What is Equity: How to Build Fair and Thriving Teams

Do you know the truth about equity and how it not only impacts your team and business, but your own credibility and standing as a leader? Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bench, the podcast where bold ideas meet real-world leadership. I'm Bernadette Boas, and this episode dives deep into the truth about equity with guest Celeste Warren, executive coach, author, and globally recognized thought leader on diversity and inclusion. In this powerful conversation, Celeste unpacks what equity truly means beyond the buzzwords and tackles the myths that hold leaders back. You'll discover why understanding equity isn't just the right thing to do, it's the smart thing to do for stronger leadership, better management, and thriving organizations. And exciting news. Celeste has launched her second book, The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn't, and Why Everyone Wins When We Get It Right. Grab your copy at crwdiversity.com and learn more about Celeste and the work that she does right there on her website. And when you stay with us, she has a special opportunity for our viewers and listeners to expand their understanding and their knowledge on the truth about equity.

Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms today's managers into tomorrow's powerhouse leaders. Your host, Bernadette Boas, executive coach and author, brings you into a world where the corporate grind meets personal growth and success in each and every episode. Let's do this. Celeste, how are you?

Welcome, welcome, welcome. Well, I'm well, very well, and thank you for this invitation.

Oh, absolutely. Well, I think it's really important for us, especially nowadays, to be having a conversation in regards to equity. And I think every one of our listeners and viewers and those that will find the show as a result of this conversation, it's imperative that they really pay attention to what is actually happening in the workplace. For their employees, as well as the leadership team and the decisions that are being made. But before we get into that conversation, viewers and listeners, to get to know our guests. So could you share a little bit about Celeste?

Yeah. Celeste is— I'm from a very small steel mill town in Western Pennsylvania. Grew up a Steelers fan, for those of you that follow football. But I, I grew up in a town where my father was the first Black teacher and first Black principle. And so I grew up with a first row seat of equity and diversity and inclusion and affirmative action and all of those things. Because at the dinner table, at the end of the day, when my mother would ask my father, how was your day? We would hear about his struggles, his challenges, but not just those, but also how he overcame them and what he did to overcome a lot of those barriers and obstacles that got in the way sometimes. And, and, and so I learned firsthand as a child, it was ingrained in me, the importance of an inclusive environment, the importance of equity, and the importance of diversity.

And, you know, that's a powerful segue, especially from someone who's been there and done that from the You know, ground up, literally from, from childhood up. Because there's a lot of misconceptions about what it all is, and there's a lot of misinformation, I will say, that some are using as narrative to confuse individuals around exactly what it is. And without getting into the whole political juggernaut, we do need, we'll, we will have to talk. To some degree in regards to that. Could you help us first to understand when you talk about the truth of equity, what is equity from your perspective?

Yeah, I use the analogy— there's an illustration that Deloitte created where you have 3 pictures. In the first picture, there's individuals, 3 individuals that are standing on one rock. And they're in front of a fence. The person to the right, even with that one rock, can't see over the fence. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence. And then you get into the middle illustration and the person on the right has been given two additional rocks and they can see over the fence. Now the person in the middle has been given an additional rock and they can see over the fence. The person that was standing on one rock in both of the illustrations. Right now, he's looking to his right and saying, well, that person has 3 rocks and that person has 2 rocks and I still have one. You know, that's not fair. That's not equitable. That's not equal. What, you know, what's going on? And in my analogy, those rocks are acts of equity that are put in place to so those individuals can see over the fence. And the fence represents the longer-term, what I call isms, racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, all of those things that they didn't happen overnight and it's gonna take longer-term strategies to dismantle them out of the institutions, organizations, et cetera. And so what we need to do is we need to do a good job in, Yes, we have to put those acts of equity in place, but we also have to tear down the fence as well, do the longer-term, harder work. And then we also have to go to that individual who was standing on one rock in both illustrations and say, explain to him that that fence is there and how that manifests itself in the organization, in society, to his colleagues on the right, how that that turns into various different behaviors in the workplace and what that looks like to those individuals. We have to explain that to the individual, give them resources so they can understand it, and then not just educate them, but get them to be active allies because we cannot do this work on our own. Everyone has a role that they have to play. And so we need them to get in the boat, grab an oar, and row with us upstream so we can We get to that third illustration where we don't need any more rocks. The fence is torn down and everyone can see the beautiful mountains in front of them. And everyone wins because even the individual that was standing on one rock, he realizes that with the fence torn down, he can not only see the tops of the mountains, but he can see all of the mountains, the trees, everything, the animals running around in the forest. Right. So That's an example of how I like to explain the difference between the truth about equity, what it is, and then how everyone wins when we get it right.

