that there's different options available to them. Right? I mean, even with remote working, as the, you know, let's just say that's the only factor we consider, the world of, you know, where I could go work looks very different now than it did even 3 years ago. And so if I am working somewhere and you're not willing to see me as a whole person, you're not willing to kind of like meet me with— meet my needs around that, then I've got lots of other choices available to me if I'm in this kind of professional knowledge worker kind of space, right?

Absolutely. Wow. And yes, and to think that they do have so many opportunities that the number of jobs one used to have in their lifetime has now like tremendously increased, right? Because of the fact that the younger— what I loved, your term that you used earlier, earlier career, you know, they have, they have options and they'll just, you know, go from one job to another if it's not, you know, giving them what they need. Yeah. From a people perspective. So why do so many high achievers, though, repeatedly, you know, kind of make the same mistakes or they just kind of get overwhelmed even just after a few months of starting a new job, a position, or a company. But they're doing repeatedly having this issue, as opposed to, you know, learn, you know, make your mistake once and learn from it and don't do it again. But they're repeatedly kind of overwhelming themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I have had clients who, you know, maybe they get into, I would say, mid-career at least before they see that pattern. And they, you know, maybe even in college, they were always like running on the hamster wheel, right? And just really feeling like they couldn't get all the things done. They were always overcommitted. And then they get into their first job and it's kind of the same thing and so on. So after a few jobs, they start to realize, hmm, maybe I'm the common denominator here on why I can't seem to, you know, reach a balance. And I do think for a lot of people, particularly those high achievers, we are taught over our early adolescence into those college years that winning looks like an A on the report card or captain of the baseball team or whatever it is, get the scholarship, right? And that, that's kind of the key. The way you win is to do all the things. Right. And so we're conditioned to do all the things, and we see that repeated. We see, can I get the promotion faster than this person, or faster than they thought I could, or whatever your benchmark is. Um, and so then before you know it, I've seen this with numerous people, they're in their, say, mid-40s, and they look around and they're like, what am I doing this for, right? Is this really all that it's about, right? And, um, and so I think a little bit of it is, you know, again, getting really clear on what do you want out of your life, what do you want out of this season of your life, and then what's the gap between what you want and what you have, and how do you put some boundaries in place that allow you to get back to more of what you want. I mean, I've had some team members of my own in the past who I could not get them off the hamster wheel. And I mean, literally, the conversation would be, I see you burning out. If you could give me 50 to 70% of what you're giving me right now, right, I'd be thrilled, right? You know, what you're giving me now is amazing, right? But I'd like to be able to keep you long term, and this isn't sustainable. And so it's, you know, in my opinion, leaders in organizations have a huge impact on what that work experience is like. Right. But no one in your organization has a bigger impact on what your work experience is like than you do.

Right.

And so, like, getting really clear on me and, you know, what do I want? How am I— what do I need? How am I going to manage that? I think that's really the, the key to keeping yourself out of that cycle of overwhelm.

So I'm going to throw something at you, um, in regards to, um, the early career individuals and just this topic that we're having around personal needs, really understanding what it is that you want, um, and how to find that, if you call it balance, um, and take into consider— your consideration your personal needs. How— what is your view on quiet quitting, because a number of those advocates will say it's nothing more than we know what we want and what we don't want, and therefore we're creating these boundaries and creating these, you know, parameters, uh, and you're, you know, and it's not that we're lazy, and it's not that we don't want to work, and we don't— it's not that we don't want to advance, yet at the same time we feel it's imperative to our personal need. What is your take on it? I'm, I, I'm just very curious.

Yeah, um, it brings me right back to our conversation on expectations, Bernadette. You know, um, I, and I think in organizations there's oftentimes a pretty broad variety of expectations around what good performance looks like or what great performance looks like. I think You've got— it's been my experience that you've got some leaders who, you know, great performance really looks like those few individuals who are massively engaged because this is the key priority for them, right? Or because they've forgotten to prioritize anything else in their lives.

You know, who knows?

It could be either one. But whatever it is, they are always focused on work.. And I think you've got some leaders who that's the yardstick by which they measure performance. You've got other leaders who I think are more in my past, I would say pre-quiet quitting being this term of the day. I would just talk about like steady eddies, like sometimes you need a steady eddy who's going to come in and they're going to do their job and they're going to do it well. But they're going to leave at 5 o'clock and they're going to have other things that they're going to focus on. And that's okay. Right? Like, not everybody necessarily has to bleed the company's colors every day.

Right, right.

And I think, I think that's really, for me, that's the question is, you know, what are those expectations? What does great performance look like? What does good performance look like? How do we calibrate across the organization? And how do we make that really clear to people who are working with us or considering us? As an employer. And I would say that to job seekers too, that, you know, getting really clear on what are the expectations in the organization. And if the expectations are that you're going to be on 24/7 and you're going to be, you know, taking calls in the evening, or you're going to be working on Saturdays and Sundays, or, you know, whatever it is, does that match up for you? And if it doesn't match up for you, then let's get ahead of that and, you know, you know, figure out how we reset those expectations.

