What Young Corporate Women Need to Ignore with SUDESHNA SEN

According to our guest, women are being told that there are fewer women leaders at the top of organizations and even less within STEM and finance, as well that women are no good with money or capable of raising capital. How differently would women act? How differently would you act if you didn't know of these challenges, you didn't hear of these statistics? Our guest, Sudeshna Sen, economist and senior leader in the finance industry, is determined to help you, whether you're an early stage or mid-career professional, what you need to know and believe within yourself about how an abundant mindset will lead you to the riches that you deserve in your work and life. Oh, and for our seasoned professionals, it is never too late to know what you could do to transform your financial, personal, and professional life. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast that transforms female corporate executives into powerhouse leaders by showing them how to shed the challenges and overwhelm, along with any fear, insecurity, self-doubt, and negativity holding them back. I'm your host, Bernadette Boas of Ball of Fire Coaching, bringing you powerhouse discussions each week to share tips, advice, and sometimes tough love so you create the riches in your work and life you deserve. Let's do this. Sudeshna, how are you? Welcome to the program.

I'm great, Bernadette. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Oh, you're so welcome. I am actually, uh, really interested and intrigued on this conversation because one, I love the fact that we're going to be talking to predominantly the young women of the Shedding the Bitch community. And yet at the same time, seasoned professionals that are out there, um, are going to be able to garner some, some great insights and great information, um, during the, uh, discussion. So nobody go anywhere, all right? But before we get into all the kind of the business talk, tell us a little bit about you so we can actually get to know you and relate to you.

Sure. I'm Sudeshna. I was born and raised in India. I'm an economist by training, work in the financial services industry for over a decade now, primarily within tech data. So all of that is my go-to subject, um, and I still have a corporate job, but I also have a venture called The Abundant Psyche where I help people really tune into and earn more money. That's one of my core philosophies that If people earn more money, nothing bad happens to the world. I don't want to say it in so many words, but, you know, in general, as a rule of thumb, if you are on a moral, ethical path of earning money, it's generally good for the world. That's what I believe in. Right, right.

Sure, sure. Now, you had mentioned to me, um, before we got on the call. Um, you have a 3-year-old?

I do, yeah.

Yeah, very sweet, very sweet. So we're going to also get into talking about kind of your own experience, um, both as a corporate executive and an entrepreneur, as a woman, as a woman of color, woman of color moving to London. You're in London, correct?

In London, yes.

And then also having a child and trying to kind of live the corporate world while balancing a, uh, or blending, as I call it, an entrepreneurial world as well, along with a family. So we have a lot to unpack here, but, and ultimately, we also want to talk about, um, kind of some data that you have found that I found very intriguing about how and what, uh, women, especially young women, need to kind of ignore some data that's out there, uh, some myths. We might even call them myths, uh, because it just creates, um, some negativity and limiting beliefs for them. So let's see where we start. First off, being that we just kind of highlighted who you are personally, tell us about your journey. Tell us about how, you know, someone like yourself, uh, successful 10-year corporate career, and then what made you also think about this entrepreneurial venture as well. Sure.

So I spent most of my life wanting to really go after what I wanted to go after, and I was quite goal-oriented and very motivated, some people call me. And when I moved to London, after a couple of years, what I realized was that there was a lot of cultural differences that I had to retrain myself in, and therefore I was probably not running as fast as I was expecting myself to run. Um, and I was in quite a male-dominated industry, so management consulting, finance, technology— you put those three together, I would typically be the only woman in the room many a times, and therefore Sometimes I realized that there were things that I was learning from that one woman that I met on a project 5 months back, 6 months back. Um, and I realized that it was not just me as a woman, there were other people of color, other people who were moving into a new continent, a new industry, who were going through similar challenges. And I started writing about it on my blog. And one thing led to another, and I think the blog sort of grew into, um, how people could find a job that's aligned to them, a career that's aligned to them. And then as I evolved more into who I am, um, so I'm trained in economics, like I said, and spent the entire career in financial services. I started talking a lot more about money And the two actually go quite hand in hand because, I mean, let's be honest here, we all are in our careers hopefully because we want to make money. And I personally believe that a lot of us sort of think that money is this evil thing, that it's not great to be obsessed about money. And look, I, I don't want to say that be obsessed about money, but I think just creating a gap between that negativity that money is bad is not useful. So, right, right, I am going with it.