Absolutely. Now, could we also insert, using the analogy obviously that you gave on the person in the boat, could we actually say if the person on that one rock was able to provide and help with those other rocks in order to lift up those individuals so they could see over the fence. Would that be appropriate?

Yeah, we need everyone to do their part. And that's what I mean by getting in the boat and rowing. It's like, it's, it's, we need them to do, help us with a lot of different things, not just the acts of equity, but that harder work of tearing down that fence. Because that's decades and in some cases centuries of inequities that have just been institutionalized. And so yes, we absolutely need them to help us with the Acts of Equity. That's a short-term, midterm strategy. And then the longer-term strategy as well and whatever they can do. 'Cause many of the individuals that were standing on the one rock, a lot of them were in positions of power where they can really, really make a difference.

Right, exactly. Now, if someone was, is sitting there saying, okay, so what are these acts of equity? What could I be doing? What are those things I should be paying attention to? What would those be?

Well, I like to really make it really pragmatic for the readers and the listeners. If you're a people manager, and you have 5, 10 people on your team, an act of equity, and a lot of people don't realize this, they think it's some grandiose thing, but an act of equity, equity is about meeting people where they are with all of their differences, 'cause differences, diversity is differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. But an act of equity, equity in action would be, I'm a manager and I have 5 or 10 people on my team. Each of them is extremely different. They have different skills, different capabilities, different backgrounds, different life experiences, different cultures. And so I need to make sure that I understand all of those aspects in each individual on my team, and then have my discussions with them to say, okay, what is it that you need to help you to get to a level of performance that elevates the whole team? And then also from a career standpoint, what do you need to reach your career aspiration? And then working with my team members, because everyone's going to need something different. And so meeting people where they are, giving them what they need, blowing away obstacles and barriers that are in their way from them being able to be, you know, top performers, better performers, having access to a bunch of different opportunities that are available. Making sure that I know those obstacles and barriers and I'm doing what I need to do to move those out of the way so everyone can be successful. That's acts of equity. That is really from a pragmatic standpoint what someone who's a people manager or a leader can do. And even someone who is not a people manager, you have a span of influence. Everyone has a span of influence. You know, remember, you know, when you were working and the management or leadership would say, "Oh, we're going to do such and such." And, you know, a colleague would turn to you and say, "Bernadette, really? I mean, what do you think about all of this? I mean, is this really something we should do?" Because you have a level of trust with your colleagues, you have a level of respect with your colleagues, and they trust in what you say, sometimes even more than their manager or their leader. Right. And so everyone has a span of influence and they can influence their colleague by, you know, hey, let's, hey, I'm going to send an article out on diversity, on equity, on inclusion, and just read it. And then we're going to get together, bring our lunches, go into a conference room, and we're going to talk about it. And then, and just see how it applies to us every day in, in, you know, our workplaces. That's another thing that you can do to educate the people around you.

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, it's, you know, almost like everybody is an, is a leader individually, or even if you're a people manager, we're all leaders, especially if we do have influence. Yes. And we should definitely leverage that to help everyone rise. Now, let me ask you something. So pragmatically, That all sounds great. Except I can imagine our viewers and listeners gasping for air because they're like, how am I supposed to get that done when I have piles and piles and piles of work on my desk? How am I supposed to sit down and get that type of, you know, assessment type of conversation done? What would you say to them?

Well, the first thing I would say is, as a people manager, you're, you're required. I don't know any manager or leader who isn't, but you're required to build your team. And you build your team through a lot of different ways, meeting with, but one of them is meeting with them one-on-one on a regular cadence. And statistics, research surveys have shown that The more times that a leader has met with their team member one-on-one, the better the performance of the team. And that means that you're establishing that trust. You're establishing a sense of respect and dignity for your team. And when managers do that, when they meet with their teams on a regular cadence, whether that's once a month, once a week, once every two weeks, But you have to be able to do that. That's the number one responsibility of a people manager, the number one responsibility. You're working through your team and trying to uplift your team so they can get to a level of performance that the organization, so the organization can succeed. That's your number one responsibility. You're not, you know, a lot of us are player coaches. We get that, you know, that in today's workforce with reductions happening and more workload on people, but you're still, if you're a people manager, your number one role is to optimize the performance of your team. And that's one of the ways that you do it. Amen.

Amen.

Woo!

Woo!

Woo!

Woo!

Woo! I'm going to put that on repeat.

