We're Going to Camp - Negotiation Boot Camp with guest, Ed Brodow

Hello and welcome to Shedding the Bitch Radio, where you can discuss, debate, and get advice on how to discover and shed the bitches of fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negative mindsets so you can realize your dreams and life purpose and create and accelerate the riches you want in life. Join us here live every Tuesday at noon Eastern and dialogue with us at 818-572-2910. You can also chat with us at blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitch or share your stories on our website at sheddingthebitch.com. Whatever the bitch is that's holding you back from living your life to the fullest, it's not worth giving up the riches in life that you deserve. So call in now and let Bernadette Boas know what's holding you back.

818-572-2910. You are listening to Shading the Bitch Radio, and I am Bernadette Boas, and we bring to you each and every week, um, guests experts, as well as opportunities to get your questions, stories, and challenges addressed in all areas of your career, business, and life. Today's subject, because I had mentioned that the month of March was going to be all focused around some key business strategies and skills that you need to be leveraging, not only in the workplace, but even at home, so we've been talking this about sales. We've been talking decision-making last week with Dr. Gleb Tsypersky, and that was a fabulous program, so please go back and if you haven't had the opportunity to listen to that yet, please go back and do so. It was a great aha program because it taught me a lot as well about what really influences and impacts our decision-making. And then today we're talking to Ed Bordeaux, all-around negotiation. He's going to take us to boot camp. It's negotiation boot camp, and we're going to really learn about what holds us back as far as negotiating, what fears negotiation brings up for a lot of people, and then how to overcome it. More importantly, he's going to really get into it with us as far as what is the kind of the process of negotiation and how do we create win-wins for each other or whomever is involved in the negotiation process, and what is that process, so to speak. So before we get there, I just want to make a couple of mentions. We have some great guests lined up in the coming weeks. Next week, remember, next Tuesday, first Tuesday of every month, it's your opportunity to get your specific career, business, and life questions answered. So go out to Facebook or Twitter on Shedding the Bitch and be sure to leave your questions or your challenge there. And Deborah, who's out there, Deborah Parker of Parker House Virtual Services, she's out there watching for your questions, stories, and challenges as well as I am. And I will address them right away so you're not sitting around waiting for a month. But then we bring them right here on the Shedding the Bitch Radio the first Tuesday of every month. And you even have an opportunity to join me on the program calling in and really drilling into whatever it is that you're looking for, some advice, some tips, and sometimes, just sometimes, some tough love. So that's next Tuesday. And then in the month of April, we've got some fabulous women. This month it's been men, our fabulous men, and next month we have Gusty Sylvia Lafair joining us again, and she'll be talking to us about kind of leaving all your junk at home So it doesn't impact your success in the workplace. And then Kathy Bass is a return guest as well, and she'll be talking to us about how to amp up your brand. And then Abby Vega will help us just kind of take a deep breath and work our way into summer with a really clear and productive mindset. So we have a lot going on here, so be sure to follow the program. Go to blogtalkradio.com/sheddingthebitchradio and be sure to follow the program, and that way you'll get all of the updates regarding our past programs, our current, upcoming, and future as well. All right. So I'm going to take a deep breath. Deborah, are you on? All right. So she's probably working her way still into it. So I can't even initiate commercials. So we won't have any, and we'll just dive right into today's conversation, and I'll give you your rich question for today. Because we are talking about your ability to negotiate, which can make the difference between your success and your failure. Now, Deborah is on, and Deborah, if you can see the studio— I'm not sure why I can't hear you— we will use the commercials post-production, okay, and we'll embed them into the program afterwards so we don't have any further interruptions because We have a lot I want to talk to Ed about. So you're going to hear and listen and learn today about how to overcome fears of confrontation, the most important issue in every negotiation, the two crucial elements of effective listening, how to create a win-win relationship, and the key to defending against intimidation. And I think that's one area I know At one point in time, I got caught up in that whole fear of intimidation when it came— comes to negotiation. So, your rich question that I want you to think about as Ed and I are talking, and you are always able to call in to 1-818-572-2910, and Deborah will be sure to hook you into the program. If you have a burning question for Ed, about this whole area, then we want to be sure that you're getting your questions answered. But your rich question I want you to kind of embed and think about, and I expect we're going to get an answer during the program, but if not, then you have opportunities here and with all the information I'm going to share with you about Ed to reach out and make sure that you get that question addressed. Okay? So your rich question: What is the one challenge you have currently when it comes to negotiation for what it is that you want. So you're negotiating for what you want. Where do you get hung up? What's that one challenge that you deal with when it comes to negotiating? So think about that and then hashtag with us and hashtag negotiation or hashtag shed the bitch, of course. So hashtag negotiation, hashtag shed the bitch, and keep your rich question in mind as I introduce our guest and get right into this conversation.