Yeah, sure. And what, what would you say those cultural differences were that you had to adjust to, especially being a woman, being a young woman, being one of color? What were the cultural differences that slowed down your, your path?

So a few things. I think the first thing is that it sounds interesting that we all speak in English, but our cultural references are not the same. So when I say English person, like, as an English— sorry, so when I say interesting as an Asian person, it means something completely different to how you mean when you say interesting in Britain for sure. I don't know about the US. So, you know, there are these very strange ways of communication that you have to get used to. The other thing I realized was, in the UK at least, a lot of your perceived value comes down to your communication skills, less so on your technical skills. And as I am tuning more into my global audience, this is something that I'm finding as someone who's very technical, I had to sort of relearn how to articulate my technical skills to land the message to senior leadership. And that's what I pay a lot of attention to within my students' community, because ultimately, If you are not landing your message, you have only half done your job.

Right.

Equally, I think as technical folks, we need to realize that unless you are in a Google or a technology company, ultimately you are really a support function. So understanding business, understanding why you are there is quite critical.

Right, right. I love that. Well, first off, okay, so we're leaving our listeners and viewers hanging if we don't ask, what does interesting mean in Asian— Asia?

Um, something that is, that is exciting, something that really gets me curious. That is what we mean when we say exciting Definitely back home in India.

Okay, how about in the UK? How— what does interesting mean to them?

Um, I think interesting means not so good. Oh, that's an interesting way of looking at it, meaning, uh, I probably wouldn't do that.

Oh, okay, fair enough, fair enough. And I would, I would say in the US Um, gosh, it couldn't go both ways. It can go, okay, that's really interesting, I want to dig in a little bit more. But at the same time, I could definitely hear, especially in the South in the state— in the States, I could definitely hear it's almost like bless your soul really isn't a nice compliment. Like bless your heart, you know, when someone says bless your heart in the South, it is not a nice compliment.

All right, I did not realize that.

Yes.

I remember I did bless you at the beginning of our call, and I meant it. In the UK, we would always say that as a sign of, like, comfort.

And, right, you know, well, no, no, no, there's a, there's a bless you, and then there's a bless your heart, which, which is more— yes, uh, yes. So, uh, interesting also can go both those ways too, one of curiosity and one of, like, Really? You know, that's interesting. Uh, yeah, that's it. Okay. All right. That's interesting. That's fascinating.

I'll change up the word.

That's fascinating. Uh, all right. So the other thing that you, that you said in all of that is, um, you know, those, those adjustments and then, and those transitions that you had to make. What do you think was the biggest one? That, you know, you talked about, and I love the idea that communication skills are more valuable than technical skills. I would actually have to attest to that, especially as one— and we're speaking to young women today— especially as, you know, one who is young advances in their career, the technical or tactical, as I like to say, becomes less important than the communication, the leadership type of skills. Uh, so what were you able to do, you know, when it came to improving your communication skills? Is it being bulleted? Is it, uh, putting out the value up front? You know, what was the structural change that you had to make when it came to your communications?