Right, right. No, that's fair. That's very— I mean, that's so logical, Kim. I mean, that's so simple, you know, simplified and logical. And yet, yeah, I got pulled into this conversation on this subject and everybody was riled up about it, but yet that is so simple what you just said. Um, expectations.

Well, it has been— I mean, boy, hasn't that topic of quiet quitting been rampant? And, and I've been so fascinated at, you know, the, like, almost everything right now, right? Like, there's these polarizing opinions on it, right? And I mean, to me, it's just a match of like, what are you willing to give, employee, right? And what are your expectations, employer? And is there a match? And, and I think there's a lot of things employers can do to either contribute positively or negatively to their environment that could either encourage quiet quitting or encourage high engagement, right? Like, I mean, there's an element of quiet quitting that to me just sounds like, you know, it's, it's maybe you're less engaged, maybe not actively disengaged, but it's your less engaged population. They're coming in, they're doing their job, but they're not, you know, they're not lighting the world on fire.

But I love what you said about the fact that, but we need those various types of styles, you know, Steady Eddie and you know, and then the A-type, you know, who are just going to be on their, you know, um, hamster wheel. And we need all of those. And so that's a great, great point, Kim, that, you know, instead of making a big deal like this is a huge movement that all of a sudden is coming out of, you know, the woodwork, it's actually been around forever. And we kind of need it because of the fact that, gosh, could you imagine being in a room with just a lot of me, you know, because I'm that, I'm that hamster wheel. I just keep going, going, going, going, going. Although I've learned over the years. But yes, we need that blending. I love— it's very logical and simple. Very logical and simple. What else do you have to share with us when, especially when it comes to for those individuals that are starting a new role that want to maintain their personal needs? You know, what would you suggest that they could start doing right now as they work into that new role or position, or even considering a new role or position?

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the first thing I would do is just really get clear on what's important to you and what you want. And, um, and that can be heavy work, you know. It's not always easy to figure out what it is that you really want. But journal, whether it's journaling, and when I say journaling, I don't necessarily mean pouring all your heart into a notebook every night, although you can do that. But maybe it's bullet journaling about like the things that you really find to be energy drivers for you or the things that seem to be energy vampires for you. But whatever those things are, you know, creating a mechanism that allows you to have some of those observations. Yeah. And to get clear on really what's important to you. I think that's a great place to start.

Yeah. Well, and it is because what better place to start than with you is what I'm getting from that.

Absolutely. Yes. Yes. I mean, for me, there's— I think that's probably been the key learning for me over my career has been in all the environments I've been in and now the environments I've consulted with, you know, there's just something about a certain number of people get together and you just have some challenges. It doesn't matter how wonderful and amazing and intentional and great the CEO and everybody else is.

Right.

We're just human beings. And for all of our richness, at some size, you start to have some interesting dynamics that come into play. And the best person to address your needs is you. Right. And so getting really clear about yourself, you know, what you value, what your tendencies are, And I would say also what your intentions or your kind of intended path is. Those are kind of 3 elements that I really focus on in coaching with folks.

Yeah. And, and, you know, yes, I mean, because why would you want to walk through life not knowing what you truly want and what's going to make you truly happy at 25 or at 75? And there's a lot of people— I mean, it took me till I was in my early 50s to finally go, wait a minute. You know, this isn't what I want. You know, what is it exactly what I want?

Right. And I think a lot of that work comes from the fear, right? Because, you know, there's a voice in your mind saying you can't do that. That's not in your menu of options.

Right.

You know, that you can't— that was a childhood dream, like whatever it is. Right. And so, you know, I do think it's work. I think it's it's to get real about it. It's some work.

Yeah. And it requires Kim. Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim. And I just— I do want to share too, though, that she does have a coaching intensive. It's a half-day workshop that you can be— or working session with her that she can help you kind of go from start to finish in regards to what it is that you're, you're trying to do. And including if you are looking to start a new role or position or even go to a new company. And how do you balance your personal needs with all of that? So go to NorthSpringLeadership.com, learn more about that there, or reach out to her on LinkedIn, Kim Van Luu. She makes it really easy. And definitely engage her and talk to her about how she can support you. Kim, this has been fabulous. I so appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Bernadette. It was really enjoyable.

You are very, very, very welcome. All right, everyone, northspringleadership.com. Uh, you can reach out to Kim Van Luu and learn all about what she does and how she can support you. And, um, and if you do have any type of question, um, from our discussion or beyond, then even feel free to book a call with me and, uh, let's talk about it. You can go to coachmebernadette.com/discoverysession, and, um, let me also guide you. And I just might, you know, guide you to Kim, especially if you are starting a new role, starting a new position, or going to a new employer, or a number of other things that she supports and provides services on. So you can always reach out at coachmebernadette.com/discoverycall and let's chat about it. But in the meantime, I will look forward to having you right back here next Tuesday, or wherever you get your podcast and videocasts. And look forward to seeing you for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Take care, everybody.

Bye.