All right.

Okay, we're about to go into Negotiation Boot Camp. Are you ready? Edward Doe, our guest, is the world's top spokesman on the art of negotiation. He is the author of 6 books including the business classic Negotiation Boot Camp. Ed is negotiating consultant to some of the world's prominent organizations including Microsoft, Goldman Sachs, Goldman Sachs, McKinsey, the Hartford, Learjet, the IRS, and the Pentagon. A nationally recognized television personality, Ed has been featured as a negotiation guru on PBS, ABC National News, Fox News, Fortune Business Report, and Inside Edition. Welcome to the program, Ed.

Thank you.

I was so looking forward to this conversation because it is an area that is often brought up to me who primarily our audience is female professionals whether entrepreneurial or corporate. But, we definitely have our peppering of men and they all ask me about negotiating and can we cover it and, you know, can we kind of help with the with the angst and the fears that come with it. But before we get into all of that, can you kind of tell us a little backstory? How did you get into the focus on negotiation as opposed to any number of other things that, based on your background, you could have focused on?

Well, I had the distinction of growing up in a very bad neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York, and in order to stay alive on the streets I had to learn how to negotiate.

Ah, wow. And so give us some examples so people can get in their heads about even as challenging as that is to live on the streets, what were you negotiating?

I was negotiating my life.

Yeah.

Well, no, look, you know, you're walking down the street and 3 thugs, uh, confront you, and, uh, you either try to get into a fight with them, which you're going to lose, or you try to talk your way out of it, right? So that's, that's where it all comes from.

Wow, wow, wow, wow. Well, and, you know, am I right to say that, um, you know, death and public speaking are up there as far as the greatest fears people have? But how close—

That's what they tell me.

Yeah.

How close is the negotiation, you know, skill that people fear and people kind of try to avoid as much as possible?

Well, the problem is one of perception. Most people in our culture think that negotiation is a contest. So a contest implies that there are winners and losers. And that means that you could be the loser. So when people start negotiating, they have all this anxiety because they're afraid they're going to lose. Now the way that you avoid that is by changing your perception. Instead of thinking of negotiation as a contest, we want to think of it as a collaborative— a collaboration where both sides work together in order to reach some kind of a common goal. Where everybody's needs get met in one way or another. So it's no longer the adversarial confrontation. Now it's a cooperative activity.

Right. So if I were to kind of provide a simple scenario to you, maybe you can help us out because I know, A, one, women, and two, when it comes to, for instance, car buying, and I was just through this recently with a friend of mine who brought me along so I could help her with the negotiation, but that situation right there is a very anxiety-ridden situation for most women. So help us understand how that really is a win-win because it always, you know, they do feel as if, well, the car dealership is in it for themselves.

Well, you mentioned one of the few areas that is not really a win-win.

Oh, oh, great, fabulous. Is there a way to make it more of a win-win?

No, there's a way to make it more of a pleasant experience, and that is to understand, you know, it's all about being prepared. Negotiation is 90% preparation. It's about understanding, you know, what you're doing and having information. So if you're unprepared to deal with a car dealer, it's going to be rough. But if you do your homework, it's really— it can be a lot of fun dealing with them because there's like a dance that they go through. And once you understand the dance and you understand that you're the one with the power, then it's really not a big deal. Right. Well, and when I say you're the one with the power, what I mean is it's your money. See, this is what a lot of people don't realize. You go in to buy a car, why, why should you be intimidated by them? You're the one— it's your money. You decide whether you're going to buy the car or not. They don't decide. So you're, you're in control of this situation. You follow me?

Yeah, oh, I absolutely follow you. Now, but at the same time, that still will leave some people, like even my friend, with some anxiety that, yes, I know they want my money, but they want as much of it as they can get. So in regards to your comment about the preparation, which I totally get as well, but using the car scenario, what more than just understanding what the car price is and what the competitors have. What, you know, what are things that people often overlook when it comes to negotiation?

Well, they overlook the rules of negotiation, the basic rules, you know, like where do you open in a negotiation? Um, if they're asking $25,000 for the car, if that's the sticker price, what should you offer? Um, you know, when should you give in? Should you give in at all? Should you— or should you get up and walk out? You know, these are all things that— these are strategies of negotiation that people need to learn. And by the way, in case you want to do a commercial, here's my commercial: people need to read my book Negotiation Boot Camp because I describe all of the strategies in the book. So someone reading my book can go into a car dealer and have a hell of a good time.