Sure. So from early on in my career within the UK, I was getting feedback that when I was writing emails, I was doing something right because the emails were landing. But when I was communicating, as in verbally communicating, it wasn't landing as well. And I think the reason was because of exactly what you said, the bulleted structure, the rule of 3, the, you know, how do you get to 1, 2, 3 points, the art of storytelling. You also want to think about who you are communicating to because ultimately you are going to lose your audience if you are trying to get down to every technical detail when you are communicating with an exec. But if you start talking about how you would speak to your exec to your technical team, they would be like, this doesn't make any sense. So ultimately, dialing in your communication to your audience is probably quite critical. And then there's this amazing book that I read, which is called The Pyramid Principle, which got me started thinking about communicating to exec folks. And, and The Pyramid Principle is really very simple. If you think about it, it talks about start with the conclusion that you want to drop on the exec, and then if that's not enough, go into the next deeper level. And that's how you, you sort of, if they want to know more, go to one level deeper, one level deeper, one level deeper. So that's how you structure the pyramid.

Nice.

Yeah, and, and that's, that's typically how we would like write slides in management consulting as well. You start with an summary, then you expand on it. You sort of, you know, I'm going into my management consulting communication lessons now, but what they tell you is the titles should tell you the story, the entire story. If you read the titles, that should tell you the story. If you read the details, they can come back to the rest of the slides.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yes. I mean, and I, and it's funny that you should say that because I get that with the title of my podcast here, um, as well as my book, which is the same title, is it tells the story. Like, it, it, you know, in one— in four words, it tells you exactly what it's all about, if they understand what, um, bitch is, because it's not the person, it's our limiting beliefs, which is what I want to get to next. You had mentioned, uh, you know, at the, at the beginning that, um, You know, there's all, you know, there's also this challenge and your business around the abundance psyche obviously speaks to the fact that there's a mindset that also young women coming up, you know, in the ranks, mid-career is another area that you really work on. Uh, and then, you know, of course to our seasoned, uh, executives and professionals that are out there, but share with us kind of where your thought was when it came to needing to put out there something around the abundance psyche, you know, because of the fact that there's so many negative things being put out there that women, especially young women, are, you know, believing.

Yeah, sure. I'll, I'll cover it in 3 to 4 points. The first one that I was coming up against is this statistic that, oh, women are not really good at STEM and finance. There are not enough role models, there are not enough people in senior leadership positions. Therefore, even if I was to go down that route, I'd not be successful, right? So the moment you are told about these statistics, you sort of start in— how do I say— you sort of start believing in these statistics and create this limiting belief around yourself. And I was just looking up earlier, it says that there are only 1.8— sorry, 1.8% lesser women in STEM and finance boards according to LSE Research. And this is 7.56% lower than others. Doesn't mean the others are good, right? Just means that STEM and finance has a dramatically different problem. Yeah, when we look into even more statistics, like, you know, women who are getting venture capital funding, or people who are thinking about their senior leadership careers across industries, not only STEM and finance, we really see very tiny percentages of women. And then when you throw into the mix women of color, or, you know, pregnant mothers. Or, um, I, I know personally from my experience, a lot of my students, when they were expecting, they were not ready to change careers. Or 3 years before they even started trying to conceive, they are limiting their careers because they're afraid they want to have a safe space, right, when the child is there. And I'm— that really surprises me because I think only women do that. I think if you think about men, they would really position their careers and go like, how do I get ahead so that I can provide more safety for my family? Women, on the other hand, would almost create this safety bubble.

Yes.

Because they automatically assume that in a new job it'll be tougher and therefore they won't get as much flexibility and so on. So that's something I definitely find interesting as a statistic. And to be honest, something I wish women just did not know about.

Right, right.

You talked about the abundance mindset. Um, so this is the other thing that I notice amongst others. People, many people would only focus on what I want to do, how do I make more money, right? It's all about me, me, me, me, me. But interestingly enough, money is made when you exchange value and you provide value to the other person. So you want to be providing as much value to the other person so that you can make money, right? It's very counterintuitive, and which is why I started talking about abundance and the fact that you want to think of this entire world as a family. You, you're not like, right, right, about synthesizing. It's about working together, collaboration, and all that.