Yeah.

So let me ask you something. Who has the narrative and, you know, and the dismantling in a lot of ways of DEI type of initiatives and programs in companies, in academia. How has, how has that interrupted equity, you know, building equity within an organization?

Yeah, I think that what has happened, this anti-diversity, equity, inclusion rhetoric, it has cause people to put misinformation out there, to strategically and purposely put disinformation out there on what equity really is and what it isn't. And there's a lot of myths that surround it. And the, the main thing that we've gotta do is understand what it is, as I just explained, and then what it isn't. It's not about preferential treatment of one group over another, because again, in the analogy, The rocks were given to the individuals on the right so they could see over the fence. Nothing was taken away from the first individual. They could still see over the fence. We didn't take the rock away from him. So it's not about preferential treatment of one group over another. It's about giving people equal access to opportunity. And then the second thing is, oh, well, if you are hiring a woman or a person with a disability or someone of the LGBTQ+ community or a person of color, you're lowering the standards that are required in the role. And that could be so far from the truth because, you know, when you look at a role, there's skills, capabilities, experience that are required for the role. And the people who could make up good candidates for that role come in a variety of different sizes and shapes and identities. And it, it's, it's something that we have to make sure that we are resourcing in appropriate way and fishing from different ponds to get that level of talent into the organization. Right. Another thing too is people don't understand that it's good business. It's Business 101 because we need, in order for us to understand and be able to be successful as a business, we have to understand our customer base. And our customers are extremely diverse around the world, extremely. And so in order to understand how your product or your service is going to be of use to your customers, you have to understand them. You have to understand how it's going to be useful or why they're not using it. And what are the reasons? What are some of those obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way of your service or your, your product? Product being of good use to your customers. And you gotta understand what's getting in the way. And sometimes it's not about the dollar signs, but it's about some of the economic or social conditions as well. So those are things that you have to consider. It's not about preferential treatment with one group over another. It's not about lowering the standard of performance, and it is good business sense.

Well, and I think to the good business sense, you know, you could just turn on your phone or your laptop and see the hit that many companies have taken as a result of them, you know, doing away with their DEI programs and initiatives. And they've taken a significant hit, not only to their, you know, revenue and profit, which is extremely important, but their overall brand. So when you say it's good business, what would you say are the 3 good business reasons why really having a focus on equity is good for a team leader, let alone the company as a whole?

Yeah, for the organization, I would say, you know, there's a war on talent out there. And so in order to be able to get candidates into your organization, especially in this Generation Z, they more so than Generation Y, they want to go to an organization that has the same ideals and beliefs that they do. And so if you are one that is rolling back your diversity, equity, and inclusion strategies, and, and a lot of this, this new generation, this generation actually that's in the workplace, 'cause they're graduating from college, They're in the labor market. They're not gonna choose your organization to go to. So also too, that labor market is, when it comes to corporations, is a little bit smaller now because kids coming outta college or, or coming outta high school are opting not to go to college. They're saying, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, or I'm gonna go into the trades, or I'm gonna do something else and saying, you know, there are, there's another path for me. So the labor market with this new generation is even smaller and smaller for a lot of the corporations that are look— that need certain specific skill set.

Right.

So that's one reason why you need to do it because of the war on talent. The second thing is you lose the credibility of your employee, and that is something that takes a long time to get back. And so you need to make sure that your employees, they're not job hugging. We've seen that phrase that's come out, come out recently, but they truly want to be in the organization. They're engaged. They feel empowered. They feel a sense of value and belonging. Because if they don't, and if they just retire in place and they're not really productive, you're losing a lot, a lot of productivity, and that equates to dollars and revenue as well. So you want to do it for your workforce, for your shareholders as well. We've seen countless stories, countless stories about shareholders voting down anti-diversity, equity, inclusion proposals and stockholders at these shareholder meetings. It's happening company after company after company. And so the shareholders believe in the importance and they know how important it is to the organization. So that's something else too that I think that we need to make sure that we're understanding. And I talked also about how important it is for the customers.

Since you mentioned that it's a kind of a new term that's been rolling out there, let's make sure everyone is on board with what that is. So could you explain job hugging?