Right, right. Yes, and I do want to mention his— actually, I want to give you everybody— I want you to go to www.brodo.com, and that's B-R-O-D-O-W dot com. I also went right to negotiationbootcamp.com and saw all the information regarding his books and his webinars and his seminars and his presentations and his speeches and all the resources that he has. Remember, he has numerous books and he's been on numerous programs as an expert and he works with, you know, the top companies in the world. And so you can only imagine that Negotiation Boot Camp is his book and it would be packed with strategies and tactics for making the negotiation process, like he said, a lot more fun as opposed to stressful, as many of you may find it to be. I did it one time, and yet fortunately I kind of, you know, make the dance as well. What would you say are those other rules of negotiation that people should pay attention to?

Well, let's go back to the car situation. Let me tell you what I— let me tell you what I do when I go in to buy a car. I know— not only do I know what the dealer's cost is, but I also know what kind of incentives— dealers get financial incentives from the manufacturer that people don't usually know about. So if the car is selling for $25,000 and you find out that the dealer's price is $23,000, you think that the dealer has to make $23,000 in order to make a profit. But the reality is that on top of the $23,000 $23,000, the manufacturer is passing on rebates to the dealer. So perhaps the dealer may only have to cover $21,000 or $22,000. So you want to be able to go to that low figure, and you make them an offer. Actually, what I like to get— what I do is I say to them, what's your best price? And they will give me a price that I know is not their best price. So I say, forget it, that's ridiculous. I say, uh, you know, here's what I'll give you. I'll give you— and I'll offer less than I— you know, if I know that their bottom line is $21,000, I'll offer $19,000 or something like that. And they'll go, oh no, we can't do that, we can't do— so, um, you have to expect to spend some time going through this, and eventually you kind of get closer. And what I do is, if they don't come down to where, where I need to be, I just get up and walk out. Now that to them is absolute terror. If you're a car salesman or saleswoman and you've spent time with a customer, with a potential customer, and they get up and walk out, oh man, that's, you know, you're dead. So they won't do anything to prevent you from walking out. And if you do walk out, they may call you back a day later and say, well, you know, we decided to do such blah blah blah blah blah. But you see, once again, it's all predicated on you understanding that you have the power. And when they start playing games with you, like saying, well, I have to take this to my manager— and I had, I had one, uh, the saleswoman who said to me, uh, I need to have your credit card. We were just talking about it. I said, what do you need my credit card for? She said, well, my manager required— she want— my manager likes to see credit card to know that you're dealing with us in good faith. And I said something really, really polite in return, like, drop dead. I mean, it was ridiculous. I said, that's ridiculous. Don't insult my intelligence. That's ridiculous. Um, I've also done— I, I've played games with them. I, um, my former girlfriend was an actress, so She came with me and I had pre-arranged the signal with her where I kicked her under the table and she started to moan and make noises and, and groan. And I said to the salesman, I said, oh, my girlfriend is hypoglycemic, we've got to get her something to eat, we're going to have to leave. And that salesman went out of his mind. You could just see him going crazy. Oh no, what am I gonna— yeah, it was hysterically funny., and they wound up, you know, giving us a huge discount. And, um, so, you know, you can, you can make a game out of it, have fun with it, right?

But I think what you also said too, because I'm sure a lot of the listeners are sitting there going, oh my God, walking out, oh my gosh, but the walking out is also something that they have to prepare for, right? They have to know and write out kind of what is their goal, what it— what, what is their break breakpoint and, you know, then what are they going to do, you know, i.e., walk out? Because I, I just know that a lot of our listeners, women specifically, you know, kind of get very anxious when it comes to something like that.

Well, you raise another important issue, and that is the, the question of knowing what you want. And, um, my experience has been that most people don't know what they want. You go in, you're applying for a job, how much do you want? What salary do you want? What else do you want? Most people don't work that out in advance. Uh, you know, you're going to buy a car, what's, what's your bottom line? What's, you know, what's the most that you'll spend on the car? People don't, don't take time to figure this out, and that's, that's part of your, your preparation. You've got to know that, right? And then, you know, if they— if the dealer in the car— situate in a car negotiation If the dealer won't meet your price, then you have to be willing to just get up and walk out. Now this is not hard because, uh, it's, it's a motor skill. Your brain tells your legs, okay boys, get up, and you get up and you leave. You know, it's all this idea that it's difficult. See, that's, that's perception. It's, it's an idea that a lot of people have in their head. Oh, how am I going to do— I can't do that. Oh yeah, that's right. You're defeating yourself. You lost the negotiation before the negotiation.