So, yeah, well, I love that because, um, you know, I was definitely that me, me, me, me, me person for decades, uh, and really didn't consider anybody else other than what's in it for me. How is this going to benefit me? How is it going to get me ahead? How is it going to get me more money? And I love your point about the fact that by— and I'll put it in the, in the words that kind of shifted me was serving others serves me. And when I first heard that, and actually read it also in a passage, um, from, uh, one of the scripture books that I have, when I first read that, I found it to be extremely selfish. I'm like, okay, so I'm just gonna serve others so it serves me. But then I sat with it probably for a couple of years, and I, and I wish I had known you then and had you kind of coaching me then, because I would have gone through it faster. Um, because I did eventually land on what exactly what you said is for me to get what I want and to achieve my goals, I need to help others and serve others to help them achieve their goals. And in that I get more out of it, not even just financially or professionally, but even more so personally from it. Um, and that's then when I realized serving others serves me is not selfish or greedy, um, but it's more what you're talking about when it comes to the abundant.

Yeah, yeah, everything for me changed. Everything serves me. That's, that's beautiful because, um, it's so succinct. And captures the entire message in 4 words.

Right, right. And when I start getting like selfish or I start getting a little bit kind of— I'll call it desperate, but that's something I haven't been in a long time. But when I start getting like, I'm not getting where I want to go, I just repeat that to myself over and over and over again, and it just totally shifts me. Uh, so what do you do and how do you support— you call them students from what I can tell. Um, how do you support your students in taking on this abundance psyche?

So I work with my students within my coaching programs, and, um, I, I have a couple of job search programs that I run. And within that, I obviously go through the usual job search stuff that people want to go through. Like, you know, they want their CV, they want their interviews foolproofed and practiced and so on. And I do all of that because that's what people want. But what they don't realize is that during the interview, they were too focused on themselves. What's my experience like? Book, right? But yeah, sure, people are hiring you for your experience, but actually they are not hiring you for your experience. They are hiring you for what your experience can bring to their company and solve their problems. And therefore, it pays dividends to just understand the problem that the company is facing, the hiring manager is facing, which is why I go through a lot of business in my courses. I go through a lot of psychology and meditation and all of the woo-woo stuff as well as the communication, right? Ultimately, you need both. You need the communication, you need the confidence, you need the commercials. So one cannot function without the other. And once all of that lands, I think people find it really easy to go and crack interviews. So one of my students, I think she'd been trying to get a job for like, um, 7, 8 years, something like that, but she was not really successful. And then after our work together, she started realizing what value she was actually providing in her current organization. A lot of people suffer from this imposter syndrome of, oh, I don't, I'm not even sure what value I'm adding to my current employer. If you are not sure what value you are adding to your current employer, good luck finding another employer who you can add value to, right? So really tuning into who you are, what you are about, and then putting together some communication guardrails around it. And then she was golden. She— I think in the last, um, 3 years she's changed jobs twice, and every time she changed jobs, she's got like 5 to 7 competing offers from— I can't tell you the names of the firms, but if you think about investment banking, they are like the top in the bracket.

Just by switching your approach to really understanding You know that you have to bring value to the company. That's what they're looking for, and therefore put the effort and the time into understanding what their problems are and what value you can bring them. And that's how you're positioning yourself. I would say that that also is very applicable to not just job search, but even as one advances in their career and they're looking for the— those future opportunities within the company that they're already with. They need to kind of, you know, take on that mindset that they're there to serve others, um, and to bring value to, to others, because that'll then help and serve them.

Absolutely. I think it applies to all contexts. I limit it currently to job search, but this applies to business because ultimately business is about serving your customers, and right if I'm not adding value to my customers, good luck to me if I find the next customer, right? Um, similarly in a relationship, in every relationship, right? Right. Ultimately there's an exchange. And yeah, like you said, serving others serves me.

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So with, with that, I want to come back to something that you said earlier about the fact that young women— well, I would say women across generations forever, um, being told that money is a bad thing, being told that they, you know, uh, can't make money, uh, you know, can't raise money. So what have you found with the young women that you work with? What have you found to be their money mindset?