Yeah, it's something that just came out. You know, a few years back we heard the term quiet quitting, and it really, it's the same thing. With the economy being the way it is, a lot of folks that are working in roles, they're saying, you know what, I don't I don't want to take the chance on going out and trying to find another job in this labor market in the United States especially. And so they're basically holding on to their jobs and hugging them. And even if it's not a job that they really like, that they're feeling fulfilled, they're still staying in the role. And we all know that the indicator of whether someone really, really is feels empowered in their role, feels, has a sense of belonging. I like to call it the Sunday afternoon blues. How do you feel on Sunday afternoon knowing that Monday's coming up? Do you feel like, I can't, you know, I feel great about my job, I feel good about going into work, I'm blessed to have this opportunity, I'm learning a lot? Or do you feel completely and totally depressed that you have to go in on Monday for the whole week. That gives you an all— that's an indicator of the culture of your organization and how your workforce feel. And if they feel that way where they feel depressed on Sunday, you see it in a lot of different statistics. You see it in, you know, engagement scores and surveys. You see it in absenteeism. You see it in turnover. You see it in a lot of different indicators. But it's just, it's, it's a lack of productivity of your workforce. And that's opportunity loss when it comes to optimizing performance of your organization.

Let alone it is, it takes a hit to innovation, creativity, because demotivated individuals are not going to give you any good ideas and they're not going to think outside the box. So Productivity is a big factor, but you know, you're also taking a major hit to innovation and creativity.

Wouldn't you agree? Oh, absolutely. That discretionary effort, the— I call it the opportunity cost, but it's basically saying that because you don't give your employees that sense of belonging, that sense of value, you are losing innovation, creativity, and discretionary efforts because that is basically Your, your, your performance went like this, but it could have gone like this with discretionary effort of your employees.

And I'll speak to, from a customer's viewpoint, because I have to tell you, I'm saving a lot of money these days because I chose to no longer, you know, shop at, at companies or stores that have pulled back on their DEI initiatives. And because I don't want to. Do business with them in any way, shape, or form professionally or personally. And so are there other things from a customer point of view that companies need to be thinking about?

I think that's the big thing. I mean, companies rise and fall by their profits and their, their share, and that's the main thing. People will, will show you how they feel about your organization through their pocketbooks, through their wallets. And that's the best thing that you can do. That money talks. It talks.

Absolutely. So when, again, when it comes to equity, let's move to a more sensitive subject when it went around equity, and that is pay and compensation. What are you seeing out there? These days at, when it comes to, because from research that I did, about 50 states have equal pay laws. And yet there's tremendous amount keeping the lawyers very busy in violations of those laws that are in place. What are your observations that you're seeing out there?

Yeah, there's still, still unfortunately pay equity gaps. And it's, and it is very, very unfortunate because it's something that can be, I will say, easily remedied. And what I mean by that is doing the analysis, looking at your workforce and looking at the gaps between similar roles and looking at the people that are in those roles, look in and taking into account length of time they're in the role, their tenure, and all of that stuff. And doing the analysis, doing pay equity analyses, so you can understand where the gaps are, where the pain points are in your organization, in your workforce. And then don't just do the analysis, but really look and, and, and say, okay, well, what do we need to be doing? And putting your money where your mouth is and closing those gaps in inequitable practices. And then not just putting the money in, because you don't wanna throw good money after bad, but you have to put in various different managerial training, helping talent acquisition leaders, compensation leaders. You have to look at the whole ecosystem surrounding pay equity and make sure that you put the programs, the policies, and the practices in place that don't allow the gaps to continue to grow.

And a lot of people will say that those type of decisions are very conscious decisions, but where does unconscious bias still play a role?

Oh gosh, yeah, it still plays a role. You know, even in 2025, there are managers, leaders that they look at candidates and, you know, their bias Who's the breadwinner? You know, the male's the breadwinner. This, even though we know statistics show that women, there's so many single mom family homes out there, but the bias comes in in a lot of different ways. Like, oh, well, I need to hire this, the man, because they're the breadwinner of the family and they need the job. They need the job. Or women, sometimes we don't negotiate when we're, when we're when we're being hired. We don't negotiate for our salary where, you know, others might, might do that more readily. We just accept the salary that's given to us. And so there are a lot of different things that happen that we, we need to make sure that we are paying attention to. So when we're protecting the front gates, if you will, as, as people are coming in the organization.

So it's a matter of asking a lot of questions of ourselves, but of each other. When it comes to the hiring or the promoting or the bonusing, you know, to ensure that there isn't, you know, anything that is artificially being, you know, created to prevent that equity.

Yeah, absolutely. Because we are all human. We all have biases. You know, that is just, you know, that's life. We all have biases. But when we, when those biases start to creep in, in how we make decisions on people, the movement of people within an organization's hiring, promotions, firing and termination, special projects, all of that, performance assessment, all of that equates to where someone's salary is, their total salary, their total compensation. And so we can't let our unconscious biases, or in some cases, conscious biases, we have to be in touch with them, and we can't let them seep into the decisions that we're making in the workplace.