Right. But doesn't that come down to someone's confidence and feelings of self-worth, that whether or not they feel, you know, that they can't walk out or that they're not the ones with the power?

Well, I mean, in a sense that applies to everything you do in life, doesn't it? I mean, having self-confidence and self-esteem. Yeah, of course it does, but that applies. I mean, everything in life is predicated upon that, you know. If you didn't have, if you didn't have a certain amount of self-esteem, you couldn't get out of bed in the morning.

Yeah, well, well, I'm not sure about that. I think there's a lot of people like walking around that, um, is lacking, uh, whether it's self-esteem or self-worth, or they're just, you know, anxious. And, and granted, I think I believe too, like you, preparation is a huge part of overcoming those fears and insecurities. At the same time, I do believe that that degree of self-esteem, self-worth is also, you know, having—

I would translate it for negotiation purposes into owning your own power. You have to own your power. And that's what I meant when I said, you know, you have— it's your money, you're the one with the power. When you go into a negotiation, you have to own your power. You have to have a sense that you're going to do well in the negotiation. It's called aiming high.

Right. So when someone is going in for a job or they're going in to secure a new client and this idea of power, they're thinking, well, no, they're the ones that have the job. They're the ones that have the check that they can write me. They're the ones— So how and what do you kind of train them to think about and to do when it comes to really owning their power in those types of situations?

Okay, good question. It's all, as I said, it's all about perception. If you perceive when you go in for a job interview, if your perception is that they have the job, so they have the power, you've already defeated yourself. The way you have to perceive it is that you have a skill that the employer needs so that the decision is yours, not theirs. The decision is not theirs whether or not to hire you. The decision is yours whether or not you should accept the job. So what you want to do is— and I always tell people this— the key to interviewing is to be the interviewer. Rather than the interviewee. Don't be on the defensive, take the offensive and ask questions. Like, you know, the essence of the question should be, why should I work for your company? Convince me.

Yep, yep, that's awesome.

People say, you know, I'm a speaker. People call me up and they say, well, we're thinking about hiring you as a speaker. Tell me why I should hire you as a speaker. You know, that's a ridiculous question. I never answer that question. Why should you hire—

why should you turn it around? You turn it around and say, why should I come and speak to your organization?

Well, I, I put it on them, and I'll say to them, well, let me ask you a question. What are you looking for in a speaker? Why are you hiring a speaker? You're having a meeting. What's the purpose of your meeting? So I turn it around and I put it on them. So when you're applying for a job, you know, the assumption is that they have a position that they need to fill and they're desperately looking for somebody who has the ability to fill that job. And that could be you. They're hoping that it's you. So what you want to do is, is Say to them, you know, explain to me what this job is and why, you know, why this is a good place to work and why I should consider your job as opposed to some of the other jobs that I'm looking at.

Yeah, that would certainly be a change in perception for sure for a lot of people.

And by the way, this would be a good point to answer a question that you raised earlier, and that is how do you— How do you deal with intimidation? And this is a big thing with people who don't like to negotiate. They're afraid of being intimidated. And that brings me back to what I was saying about walking out. I believe that one of the most important rules or strategies in negotiation is that you have to always be willing to walk out. Even if you may not walk out, you're willing to walk out because no one can intimidate you if you're willing to walk out. It's a matter of power. What is intimidation? If I intimidate you, uh, I'm, I'm, uh, asserting my power over you. Isn't that really what it's about?

Yeah, right.

You agree?

Yep.

Okay, so, so if, if you say to yourself You know, this is BS. I'm just gonna— I'm gonna walk out. I have no more power. I have no power over you. So that's, that's the key to defending against— to, to stopping someone from intimidating you is just having that in your head that if you don't like the situation or you're not getting what you want, you're going to get up and walk out. Now, where do you get the strength to do that? Well, the strength to do that comes from having alternatives. You got to have a Plan B. So I'm applying— you're applying for a job, uh, if this interview doesn't work out, what's Plan B? Plan B is I have another interview tomorrow for another job, right? So if I don't get this job, I'll get another job.

The hell with it, right?

That's your attitude.

But you— but you would also make sure that that's also following the fact that in that initial negotiation, through that preparation, they've also come up with all of their, you know, what are they willing to accept, what are they not. Like, all, you know, they've gone and done that kind of hot potato type back and forth to make sure they covered all their bases. And then what you're saying is then if the bottom line is this isn't meeting my goal, my objective, then I have to be willing to walk out having also a Plan B. Is that what I understand?