This is also very interesting to me in a cultural context. I think in the West there's more of a— more of an interesting mindset. I'll use the word interesting and keep myself safe. Um, interesting mindset about money. But I think when I think about Asian cultures, typically I don't see them really thinking about money as this evil thing. In fact, um, well, I, I wouldn't call myself a Hindu, like I'm not like a very religious person per se, but I know in the Hindu culture some of our goddesses are, you know, symbols of money. So how can money be bad when you are talking about this, uh, spiritual idol, an idol, yeah, to be representing money, right? So if I talk about it from that context, if I came at it from a very religious spiritual context of the East, I don't think money is that bad. But equally, I do recognize that there are a lot of people who consider, for whatever reason, money has— they have been brought up in societies or family situations which did not support that belief. And that's where I get down to— everything comes down to belief. What made you think that money is bad? And let's work on those beliefs. And suddenly you discover that, okay, there was a separation going on in the family, and one partner treated the other partner really badly. So what you want to be calling bad or, uh, labeling as not so good is probably that treatment, not money. Money was involved, but it was not really the reason for, uh, or it was not bad in itself, right? Because of scarcity you could have, um, gotten people to behave in a certain way. So it's not necessarily the money. Money is a neutral tool, very much like a knife. You can use a knife to cut vegetables or, you know, to other things with it which might not be as pretty, right? So yeah, like, really getting down into the psychology of what's driving that belief, I think, is quite critical.

Yeah. Yes. And, and when you say that, I'm imagining that you're having your coaching and guiding your students to really think about those incidents, incidences in their life. Like, you know, I did the same type of exercise years ago. You know, I'm one of 12 children. My father was from World War II. Uh, he never had a credit card until he was like 75. You know, it was all cash. Uh, and he had this belief that, you know, you have to work hard if you want to, you know, make a— make money and play hard. And so that kind of embedded this idea of like I had to be a workhorse and I had to kill myself to make money. And yet over the years, I slowly kind of looked at that Uh, and again, I wish I had you around. Uh, I looked at that and kind of said, well, wait a minute, you know, money's not a bad thing, and I don't have to work and kill myself to make money. I love what you say about, I recognize that I need to bring value, and if I bring value, then I don't have to worry about, you know, whether or not I'm going to make money. Uh, so, you know, I absolutely love that focus that you have, especially for young women and you're finding that even young women today have some bad ideas of money?

Yeah, I think maybe less so because of the internet and all of the good things that have come with it, along with the not so good things. But hopefully, like, uh, the internet has helped a lot of young men and women do better with their money. But one of the key things that I also find is that We have gotten around to a point of saying, okay, money is not bad, or yeah, we need to save, and so on. But there's also simultaneously this mentality of holding money, which is, oh, now I have it, tomorrow I might not have enough, therefore let, let me save, save, save, save, save, or really work hard and kill myself. And you know, you're sort of fortifying yourself with the money, right? Not realizing that actually the money is a result of you. So if you kill yourself in the process of making money, it doesn't add much value. So, so I think that's a space that not many people are talking at still, and that's, that's almost the next step in the journey, I think. How do you get people to see the value that they offer for themselves, right? And not just create these millions and millions of pounds, put it in some offshore account somewhere, and then what value is it adding? And if it's not adding value, um, I'm not sure how it's increasing in value either, right?

Right, right, right, right. What do you think about What do you think about the phrase, um, you have to spend money to make money?

I think it's an interesting concept. I, I don't completely disagree with it because you do need to have some investment capital. But what I do also recognize is that the initial part of the capital is not necessarily always that much, and you can probably build with just your skills of being you. Like, we all start from zero, so it surely doesn't take more money to, like, spend money to make money if we all start from zero. Well, you could argue that you have invested your money in education and you're reaping the rewards of that in the long run, so I take it, but If you were— oh well, I, I'm very precious about education because I do think that education is fundamentally important and quite a key unlock between people who actually end up making lots of money in the future. But there, there's free education available across most of the world. Today the internet is free. You could argue, well, you need an internet connection, and that costs money. But you know, everything else aside, if someone, I believe, really wants to learn how to make money, they could go and follow someone, listen to everything they have said, go on the path of apprenticeship and earn the first few thousands, and then you can start thinking about, okay, how How do I make my money work for me?