With all that said, you have a book that you recently published, The Truth About Equity: What It Really Is, What It Isn't, and Why Everyone Wins When We Get It Right. So share with us a little bit about that.

Yeah, I wrote that book It was kind of like therapy. Because I was writing, because I understand, I understand. Because, you know, all of these things were happening, the anti-DEI rhetoric, the reversal of Roe v. Wade, the decision around student admissions and not being able to use race as one of the criteria. All of these different things were happening over the last 3 or so years, even after what happened in 2020 and the solidarity around inclusion and diversity and equity and all the things that happened there with the murder of George Floyd and all of those things. And then just a few years later, we see all of this stuff starting to happen where the pendulum starts swinging. We know historically that that happens a lot, but, but I wanted to write this book because I wanted there to be a a sane voice in the wilderness as to what equity truly is and to help people to have meaningful, intelligent conversations around it. So when they're talking in their neighborhoods or at the PTA meetings or at church or wherever, they can have a productive dialogue around what it is, understanding what it is and understanding why it's important. And so for me, it was wanting to really get out there and make sure that there was a voice of reason out there around what it truly is. Yeah.

Awesome. Awesome. And I don't often do this, but I, but I think this subject is so important. You have a special opportunity for some of our listeners and viewers, both in the States and over in the UK. Share that with, with the, with everyone so we can make sure that we can spread the colors.

Right now, my book, we just launched the Audible version. And so I am running a special, a special, I guess you could say program where I am giving 25 vouchers, free vouchers for a free audible version of the book to the United States and 25 free vouchers for folks in the UK. And so all you have to do in order to get the voucher is to go to my website, www.drwdiversity.com, and fill out the contact information. Takes you about 2 minutes, and I will send you a code for getting a free voucher of the audi— audible book. We're right here. Woo-hoo!

And that's crwdiversity.com.

That's it.

Spread the truth about equity because we all need to ensure that we're doing our part. As she mentioned, individual contributor, team leader, it doesn't matter. We can all influence how equity is embedded into our organizations, into our teams, and even into our lives, right, Celeste?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

This has been fantastic. Thank you very much. But before you leave, is there one tip, one thing that you would have our viewers and listeners taking action on as they, you know, wrap up watching or listening to this episode that to make a difference when they go back to their offices?

Yeah, you know, I often get accused of, Celeste, you're trying to boil the ocean. And I say, no, I don't want you to boil the ocean. I want you to just boil 2 or 3 people around you and just have a conversation with them, have a dialogue with them and learn their perspectives. Let them, you know, hear your perspectives and come to just an engagement. And because if we don't have the conversation, those hard conversations, we're never gonna get to the culture of inclusion as a society within organizations that we need to. We can't all go to our opposite corners and not talk and have the conversation. It might be unpleasant at first, but I tell you what, if we treat people with dignity and respect, we can have those adult productive conversations to bring our communities together.

Thank you so much, Les. That is a fantastic next step. Step for everyone to take. So I appreciate you being so generous with your time and with all the great information that you shared today.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Bernadette, for having me on.

You are very welcome. Here's the truth.

That's that. Celeste was awesome.

What a powerhouse and what a powerhouse episode of tips and strategies and mythbusters around equity, even diversity and inclusion. Such a critical conversation to have with your team members and your management team. What can you do, or what can be done differently when it comes to ensuring equity is part of the foundation of your culture and your organization? Now, feel free to share this episode with your colleagues, with your team members, with your management team, so they can get the truth about what equity actually is, what it isn't, and what you can do about ensuring that it is ingrained within the organization. And at the same time, go to ballifiercoaching.com/podcast and be sure you're following and subscribing to any one of the podcast streaming services and our Shedding the Corporate Bits YouTube channel so you don't miss an episode, or one of our fabulous guests like Celeste. I'll look forward to seeing you for another episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Bye.

Thank you for tuning into today's episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch. Every journey taken together is another step towards unleashing the powerhouse leader within you. Don't miss any of our weekly episodes. Subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. And for those who thrive on visual content, catch us on our Shedding the Bitch YouTube channel. Wanna dive deeper with Bernadette on becoming a powerhouse later, visit balloffirecoaching.com to learn more about how she helps professionals, HR executives, and team leaders elevate overall team performance. You've been listening to Shedding the Corporate Bitch with Bernadette Boas. Until next time, keep shedding, keep growing, and keep leading.