Forgive me, but you just confused me.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm not sure what you're asking me.

Well, what I'm asking is— so I'm trying to understand what you're saying is in a negotiation I should be, you know, prepared to go in with all of my, you know, my goals, my objectives, my negotiation, you know, highs and lows and wants and not wants.

Right, right.

And at the point of them not being met is when I, I need to be willing to walk out.

You, you have to say to yourself, look, you have to say to yourself, if I can't get what I want or what I need in this negotiation, I'm going to walk away. If I, if I can't get the salary that I demand for this company I'm going to walk out. So you have, you have your preparation. You say to yourself, okay, um, the salary that I want is $50,000. Um, they're offering me $40,000, and I, I want a minimum of $50,000. I prefer $60,000, but I, I, a minimum, my bottom line is $50,000. So you have to negotiate with them, and they come up to $48,000. But you've already decided that you're not going to take less than 50. So when that happens, you have to be willing to get up and walk out.

Okay, now I'm going to get a little, uh, tactical on you, only because I think our audience has asked me, so I think it'll educate them.

Um, you're going to get tactical with me?

I'm going to get tactical, like a tactical question for you.

Will it hurt?

And Yes, I hope not.

When—

so let's say on the idea of a job and this negotiation of the $50,000, but they come back for with just $48,000. What I get a lot of questions about as well is, well, I kind of then determined that $50,000 was it, and therefore I walked out. Yet at the same time, they're really not thinking through— and I wonder if this is something that you often find. They're not thinking through that that difference can be made up in, you know, whether or not they get more vacation time or they— there's other options that they could be negotiating on. So their preparation isn't necessarily complete. Do you find that as well?

Well, yes, absolutely. I always talk about that. There are things other than salary. That have a value, and it depends on what is important to you. So for example, having, you know, being able to work at home 2 or 3 days a week, that might be an important value to you, especially if you have children. Right. Something as inconsequential as having a parking space in front of the building, having a corner office with a window, having a certain title, you know, having a pension plan.

There are all—

there's a whole list of things that you should be considering in addition to salary. So salary is not the only thing you should be negotiating, but you should go in there with a whole package of things that you want. Yes.

But like you said, a lot of people don't know what they want. So does your— you know, do all the resources that you have, the books that you have, are you a resource for them to come and, you know, learn all those different things, those different elements of what can be included in negotiations or how do you go about kind of instructing people as to how to get kind of, you know, prepared in what they need to know in going into a negotiation?

Yeah, of course I talk about that in my book. Naturally, I mean, that's part of the preparation. What do you have to do to prepare? Now—

Right.

At no cost to your listeners, they can go to my website, brodo.com, and go to the articles page. I'm on it right now, and I have an article here called How to Get the Salary You Want: 12 Negotiation Tactics That Work. Right, so, uh, your listeners might want to go and study that, uh, that article. Uh, and here are some of the points. It starts out studying the situation, then it says know what you want. Then it says, what's important to you besides money? Are you willing to accept more intangible rewards? For example, vacation time, flexible hours, working from home, bigger title, more responsibility, stock options, pension plans, bigger office, and so on.

Right, right. Yes, everybody, I want you to know you really do need to go to brodo.com because He's got articles that cover— because we have audiences of corporate, of business owners, of stay-at-home moms, and he has great articles and resources, let alone his books, that you could be really leveraging to kind of amp up your negotiation talent, we'll call it. But, so please be sure to go to Broto.com. In order to look at that. And then at the same time, I love my— I love the experts that come on that make it really easy for you to connect with them. And so Ed's information, whether it be Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn, is simply Ed Burdough. So you can't not connect in with him, you know, should you need and want to, which I'm going to highly recommend that you do. And then if you ever needed to reach out to him, you can reach him at Ed@ www.edfordoe.com. All right, Ed, you also talk about— we talked about intimidation. Is there anything more around that before I moved on to another thing I think is top of mind to our listeners?

Is there anything more? No, I think I've said it all. I mean, you have to be in a position where you own your own power. Actually, there is something I should say about that, and that is that what a lot of people miss is they miss the inner negotiation. There are two negotiations that are going on simultaneously. Uh, using the car example, you're going to buy a car, so you have a negotiation with the car dealer, but you also have a negotiation with yourself. And what a lot of people do is they lose the external negotiation, they lose the negotiation with the car dealer because they have already lost the negotiation with themselves, with himself. They feel, I have no power, I don't know what I'm doing, uh, the car dealer, uh, he's, you know, he's more knowledgeable, um, he intimidates me. So you go, you walk in, you've already lost, right?