Right.

Get into that perspective of like, I want to earn, uh, more, and therefore I need to have equity. And then you start snowballing from there.

Um, so what is your money quiz? What does your money quiz look at— look like? And she does have a free money quiz that you can take. Um, and you can go to the Abundance psyche.com to do that. But what does that take a look at?

So, um, it will take a look at what your current situation in life is, like whether you are dialed in to be an entrepreneur or an employee, and will tell you where your strengths around money are.

So yeah. Nice. And then what can they do with that? And then would they use that as kind of the next step to even reach out to you and get your support with, with them?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. By all means. Uh, most of the money stuff on my website, on my YouTube, is free. So if you take the quiz, I also send emails about money and finance to my audience. Like I said, most of the money stuff I do is for free. The job search stuff is a bit more advanced and a bit more hands-on, which I, uh, which, which are more paid programs. And in fact, like, if you are someone who's doing the job search, um, currently, uh, drop me a note. I'm doing something through September. So, um, would be curious to hear from you, right?

Awesome. So what's one tip you would leave with our viewers and listeners around just— especially for the young women— around kind of ignoring, you know, the noise, so to speak, that's out there in order for them to really rise up and be successful in their work and life?

Absolutely. I think the one thing I would say is really do— if you didn't know that, what would you do? How would you act differently if you knew that it was not rigged against you? How would you act if you knew that it was rigged in favor of you, right? You still have to do the work. It's not— you probably also have to do a bit more than others. But if you just didn't know this statistic, just imagine that you're— you have your brain washed. How would you act? I would just tune into that.

Thank you, Sudeshna, for this great conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And what a different perspective on it, especially when we are wanting to lift up the young women and the middle, mid-career women, um, that are out there. So thank you so much, Bernadette. You're very welcome. Have a beautiful, beautiful day and a prosperous one too. What a great conversation with Sudeshna. What did you walk away with, um, all around what women have got to not pay attention to, uh, when it comes to what they're capable of or what they're not capable of, especially those young women, those women that are at the beginning of their career or even mid-career. Uh, so she really kind of helped us understand what an abundance psyche is, but she did that by helping us understand what her own journey was being a young woman of color, a young woman of color from a one culture moving into another culture. With a 3-year-old, with a 3-year-old child, and really kind of what her own transition from being this kind of corporate juggernaut to then motherhood. And she used all of that to help us to understand what kind of data and what myths are out there around women, around women in business, women leaders, women and money, women and venture capital. So we don't believe in them. You don't listen and believe and take in that negativity, um, and to ensure that you are shifting yourself into a very positive, abundant mindset, because as we discussed, serving others serves you, and you know, therefore really ensuring that you do kind of look at money as a vehicle to really generate positivity and abundance, not only for yourself but for your, your family, for your community, um, is a good thing. It's not a bad thing. Uh, so she also helped us, um, really understand how the cultural differences For instance, in the UK, as opposed to Asia— she's from Asia, moved to the UK— in the UK, they really value communication skills over technical skills that Asia really values. And so we got into a whole conversation about what that looks like and what influence did that shift and that refocus of what's valuable have on her, you know, being that she's in her early years of both corporate and being an entrepreneurial venturist. So then she also talked about when it came to communication, and we— and I asked her kind of why, why is communication, you know, very valuable? And she talked about just the approach that young and mid-career individuals coming up and really taking on more leadership type of roles from the tactical, technical roles, what they need to be adjusting and shifting toward in order to really be effective in their communications with senior leaders within their own company. Or maybe they are raising capital, or they are, you know, going