So how do they work on that internal? What do you do? What's, you know, what's your secret? Preparation.

Homework. Homework. Preparation. Understanding the rules of negotiating. Read my book. Learn what, you know, learn how to prepare. Learn the different strategies. Learn what the different tactics are so that you want— so when the, when the dealer pulls a tactic on you, you recognize it and you say, oh, I know what that is. That was, uh, that was page 93 in Ed's book. There it is. You know, I know what that is. So it's all about being prepared.

Right. And in your preparation, I'm just curious, because I will speak about this myself, when you say prepare, do you also ever tell someone to kind of practice or role play amongst themselves when it comes to—

Yes, I do.

Especially in the workplace, in the workplace with negotiation.

Absolutely. When I conduct my seminars. The seminars are always based around role plays because it's important to do it, to try it. So, you know, you can have your friend pretend to be the car dealer and role play it and see, you know, it's a great way to, to prepare, right?

Right. And it could be, you know, depending upon who you use, it could be a very strong opportunity for you to practice you know, all the different things that people will learn out of your book, Negotiation Boot Camp. Awesome.

Well, there's, there's another way to prepare also, and that is by looking for situations in your daily life where you can practice. For example, you go into the supermarket, you're going to buy some flowers. Let's say, and you look at the flowers and they look like they've been around for a few days. So how about saying to the— as you're checking out, how about saying to the cashier, hey, you know, these flowers look a little old, uh, how about giving me a discount? You want, you know, $20 for these flowers? I'll give you 10 bucks.

Nice.

How many people do that?

Nice.

How many people do you know that do that? Nobody does that.

Very few.

Yeah, but there's— it doesn't cost anything, you know. So somebody behind you will think you look stupid. Who cares? You know, you don't care. It's a way of practicing. They're all— uh, when you go to the doctor, um, I've negotiated with my doctor. I've negotiated with my dentist. Uh, you can negotiate with your lawyer, with your accountant. I mean, there are all kinds of opportunities. And of course, in department stores, you go into a department store, um, I've been on television. I was on Fox News, uh, they took me to some department stores and shopping malls where I went around and they had somebody with a hidden camera and they filmed me as I would negotiate for all these various items. And it's amazing, you know, in a course of a couple of hours, I got thousands of dollars worth of discounts.

Yeah, well, I bet you our listeners, the women, know, you know, kind of relate and don't even see that their department store haggling is actually negotiating. And if they just use that same approach to everything else, you know, that they want, that they are actually negotiating.

Of course it's negotiating. Haggling is just kind of a pejorative term for negotiating, right?

Right, right. Because, you know, the women that are listening, you know, that they use that jargon because it doesn't— it seems kind of less, um, I don't know, that's formal or whatnot. But you, you said something that, um, of course just went right out of my head, but it was really— but I really liked what you said. And, um, oh shoot, I'll think about it as we're talking.

You have a hole in your head?

I do, I do, because I had two thoughts going on at the same time.

You need a little glue, put it on the hole.

But it'll come back to me, it'll come back to me. All right, well, okay, so when it comes to looking at all the situations in your life and even using those as opportunities to practice and/or even role play, and that now they're really prepared. They actually— a lot of people will kind of all then kind of stop listening and they're all in their head. Do you find that, that they're all in their head when they actually get into the negotiation? And if so, what do you do to kind of keep them out of their head so they can—

Well, I want to teach you something that I do. I always like to make sure that I know what people are talking about. And I think that we very— all, all of us, we make assumptions that we know what someone is talking about. And if I have any doubt about what someone is saying to me, I will ask them about it. And I'm going to do that right now. I'm not sure what it is exactly that you're asking me when you say, are people in their head? What do you mean by that?

What I mean by that is simply they're so consumed. They've done their preparation. They've laid out, you know, on a piece of paper kind of what their goal and their outcome is and what their walkaway point is. And, you know, they have all their, you know, statistics and research, and they go in and they sit down, and the next thing you know, they're so in their head about accomplishing their objective that they're then not listening to the other person to really understand whether or not their questions or their negotiation tactics are being heard and effective?

Okay, there's two things you can do there. The first thing is you got to work on your listening skills. And this is one of the big things that I emphasize in my seminars is you have to learn how to be a good listener. And that means letting the other person do most of the talking. I have what I call the 70/30 rule, that you listen 70% of the time and you talk only 30% of the time, which is the opposite of what most people do. So we have to learn to listen. The second thing is because you're in the negotiation, it may become frenetic and anxiety-producing. You have the option. Of putting off a decision. You don't have to make a decision right there. You can say, well, uh, I need to think about this. Let's get back together tomorrow and talk about this some more. You know, you don't, you don't have to force that decision right then and there.

Ah, that's a very good point. I like that.

Oh, it's an incredibly good point because people, uh, shoot themselves in the foot very often by assuming that they have to make a decision. Oh God, oh, I have to, I have to decide You don't have to decide. Again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier. You have the power. You have the power to say yes or no. You have the power to say today or tomorrow or next week or never.

Right, right, right.

But if you are aware that you are the kind of person that gets frazzled during a negotiation and you can't quite see things objectively then you need to back away and come back later. This goes on in, you know, this is multi-billion-dollar negotiations. It's the same thing. It's called a caucus. These people are in a room, there's 12 people in a room, they're having this huge negotiation, and, and, uh, somebody says, you know, we got to take a break here, we got to take a caucus. So they break for 2 hours, and each, you know, each side retires to their corner, and they discuss it, and they know, then they get back, and, and then they're able to look at what's going on more objectively. Hmm, I agree with you.

No, that was good.

Yeah, yeah, it's very important to know that, to know that you have the ability to— I want to think about it, I'll see you tomorrow.

Right, right. And that can, that can go across the gamut with anything. Right? It doesn't have to be those mega-million-dollar, you know, deals. It could be buying that car or, you know, or negotiating or buying those flowers. They'll be dead tomorrow, but then you'll get an even better price. Yeah, right, right. Oh, very cool. And are those the two crucial elements you talk about when it comes to effective listening?

Well, the two crucial elements are number one, to let the other person do most of the talking, and the second one is to ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions are questions that can't be answered with a simple yes or no. In other words, they're questions that require the other person to give you a lengthy answer because your objective is to get them to talk. So if you're dealing with somebody that doesn't want to talk, you ask a question. That's why I say be the interviewer, not the interviewee. So if you're applying for a job, you want to ask, you know, what exactly are you looking for in the person to fill this job? Get them to start talking. And the more they talk, the more they're going to tell you what their needs are. And what their objectives are and what their weaknesses are. Yep.

Yeah. And they're going to like you.

They're going to like you. People, we like people who listen to us. You know, this is an interesting thing in human psychology. We like people who listen. And this gets into, uh, we want to— you had asked me earlier about win-win negotiating. I think we should probably spend a couple of minutes on that before we finish. And this is the key to having a win-win negotiation is to listen to the other person and thereby create trust. Because in order to have a win-win, we have to trust each other. And the way you develop trust is by listening and letting the other person know that you care about them. And the way you know they know you care about them is because you're listening to them. So that's one of the keys to win-win negotiating. The second key is to overcome your own negative emotions. In other words, we get into a negotiation and the other person is rude. How many times have you been with someone that's rude and you say, "Oh, the hell with them. I'm not going to deal with them. They're rude." Well, instead of doing that, you want to say to yourself, "Wait a minute. Why are they being rude? Let me put myself in their shoes for a minute and figure out what it is that they're thinking. And once you do that, you have a whole different attitude, and you start treating them like a partner instead of treating them like an adversary, an enemy. So that's one of the keys, is to treat the other person like a partner. So you treat them like a partner, you develop trust by listening. And then the third key is you sit down with the other person and you say, let's figure out a way we can solve this problem together. And you come up with a whole bunch of different ideas. What if we did it this way? What if we did it that way? And, and the result is you'll have an agreement that both parties have some stake in. And when people have a stake in the agreement, they will abide by the agreement. So that's, that's how you develop a win-win relationship.

Okay, great. Okay, so listen, overcome your negative emotions. I want to expand—

treat the other person like a partner. Treat the other person like a partner, not an enemy. That may involve, and probably will involve, overcoming your own negative emotions and reactions, right?

And then, and Yes. Yeah, then I'm kind of stuck on— then you said the third one is let's find a solution together, gain an agreement.

Well, actually, in the order that I have them, the first one is treat the other person like a partner. The second one is develop trust by listening. Okay. And the third one is exploring options for mutual satisfaction. In other words, how can we resolve this so your needs get met and my needs get met?

Exploring options. So whether it is—

No, whether it is what?

Yeah, exploring options for mutual satisfaction. I'm trying to link it back to our conversations about whether it's negotiating with a client or with a, you know, for a job.

Now, if it's for a job, clearly you want to have your needs met, but you also, you need to give the employer the sense that their needs are being met. That's why it's so important to get them to talk and to determine what their real needs are. What are they looking for?

Right.

What kind of skills are they looking for? What type of person are they looking for? And, and if you find a match and you can say, well, here, here's how I, you know, I fulfill those, those, those qualities. Now, now you, you're on the same page. But it all comes down to listening, paying attention, and trying to understand where they're coming from. Awesome. This is not, this is not rocket science. It's not rocket science. It's basic human psychology, right?

And it's really communication, wouldn't you say? It's just communicating and kind of having—

negotiation is a form of communicating, right? Communicating, communicating is, is we're talking to each other. That's communicating. But here's my definition of negotiation. Negotiation is the process of overcoming obstacles obstacles in order to reach agreement. And the obstacles are your position and my position. We have different positions. How do we reach agreement? You want to have dinner tonight, Bernadette? Where do you want to go? What do you want to have for dinner? Oh, I want to have Italian food. Oh, well, I want to have Chinese food. How do we— we have obstacles here that are different. How do we resolve that so we can reach agreement? That's negotiation.

Gosh, it makes it sound so simple, and yet so many— I have to admit, I've kind of worked my way through this myself, and sometimes I get caught, and other times— most of the time I do feel what you're expressing. So I love it, and I hope our listeners are really appreciating that whole comment that he made from the very beginning. That is all about owning your power and realizing your position in the negotiation and creating a win-win for all parties. Ed, before we wrap up, what are— what one or two big tips or pieces of advice would you have for individuals when it comes to negotiating?

Is that what we just talked about?

I wasn't sure if we didn't— if there was something that, you know, before we wrapped up that you wanted to make sure you got in. If we got everything in—

No, I think we got the basics. You know, you just said something very important, that it is basically very simple. I had a lot of professors in college that would take a simple concept and make it so confusing that nobody knew what the hell they were talking about. And my objective as a person that teaches people how to negotiate, my objective is to make it seem simple. So if you feel that what I have presented makes it look simple, then I've succeeded because it really is— it's all about following a few basic concepts. You know, basic concepts: aim high, expect to do well, do your homework, listen. Yeah, don't be afraid to walk out. Don't be afraid. Be prepared to walk out. Uh, these are basic, they're very simple concepts. It's not, it's not about tricks. Negotiation is not about tricks. It's about your attitude when you walk in. When you walk into Bloomingdale's and you're going to buy a dress, what's your attitude about it? Your attitude has to be One of confidence that, hey, you know, it's my decision, it's my money, I'm in charge, and I'm going to make good decisions. I'm going to decide what I buy, not the salesperson. Attitude.

Wait, attitude, everyone. Attitude, attitude. Ed, I want to thank you so much for being part of the program. This has been awesome. This really has been. And I want— and so thank you so much.

My pleasure.

I want to remind everyone, please go to Brodo— I'm sorry, brodo.com. Check out his book Negotiation Boot Camp. Look at his articles. He's got tons of resources if you even question whether or not, you know, you're confident in your whole negotiation approach. And be sure to check out just the resources he has and LinkedIn with him, Facebook with him, Twitter with him. And it's all at Ed Burdough. You can't miss him, quite honestly. You can even just Google negotiation boot camp and Ed is all over the place. So I want to thank him very much for being part of the program.

Thank you for letting me be your guest.

Absolutely. Anytime. And I want to remind everyone in our last minute or so, next week, Ask Bernadette. Send questions, stories, challenges you might be having. Post them on Facebook or Twitter. If you have questions as a result of listening listening to this after we went live, then please be sure to reach out to Ed directly at ed@berdow.com or through his Facebook or Twitter, and be sure to get your questions, stories, or challenges around negotiation addressed from the expert, Ed. And then, of course, if you have anything else you want to ask about, or even if you should throw it out there for our Ask Bernadette episode next week, I'll make sure I get it to him., and/or if you have any other questions, stories, or challenges, be sure to post them on Facebook or Twitter. Deborah and the team is out there waiting for them, and we'll have a deep discussion next week on a number of career and business questions. And then, of course, Sylvia Lafair comes up, Kathy Vath, Abby Vega. They all make for a great April, and I so look forward to sharing them with you.

You.

For everybody here in the Shedding the Bits community, we want to thank our guest Ed and yourselves for joining us this week, and we'll look forward to having you right back here next Tuesday for another episode of Shedding the Bits Radio. Thanks everyone!

Thank you for listening to Shedding the Bitch Radio with Bernadette Boas. Join Bernadette every Tuesday at noon Eastern as she helps you shift your bitches to riches. And the dialogue is always going on at sheddingthebitch.com. See you next week.